Double-decker bus may be banned from hilly roads in Thailand

[Rorri]

bangkokheat, on 26 Mar 2014 - 08:13, said:

side stepping the real issue here, untrained uneducated drivers and REAL stiff penalties

There are many things that can cause these accidents, but mostly yes, untrained drivers and speed. A contributing factor, which the Dept. of Transport is fully aware of, is that many, if not all, of these buses are illegal. They contravene Thailand's design regs which states the bus must be built with a wider track. Most are not, they are built on the same chassis/track as a single decked bus. Nothing will change because there are too many people involved and too much baht.

[wilcopops]

As Noi657 says...

It's not the buses, it's the poorly trained, licence-obtained-from-a-Christmas-cracker 'drivers' operating the bloody things!

Who the hell overtakes, on a blind bend, single carriage way road, in the mountains, in a vehicle the size of an articulated truck? Answer....Thai bus drivers!

This is a highly simplistic take on what happened with little consideration to the whole thing.

firstly we don't know for sure what happened it is largely based what some police officer decided on the spur of the moment.

But what lostmebike has failed to consider is what happened after the driver lost control - for whatever reason.

The vehicle's behaviour in an incident is crucial in relation to passenger safety.

firstly the design makes the vehicle unwieldy, and then the body itself disintegrates leaving the passengers totally exposed ....... in other countries where public transport construction is regulated death tolls in this sort of incident can be much lower.

again looking at the problem in terms of single issues is myopic and unconstructive.

[allan michaud]

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These comments support further the argument to avoid buses all together and to take the train when circumstances permit,

Thai trains are hardly much better, they seem to fall off the tracks on a daily basis.

[wilcopops]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

These comments support further the argument to avoid buses all together and to take the train when circumstances permit,

Thai trains are hardly much better, they seem to fall off the tracks on a daily basis.

Now you're mixing up two situations here.

Firstly are trains safer than roads - the answer is undoubtedly and resoundingly YES

Secondly - Do Thai railways have acceptable standards of safety for RAILWAYS? - Probably not.

[lostmebike]

As Noi657 says...

It's not the buses, it's the poorly trained, licence-obtained-from-a-Christmas-cracker 'drivers' operating the bloody things!

Who the hell overtakes, on a blind bend, single carriage way road, in the mountains, in a vehicle the size of an articulated truck? Answer....Thai bus drivers!

This is a highly simplistic take on what happened with little consideration to the whole thing.

firstly we don't know for sure what happened it is largely based what some police officer decided on the spur of the moment.

But what lostmebike has failed to consider is what happened after the driver lost control - for whatever reason.

The vehicle's behaviour in an incident is crucial in relation to passenger safety.

firstly the design makes the vehicle unwieldy, and then the body itself disintegrates leaving the passengers totally exposed ....... in other countries where public transport construction is regulated death tolls in this sort of incident can be much lower.

again looking at the problem in terms of single issues is myopic and unconstructive.

Sure certain vehicles are designed for certain roads, that's obvious one would assume.

I was, as I hope you are aware of, generalizing about bus safety as a whole in Thailand.

Even more nonconstructive than my comment are the continual promises from the Government's Land Transport Department of tougher regulations and fines and .... on and on ..... yet nothing changes, only more people die and get seriously hurt. Then people will rant rather than pass 'constructive' criticism as nothing changes.

You even said yourself...

firstly we don't know for sure what happened it is largely based what some police officer decided on the spur of the moment

... so it's hard to dissect what really happened wouldn't you say?

I stand by my rant (LOL), IMO, the whole bus service needs to be rigorously regulated and until it isn't, we will continue to have these massive vehicles overtaking on blind bends and .....

[Benmart]

I notice out side the immigration office in Jomtien one shop is using Pino staff.

So much better.

No scowl or lemon chewing and there very helpful and polite.

Easy to spot which shop, its crowded, the other is now dead!

