Dutch bar owner killed in Udon Thani

[zydeco]

Amazing how such a seemingly benign race of people can metamorph to murderers when there's money involved. Stories like this come to mind when I meet farang tourists harping on about what friendly people the Thais are. And so they are... The nicest people money can buy.

Thais are no different than anyone else. Some are good. Some are bad. I have had a few occasions where Thais could have easly cheated me out of large amounts of money, but were too honest to do so.

You're right. Good and bad people exist everywhere. But that is not what ultimately maintains a cohesive, relatively peaceful, progressive society where diverse interests are satisfied. That takes some understanding of the concept of Enlightened Self Interest, something that is mostly missing in this country, where a Hobbbesian "war of all against all," is an increasing reality.

[ratcatcher]

An inconsequential comment to this travesty. His name doesn't appear to be Dutch....Looks more English to me, but never mind...Hope they catch the perps.

A shot-across-the-bow to us inveterate optimists, who think they live in a similarly safe and policed place to what they are accustomed to.

It is Thai wifey who keeps up the 'alert level' for me....Constantly telling me not to be so trusting of Thai people, which route to take home late at night, never stopping for people seeking a ride, even if they are Monks, etc,. etc.

I know this is overgeneralizing and not fair to the Thai people as a whole, who treat me with the utmost respect to which I reciprocate in kind.

If not for warnings from her, I would automatically interact with inquiring Thai's at my front gate, perhaps the same way this person did..........Like the saying goes, "But for the grace of God, there go I".

His name doesn't appear to be Dutch....Looks more English to me,

Frederik Franciscus Lelie. about as English as Robin van Persie.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelie_(geslacht)

van Persie's English?

Ratcatcher didn't say that.

Thanks gj. It seems my comment went over his head at the same altitude as his avatar.

There's always one.

[Chicog]

Thailand is dangerous, no doubt; remember the Aussie woman stabbed to death in Phuket last year for a few hundred baht so some lowlife could pay his restaurant bill?

But I remember a colleague of mine back in London who had an interview with a banker who failed to turn up (pre mobile phone days). He was cursing him until he found out that the guy had been selected completely at random by some recently released mentally ill person who was hearing voices, and had been stabbed to death on a London street in broad daylight.

However, no doubt that you can increase your chances of becoming a victim by the wrong behaviour. Needless displays of wealth in front of unscrupulous poor people is never a good idea, and if you are handling money on a regular basis, a few simple personal security tips should be followed (not sticking to a set pattern, staying in public areas, keeping your eye on people, etc.).

[fatdrunkandstupid]

Latest reports from Thai news sources say that the deceased is 68 year old Frederick Fransilekus from The Netherlands. Owner of the MODEL S 59 pub in Udon Thani. He has been living in Thailand for 5 years and is "well know" in the girlie bar scene there. Frequently seen in the company of different female companions.

He was found by a construction worker lady working at a site across the road from the deceased's house.When she arrived for work in the morning, whilst she was parking her car, she noticed a large blood trail leading into the house from outside. She followed it and found the crime scene. She noted that he was was fully clothed and was still wearing his watch and gold ring.

Another witness, a construction worker guarding the construction site over night said he heard a loud argument in English at 4.00am. After that he heard the sound of a vehicle start up then it was turned off a short time later. He also heard the the front gate of the deceased's house opening and closing several times. He said he wasn't alarmed as he just thought the deceased had another argument with another " girlfriend" which he had witness many times before.

This puts a different spin on the situation. Loud argument, "girlfriend"....slit throat....possibly the wrong ladyboy that night? Either way RIP.

No new spin. Just ineptitude on the behalf of the robbers. Ineptitude is the rule with all Thai workers, not the exception.

[mercman24]

reply to ratcatcher, nice one ha ha, and do some of you posters ever read the postings on here, right from the "GET-GO" it said the BAR MANAGER done this aweful deed, but NO, some of you had to go off totally and make up your own stories as to the probable cause of this killing, READ WHAT IS BEING SAID FOR CHRIST SAKE, or not bother posting, or does one get a medal for the most posts on this site,

[steven100]

The wife probably had the manager hired on her request. Old friend maybe, Isan has high murder rate of falangs per capita. Wifes, boyfriends, machete choping also.

geez ... thank's for warning me about Issan , i was going to move there next month but now I think I'll stay put in Narathiwat, Pattani, Songkhla and Yala ....

