Jeremy Browne a Lib Dem in the UK government coalition proposes banning the veil for children and young women.

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/minister-calls-for-ban-on-muslim-women-wearing-veils-in-public

This 'Liberal-Democrat' does not have the balls to come out and say "Ban the Islamic veil" but just says "Let's have a debate".

For me, this is a direct attack on the more fundamental Muslims, where the women go out in their Saudi Ninja costumes at all times. There are many other true believers, from Egypt, Indonesia, Syria, Turkey, Iran and other places where the full-face veil is not the norm, who use only the Hijab, to cover their hair. But the tradition in other places is to use the veil.

In France the sacred cow of a secular state has allowed the government to ban face coverings as something inimical to the secular nature of the state. Pity they haven't banned c hurches, mosques, synagogues and other temples of religion. But there we are, an anti-Islamist state.

What should we do in England? For me, I would cite a security issue and ban ALL face coverings, as they do not allow the face-matching properties of the CCTV cameras to function properly. Thus - no veils, no hoodies, no motor-cycle helmets when off the bike, no ski-masks on BNP and EDL marches, so on and so on.

But to discuss only the Islamic veil is a breach of our racism laws and this 'Liberal Democrat' should be in jail.

This 'Liberal-Democrat' does not have the balls to come out and say "Ban the Islamic veil" but just says "Let's have a debate".

For me, this is a direct attack on the more fundamental Muslims, where the women go out in their Saudi Ninja costumes at all times. There are many other true believers, from Egypt, Indonesia, Syria, Turkey, Iran and other places where the full-face veil is not the norm, who use only the Hijab, to cover their hair. But the tradition in other places is to use the veil.

In France the sacred cow of a secular state has allowed the government to ban face coverings as something inimical to the secular nature of the state. Pity they haven't banned c hurches, mosques, synagogues and other temples of religion. But there we are, an anti-Islamist state.

What should we do in England? For me, I would cite a security issue and ban ALL face coverings, as they do not allow the face-matching properties of the CCTV cameras to function properly. Thus - no veils, no hoodies, no motor-cycle helmets when off the bike, no ski-masks on BNP and EDL marches, so on and so on.

But to discuss only the Islamic veil is a breach of our racism laws and this 'Liberal Democrat' should be in jail.

"What should we do in England? For me, I would cite a security issue and ban ALL face coverings, as they do not allow the face-matching properties of the CCTV cameras to function properly. Thus - no veils, no hoodies, no motor-cycle helmets when off the bike, no ski-masks on BNP and EDL marches, so on and so on."

There is a proposal to ban all covered faces from a Yorkshire MP. I can't remember where I read that, msn or BBC I think.

There have been suggestions for this from several sources, but they are virtually unmanageable.

One of the provblems in the Tottenham Hale riots, and the ensuing country-wide riots, was that most of the rioters wore hoodies. No identification possible and the police vastly outnumbered.

My objection in this case is that it is particularly singling out muslim women for regulation - a section of society that rarely offends, but is often offended against.

I am all for openness - as I said, ban hoodies, ban veils, ban motor-cycle hemets off the bike, ban ski-masks on BNP and EDL marchers, ban beards and moustaches, ban students wearing fancy dress masks, but don't ban any of these individually - just ban any covering that conceals the face from casual inspection.

And don't forget - tomorrow is the school photograph

Singling out Muslims was not seen as a problem for Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who went as far as banning Islamic head coverings as well as veils, though as the Turkish population is nearly all Muslim I suppose he wasn't in fact singling anyone out, just everyone in. On a pedantic note, Muslims are not a race, so any case of racism would surely be thrown out. I would hope that any law if passed would apply to the entire population, but perhaps this should be spelled out more clearly. I'm sure many jewelers and owners of rural post offices would raise a glass to such a new law as there are copious numbers of examples of face coverings being used to facilitate criminal activity. (Links provided on request).

Singling out Muslims was not seen as a problem for Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who went as far as banning Islamic head coverings as well as veils, though as the Turkish population is nearly all Muslim I suppose he wasn't in fact singling anyone out, just everyone in.

