Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[StreetCowboy]

I expect the first war between the two nations will be wen Vladimir Salmond goes across the Tweed to help his compatriots in Berwick

[smokie36]

I expect the first war between the two nations will be wen Vladimir Salmond goes across the Tweed to help his compatriots in Berwick

Nah it will be a skirmish when they try to drop by the pubs in our half of Berwick late at night....an have to pay £10 for a visitor visa.....

[folium]

I expect the first war between the two nations will be wen Vladimir Salmond goes across the Tweed to help his compatriots in Berwick

Nah it will be a skirmish when they try to drop by the pubs in our half of Berwick late at night....an have to pay £10 for a visitor visa.....

Good on the smoked fish, not so hot on the Scottish geography.

While Berwick plays football and rugby in Scottish leagues (not with any great success), no part of the town is anywhere near the border with Scotland and Berwick has been firmly English since 1482. All the defences built there were not designed to keep the French at bay!

You also seem to fall prey to the misconception that the Tweed marks the boundary between England and Scotland. Basically that it is only the case roughly from east of Norham to west of Coldstream. Some of the finest parts of Scotland are south of the Tweed in what used to be Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire and chunks of Dumfriesshire and Peebleshire.

So that's an F in Geography....!

[smokie36]

I expect the first war between the two nations will be wen Vladimir Salmond goes across the Tweed to help his compatriots in Berwick

Nah it will be a skirmish when they try to drop by the pubs in our half of Berwick late at night....an have to pay £10 for a visitor visa.....

Good on the smoked fish, not so hot on the Scottish geography.

While Berwick plays football and rugby in Scottish leagues (not with any great success), no part of the town is anywhere near the border with Scotland and Berwick has been firmly English since 1482. All the defences built there were not designed to keep the French at bay!

You also seem to fall prey to the misconception that the Tweed marks the boundary between England and Scotland. Basically that it is only the case roughly from east of Norham to west of Coldstream. Some of the finest parts of Scotland are south of the Tweed in what used to be Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire and chunks of Dumfriesshire and Peebleshire.

So that's an F in Geography....!

Now who is taking himself too seriously?

[jpinx]

Has Salmond been in touch with Putin yet. He could learn a trick or two

[Basil B]

Another point to debate...

would that mean every country in the world that incorporates the Union Jack into it's flag would need a redesign?

Assuming Scotland did get independence, then it would not be part of the Union so the Union Jack would need redesigning.

Anguilla, Ashmore and Cartier Islands, Australia, Bermuda, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Coral Sea Islands, Falkland Islands, Fiji, Heard Island and McDonald Islands, Montserrat, New Zealand, Niue, Pitcairn Islands, Saint Helena, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, Tokelau, Turks and Caicos Islands and Tuvalu, plus others and regions that incorporate the UJ in their flags.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Basil B

[vagaboberalis]

Deliberate misinterpretation is banal. The property price differential has been exploited for over 50 years, not a voting gambit. To suggest thus is puerile. The fact that there is a large well heeled English expat community within Scotland over this period with a right to vote by residency is bound to sway the outcome. That born and bred Scots (there is only one 't', Scott is a name for those uneducated in the English language) living outside their native land are excluded from voting is clearly undemocratic. Were they to vote Yeah or Nay is not the political point. Slainte

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[7by7]

The fact that there is a large well heeled English expat community within Scotland over this period with a right to vote by residency is bound to sway the outcome. That born and bred Scots (there is only one 't', Scott is a name for those uneducated in the English language) living outside their native land are excluded from voting is clearly undemocratic.

Take it up with Salmond; it was he and his government who decided who can and cannot vote in the referendum.

Maybe he reckoned all those expat Scots would be unwilling to give up their British passports!

[vagaboberalis]

Once more your inability to comprehend what you read and lack of political acumen prevails. You failed to quote fully my text thus permitting a biased view to overlook proper debate. Slainte.

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[nontabury]

Deliberate misinterpretation is banal. The property price differential has been exploited for over 50 years, not a voting gambit. To suggest thus is puerile. The fact that there is a large well heeled English expat community within Scotland over this period with a right to vote by residency is bound to sway the outcome. That born and bred Scots (there is only one 't', Scott is a name for those uneducated in the English language) living outside their native land are excluded from voting is clearly undemocratic. Were they to vote Yeah or Nay is not the political point. Slainte

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It sounds as if you think all the English living in Scotland will vote NO, well maybe they will vote as the majority of the English living in England would, if they had the vote in September, and that of course would be YES.

