Trust, not in Thailand

[Straight8]

I wonder if the OP, his wife and family can sit down with this woman (and her son) and negotiate a fairer settlement? Surely 40 years counts for something with this woman? And it seems that none on the OP's side has behaved too rashly so far?

Just on a side note - I don't live in Thailand (have only ever visited) but this 'face' thing seems so illogical at times. OK I understand his wife loses some by trusting this woman but how come the woman doesn't 'lose face' by attempting ti rip off a supposed friend of 40 years? Surely 'face' also entails being seen as a honourable person in business?

Not a hope in hell unless it equates to a similar amount of gains for the owner.

Guess even a 40 year friendship can be sold in Thailand.

[mikemac]

I recently borrowed $7,000 from my 91 year old Uncle.

He had the good sense to have a Solicitor draw up the contract and made me pay for the Solicitor's time ... $200 an hour.

I'm obviously in the wrong trade ...

I like this uncle of yours, he sounds like a cool dude !

As far as the op goes, he should have known you don't invest money into a rented property. We had a restaurant in Thaphae Rd. Chiang Mai for while, we only bought stuff we could easily take with us when we left.

You hear stories like this all the time zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

And calling the posters on hear dropkicks will not get you anywhere, I have been suspended for less than that.

[CUNJU]

IN my 15 years in LOS I find that the Thais cannot be trusted when money is involved! Been burned a couple a couple of times!!

:-(

[muratremix]

Thai people cannot be trusted because u were stupid to not have a contract.

Is your wife trustworthy,her family/???

I had to sort out a stupid farang a few years ago,are all farangs stupid, i dont think so

Do what romans do in rome. In a country (Thailand) where people buy land without a paper (belong to the state, jungle land) you can't expect everything is done by the book. Even though they had a written contract, it would not prevent them to get what they want from a fellow farang.

Thats why I never invest on sor por kor or nopaper land. You can never trust a Thai period.

[F4UCorsair]

A contract between parties is great to have, but as a lawyer friend says, the contract is only as good as the goodwill of the parties to that contract.

If the person causing the problem isn't a willing party in creating a solution, then you need to go to court. Court action, particularly civil action, can drag on for years, and cost serious money during which time she may not be able to sell the land, but your plants will be

There is possibly an added problem in that you may not have a work permit for what you're doing, and she knows that. An added problem is that her relative is a BiB.

My advice would be to secure an alternative piece of land (lease this time, please) organize the equipment to move in and clear the whole lot out in a day, plants, soil, fencing, and any other improvements. A day when the owner won't be anywhere near the place would be even better.

If the WP issue is real, spite may take over, and you'll be dropped in to the authorities, so that needs consideration on how you may tackle the problem if it arises.

Alternatively, you could just write it off and start again?? How much money is involved?

[Ned]

The OP improved her land and showed her its potential. A 'useless' piece of land suddenly looked like a gold mine.

How could it have ended in any other way?

A farang up the road bought 20 rai , cleaned it up after he had the title safely in his keeping. Even then the seller tried to get more once he saw how good the cleaned up block looked. Hassled him for a long time, including threats of physical violence if he didn't come across with more money.

[F4UCorsair]

Not sure what happened to the rest of my [post # 136.

Para 2 should have read

"but your plants will be...............growing and gaining value during that time. If the case goes against you, she then has established plants worth money."

All a moot point though, because there is no contract.

[Frank James]

Sounds like you had a lovely project going there, that would have benefited many, and you got badly burned. You already know there's nothing you can really do about it. If you are not completely wiped out, perhaps you can buy a plot somewhere close by, and do it again, using the knowledge you gained the first time round. You sound like a good guy. I know you will bounce back, sadder but wiser.

[cpofc]

Of course this is a Thai site and the focus is upon all thinbgs Thai, but I am glad I am Australian. We are so much better than the Thais. We never rip each other off, nor do the dirty on one another.