It was the lifting of a ban.

On a pedantic note, Muslims are not a race, so any case of racism would surely be thrown out.

Aye, as soon as I hear the word race or racism attached to the followers of the cult of Mohammadian Islam I have to judge if I have the time to explain.

The veil issue is alas just the tip of the trunk of the elephant in the room, which we go to such lengths to ignore. More here from the UK and it's headlong charge towards becoming a third world nation. I refer of course to female genital mutilation, ignored largely in the UK in spite of the law.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424556/More-1-500-women-victims-genital-mutiliation-shock-statistics-compiled-ONE-hospital--Somalia.html

The veil issue is alas just the tip of the trunk of the elephant in the room, which we go to such lengths to ignore. More here from the UK and it's headlong charge towards becoming a third world nation. I refer of course to female genital mutilation, ignored largely in the UK in spite of the law.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424556/More-1-500-women-victims-genital-mutiliation-shock-statistics-compiled-ONE-hospital--Somalia.html

You really shouldn't link to the Daily Hate to prove a point.

The veil issue is alas just the tip of the trunk of the elephant in the room.

It's just one facet of the same untruth but nevertheless still worth fighting for IMO.

People should be able to believe whatever they want. I don't care, nor is it any of my business, if an individual believes themselves to be a chicken sandwich. It has nothing to do with me unless that person who believes they are a chicken sandwich demands special treatment and or respect for their view of being a chicken sandwich. Replace 'chicken sandwich' with any other irrational view and the logic behind it remains the same.

The following is attributed to Obama but I have not found any reason to believe he said it.

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to impose an individual's religious belief on others.

Freedom of religion equates exactly to freedom of belief and this in turn equates exactly to freedom to believe you are a chicken sandwich. I have no problem with this until, as I have said and the quote points to, some measure of special pleading is required.

No, you cannot have a get out clause on imposing a veil be worn on others. No, you cannot have a get out clause on attacking the genitals of children because YOU believe YOU are a chicken sandwich. No, you cannot cause undue suffering to animals before slaughter because you think you are a chicken sandwich.

If you don't like clothes of the colour blue then don't wear them.

If you don't like apples then don't eat them.

If you don't like taxis then don't use one.

If you don't like same sex marriage then don't have one.

If you don't like contraception then don't use it.

If you don't like living in a cold climate then don't live there.

If you don't like living in a country where you are required to show your face then don't live there.

Source policing is nothing more than a device intended to shut down discussion. You are welcome to quote whatever sources you like to try and refute the numbers claimed in the Daily Mail report. As for so called freedom of belief we seem to be in agreement; in my opinion this only applies to beliefs which do not have negative consequences for other human beings. In the case of veils there is often severe intimidation of people to wear them, backed up sometimes with violence, even resulting in murder. As for female genital mutilation of child marriage the law of the land is quite clear on these issues and no amount of misguided cultural relativism is going to change these to make them legal. Enforcing the law of the land does not discriminate against any group by direct intent, just because a particular group has a greater prevalence of certain illegal behavior should not afford them any exemption due to said greater prevalence.

Have a look around and you could well find that this lady has a facebook page where she is more than happy to show her face but anyway.

Staff at Al-Madinah School, in Derbyshire, say that they have been told to sign new contracts agreeing to wear hijabs and make girls sit at the back of classes.

The Muslim faith school, which caters for 200 students aged four to 16, also forbids the teachers from bringing in non-Halal food or wearing unacceptable jewellery, it is claimed.

[...]

The school has yet to receive an inspection by Ofsted, which could reasonably be expected to happen this academic year as it is a new school. It could be brought forward in view of representations from the teaching unions and city council.

An Ofsted spokeswoman said: "As schools are only notified the afternoon before inspections begin, we would not be able to let anyone know when the school is being inspected."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10322872/Non-Muslim-teachers-forced-to-wear-veil-at-faith-school.html

I wrote a piece on faith schools mainly on CofE quite some time back and still say the same thing now. Shut them down, all of them. A school is a place of education and not a place of inculcation.

If a British veil wearing women was involved in the Kenyan attack, it will increase support for a ban.