[smovi57]

The wife probably had the manager hired on her request. Old friend maybe, Isan has high murder rate of falangs per capita. Wifes, boyfriends, machete choping also.

geez ... thank's for warning me about Issan , i was going to move there next month but now I think I'll stay put in Narathiwat, Pattani, Songkhla and Yala ....

A falang was just walking down the road there and was machete attacked died before he made back to bangkok.

[Deano74]

1st of all condolences to the friends and family for their tragic and unnecessary loss.

2nd, what is it with these response personnel (police and ambulance) posing and pointing!!?? xxxxxxxxxxxx!!! Like it's a trophy shot or something!

3rd, It seems that many successful falang business people in Thailand end up either dead or getting xxxxxx over by Thai business partners/partners/partners family members and or friends!

[tropo]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

Thanks for the heads up, but I'm staying.

People are murdered all over the world.

Yes, foreigners are a special target - one must be careful.

[Carib]

1st of all condolences to the friends and family for their tragic and unnecessary loss.

2nd, what is it with these response personnel (police and ambulance) posing and pointing!!?? xxxxxxxx pigs!!! Like it's a trophy shot or something!

3rd, It seems that many successful falang business people in Thailand end up either dead or getting xxxxxxx over by Thai business partners/partners/partners family members and or friends!

1 Agree

2 Just because it is you who doesn't understand the local habits it doesn't give you the right to call others <deleted> pigs,

3 Nonsense.

[manxninja]

Lesson learnt here do what I do, carry a suitable defense knife, doesn't have to be big a five inch blade will suffice.

At least you have a fighting chance.

Saying that flashing the cash is the number one sin in a poor country, hope the old boy rests in peace, not a nice way to go.

[speedtripler]

Lesson learnt here do what I do, carry a suitable defense knife, doesn't have to be big a five inch blade will suffice.

At least you have a fighting chance.

Saying that flashing the cash is the number one sin in a poor country, hope the old boy rests in peace, not a nice way to go.

3.5" is plenty for a close range flick knife

5" doesnt fold into the pocket so easily

[ggt]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

Thank you for expressing what many of us know to be a fact...but often shy away from saying...because of the backlash from the Thailand is the most wonderful place on earth...crowd...there is a very dark and violent undercurrent that most tourist never see or hear about...in the Land of Lies...

[DerkMR]

Police will not follow up on crimes with unimportant people.

The complete juridical system is not following up anything but cases against the ones too weak to escape or buy their way out.

Heard anything about the red bull heir killing a policemen driving drugged & drunk?

Heard anything about a former PM, convicted but getting a new passport?

Heard anything about a opposition leader appearing on stages but the active arrest warrant is not executed?

Heard anything about a caretaker PM not appearing in front of the court when ordered to?

Bye,

Derk

[HooHaa]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

the gentleman in question was NOT retired.

hey, but draw your own parallels.

[davejones23]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

Maybe that says something of the type of people you hang out with. I don't know anyone who's even been assaulted, let alone died an unnatural death here. I'm amazed that you know so many.Where do you live and how did they die? And what exactly do you mean by unnatural? Do you mean they were murdered.

[Loles]

Rest in Peace Amigo.

Amazing TH again.

I can imegine when the police will show those 2 idiots young boys (42 Kg / piece) to the press, they will seem 2 bastard rabbits with full body tattoo.

Of course they can't get death penalty reason of their age, but may be next time, when they kill the next victim, they can be hanged as they deserved alerady NOW.

[sirchai]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

the gentleman in question was NOT retired.

hey, but draw your own parallels.

Personally known means that he'd met them all, before they got killed? Have lost some friends, but none was killed in twelve years.

Never heard of one in Sisaket and Ubon either.

"At least ten people" could turn out to be 100? What does unnaturally for thus guy mean? Apparently , no need to meet MaiChai, Chai Mai Khrap?-

[harleyd61]

Spoke to him last august,

nice man, relax, good sense of humor.