A good example is that the Law Council in Australia has been calling for urgent changes to Power of Attorney Laws in Australia for a some years now, it is, in fact, one of THE most prolific crimes in Australia today, family members, sons, daughters ripping off their elderly parents - Especially when it comes to property and embezzlement

Or the hidden money market in Australia. Recent statistics reveal estimations that Australians owe at least 6 Billion Dollars to another another (pop: 23 Mil). Family and friends borrowing money from each other that is never paid back and with no intention to do so ever.

Money does bad things to people and the Thais certainly don't have a monopoly on this phenomena.

For every Thai 'horror' story I can go to the farang news sites and read a dozen. But I guess getting ripped off in your own language is alot less sensational.

[pattayadingo]

I found out I couldn't rust my wife (American) after twenty years of marriage.

I think that trumps your neighbours behaviour.

Trust is for suckers.

In the words of the immortal Mulder.

Trust No One.

22 for me.

But i feel we have to have some trust, though my deep trust is now earned and not simply given.

I'll give most people a chance in the first instance but if i am screwed once, you'll never do it to me again.

As for something like the OP..... I'd have wanted paperwork too. That sort of trust takes far too long to earn.

[Kananga]

Of course this is a Thai site and the focus is upon all thinbgs Thai, but I am glad I am Australian. We are so much better than the Thais. We never rip each other off, nor do the dirty on one another.

A good example is that the Law Council in Australia has been calling for urgent changes to Power of Attorney Laws in Australia for a some years now, it is, in fact, one of THE most prolific crimes in Australia today, family members, sons, daughters ripping off their elderly parents - Especially when it comes to property and embezzlement

Or the hidden money market in Australia. Recent statistics reveal estimations that Australians owe at least 6 Billion Dollars to another another (pop: 23 Mil). Family and friends borrowing money from each other that is never paid back and with no intention to do so ever.

Money does bad things to people and the Thais certainly don't have a monopoly on this phenomena.

For every Thai 'horror' story I can go to the farang news sites and read a dozen. But I guess getting ripped off in your own language is alot less sensational.

Criminal behaviour must be genetic after all.

[seajae]

Update: she wants 2 million baht for the land, it is a house block that totals around 900 sq. metres, it is swamp that has been backfilled and still has swamp along the back of it. The local established houses(2 storey) are selling at 2.5 to 3 million baht with established gardens etc so she is dreaming if she thinks we will pay that, we only paid 2.5 million baht for our house new and we have river/lake views(only one row of houses between us and the water), not stuck in the middle of a swamp. Wife is going to chat with her neighbours to see if there is more to this than we are being told then we will see if we can wrangle with her. A lot of our neighbours know the block we are using and when we asked them about the price being asked they all laughed, they think she is crazy. As some have stated there may be more to this, rent was pretty cheap, only 12,000 baht a year, she might want more, will keep updating. This time if she agrees to it we will get a contract drawn up, thats if we dont find something better.

[A1Str8]

Unfortunately since you didnt sign any contract so she would not be able to move you out..it is probably a loss my friend. I suggest you to learn from the mistake and move on. There is not much you can do.

On the other side this kind of low, miserable behavior of that woman who as a human equals my dog is disgusting and every time I hear such stories I have to vomit.

Sent from one of my devices using the internet

[seajae]

A contract between parties is great to have, but as a lawyer friend says, the contract is only as good as the goodwill of the parties to that contract.

If the person causing the problem isn't a willing party in creating a solution, then you need to go to court. Court action, particularly civil action, can drag on for years, and cost serious money during which time she may not be able to sell the land, but your plants will be

There is possibly an added problem in that you may not have a work permit for what you're doing, and she knows that. An added problem is that her relative is a BiB.

My advice would be to secure an alternative piece of land (lease this time, please) organize the equipment to move in and clear the whole lot out in a day, plants, soil, fencing, and any other improvements. A day when the owner won't be anywhere near the place would be even better.

If the WP issue is real, spite may take over, and you'll be dropped in to the authorities, so that needs consideration on how you may tackle the problem if it arises.

Alternatively, you could just write it off and start again?? How much money is involved?