I am all for openness - as I said, ban hoodies, ban veils, ban motor-cycle hemets off the bike, ban ski-masks on BNP and EDL marchers, ban beards and moustaches, ban students wearing fancy dress masks, but don't ban any of these individually - just ban any covering that conceals the face from casual inspection.

This is so obviously the answer that one wonders why it is not carried out without further fuss ( the beards and moustaches might be a bit problematic, though).

So obvious, but of course it would offend some sensitive souls, and that we must never do.

It should never have been put forward as a matter concerning religion; it is a question of security, which must override everything else in public places. What people do in places under their control, homes, schools etc, is their business.

If a British veil wearing women was involved in the Kenyan attack, it will increase support for a ban.

The grandmother of Samantha Lewthwaite, the "White Widow" being hunted in connection with the Kenyan shopping centre massacre has been admitted to hospital because of stress.

Elizabeth Allen, from Banbridge, Co Down, was given a panic alarm to contact security services in case Lewthwaite made contact.

Family friends say the pressure of the situation and the global notoriety of her granddaughter have taken their toll on the frail pensioner's health and mental well-being.

Joan Baird, a veteran Ulster Unionist councillor in Banbridge who knows the family, said: "This is so distressing for everyone. Mrs Allen is 85 and she is in and out of hospital. It is just so distressing.

"Certainly, everybody in the town is shocked and distressed by the news."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/10326548/Nairobi-shopping-mall-attack-live.html

This woman - Samantha Lewthwaite - is the widow of one of the London Underground bombers (the 7/7 event) and has been under surveillance for years. How did she manage to join up (organise??) this group?

Have a look around and you could well find that this lady has a facebook page where she is more than happy to show her face but anyway.

Staff at Al-Madinah School, in Derbyshire, say that they have been told to sign new contracts agreeing to wear hijabs and make girls sit at the back of classes.

The Muslim faith school, which caters for 200 students aged four to 16, also forbids the teachers from bringing in non-Halal food or wearing unacceptable jewellery, it is claimed.

[...]

The school has yet to receive an inspection by Ofsted, which could reasonably be expected to happen this academic year as it is a new school. It could be brought forward in view of representations from the teaching unions and city council.

An Ofsted spokeswoman said: "As schools are only notified the afternoon before inspections begin, we would not be able to let anyone know when the school is being inspected."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10322872/Non-Muslim-teachers-forced-to-wear-veil-at-faith-school.html

I wrote a piece on faith schools mainly on CofE quite some time back and still say the same thing now. Shut them down, all of them. A school is a place of education and not a place of inculcation.

Well guess what.

A Muslim free school accused of imposing strict Islamic practices, such as segregated classrooms, has closed following an inspection by Ofsted.

The BBC understands Ofsted's findings were so damning that the acting head of Al-Madinah, in Derby, had little choice but to shut it down immediately.

The school said the move was due to a "health and safety issue" but expected it to reopen in the "very near future".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24360100

Ofsted, the independent body which overlooks schools in the UK has not finished its inspection as yet so cannot release a report.

Schools educate our children, our future, this should not be taken lightly. Shut down all faith based schools if for no other reason than segregating children on the basis of the personally held belief of their parents is wrong. It is a place of learning, not of belief.

Well guess what.

A Muslim free school accused of imposing strict Islamic practices, such as segregated classrooms, has closed following an inspection by Ofsted.

The BBC understands Ofsted's findings were so damning that the acting head of Al-Madinah, in Derby, had little choice but to shut it down immediately.

The school said the move was due to a "health and safety issue" but expected it to reopen in the "very near future".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24360100

Ofsted, the independent body which overlooks schools in the UK has not finished its inspection as yet so cannot release a report.

Schools educate our children, our future, this should not be taken lightly. Shut down all faith based schools if for no other reason than segregating children on the basis of the personally held belief of their parents is wrong. It is a place of learning, not of belief.

Health and Safety, now there's a new euphemism. I'm reminded of a madrassa in Indonesia, which underwent a hastily organized inspection after half the school blew up as a result of an explosion in the chemistry lab during a 'lesson'.