I can see a day when Thailand will run smoothly run by other nationalitys!

So my idea -

Instead of employing Falang bus drivers to teach English.

Employ them to drive the buses!

Oh, i get it now. Pinoy. The missing "y" threw me.

[clockman]

Never mind, they are well on there way. To reach the goal of number one. Road deaths in the world!

[Tomtomtom69]

Actually, while this doesn't get to the root of the problem, perhaps banning double decker buses from mountainous roads is a step in the right direction. Due to their height, double decker buses have a higher center of gravity than normal buses and are more likely to tip over on mountainous roads. I don't understand why Thailand has no urban double decker buses but has a strange obsession with long distance double decker buses. Surely the opposite would make more sense? Besides, urban buses are usually filled to capacity, especially during rush hour.

[wilcopops]

As Noi657 says...

It's not the buses, it's the poorly trained, licence-obtained-from-a-Christmas-cracker 'drivers' operating the bloody things!

Who the hell overtakes, on a blind bend, single carriage way road, in the mountains, in a vehicle the size of an articulated truck? Answer....Thai bus drivers!

This is a highly simplistic take on what happened with little consideration to the whole thing.

firstly we don't know for sure what happened it is largely based what some police officer decided on the spur of the moment.

But what lostmebike has failed to consider is what happened after the driver lost control - for whatever reason.

The vehicle's behaviour in an incident is crucial in relation to passenger safety.

firstly the design makes the vehicle unwieldy, and then the body itself disintegrates leaving the passengers totally exposed ....... in other countries where public transport construction is regulated death tolls in this sort of incident can be much lower.

again looking at the problem in terms of single issues is myopic and unconstructive.

Sure certain vehicles are designed for certain roads, that's obvious one would assume.

I was, as I hope you are aware of, generalizing about bus safety as a whole in Thailand.

Even more nonconstructive than my comment are the continual promises from the Government's Land Transport Department of tougher regulations and fines and .... on and on ..... yet nothing changes, only more people die and get seriously hurt. Then people will rant rather than pass 'constructive' criticism as nothing changes.

You even said yourself...

firstly we don't know for sure what happened it is largely based what some police officer decided on the spur of the moment

... so it's hard to dissect what really happened wouldn't you say?

I stand by my rant (LOL), IMO, the whole bus service needs to be rigorously regulated and until it isn't, we will continue to have these massive vehicles overtaking on blind bends and .....

I'm sorry but you appear to have completely missed the point and your comment "Sure certain vehicles are designed for certain roads" - is a complete non-sequitor.

​It IS too a certain degree the buses so your opening comment is just downright inaccurate and you still don't seem to understand that with any vehicle a major factor is how it performs in the EVENT OF AN INCIDENT or COLLISION. It really doesn't matter than who the driver is.

[Emster23]

There are numerous areas in bus transportation in dire need of improvement, including the buses. However, the quickest, most cost effective measure would be to have qualified drivers, which explains in some measure why so many posters suggest that remedy. Why such resistence to this from bus companies? One would think they have an interest in keeping buses on the road, not in ravines.... another example of "Thai logic"? I really don't know....

[lostmebike]

As Noi657 says...

It's not the buses, it's the poorly trained, licence-obtained-from-a-Christmas-cracker 'drivers' operating the bloody things!

Who the hell overtakes, on a blind bend, single carriage way road, in the mountains, in a vehicle the size of an articulated truck? Answer....Thai bus drivers!

This is a highly simplistic take on what happened with little consideration to the whole thing.

firstly we don't know for sure what happened it is largely based what some police officer decided on the spur of the moment.

But what lostmebike has failed to consider is what happened after the driver lost control - for whatever reason.

The vehicle's behaviour in an incident is crucial in relation to passenger safety.

firstly the design makes the vehicle unwieldy, and then the body itself disintegrates leaving the passengers totally exposed ....... in other countries where public transport construction is regulated death tolls in this sort of incident can be much lower.

again looking at the problem in terms of single issues is myopic and unconstructive.