Actually its not all that much, money wise I have spent around 30 to 40 thousand baht setting it up plus the plants, there is a hell of a lot of hours in work in getting the soil up to scratch and keeping the block clear of weeds plus regular feeding, watering and turning over the soil around them. The biggesr problem is the establishment of the trees, they have to be in healthy, full growth modes for me to be able to do my cross pollinations(I am one of only a few world wide that does it and the only one on Thailand), I have also planted out my first lot of succesfully crossed seedlings(9 months for the pods to ripen), moving them now will bugger up the growth plus it will cause the newly crossed varieties that have worked to abort their pods too. There is a lot of work and time in getting the crosses to take so it will cause a lot of problems for me and take at least another 12 months to get to the same place I am in now with them. Dont really know if I want to go through it all again, I am 60 now, starting to get a bit long in the tooth to do all the necessary setting up all over.

[seajae]

Excuse me for being so blunt but:

Reading your post and subsequent replies to other bm's where you consistently imply that your wife and her family mostly are to blame, I am left with the impression that you are not only a fool, but an idiot as well.

BS

where have I blamed my wife and family, you obviously cannot understand english, try reading it when you are not full of piss. The only person I blame is the lady in question and myself for not having a contract. There is no way in hell I would put any blame on my wife and family, they have backed me all the way.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Update: she wants 2 million baht for the land, it is a house block that totals around 900 sq. metres, it is swamp that has been backfilled and still has swamp along the back of it. The local established houses(2 storey) are selling at 2.5 to 3 million baht with established gardens etc so she is dreaming if she thinks we will pay that, we only paid 2.5 million baht for our house new and we have river/lake views(only one row of houses between us and the water), not stuck in the middle of a swamp. Wife is going to chat with her neighbours to see if there is more to this than we are being told then we will see if we can wrangle with her. A lot of our neighbours know the block we are using and when we asked them about the price being asked they all laughed, they think she is crazy. As some have stated there may be more to this, rent was pretty cheap, only 12,000 baht a year, she might want more, will keep updating. This time if she agrees to it we will get a contract drawn up, thats if we dont find something better.

900sm = 220 talang Wah or 1/2 of a Rai.

Normal rental price for agricultural land is about 2000bht per rai per year.

So you were paying 10x the normal rental price, that's not 'pretty cheap', that's a rip-off.

Sadly, I can't believe that your misses didn't know the normal agricultural land rental prices.

Fact is, everyone but you knew you were being scammed on the land rental and nobody said a word.

(I rent out 5 Rai of prime rice paddy in Petchabun for just under 10k a year)

As for the price of building land, different kettle of fish entirely.

About 10-20k per TW, so 220TW with road access could be priced between 2M and 4MBht.

Sounds like the proposed sale price of 2M bht is actually a bit of a bargain.

Edited August 29, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[WonnabeBiker]

What goes around, comes around. My guess is that the greedy snake-in-the-grass landowner doesn't realize that once all your trees are dead, they won't be an asset but a huge liability.

• Can't you remove the top soil and take it to your wife's home?
• Salvage anything even if the trees will soon be dead?
• Remove the fence you paid for...

I'm sorry for you having this experience.

[snake24]

OP is your wife a thai? Yes she must be well is she trustworthy?

[David48]

A contract between parties is great to have, but as a lawyer friend says, the contract is only as good as the goodwill of the parties to that contract.

If the person causing the problem isn't a willing party in creating a solution, then you need to go to court. Court action, particularly civil action, can drag on for years, ..

A really good post and worthy of a second read.

When I did my Business Degree, we did quite a bit on Contracts and thus Contract Law.

"the contract is only as good as the goodwill of the parties to that contract." ...

[David48]

900sm = 220 talang Wah or 1/2 of a Rai.

Normal rental price for agricultural land is about 2000bht per rai per year.

So you were paying 10x the normal rental price, that's not 'pretty cheap', that's a rip-off.

Sadly, I can't believe that your misses didn't know the normal agricultural land rental prices.

Have to say, on this, AnotherOneAmerician knows his stuff.

Thai (Farm) Father rents many ponds here just outside Bangkok.

He pays 10k for a 6 rai holding. the holding is actually worth quite a bit ... but the rental values is based on Agricultural purposes.