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[ChrisB87]

Has there been any indication as to what the passport situation will be if independence is reached?

Do we have to change? Is there any time limit to change? Has England or Scotland said anything about it? I expect we would be able to enter Scotland on a UK passport just like any other EU passport, but you never know. There was a lot knit picking talk from England about border controls n stuff, if Scotland leaves.

Edited March 13, 2014 by ChrisB87

[jpinx]

Has there been any indication as to what the passport situation will be if independence is reached?

Do we have to change? Is there any time limit to change? Has England or Scotland said anything about it? I expect we would be able to enter Scotland on a UK passport just like any other EU passport, but you never know. There was a lot knit picking talk from England about border controls n stuff, if Scotland leaves.

Relax -- UK allows dual-citizenship. Plenty of time to get passports sorted out later.

[uptheos]

Blast! I thought it was March 2015.

[wigantojapan]

New economic confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off an independent country:

"Over the past 5 years Scotland’s would have been £8.3 billion better off as an independent country, when taking account of the new report published into Scotland’s finances today."

New figures confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off an independent country

www.businessforscotland.co.uk

[transam]

New economic confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off an independent country:

"Over the past 5 years Scotland’s would have been £8.3 billion better off as an independent country, when taking account of the new report published into Scotland’s finances today."

New figures confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off an independent country

www.businessforscotland.co.uk

Really...............

[wigantojapan]

Independent Scotland could be AAA rated – Standard & Poors

Latest from Business for Scotland

The S&P report includes seven major rebuttals of No Campaign myths

In a massive blow to the credibility of the No Campaign’s scaremongering, the credit rating agency Standard & Poor’s released a report yesterday, clearly stating that an independent Scotland would be an investment grade economy.

The report states emphatically that S&P would expect Scotland to ‘benefit from all the attributes of an investment-grade sovereign credit’ due to its ‘wealthy’ economy, and that it sees ‘no fundamental reason’ in terms of Scotland’s balance sheet why Scotland could not float its own currency (even though we do not intend to).

Interestingly, given that it comes on the heels of yesterday’s exaggerated media coverage of the statement by Standard Life, S&P actually reported that ‘a shrinking of Scotland’s ‘unusually large’ financial services sector could boost the country’s sovereign credit rating by reducing the size of the economy’s external balance sheet and reducing its liabilities’.

In other words, the perception of Scotland’s credit-worthiness could be even stronger if one or two banks left. They won’t of course, which is why we only mention this for academic interest, but it reminds that we should be careful about presuming that if certain institutions did leave, it would be a disaster. RBS comes to mind in particular. Of course, RBS is deleveraging so quickly that the size of its asset base in Scotland is likely to have reduced even more significantly by independence day in March 2016. And the financial sector in Scotland contributes to a smaller share of GDP than the UK as a whole anyway.

Far from worrying about the volatility of oil prices, credit ratings agencies seem to be more concerned about the highly volatile financial sector that dominates the UK’s economy, and of course contributed to the recession and credit crisis. Business for Scotland has long argued that this is where the real threat to Scotland’s economy lies.

The report gives Scotland a positive rating even under the scenario that:

• Scotland would not have a currency union and would have its own currency (which BFS does not believe will happen)
• Scotland would inherit a population share of UK debt (which BFS expects to happen because Scotland will gain a fair share of assets including currency)
• A major financial institution or two were to leave (which they won’t in our view)

There are seven major rebuttals to the No Campaign’s position in the report:

1) Oil revenues are bonus to Scotland, not something we are dependent on.

S&P state that Scotland could manage independently even without the contribution of the North Sea. Our GDP without oil is roughly similar to other credit-worthy nations.

2) Scotland is not excessively reliant on oil.
S&P says it only considers an economy to be over-reliant on a particular industry if it accounts for more than 20% of GDP. Oil in Scotland is between 12-16% of GDP.

3) The people of Scotland and the business community can be confident in the strength of an independent Scotland’s economy.

S&P cites ‘high-quality human capital, flexible product and labour markets and transparent institutions’ as further reasons for confidence in the Scottish economy.

4) Scotland has a strong balance of payments.
The report states: ‘Overall, then, from a balance of payments perspective, there is
little evidence that Scotland depends on the rest of the world to finance a large share of its annual GDP. In other words, net external financing on an annual basis appears to be relatively low’.

5) Scotland is a wealthy nation.

