Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[jpinx]

To my fellow independence minded members here.

May I suggest on many levels that you are wasting your time arguing on this thread with people that have no say, no vote in the referendum. Please make your way towards the multiple social media threads available which target the genuine electoral pool. We need every effort possible in the upcoming election to secure a Yes vote, and I can see that there are many passionate voices here. Put your effort where it counts, aim it directly at the electorate.

You are being sold a dummy on this thread.

Follow the money --- over 60% of people who have taken a punt have been in favour of independence

[jpinx]

You hope.. Could be said that the SNP saying otherwise is posturing as well. They are taking a big risk, especially as their secession will increase the odds of a Tory govt in London.

On the issue of sterling it makes no sense for England to prevent Scotland from using a common currency...only a political and monetary suicide from the English will result in us forming our own haggis or whisky currency....

Why would it be suicide for England? It would create a situation similar to the one that kept the UK out of the Euro zone. Not being in full control of the currency. And it would create a situation where you achieved your cherished independence, but at the same time remained dependent.

You need to look around the world. Many countries do not use their own currency. Ireland effectively used sterling for many years. and it didn't do them any harm.

[jpinx]

It is a forecast; yes. As is that produced by the Treasury.

But it is a forecast the SNP didn't want people to know about and so lied about.

--------------------------------------

Two points 7by7,,,

If the treasury produced forecasts worth reading we would not have been through continuous cycles of boom and bust since goodness-knows-when

All politicians lie -- it's their job

It's a sad day when we rely on Treasury forecasts, the utterings of prompted politicians, and wikipedia to decide our future -- in this or any other matter...

No matter how unreliable, or otherwise, Treasury forecasts have been; at least they don't lie about them and try to hide their real figures from the public.

Unlike the SNP!

....................................

Treasury forecasts are written for WESTMINSTER -- not for Scotland.

Please check the authors agenda before you read it.

There are no "REAL" figures -- they are all forecasts.

Err, yes; forecasts are forecasts. Where have I denied that?

But, as I said, the Treasury have produced one set of forecasts and published them.

Unlike the SNP, who have produced one very optimistic set of forecasts for public consumption and another, far gloomier set of forecasts which they tried to hide.

Which set of SNP forecasts has more credence?

The ones for public consumption, or the ones they tried desperately to hide from the public?

There are different versions of almost every report/forecast -- depending on who commissioned it or prepared it. I don't know why you have to debunk the SNP so much - they are not important here - Scotland is voting for independence -- not for the SNP -- Please make sure you understand the difference

[jpinx]

I presume that you will accept that your first point, about remaining reserves, is meaningless because the link you provided is irrelevant in that it does not cover the Clyde Basin, and as a piece of data it is not to be trusted because it has no reference to any verifiable piece of analysis. In short, you have no idea how much oil reserves there are in Scottish waters.

Is the Clyde no longer in the West of Scotland, then?

BTW, read the other link I provided.

As for turning estimates into certainties - I am not asking Salmond; I am asking you! You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact, so I will repeat my question: how can YOU, 7by7, take an estimate and make a certainty?

Who is massaging things here? I think you need to take that beam from your eye!

"You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact..."

Really? Kindly show me where I said that.

You need to understand how Scotland's waters are described by Scots. The "west of Scotland" would be the waters from the Sound of Islay to Cape Wrath. I know -- I live there -- and I have been involved with oil and gas exploration all around Scotland (and other places)

Quoting an estimate to support an argument is tantamount to declaring it fact. Let's not get into the semantics

[jpinx]

This is simply posturing by the UK government of the day.

Why should the UK government and the Bank of England allow a foreign country to use Sterling?

Of course, if the government of an independent Scotland wants to peg their own currency to Sterling, as the RoI did until the 1970s, that is up to them.

But if you want independence from the UK, why do you want your currency controlled by the UK government and central bank?

All of which is probably irrelevant as it assumes the EU waives for an independent Scotland the requirement that all new members adopt the Euro.

---------------------------------------------------------

Currency is a non-issue. You have said yourself that RoI pegged the Punt to sterling for many years -- Scotland could easily do the same. I have pointed out many times to you that there are countries of considerable wealth who do not have their own currency. Scotland could easily use the Scottish Pound, pegged to sterling for now, while they get sorted out with EU and the euro. Bear in mind that Poland have very late adoption of the euro and they've been in a long while.

[RuamRudy]

I presume that you will accept that your first point, about remaining reserves, is meaningless because the link you provided is irrelevant in that it does not cover the Clyde Basin, and as a piece of data it is not to be trusted because it has no reference to any verifiable piece of analysis. In short, you have no idea how much oil reserves there are in Scottish waters.