Sure certain vehicles are designed for certain roads, that's obvious one would assume.

I was, as I hope you are aware of, generalizing about bus safety as a whole in Thailand.

Even more nonconstructive than my comment are the continual promises from the Government's Land Transport Department of tougher regulations and fines and .... on and on ..... yet nothing changes, only more people die and get seriously hurt. Then people will rant rather than pass 'constructive' criticism as nothing changes.

You even said yourself...

firstly we don't know for sure what happened it is largely based what some police officer decided on the spur of the moment

... so it's hard to dissect what really happened wouldn't you say?

I stand by my rant (LOL), IMO, the whole bus service needs to be rigorously regulated and until it isn't, we will continue to have these massive vehicles overtaking on blind bends and .....

I'm sorry but you appear to have completely missed the point and your comment "Sure certain vehicles are designed for certain roads" - is a complete non-sequitor.

​It IS too a certain degree the buses so your opening comment is just downright inaccurate and you still don't seem to understand that with any vehicle a major factor is how it performs in the EVENT OF AN INCIDENT or COLLISION. It really doesn't matter than who the driver is.

I completely understand that the vehicle in question may have 'under performed' due to what ever reasons (lack of regulation again possibly???) and MAYBE it wasn't driver error but but are you telling me, sorry this thread that the bus service here in Thailand is safe and not needing a complete overhaul? I was, as previously said, GENERALIZING about the bus service as a whole or have you completely missed the point?

[wilcopops]

lostmebike -

"It's not the buses, it's the poorly trained, licence-obtained-from-a-Christmas-cracker 'drivers' operating the bloody things!"

"Sure certain vehicles are designed for certain roads, that's obvious one would assume."

"are you telling me, sorry this thread that the bus service here in Thailand is safe and not needing a complete overhaul?"

i'm sorry but these comments are wildly inaccurate

​you made an untenable post - I pointed out why and your subsequent posts don't change the situation at all.

Edited March 26, 2014 by wilcopops

[harada]

Another crackdown ?

[lostmebike]

lostmebike -

"It's not the buses, it's the poorly trained, licence-obtained-from-a-Christmas-cracker 'drivers' operating the bloody things!"

"Sure certain vehicles are designed for certain roads, that's obvious one would assume."

"are you telling me, sorry this thread that the bus service here in Thailand is safe and not needing a complete overhaul?"

i'm sorry but these comments are wildly inaccurate

​you made an untenable post - I pointed out why and subsequent posts don't change the situation at all.

Untenable??? And what? Your posts are the gospel according to wilcopops? Give us a break man.

You do understand 'generalize' don't you? Which is what I was doing before you tried to tell me how wrong I am.

Answer the question....does the bus service, in your authoritative opinion, need an overhaul?

Are you telling us the bus service is safe here in Thailand?

Are you telling us you've never met a bus coming at you, in your lane, at speed?

Are you telling us you've never witnessed a bus accident or passed the result of one?

Maybe you don't get out much these days and just can't answer these questions based on your own experiences.

BTW, nothing you post will change what most posters know to be true about the 'skills' of bus drivers here in Thailand.

[wilcopops]

lostmebike -

"It's not the buses, it's the poorly trained, licence-obtained-from-a-Christmas-cracker 'drivers' operating the bloody things!"

"Sure certain vehicles are designed for certain roads, that's obvious one would assume."

"are you telling me, sorry this thread that the bus service here in Thailand is safe and not needing a complete overhaul?"

i'm sorry but these comments are wildly inaccurate

​you made an untenable post - I pointed out why and subsequent posts don't change the situation at all.

Untenable??? And what? Your posts are the gospel according to wilcopops? Give us a break man.

You do understand 'generalize' don't you? Which is what I was doing before you tried to tell me how wrong I am.