The report compares the GDP (wealth in the economy) on a per head basis with other countries, stating:

• Scotland GDP p/capita = $47,369
• Germany GDP p/capita = $43,855
• UK GDP p/capita = $41,066
• New Zealand GDP p/capita =$39,840

All of those nations have an AAA credit rating from at least one of the three big credit rating agencies and Moody’s rates New Zealand higher than it does the UK.

6) Scotland has a varied tax base (and by extension a diverse economy).
S&P states ‘even excluding North Sea output and calculating per capita GDP only by looking at onshore income, Scotland would qualify for our highest economic assessment. Higher GDP per capita, in our view, gives a country a broader potential tax and funding base to draw from, which supports creditworthiness’.

7) Danny Alexander’s credibility is in tatters

Danny Alexander credibility in tatters.

[smokie36]

Blast! I thought it was March 2015.

People like you are banned from North, West and even parts of South London ups....get over it mate!

[transam]

Blast! I thought it was March 2015.

People like you are banned from North, West and even parts of South London ups....get over it mate!

, no, he's not from south of the Thames.................. ..................

[vagaboberalis]

Well, I say, old boy, how jolly decent of you.

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[smokie36]

Blast! I thought it was March 2015.

People like you are banned from North, West and even parts of South London ups....get over it mate!

, no, he's not from south of the Thames.................. ..................

I know exactly where he is from.....and where his favourite curry house is.

Wait till he moves to Scotland and tries chips and curry sauce ......they never go home....have you not noticed that trans am? :-D

[transam]

Hmmmm, I would love a plate of chips and thick curry sauce right now, think we all agree about some things, where ever we were born........ .........

[7by7]

Deliberate misinterpretation is banal. The property price differential has been exploited for over 50 years, not a voting gambit. To suggest thus is puerile. The fact that there is a large well heeled English expat community within Scotland over this period with a right to vote by residency is bound to sway the outcome. That born and bred Scots (there is only one 't', Scott is a name for those uneducated in the English language) living outside their native land are excluded from voting is clearly undemocratic. Were they to vote Yeah or Nay is not the political point. Slainte

Sent from my SM-C105 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The fact that there is a large well heeled English expat community within Scotland over this period with a right to vote by residency is bound to sway the outcome. That born and bred Scots (there is only one 't', Scott is a name for those uneducated in the English language) living outside their native land are excluded from voting is clearly undemocratic.

Take it up with Salmond; it was he and his government who decided who can and cannot vote in the referendum.

Maybe he reckoned all those expat Scots would be unwilling to give up their British passports!

Once more your inability to comprehend what you read and lack of political acumen prevails. You failed to quote fully my text thus permitting a biased view to overlook proper debate. Slainte.

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As can be seen, I quoted the part I was addressing; the relevant part.

That your only response is a childish insult speaks volumes.

Perhaps you could honour us by giving your view on whom should be allowed to vote in the referendum and why?

Edited to remove typo and so please the spelling police. (Is 'typo' allowed?)

Edited March 13, 2014 by 7by7

[7by7]

New economic confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off an independent country:

"Over the past 5 years Scotland’s would have been £8.3 billion better off as an independent country, when taking account of the new report published into Scotland’s finances today."

New figures confirm that Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off an independent country

www.businessforscotland.co.uk

Business for Scotland are a group actively campaigning for a Yes vote; any independent source?

Independent Scotland could be AAA rated – Standard & Poors

Latest from Business for Scotland

(Remainder of quote deleted to save space)

Maybe you should read the S&P report; it's full of ifs, buts and maybes; which BoS have failed to mention. No surprise there!

[uptheos]

Blast! I thought it was March 2015.

People like you are banned from North, West and even parts of South London ups....get over it mate!

, no, he's not from south of the Thames.................. ..................

I know exactly where he is from.....and where his favourite curry house is.

Wait till he moves to Scotland and tries chips and curry sauce ......they never go home....have you not noticed that trans am? :-D

I'm not getting a visa just to try curry & chips.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581579/Home-Secretary-Theresa-May-says-passport-checks-introduced-wants-cross-border-Scotland-votes-independence.html

[Tanlic]

Can we English people have a referendum to vote on if we want Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom? It seems to be all one way traffic. All these people getting referendums. English people never get referendums for anything.

You do so you got a referendum whether the ball crossed the line or not

[7by7]

I'm not getting a visa just to try curry & chips.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581579/Home-Secretary-Theresa-May-says-passport-checks-introduced-wants-cross-border-Scotland-votes-independence.html

All joking aside, this is actually a serious matter.

I always thought that an independent Scotland would remain within the Common travel Area.