Is the Clyde no longer in the West of Scotland, then?

BTW, read the other link I provided.

As for turning estimates into certainties - I am not asking Salmond; I am asking you! You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact, so I will repeat my question: how can YOU, 7by7, take an estimate and make a certainty?

Who is massaging things here? I think you need to take that beam from your eye!

"You very confidently stated that an estimate was conclusive evidence of a fact..."

Really? Kindly show me where I said that.

You need to understand how Scotland's waters are described by Scots. The "west of Scotland" would be the waters from the Sound of Islay to Cape Wrath. I know -- I live there -- and I have been involved with oil and gas exploration all around Scotland (and other places)

Quoting an estimate to support an argument is tantamount to declaring it fact. Let's not get into the semantics

Agreed - anyone with any knowledge of UK oil fields will be able to tell you that West of Shetland refers specifically to the very challenging fields operated by BP at the edges of the Atlantic shelf, and bear, therefore, no relation to the Clyde Basin

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[transam]

Seems we are getting back to the oil thing again...........

[RuamRudy]

This is simply posturing by the UK government of the day.

Why should the UK government and the Bank of England allow a foreign country to use Sterling?

Of course, if the government of an independent Scotland wants to peg their own currency to Sterling, as the RoI did until the 1970s, that is up to them.

But if you want independence from the UK, why do you want your currency controlled by the UK government and central bank?

All of which is probably irrelevant as it assumes the EU waives for an independent Scotland the requirement that all new members adopt the Euro.

---------------------------------------------------------

Currency is a non-issue. You have said yourself that RoI pegged the Punt to sterling for many years -- Scotland could easily do the same. I have pointed out many times to you that there are countries of considerable wealth who do not have their own currency. Scotland could easily use the Scottish Pound, pegged to sterling for now, while they get sorted out with EU and the euro. Bear in mind that Poland have very late adoption of the euro and they've been in a long while.

Something else that people seem to be forgetting - the trade from England to Scotland, which was something like £56 billion in 2011. There would be a lot of unhappy English business owners if the Chancellor was to spit out his dummy.

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[jpinx]

Read the other link provided; which makes that point very clear.

Read the leaked SNP document.

Read the multitude of other data on the subject.

If you want independence, that is your right; provided the majority want it too.

But make a proper decision based on all the evidence; not one based upon the rosy view of a peoples' paradise governed by benevolent, altruistic philanthropists you have peddled so often in this topic.

In other words, decide with your head, not your heart.

The most important data to avoid is that produced by governments and associated bodies. If you want data - go to the commercial world where they are paid to get it right. The oil/gas industry would confirm Scotland's wealth, but they can't let commercially confidential information out. The same applies to many industries and the Scots who are involved on the ground understand just how rich we really are. There's no need for dodgy reports and forecasts.

[RuamRudy]

Seems we are getting back to the oil thing again...........

Sorry, a flaw of mine, but when I see deliberate distortions of the truth that are designed to damage the cause of independence , I feel compelled to retort.

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[jpinx]

This is simply posturing by the UK government of the day.

Why should the UK government and the Bank of England allow a foreign country to use Sterling?

Of course, if the government of an independent Scotland wants to peg their own currency to Sterling, as the RoI did until the 1970s, that is up to them.

But if you want independence from the UK, why do you want your currency controlled by the UK government and central bank?

All of which is probably irrelevant as it assumes the EU waives for an independent Scotland the requirement that all new members adopt the Euro.

---------------------------------------------------------

Currency is a non-issue. You have said yourself that RoI pegged the Punt to sterling for many years -- Scotland could easily do the same. I have pointed out many times to you that there are countries of considerable wealth who do not have their own currency. Scotland could easily use the Scottish Pound, pegged to sterling for now, while they get sorted out with EU and the euro. Bear in mind that Poland have very late adoption of the euro and they've been in a long while.

Something else that people seem to be forgetting - the trade from England to Scotland, which was something like £56 billion in 2011. There would be a lot of unhappy English business owners if the Chancellor was to spit out his dummy.

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Whisky exports have increased by 87% in the past decade and it contributes over £4.25billion to the UK economy -- there's a dummy to spit out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland

[jpinx]

I wonder if an independent Scotland would have a "Golden Visa" scheme for dis-enfranchised English/Welsh/Northern Irish folks -- the "new UKsians" and others. Scotland is well known for financial astuteness and high living standards -- could be a big money spinner,,,,,,,,,

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27674135

Link for 7by7's benefit. I didn't track down all the details of the current UK scheme, but I have a feeling 7by7 will know it.