Answer the question....does the bus service, in your authoritative opinion, need an overhaul?

Are you telling us the bus service is safe here in Thailand?

Are you telling us you've never met a bus coming at you, in your lane, at speed?

Are you telling us you've never witnessed a bus accident or passed the result of one?

Maybe you don't get out much these days and just can't answer these questions based on your own experiences.

BTW, nothing you post will change what most posters know to be true about the 'skills' of bus drivers here in Thailand.

Now you're just being facile.

my views on this subject are quite clearly laid out in my previous posts, if you disagree with a point I've made, why not pick up on it and ask, rather than just mithering on about single or hypothetical incidents.

you made a mistake and posted nonsense - live with that and move on.

Edited March 26, 2014 by wilcopops

[Rimmer]

One off topic none sense post removed

[NoshowJones]

Anyone know if they have official HGV licenses in Thailand?

Judging by the shocking way that HGV's change lanes so fast without looking or indicating on the motorway I personally dont Doubt it

"PSV" for buses?

PCV actually.

[tracklayer]

Thailand is at least 56 years behind the UK in Bus safety !!

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/testing-london-buses.

Plus the drivers are trained in the UK. The last big coach crash was considered a national tragedy not passed off as oops!

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/nov/27/heathrow-coach-driver-crash-uk. The driver killed three people and was jailed !

I am surprised there as many as 20000 of these death trap coaches operating in Thailand I would have thought the daily toll would have reduced the numbers.

As for the minibuses like most people in Thailand we have all witnessed at least one crash.

The last one I got mixed up in was a head on between the minibus and a lorry. The lorry had jacked-knifed on a steep incline. The minibus passengers were all wearing seatbelts!! (There was farang in the minibus I guess he suggested it) Unfortunately the belts were attached to the seats. The minibus was obviously being used for dual purpose. Non of the seats were bolted down. They has put extra long bolts on the seats so they could drop them into position. There were about 12 people plus seats in the front half of the minibus.All attached to each other. Not nice. We had to disentangle the mess through the rear doors. Pull seat back undo seat lets throw seat out followed by passengers. then tackle the next row of seats etc. The damage to the bus was light the mess inside was stupid

Would I choose between a double decker bus and a minibus. No way would I travel in either.

Advice

If you use a minibus check your seat is fixed down.

If you arrive at an accident stop to help (Thais don't help) make sure you get your vehicle to the far side of the accident. This stops it being hit by another vehicle but also means when you have done all you can to help, you can sneak off and not get involved in the bureaucracy. This is UK learnt where the police are bloody minded and ensure a road is closed for hours to justify their existence.

[Tomtomtom69]

Chatchart: Driver negligence caused tragic coach accident in Tak

TAK, 26 March 2014 (NNT) – Minister of Transport Chatchart Sitthiphan indicated on Tuesday that preliminary findings suggested the driver of the coach that plunged down a cliff in Tak had been speeding and trying to overtake the car in front, before the coach slipped out of the curve.

30 people lost their lives in the coach incident that occurred on Monday night on mountainous terrain in Tak province. The passengers were staff at Tha Sai Luat Municipality in Tak who were on a field trip to Laos. 24 persons suffered injuries.

Mr. Chatchart said part of the cause stemmed from the driver's negligence. However, he is having the Highways Department survey the route to create a new design that would reduce the chance of accidents in the future. Land Transport Department engineers will also be inspecting the route.

The minister then visited survivors of the accident and relatives of the deceased at Taksin Maharat Hospital, which was encountering the problem of insufficient space in the morgue.

-- NNT 2014-03-26

Tha Sai Luat is Mae Sot right on the Burmese border. So the bus barely managed to get to Tak before it crashed. One would think a driver from that part of Thailand would be better used to driving that mountainous 80km stretch, of which the last 20km to Tak is a dual carriageway and already on top of the plateau hence can no longer be considered mountainous.