So money is the reason, to take a life

RIP sad way to go....

[peecee]

An inconsequential comment to this travesty. His name doesn't appear to be Dutch....Looks more English to me, but never mind...Hope they catch the perps.

A shot-across-the-bow to us inveterate optimists, who think they live in a similarly safe and policed place to what they are accustomed to.

It is Thai wifey who keeps up the 'alert level' for me....Constantly telling me not to be so trusting of Thai people, which route to take home late at night, never stopping for people seeking a ride, even if they are Monks, etc,. etc.

I know this is overgeneralizing and not fair to the Thai people as a whole, who treat me with the utmost respect to which I reciprocate in kind.

If not for warnings from her, I would automatically interact with inquiring Thai's at my front gate, perhaps the same way this person did..........Like the saying goes, "But for the grace of God, there go I".

His name doesn't appear to be Dutch....Looks more English to me,

Frederik Franciscus Lelie. about as English as Robin van Persie.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelie_(geslacht)

van Persie's English?

Ratcatcher didn't say that.

I know; but to an American who's van Persie? Just how many van P's are English, certain to be quite a few US van P's. I thought it was a bit off speculating wherever he hailed from as he was clearly Dutch, the guy's dead and that's very sad.

[peecee]

Seems like money was a motivator - to repay gambling debts - but I would bet a pound to a penny that the bar owner refused to lend his manager the necessary...

Speculative to say the least; the poor guy may never have known his bar manager had gambling debts and almost certainly didn't know about his violent past!

[angiud]

An insulting offending post and two replies were deleted

[Dogmatix]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

I have known two farangs who mysteriously fell from hotel rooftops in provincial towns after getting into business disputes with well connected players in those provinces. In both cases the police concluded they were open and shut cases of suicide.

[thrilled]

The last time that I was in Udon this farang happened to tell me that A hit there cost between 100000-200000 baht.It also take care of the law.So I wouldn't doubt it might not have been just for A robbery.

[geriatrickid]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

Most retirees need not worry as they most likely will not be operating a beer bar, nor making income from bar fines.

I suggest you do some research on the Models 59 Bar and find out exactly the type of bar it was and its recent history. You can do your own search and read the delightful stories.

And yes indeed it is reported that the owner's "right hand man" has been arrested and accused of the murder.

What a disgraceful post! I knew it'd just be a matter of time before the Thaier-than-Thai apologists stunk up the thread by somehow blaming the victim. After all, they can't have such accusations of murder pointed at their beloved Thais without some kind of response to deflect the blame.

You see the same posters pop up every time an expat or tourist is slaughtered.

Thaier, than Thai? Deflecting the blame? No and No.

A claim was made that Thailand is a violent place, and that it is not safe for retirees.. I point out that there was important contributing factor which does not affect most retirees and you go off on a tangent with hyperbole. The situation is very, very different than the living conditions that the vast majority of retirees will experience. That vast majority of retirees live their lives in a peaceful manner without fear of attack or violent crime. They also have enough common sense not to get involved in a business that has an elevated risk of danger and where one will inevitably have to transact with criminals and people who are given to violence. I've seen that bar,as I have many of the other bars in Udon Thani town. Some are safer than others. This wasn't a bar in that catered to families or business people, or even students on vacation. It was a place with its own history. It is you who wants to avoid the unpleasant issue of a bar, reportedly shut down by the police following a brutal assault of a customer that resulted in the customer having his head cut open. It is you that wants to deflect away from the fact that the bar made income from the trade in human flesh. I can think of more responsible ways than making income from prostitutes. That doesn't excuse or deflect away from a murder, but puts the crime in context.

You do not know the actual circumstances, but instead wish to embrace the convoluted explanations of a conspiracy or a plot against foreigners. The reality is that most of these bar related murders involve business dealings gone awry. Sometimes it is non payment of wages, or debts and sometimes it is a love mess where the owner dips into the candy jar of women once too often. Other times it is a crime of opportunity. We don't know the facts. However, the reality is that this crime has absolutely no impact on the lives of the thousands foreign retirees in Thailand. The reality is that for those retirees who do not go bars like Model '59 and have no dealings with the type of people associated in that type of business, they have a negligible risk of physical harm.