Oooops ---- apparently EU is considering stopping such schemes .........

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-14-18_en.htm

[nontabury]

I wonder if an independent Scotland would have a "Golden Visa" scheme for dis-enfranchised English/Welsh/Northern Irish folks -- the "new UKsians" and others. Scotland is well known for financial astuteness and high living standards -- could be a big money spinner,,,,,,,,,

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27674135

Link for 7by7's benefit. I didn't track down all the details of the current UK scheme, but I have a feeling 7by7 will know it.

Oooops ---- apparently EU is considering stopping such schemes .........

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-14-18_en.htm

Thanks for the laugh, "Scotland is well known for financial astuteness" Pity it didn't apply to the last two Chancellors of the Exchequer in the Labour lead government. Then of course we could continue on discussing the Bank of Scotland who were Taken Over by the Halifax Building Society in 2001, you will recall that Alex Salmonds then like a little child put pressure on the Scottish lead Labour government to insist that the headquarters of the new HBOS would be situated in Edinburgh, leading again to an example of Scottish financial astuteness for which the whole of the UK population is still paying, in addition to the loss of many jobs in Halifax, an area already suffering high unemployment to a more prosperous area. Hopefully these jobs will be returned to the rest of the UK in 2016 along with tens of thousands of others.

Then of course we have the Royal Bank of Scotland who after merging with the larger English Natwest bank strangely saw it's headquarters moved to Edinburgh, again at the cost of many jobs in the rest of the UK. This lead to more astute Scottish management, which in turn resulted in the British Government ( the Tax payer) having to take a very large stake in the bank,facilitated with the agreement of the then Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer.

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[jpinx]

Thanks for the laugh, "Scotland is well known for financial astuteness" Pity it didn't apply to the last two Chancellors of the Exchequer in the Labour lead government. Then of course we could continue on discussing the Bank of Scotland who were Taken Over by the Halifax Building Society in 2001, you will recall that Alex Salmonds then like a little child put pressure on the Scottish lead Labour government to insist that the headquarters of the new HBOS would be situated in Edinburgh, leading again to an example of Scottish financial astuteness for which the whole of the UK population is still paying, in addition to the loss of many jobs in Halifax, an area already suffering high unemployment to a more prosperous area. Hopefully these jobs will be returned to the rest of the UK in 2016 along with tens of thousands of others.

Then of course we have the Royal Bank of Scotland who after merging with the larger English Natwest bank strangely saw it's headquarters moved to Edinburgh, again at the cost of many jobs in the rest of the UK. This lead to more astute Scottish management, which in turn resulted in the British Government ( the Tax payer) having to take a very large stake in the bank,facilitated with the agreement of the then Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer.

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-----------------------------------

RBoS at the time of their demise was lead by Lawrence Fish, chairman, an American national.

and Bank of Scotland lead by Andy Hornby an English businessman,

[nontabury]

Something else that people seem to be forgetting - the trade from England to Scotland, which was something like £56 billion in 2011. There would be a lot of unhappy English business owners if the Chancellor was to spit out his dummy.

The total amount of exports from Scotland to the rest of the UK are approximately twice that of Scotland's export to the rest of the world.

Any business person will tell you "don't piss off your biggest customer"

The history of the Union between Scotland and the rest of the UK over the last 50yrs has been one of concession after concession to the Scott's, for what, to be governed by parties that are far over represented by their 10% of the population. To what end.The UK as it is today.

When the remaining UK is granted it's independence by the Scott's I believe the UK will be a far more prosperous and happy country. Thank you Scotland.

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[sandyf]

I think that when it comes to put pen to paper reality will kick in.

Many in Scotland do not like the English and their control, but there is the possibility that they hate change even more.

[RuamRudy]

Something else that people seem to be forgetting - the trade from England to Scotland, which was something like £56 billion in 2011. There would be a lot of unhappy English business owners if the Chancellor was to spit out his dummy.

The total amount of exports from Scotland to the rest of the UK are approximately twice that of Scotland's export to the rest of the world.

Any business person will tell you "don't piss off your biggest customer"

The history of the Union between Scotland and the rest of the UK over the last 50yrs has been one of concession after concession to the Scott's, for what, to be governed by parties that are far over represented by their 10% of the population. To what end.The UK as it is today.

When the remaining UK is granted it's independence by the Scott's I believe the UK will be a far more prosperous and happy country. Thank you Scotland.