He gets a bit of a sweet deal because they are relatives from whom he rents.

[JaiLai]

Update: she wants 2 million baht for the land, it is a house block that totals around 900 sq. metres, it is swamp that has been backfilled and still has swamp along the back of it. The local established houses(2 storey) are selling at 2.5 to 3 million baht with established gardens etc so she is dreaming if she thinks we will pay that, we only paid 2.5 million baht for our house new and we have river/lake views(only one row of houses between us and the water), not stuck in the middle of a swamp. Wife is going to chat with her neighbours to see if there is more to this than we are being told then we will see if we can wrangle with her. A lot of our neighbours know the block we are using and when we asked them about the price being asked they all laughed, they think she is crazy. As some have stated there may be more to this, rent was pretty cheap, only 12,000 baht a year, she might want more, will keep updating. This time if she agrees to it we will get a contract drawn up, thats if we dont find something better.

900sm = 220 talang Wah or 1/2 of a Rai.

Normal rental price for agricultural land is about 2000bht per rai per year.

So you were paying 10x the normal rental price, that's not 'pretty cheap', that's a rip-off.

Sadly, I can't believe that your misses didn't know the normal agricultural land rental prices.

Fact is, everyone but you knew you were being scammed on the land rental and nobody said a word.

(I rent out 5 Rai of prime rice paddy in Petchabun for just under 10k a year)

As for the price of building land, different kettle of fish entirely.

About 10-20k per TW, so 220TW with road access could be priced between 2M and 4MBht.

Sounds like the proposed sale price of 2M bht is actually a bit of a bargain.

Even at 10X the normal price 12K a year is still nothing if there is a nice little business possible from it. It's only 1000 baht a month, most people probably send more than that on tips in a month!

[bangkokfanatic]

Trust someone NOT to take advantage of your mistake in Thailand? Of course you can't trust them. Nor can you trust anyone not to take advantage of free cash in Australia, USA, UK, Vietnam, India, Canada, Mexico, Spain, Germany, Sweden, etc etc......

[MaiChai]

Contract or not this attitude is typical Thai, no 2 doubts about that.

 

 

I have had many conversations with Thai acquaintances in which it has come across clearly that the Thais don't trust each other. There is no background of trust in Thailand, in contrast to northern European countries, because people behave badly towards each other here. If the *Thais* say they don't trust other Thais in general, perhaps it would be wise to listen.

In the west we have the concept of My word is my bond. Certainly at a professional /business level. This does not exist in Thailand and it comes down to who has the greatest fire power. Thus the person who is the local mafia or linked to local police or monied people would have the upper hand and would be in a position to shaft those of lesser power.

[F4UCorsair]

I've posted elsewhere of my experience in Bali some years ago. I bought property at what I thought a reasonable price, but my partner had wised up neighbors to inflate their prices if/when I asked so I thought I was getting a deal. She was on the take with huge secret commissions, and although illegal, the Balinese have a code of silence that makes the Hell's Angels look like kindergarten kids.

Is it possible the family were running the same scam, although at B12,000 pa, there wouldn't be much to make.

The Thais, like the Balinese, make a big deal of karma, but it seems it doesn't; apply when money is involved; that's business, and they're out to screw everybody, including their own.

Luckily I'd secured my investments in Bali with mortgages, so didn't lose any real money, but I didn't profit my nearly as much as I should have either.

Take care when investing anywhere, but particularly in another country. The people of developing countries have more twists than a snake with a broken back when it comes to separating foreigners from their $$, and it's why, when I finally make the move to either Thailand or Philippines, I'll rent, not buy. Then I know how much money I'm 'wasting' every month.

Edited August 30, 2013 by F4UCorsair

[cracker1]

Ceejai it seems a shame to walk away from all your investment in this project, and I don't know a lot about the type of business you are attempting to develop.

You mentioned it was the rainy season and your trees are not that old, so I will float this possibility for you to consider.

• Rent another plot of land (with a lease)
• Get a JCB and a big truck and move all you have, including the top soil and plants and watering system.
• Being the rainy season transplanting should be realistic ?