A state funded Jewish faith school has been caught blacking out questions on science exam papers.

[...]

The precise questions that were blacked out has not been revealed by OCR, but earlier this year a Jewish education consultant warned that evolution in the new GCSE science curriculum could pose problems for strictly Orthodox schools.

[...]

The time has come to draw a line under this faith schools experiment and separate the realms of religion and state education.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/10/jewish-faith-school-caught-censoring-questions-on-science-exam-papers

People in the UK are getting pretty hacked off with 'I demand to be able to wear a veil' and 'I demand to be able to stultify my children' Shut down all faith schools.

More on free schools in the UK as a fall out with regards to the topic.

Conservative education minister Elizabeth Truss has rejected Liberal Democrat calls for tighter controls on free schools in England.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said the schools should employ only qualified teachers and adhere to the national curriculum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24604199

It is the utter failing of 'free' faith based schools which have brought this into the limelight, something the previous Labour government under then PM Tony Blair pushed out and expanded 'free schools' against the wishes of the population and advice from non governmental bodies including many religious bodies. The Labour opposition now have the front to say....

On Sunday, shadow education secretary Tristram Hunt said: "Michael Gove and David Cameron's divisive Free Schools programme is unravelling for all to see.

The UK has what is called a national curriculum unlike the US for example which is based on how many books Texas will buy. It will cause havoc for a short while if all 'free' / 'faith' schools are shut down but not for long. Certainly nowhere near as long if they are kept open as the damage lasts a lifetime.

The veil issue is alas just the tip of the trunk of the elephant in the room, which we go to such lengths to ignore. More here from the UK and it's headlong charge towards becoming a third world nation. I refer of course to female genital mutilation, ignored largely in the UK in spite of the law.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424556/More-1-500-women-victims-genital-mutiliation-shock-statistics-compiled-ONE-hospital--Somalia.html

BBC World News the past w/emd covered GMF. It predates Islam, although that does not stop some Imams saying it is Islamic tradition. One women and daughter from the Gambia have lost an appeal to stay in the UK and may be deported. If they return to their home village they will be cut. The UK government's answer? Relocate.

The veil issue is alas just the tip of the trunk of the elephant in the room, which we go to such lengths to ignore. More here from the UK and it's headlong charge towards becoming a third world nation. I refer of course to female genital mutilation, ignored largely in the UK in spite of the law.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424556/More-1-500-women-victims-genital-mutiliation-shock-statistics-compiled-ONE-hospital--Somalia.html

BBC World News the past w/emd covered GMF. It predates Islam, although that does not stop some Imams saying it is Islamic tradition. One women and daughter from the Gambia have lost an appeal to stay in the UK and may be deported. If they return to their home village they will be cut. The UK government's answer? Relocate.

If all the people who DO object run away then nothing with change. It is nothing short of condemning those who come after to the same abuse. Running away is never a path to good for a collective.

The veil issue is alas just the tip of the trunk of the elephant in the room, which we go to such lengths to ignore. More here from the UK and it's headlong charge towards becoming a third world nation. I refer of course to female genital mutilation, ignored largely in the UK in spite of the law.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424556/More-1-500-women-victims-genital-mutiliation-shock-statistics-compiled-ONE-hospital--Somalia.html

BBC World News the past w/emd covered GMF. It predates Islam, although that does not stop some Imams saying it is Islamic tradition. One women and daughter from the Gambia have lost an appeal to stay in the UK and may be deported. If they return to their home village they will be cut. The UK government's answer? Relocate.

If all the people who DO object run away then nothing with change. It is nothing short of condemning those who come after to the same abuse. Running away is never a path to good for a collective.

Some of these "women" are as young as 10 years of age.

You are drifting off-topic.

Female genital mutilation is against the law in the UK. Abuse of children is against the law in the UK. I know that these things happen, but it is possible to stamp out such disgusting treatment of innocent girls, if the government (of any persuasion) has the will.

The wearing of the veil, or ski masks, or hoodies is not against the law. I feel that they should be, in all public places. But than I also want a comprehensive ID card for everyone - maybe a microchip to be inserted at birth and updated every five years, Traceability of all at all times.