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You are not talking politics, you are talking of top trumps economics, suggesting that the rUK government would put an obstacle in the way of their exports to Scotland out of spite?

[jpinx]

Something else that people seem to be forgetting - the trade from England to Scotland, which was something like £56 billion in 2011. There would be a lot of unhappy English business owners if the Chancellor was to spit out his dummy.

The total amount of exports from Scotland to the rest of the UK are approximately twice that of Scotland's export to the rest of the world.

Any business person will tell you "don't piss off your biggest customer"

The history of the Union between Scotland and the rest of the UK over the last 50yrs has been one of concession after concession to the Scott's, for what, to be governed by parties that are far over represented by their 10% of the population. To what end.The UK as it is today.

When the remaining UK is granted it's independence by the Scott's I believe the UK will be a far more prosperous and happy country. Thank you Scotland.

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Depends what is counted as an "export to rest of UK" You need to extract the goods exported to England in transit from your unsubstantiated figures

The last 50 years history shows pillaging of Scottish resources on an immense scale.

Representation notwithstanding - UK's government is dominated by English MP's and they agreed to the format of representation.

I truly hope that both Scotland *and* the remaining UK will be happier and more prosperous as comfortable neighbours. There'll be no need for the continuous bickering we see too much of.

[jpinx]

I think that when it comes to put pen to paper reality will kick in.

Many in Scotland do not like the English and their control, but there is the possibility that they hate change even more.

You really do not know what Scots like

[watcharacters]

.I wish every Scottish citizen well and I hope they like their new government.

[wigantojapan]

I see we have had more posts alleging lies from the No side; but have as yet had no comments from the pro independence lobby here on the proven lies about the finances of an independent Scotland which came to light via leaked documents from the SNP!

YES exactly THE LEAKED DOCUMENTS FROM THE SNP More than one way how to smoke a fox out...Seemed to have worked.A bit too deep for some people.

[wigantojapan]

There has never been a Uk NHS.

Two acts of parliament created the NHS in England(and Wales) and the NHS in Scotland. NI's assembly created their health service

. So there were 3 NHS bodies from the start and from 1969 when the NHS in Wales was created 4 NHS's

. So no UK NHS ever

In terms of treatment, if you have a very rare illness that requires specific specialised treatment that is only available in hospital in England then the same system that applies now will apply after independence.

That is NHS Scotland. will pay for the health care provided and you won't pay anything.

This only applies to treatment for rare condition where treatment is not available in Scotland.

The EHIC card wil operate as it does now.

There are many people with mental disorders who need specialist care in secure units only located in England and their parent health board picks up the bill for their care and treatment, etc.

In fact a similar practise happens between health boards within Scotland. For example nhs Lothian may buy care from NHS Borders if they cannot provide within their own health board. Simple, and no need for naysayers to make yet another mountain out of a molehill again.

Another question of course is why is there not the specialist units in Scotland in a better together UK?

Is this just your opinion, or have you copied and pasted it?

If the latter; a link please; not only because the forum rules require it, but also so we can assess the source; e.g. is it the UK government saying this or is it just more wishful thinking by the Yes campaign?

If the former; then I again ask the question left unanswered; why should residents of an independent Scotland be treated any differently when it comes to NHS treatment in the UK to residents of any other country which is independent of the UK?

Even non resident British citizens are only entitled to the most basic A&E care, the same as other non residents!

As previously stated i worked in the NHS and still have family members working in both NHS ENGLAND and NHS SCOTLAND so there you have it clear enough.No link needed.

NHS Scotland patients PAY LIKE Any One ELSE WHEN THEY GET TREATMENT IN ENGLAND..OR do you want them to be treated differently and NOT PAY.

If your desire is for Scottish patients to have to pay a higher price than other nationalities,then take it up with your representatives on the South of England..I am sure more than a few would welcome that.

Now a spokesperson for The great Ormond already made that clear...So go argue with them if you want an impartial non bias answer if you believe, and you do that everything or the majority of things i write and other supporters of independence are gullible and bias..

That was also confirmed by a specialist in the NHS Scotland go ask him.... links where provided for both on the video containing the subject matter

Can you also do us a big big favor by posting your believes on the numerous forums in Scotland....You certainly would turn a lot of undecided voters onto the yes side by your tone and neutral attitude ...

Its not the yes side who has their backs to the wall

At the moment Scottish residents, being also UK residents, do not pay for NHS treatment in another part of the UK. Except, of course, through their taxes just like the rest of us.

If you bothered to read the CAB link I provided earlier you would have seen that the same is not true of non UK residents; even if they are British citizens.