The CTA currently comprises the RoI, the UK, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands; but it is not an open border in the way that the Schengen area is.

People can only pass freely between the two countries without any immigration control or conditions or restriction if they are an Irish or British national. Obviously, as both countries are members of the EU and the EEA, EEA nationals have freedom of movement rights within them both; but the scope of the CTA is far wider than these EEA rights.

In 1997 the Republic changed it's legislation so that Irish immigration have the right to examine identity documents of all people entering the Republic from elsewhere in the CTA and refuse them entry if they do not have permission to do so. This effectively means that both Irish and British citizens need their passports to prove their nationality; unless they can do so by other means.

Fixed controls only exists at air and sea ports, but random checks, often intelligence led, are carried out at land crossings.

The UK do not carry out fixed checks, a proposal to do so in 2008 was abandoned following pressure from Ulster Unionists as it would have necessitated controls on all people arriving from the island of Ireland; including Northern Ireland which is, of course, part of the UK. The UK does, though, carry out random checks.

In addition to the above, all air and sea carriers between the RoI and the UK require photo ID from passengers; whichever direction they are travelling in. Most (all?) carriers between Northern Ireland and Great Britain require the same. If the passenger cannot produce such ID to show they have the right to enter their destination then the carrier will not allow them to board. Acceptable ID from British and Irish nationals varies from carrier to carrier (all will, of course, accept a valid passport) but EEA nationals will need a valid passport or national ID card and non EEA nationals will need a valid passport and, if required, visa.

In 2011 the British and Irish governments issued a joint statement on the CTA.

Whilst not legally binding, the statement does commit both governments to continuing co-operation through the CTA, to align their lists of visa free countries, to develop electronic border management systems, to engage in data sharing to combat the abuse of the Common Travel Area, and to work toward a fully-common short stay visit visa.

For an independent Scotland to remain in the CTA they would obviously need the agreement of both the British and Irish governments; agreements they are extremely unlikely to get unless an independent Scotland agrees with the terms of that joint statement.

Were an independent Scotland to join Schengen then there is no way that the British and Irish governments would agree to them remaining within the CTA.

Of course, policing the land border, other than at main road crossings, would be difficult, but other countries manage it.

Who'd like the contract for rebuilding Hadrian's Wall and moving a bit further north (or the Antonine Wall and moving it a quite a long way south)?

[jpinx]

Indeed the CTA and the Schengen agreements are - on the surface - mutually exclusive. I wonder what exceptions are possible. That is subject to negotiation on a case-by-case basis, but I think Scotland could agree to the CTA because it seems that that makes sense, but also be in the EEA under some special conditions.

[7by7]

Both the UK and RoI are, of course, members of the EU and EEA and so subject to EEA freedom of movement regulations.

They are not, though, members of the Schengen area.

Indeed the RoI did not join Schengen because the UK didn't and the Irish government felt maintaining the CTA to be more beneficial to the Republic than joining Schengen.

There is no reason why an independent Scotland could not join the EU and the EEA and the CTA. But they could not join Schengen and the CTA.

What is not clear is whether an independent Scotland's admission to the EU would be dependant upon them also joining Schengen.

Salmond seems to be keeping very quiet on this important matter.

[jpinx]

It's not a big issue and can wait to be resolved in detail when the YEs vote comes back. Not everything can be set in stone prior to the vote.

Personally I think Scotland would be better in the CTA and not in Schengen, but my knowledge of the details of these agreements and their potential conflicts is sketchy

[7by7]

Sorry, but it is a big issue. One that will have a profound effect upon the people of Scotland's ability to travel around these islands.

For details of the Schengen area and how it works; see here.

The UK and RoI, as existing EU members when the agreement was first signed were able to opt out; but all new members of the EU are legally bound to join as a condition of EU membership..

Hence the conflict.

If an independent Scotland wants to join the EU, it will have to join Schengen.

If an independent Scotland joins the Schengen area, neither the UK nor the Irish government will be keen on letting them remain within the CTA.

The UK opted out of Schengen as it felt that having no land border with any other state, other than the RoI, it could control it's own borders and did not want to relinquish that control nor impose measures such as ID cards and police registration of migrants common in the Schengen states.

The RoI did not join as it wanted to keep the CTA with the UK, which would have been impossible had it joined Schengen and so had no border controls between the RoI and the other Schengen states.

The people of Scotland surely have the right to know about the difficulties they may face travelling between Scotland and the UK and Scotland and the RoI should they vote Yes.

Why is Salmond keeping quiet on this important issue?

Edited March 16, 2014 by 7by7