[geriatrickid]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

Thank you for expressing what many of us know to be a fact...but often shy away from saying...because of the backlash from the Thailand is the most wonderful place on earth...crowd...there is a very dark and violent undercurrent that most tourist never see or hear about...in the Land of Lies...

You are making an erroneous conclusion. You have compared the risk profile of retirees to that of an operator of a beer bar. You might as well compare the risk profile of people who put oil in their car engine with offshore oil workers. They both are handling oil.

[kimbathewhitelion]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

Most retirees need not worry as they most likely will not be operating a beer bar, nor making income from bar fines.

I suggest you do some research on the Models 59 Bar and find out exactly the type of bar it was and its recent history. You can do your own search and read the delightful stories.

And yes indeed it is reported that the owner's "right hand man" has been arrested and accused of the murder.

What a disgraceful post! I knew it'd just be a matter of time before the Thaier-than-Thai apologists stunk up the thread by somehow blaming the victim. After all, they can't have such accusations of murder pointed at their beloved Thais without some kind of response to deflect the blame.

You see the same posters pop up every time an expat or tourist is slaughtered.

Thaier, than Thai? Deflecting the blame? No and No.

A claim was made that Thailand is a violent place, and that it is not safe for retirees.. I point out that there was important contributing factor which does not affect most retirees and you go off on a tangent with hyperbole. The situation is very, very different than the living conditions that the vast majority of retirees will experience. That vast majority of retirees live their lives in a peaceful manner without fear of attack or violent crime. They also have enough common sense not to get involved in a business that has an elevated risk of danger and where one will inevitably have to transact with criminals and people who are given to violence. I've seen that bar,as I have many of the other bars in Udon Thani town. Some are safer than others. This wasn't a bar in that catered to families or business people, or even students on vacation. It was a place with its own history. It is you who wants to avoid the unpleasant issue of a bar, reportedly shut down by the police following a brutal assault of a customer that resulted in the customer having his head cut open. It is you that wants to deflect away from the fact that the bar made income from the trade in human flesh. I can think of more responsible ways than making income from prostitutes. That doesn't excuse or deflect away from a murder, but puts the crime in context.

You do not know the actual circumstances, but instead wish to embrace the convoluted explanations of a conspiracy or a plot against foreigners. The reality is that most of these bar related murders involve business dealings gone awry. Sometimes it is non payment of wages, or debts and sometimes it is a love mess where the owner dips into the candy jar of women once too often. Other times it is a crime of opportunity. We don't know the facts. However, the reality is that this crime has absolutely no impact on the lives of the thousands foreign retirees in Thailand. The reality is that for those retirees who do not go bars like Model '59 and have no dealings with the type of people associated in that type of business, they have a negligible risk of physical harm.

Well said, now shall the morning begin; the topic closed to the ignorants and the happy retired left to their happy lifes.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[kimbathewhitelion]

Also this was a good man, let not judge...let him rest.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[speedtripler]

Rest in Peace Amigo.

Amazing TH again.

I can imegine when the police will show those 2 idiots young boys (42 Kg / piece) to the press, they will seem 2 bastard rabbits with full body tattoo.

Of course they can't get death penalty reason of their age, but may be next time, when they kill the next victim, they can be hanged as they deserved alerady NOW.

i dont think anyone gets the death penalty anymore although its still legally available ........

last execution says 2002 but another source quotes summer of 2009

[johnefallis]

Hopefully this is a warning to those thinking of retiring in Thailand. Its a violent place and not as safe as you may think. Needless to say i have personally known at least 10 people who have died unnaturally in this country.

I have lived in Thailand for 14 years have not seen as much as a fist fight since leaving Pattaya over a decade ago, seen more problems in the states on my visits, that to me indicates where the real safety is in rural Thailand away from the Farang ghetto cities that are very violent areas caused by locals, many by drunk Farangs.

May you rest in Peace!

Cheers

Agreed