It may set you back a year in your production / income cycle but is surely better than walking away with nothing.

Good Luck

[Norabone]

Do you want to buy house in half rai with 400 to 500 sq mtr free planting land in agri area very quite?

[AryanicAristocrat]

I think that is wrong to say that Thais are untrustworthy. Please do not make generalisations about Thais and instead you should make notes and understand their background and also their history and anthropological evolution and in fact sympathise with them but not necessary befriend them but rather just stay away from them to avoid any trouble.

You see unlike most Western Nations or even Asian Nations, civilisation in thailand began much much later, and just over a few decades ago, most were still living in the trees. The sudden appearance of farangs enticed by their local slim bodies and also their flexibility in doing anything perverse for the sake of money, brought a lot of sudden economic progress to the country which many still today are not able to grasps yet. As a society , they really do not understand the concept of friendship, give and take, love etc even with their own kinds , so do not expect much from them . They were never colonised by any Western countries , hence their concept of undertanding other kinds of intellectual concepts or emotional bonding concepts is not there. They were indirectly colonised by the Chinese, hence the country is run today by the Thai chinese who brough with them the things like prostitution, drugs, tea money and corruption etc.They are also used to the system of patronising richer or more powerful people and even more yellowish complexions as a result of this indirect colonisation.

Its always best to just stay away from locals. If you are a sex tourist or expat, well do whatever you want with them but never develop a realtionship and also just use them and throw them away. Do not even pity them. If you are a business entrepreneur, simply make your money, do not teach the locals too much, keep a low profile and just enjoy yourself here. Stay away from Government Servants, Politicians, Policemen, Military Men etc as these are all crooks so are their immediate families. Those that can speak English well or seem educated, well...even stay away from them as you will end up with scams etc.

Thais are generally harmless people and are nice if you just stay away from them and simply use them for your needs. Do not ever think of helping them when they are in need or even contribute to their progress and things will be ok.

Thailand is a great country and a great place to make money and enjoy if you know how and off course stay away from anything dubious or illegal. Have fun in Thailand and stop generalising the local inhabitants or making negative things about them. They can not help the way they evolved.

[David48]

I think that is wrong to say that Thais are untrustworthy. Please do not make generalisations about Thais and instead you should make notes and understand their background and also their history and anthropological evolution and in fact sympathise with them but not necessary befriend them but rather just stay away from them to avoid any trouble.

You see unlike most Western Nations or even Asian Nations, civilisation in thailand began much much later, and just over a few decades ago, most were still living in the trees. The sudden appearance of farangs enticed by their local slim bodies and also their flexibility in doing anything perverse for the sake of money, brought a lot of sudden economic progress to the country which many still today are not able to grasps yet. As a society , they really do not understand the concept of friendship, give and take, love etc even with their own kinds , so do not expect much from them . They were never colonised by any Western countries , hence their concept of undertanding other kinds of intellectual concepts or emotional bonding concepts is not there. They were indirectly colonised by the Chinese, hence the country is run today by the Thai chinese who brough with them the things like prostitution, drugs, tea money and corruption etc.They are also used to the system of patronising richer or more powerful people and even more yellowish complexions as a result of this indirect colonisation.

Its always best to just stay away from locals. If you are a sex tourist or expat, well do whatever you want with them but never develop a realtionship and also just use them and throw them away. Do not even pity them. If you are a business entrepreneur, simply make your money, do not teach the locals too much, keep a low profile and just enjoy yourself here. Stay away from Government Servants, Politicians, Policemen, Military Men etc as these are all crooks so are their immediate families. Those that can speak English well or seem educated, well...even stay away from them as you will end up with scams etc.

Thais are generally harmless people and are nice if you just stay away from them and simply use them for your needs. Do not ever think of helping them when they are in need or even contribute to their progress and things will be ok.

Thailand is a great country and a great place to make money and enjoy if you know how and off course stay away from anything dubious or illegal. Have fun in Thailand and stop generalising the local inhabitants or making negative things about them. They can not help the way they evolved.

Not often am I speechless ... though you have achieved that with this post ...