But to discuss only the Islamic veil is a breach of our racism laws and this 'Liberal Democrat' should be in jail.

Since when are followers of Islam a race?

Anyway........

The whole veil episode has burst open a huge can of worms, not least in the education system. Teachers being forced to wear veils has ballooned because it turns out that many of these teachers are not teachers at all. Totally unqualified to be teaching the next generation and being paid by the state to do so. Deputy PM and leader of the Lib. Dems. Nick Clegg Seems to be distancing himself from the issue which will please his sheep like followers.

The Lib Dems are right to raise concerns about free schools as part of a pre-election move to set out their priorities, a Cabinet minister says.

Ed Davey suggested the party had backed aspects of education policy as a price of being in coalition with the Tories.

It comes after Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said the schools should employ only qualified teachers and adhere to the national curriculum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24607369

Satirical news outlet NewsBiscuit have highlighted the issue with the following.

Under new plans unveiled by the government, citizens are now being allowed to set up their own GP surgeries and hospitals without having to worry about the levels of bureaucracy which currently force them to use qualified staff.

By removing unnecessary levels of red tape, we believe we will soon see services which cater more accurately to local needs, announced Health Minister Jeremy Hunt. Acupuncture heart transplants, herbal hysterectomies, and vasectomies with a vodka are all thought to be in the advanced stages of planning by a London Free group.

I hope the whole reason for this coming up, the veil, is not lost in the noise.

Although it is usual in state schools for teachers to have taken both university degrees and a qualification from a teacher's training college, as my daughter did last century, this does not guarantee that the teacher can impart knowledge and a keen-ness to discover and learn on their own.

In private schools teachers do not have to have particular qualifications. The head has the opportunity to choose the best person for the job, qualified or not. I sent my daughter to St Helens, Northwood - a private school that is usually found in the top five girls' schools in the Telegraph league tables. (or is it the Times? I'm out of touch on schools league tables these days). It is very easy to see the difference in approach to life from pupils of different schools, even from the same catchment areas.

See the comments of the Lib-Dem minister for education (D Laws?) as against the Clogged thoughts of the leader.

Although it is usual in state schools for teachers to have taken both university degrees and a qualification from a teacher's training college, as my daughter did last century, this does not guarantee that the teacher can impart knowledge and a keen-ness to discover and learn on their own.

In private schools teachers do not have to have particular qualifications. The head has the opportunity to choose the best person for the job, qualified or not. I sent my daughter to St Helens, Northwood - a private school that is usually found in the top five girls' schools in the Telegraph league tables. (or is it the Times? I'm out of touch on schools league tables these days). It is very easy to see the difference in approach to life from pupils of different schools, even from the same catchment areas.

See the comments of the Lib-Dem minister for education (D Laws?) as against the Clogged thoughts of the leader.

Quite agree. The essence of great teaching is not something that can be actually taught. If you do not have the personality, presence, charisma, patience and flexibility, plus of course subject knowledge, boundless enthusiasm and a palpable love of what you do, kids will see through you in seconds and learning will be an unlikely end-product.

Guess who loves the closed shop only qualified teachers can teach approach? The comparison with do-it-yourself surgery are laughably pathetic. Teaching is not a science or a technical skill, it's more like doing stand up with sometimes the toughest audience ever to please and win over.

The same nonsense re only qualified teachers can be school heads managers explains why so many schools in the UK at least are so badly run. The qualities required to teach are fundamentally different to that of managing a business, which with increasing independence many schools now are becoming.

Bottom line, the best people do the best job. Letters after your name can only take you so far....

Although it is usual in state schools for teachers to have taken both university degrees and a qualification from a teacher's training college, as my daughter did last century, this does not guarantee that the teacher can impart knowledge and a keen-ness to discover and learn on their own.

In private schools teachers do not have to have particular qualifications. The head has the opportunity to choose the best person for the job, qualified or not. I sent my daughter to St Helens, Northwood - a private school that is usually found in the top five girls' schools in the Telegraph league tables. (or is it the Times? I'm out of touch on schools league tables these days). It is very easy to see the difference in approach to life from pupils of different schools, even from the same catchment areas.