I have never said that residents of an independent Scotland should pay a higher price than other non UK residents.

What I am saying is that they should be treated in exactly the same way as other non UK residents.

Surely you are aware that even EU citizens with an EHIC card cannot come to the UK specifically for medical treatment on the NHS. The card only covers emergency treatment whilst they are here; as it does for UK citizens travelling in other EU states.

Why should residents of an independent Scotland be treated any differently to all other non UK residents?

It is obvious that this is yet another area where the Scottish independence lobby want to retain all the benefits of being part of the UK, whilst shedding all the responsibilities!

There is no benefit to Scotland at all,,as the NHS Scotland is independent and regarding the NHS will continue to be so, what ever the vote.

Easy enough to understand.

Scotland and its residents are not treated in anyway differently with regards to the NHS..If patients have to use a specialists department in England,,it is paid for,,not buy UK taxes,,but Scotland NHS.

The No campaign wanted to further that distortion of facts in their video and where found out very quickly,,

But possibly you are subscribing to the fact that of course we are better together, but if not ,the most vulnerable people that is A and e , we will leave them dying where they fall,,such compassionate bed fellows we have .After all we do have a template for that happening today already..

[wigantojapan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esV6pGo8UTI....

[wigantojapan]

[transam]

We will see.....................

Have you YES guys read about the Islands "perhaps" ambitions yet..........?

[wigantojapan]

Government confirms independence could generate west coast oil bonanza!http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/government-confirms-independence-could-generate-west-coast-oil-bonanza/#.U5AFJRt1_-U.facebook

[7by7]

Seems we are getting back to the oil thing again...........

Sorry, a flaw of mine, but when I see deliberate distortions of the truth that are designed to damage the cause of independence , I feel compelled to retort.

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Yet you seem happy to accept distortions of the truth which are designed to support the cause of independence.

Of which there have been many examples here.

Double standards?

[StreetCowboy]

Seems we are getting back to the oil thing again...........

Sorry, a flaw of mine, but when I see deliberate distortions of the truth that are designed to damage the cause of independence , I feel compelled to retort.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yet you seem happy to accept distortions of the truth which are designed to support the cause of independence.

Of which there have been many examples here.

Double standards?

I got ten quid too much in my wage packet one week. I never bothered mentioning it, as it would have cost more than ten quid in time and effort to sort it out... Anyway, the next week, my wage packet was ten quid short.

"Oi! This wage packet's ten quid short!"

"You never mentioned it last week, when it was ten quid over, did you?"

"Aye, well, anyone can be forgiven for making a mistake, but when it happens every week..."

[7by7]

Seems we are getting back to the oil thing again...........

Sorry, a flaw of mine, but when I see deliberate distortions of the truth that are designed to damage the cause of independence , I feel compelled to retort.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yet you seem happy to accept distortions of the truth which are designed to support the cause of independence.

Of which there have been many examples here.

Double standards?

I got ten quid too much in my wage packet one week. I never bothered mentioning it, as it would have cost more than ten quid in time and effort to sort it out... Anyway, the next week, my wage packet was ten quid short.

"Oi! This wage packet's ten quid short!"

"You never mentioned it last week, when it was ten quid over, did you?"

"Aye, well, anyone can be forgiven for making a mistake, but when it happens every week..."

That is relevant how?

[wigantojapan]

Seems we are getting back to the oil thing again...........

Sorry, a flaw of mine, but when I see deliberate distortions of the truth that are designed to damage the cause of independence , I feel compelled to retort.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yet you seem happy to accept distortions of the truth which are designed to support the cause of independence.

Of which there have been many examples here.

Double standards?

i do believe that the people who actually live,or have lived in Scotland have a better grasp of the Truth as you say it than yourself,,who at best is a passing tourist.

.A Scottish Unionist is a very different breed to an English ,Welsh or Irish Unionist for that matter,,though they are all in bed together as we speak.

After all England will be a much better together region without Scotland,,why are you so frightened,,,,you can always use your better together to create inequality in the North of the region named England,,,oops you are already doing that...and i thought it was a UK,,oh well you can always use your better together to create inequality in Wales...though maybe that is a part of England i am not sure....Truth from the papers..the newspapers or the politicians and you want an intelligent debate?....And i thought Scotland had modeled its Utopian idea on sussex,, must be true then,,,no food banks down there then,,,no welfare benefits cheats oh no,,, no tax evasion corporate leaders,,,well steady on old chap no need to be flippant,,we are better together at somethings are we,,,,,,smokescreen action