A joy to behold and read that ... your perspective on Thailand is truly unique and I am sure, not shared by many, if any.

Good Luck to you Sir.

[transam]

I think that is wrong to say that Thais are untrustworthy. Please do not make generalisations about Thais and instead you should make notes and understand their background and also their history and anthropological evolution and in fact sympathise with them but not necessary befriend them but rather just stay away from them to avoid any trouble.

You see unlike most Western Nations or even Asian Nations, civilisation in thailand began much much later, and just over a few decades ago, most were still living in the trees. The sudden appearance of farangs enticed by their local slim bodies and also their flexibility in doing anything perverse for the sake of money, brought a lot of sudden economic progress to the country which many still today are not able to grasps yet. As a society , they really do not understand the concept of friendship, give and take, love etc even with their own kinds , so do not expect much from them . They were never colonised by any Western countries , hence their concept of undertanding other kinds of intellectual concepts or emotional bonding concepts is not there. They were indirectly colonised by the Chinese, hence the country is run today by the Thai chinese who brough with them the things like prostitution, drugs, tea money and corruption etc.They are also used to the system of patronising richer or more powerful people and even more yellowish complexions as a result of this indirect colonisation.

Its always best to just stay away from locals. If you are a sex tourist or expat, well do whatever you want with them but never develop a realtionship and also just use them and throw them away. Do not even pity them. If you are a business entrepreneur, simply make your money, do not teach the locals too much, keep a low profile and just enjoy yourself here. Stay away from Government Servants, Politicians, Policemen, Military Men etc as these are all crooks so are their immediate families. Those that can speak English well or seem educated, well...even stay away from them as you will end up with scams etc.

Thais are generally harmless people and are nice if you just stay away from them and simply use them for your needs. Do not ever think of helping them when they are in need or even contribute to their progress and things will be ok.

Thailand is a great country and a great place to make money and enjoy if you know how and off course stay away from anything dubious or illegal. Have fun in Thailand and stop generalising the local inhabitants or making negative things about them. They can not help the way they evolved.

Blimey, my mrs will be a bit upset if l take your advice.

[krisb]

I think that is wrong to say that Thais are untrustworthy. Please do not make generalisations about Thais and instead you should make notes and understand their background and also their history and anthropological evolution and in fact sympathise with them but not necessary befriend them but rather just stay away from them to avoid any trouble.

 

You see unlike most Western Nations or even Asian Nations, civilisation in thailand began much much later, and just over a few decades ago, most were still living in the trees. The sudden appearance of farangs enticed by their local slim bodies and also their flexibility in doing anything perverse for the sake of money, brought a lot of sudden economic progress to the country which many still today are not able to grasps yet. As a society , they really do not understand the concept of friendship, give and take, love etc even with their own kinds , so do not expect much from them . They were never colonised by any Western countries , hence their concept of undertanding other kinds of intellectual concepts or emotional bonding concepts is not there. They were indirectly colonised by the Chinese, hence the country is run today by the Thai chinese who brough with them the things like prostitution, drugs, tea money and corruption etc.They are also used to the system of patronising richer or more powerful people and even more yellowish complexions as a result of this indirect colonisation.

 

Its always best to just stay away from locals. If you are a sex tourist or expat, well do whatever you want with them but never develop a realtionship and also just use them and throw them away. Do not even pity them. If you are a business entrepreneur, simply make your money, do not teach the locals too much, keep a low profile and just enjoy yourself here. Stay away from Government Servants, Politicians, Policemen, Military Men etc as these are all crooks so are their immediate families. Those that can speak English well or seem educated, well...even stay away from them as you will end up with scams etc.

 

Thais are generally harmless people and are nice if you just stay away from them and simply use them for your needs. Do not ever think of helping them when they are in need or even contribute to their progress and things will be ok.

 

Thailand is a great country and a great place to make money and enjoy if you know how and off course stay away from anything dubious or illegal. Have fun in Thailand and stop generalising the local inhabitants or making negative things about them. They can not help the way they evolved.

 

Blimey, my mrs will be a bit upset if l take your advice.

I couldn't be stuffed reading all that. Transam, what did he say?