See the comments of the Lib-Dem minister for education (D Laws?) as against the Clogged thoughts of the leader.

Quite agree. The essence of great teaching is not something that can be actually taught. If you do not have the personality, presence, charisma, patience and flexibility, plus of course subject knowledge, boundless enthusiasm and a palpable love of what you do, kids will see through you in seconds and learning will be an unlikely end-product.

Guess who loves the closed shop only qualified teachers can teach approach? The comparison with do-it-yourself surgery are laughably pathetic. Teaching is not a science or a technical skill, it's more like doing stand up with sometimes the toughest audience ever to please and win over.

The same nonsense re only qualified teachers can be school heads managers explains why so many schools in the UK at least are so badly run. The qualities required to teach are fundamentally different to that of managing a business, which with increasing independence many schools now are becoming.

Bottom line, the best people do the best job. Letters after your name can only take you so far....

Specifically

plus of course subject knowledge

[...]

The qualities required to teach

What method would you suggest to discern between those who are and those or are not.?

Is there an issue? Yes. Would a prefer a clown who is able to engage the children but teach them nothing over someone who does not engage the children but at least attempt to impart knowledge on them? The latter thanks.

People who fight for, or wish for mediocrity, are my enemy. If someone knowingly tells a lie to a child, they are my enemy.

Although it is usual in state schools for teachers to have taken both university degrees and a qualification from a teacher's training college, as my daughter did last century, this does not guarantee that the teacher can impart knowledge and a keen-ness to discover and learn on their own.

In private schools teachers do not have to have particular qualifications. The head has the opportunity to choose the best person for the job, qualified or not. I sent my daughter to St Helens, Northwood - a private school that is usually found in the top five girls' schools in the Telegraph league tables. (or is it the Times? I'm out of touch on schools league tables these days). It is very easy to see the difference in approach to life from pupils of different schools, even from the same catchment areas.

See the comments of the Lib-Dem minister for education (D Laws?) as against the Clogged thoughts of the leader.

Quite agree. The essence of great teaching is not something that can be actually taught. If you do not have the personality, presence, charisma, patience and flexibility, plus of course subject knowledge, boundless enthusiasm and a palpable love of what you do, kids will see through you in seconds and learning will be an unlikely end-product.

Guess who loves the closed shop only qualified teachers can teach approach? The comparison with do-it-yourself surgery are laughably pathetic. Teaching is not a science or a technical skill, it's more like doing stand up with sometimes the toughest audience ever to please and win over.

The same nonsense re only qualified teachers can be school heads managers explains why so many schools in the UK at least are so badly run. The qualities required to teach are fundamentally different to that of managing a business, which with increasing independence many schools now are becoming.

Bottom line, the best people do the best job. Letters after your name can only take you so far....

Specifically

plus of course subject knowledge

[...]

The qualities required to teach

What method would you suggest to discern between those who are and those or are not.?

Is there an issue? Yes. Would a prefer a clown who is able to engage the children but teach them nothing over someone who does not engage the children but at least attempt to impart knowledge on them? The latter thanks.

People who fight for, or wish for mediocrity, are my enemy. If someone knowingly tells a lie to a child, they are my enemy.

Certainly in the UK a key part of the interview process for a teaching post is an observed lesson.

Also during their first year, teachers are on an NQT (Newly Qualified Teacher) status and are closely monitored and assessed and have to be signed off as competent at the year end to remain teachers.

Certainly in the UK a key part of the interview process for a teaching post is an observed lesson.

Which obviously happens in a 'free school'. Give the kids a free balloon and everyone is happy.

Certainly in the UK a key part of the interview process for a teaching post is an observed lesson.

Which obviously happens in a 'free school'. Give the kids a free balloon and everyone is happy.

Luckily most free schools do their job a little better than the one in Derby....

Certainly in the UK a key part of the interview process for a teaching post is an observed lesson.

Which obviously happens in a 'free school'. Give the kids a free balloon and everyone is happy.

What is your problem?

Failed your TEFL?