If they were on route to Laos then they would have passed through a lot of "challenging" terrain and conditions - particularly the even more winding stretch between Phitsanulok and Chumphae in Khon Kaen province. Not to mention driving on the right in Laos with your steering wheel on the right on roads which generally don't have a shoulder and are often raised above the ground.

RIP all.

[Hawkup2000]

What busses are refered to as "home made"? I always tought that those double-deckers, often with graffiti or some cartoon painted on them, were Volvos or Scanias.

[sirchai]

The team will take into consideration many factors such as the condition of the road as well as the condition of the wreck of the bus in order to ascertain the actual cause of the accident.

If they handle it as the educational system, we might see a change in 30 years. The condition of the Wreck is pretty obvious. Why do people in let;s say Germany have to undergo serious physical, as well as psychological tests?

I drove a cab on weekends, when I studied at university to make some pocket money.Had to make many tests, talk to a Psychologist, had to make a city knowledge test, plus a certain amount of km without an accident to be allowed to drive passengers around.

Last rime when I drove home from Ubon to Sisaket, doing already 125 km/h a speeding double Decker on its way to Chiang Mai took over on the right side. I mean THE right side, with traffic coming from the other side. Is he still driving now? I'd assume so. None of the rear lights worked, which shocked me for a sec.

[sirchai]

What busses are refered to as "home made"? I always tought that those double-deckers, often with graffiti or some cartoon painted on them, were Volvos or Scanias.

NCA are using pretty good Mercedes Benz based buses with air suspension. Not too many companies have a Volvo, or Scania.

Easy to put such an emblem on a bus, nothing is copyright protected here.They don't have the personal and knowledge to make proper brake and other checks for such vehicles.

.

Edited March 26, 2014 by sirchai

[wilcopops]

The team will take into consideration many factors such as the condition of the road as well as the condition of the wreck of the bus in order to ascertain the actual cause of the accident.

If they handle it as the educational system, we might see a change in 30 years. The condition of the Wreck is pretty obvious. Why do people in let;s say Germany have to undergo serious physical, as well as psychological tests?

I drove a cab on weekends, when I studied at university to make some pocket money.Had to make many tests, talk to a Psychologist, had to make a city knowledge test, plus a certain amount of km without an accident to be allowed to drive passengers around.

Last rime when I drove home from Ubon to Sisaket, doing already 125 km/h a speeding double Decker on its way to Chiang Mai took over on the right side. I mean THE right side, with traffic coming from the other side. Is he still driving now? I'd assume so. None of the rear lights worked, which shocked me for a sec.

You've made a series of personal observations here.

Now - what are you suggesting should be done to help road safety in Thailand and why? Do you have any reasoning to back up any analysis you make?

[Rimmer]

Two Inflammatory posts removed:

In using Thai Visa I agree:

7) Respect fellow members by posting in a civil manner: do not launch personal attacks, or be hateful or insulting towards other members, ie No flaming

[sirchai]

The team will take into consideration many factors such as the condition of the road as well as the condition of the wreck of the bus in order to ascertain the actual cause of the accident.

If they handle it as the educational system, we might see a change in 30 years. The condition of the Wreck is pretty obvious. Why do people in let;s say Germany have to undergo serious physical, as well as psychological tests?

I drove a cab on weekends, when I studied at university to make some pocket money.Had to make many tests, talk to a Psychologist, had to make a city knowledge test, plus a certain amount of km without an accident to be allowed to drive passengers around.

Last rime when I drove home from Ubon to Sisaket, doing already 125 km/h a speeding double Decker on its way to Chiang Mai took over on the right side. I mean THE right side, with traffic coming from the other side. Is he still driving now? I'd assume so. None of the rear lights worked, which shocked me for a sec.

You've made a series of personal observations here.

Now - what are you suggesting should be done to help road safety in Thailand and why? Do you have any reasoning to back up any analysis you make?

I'd suggest you read my post again. Then live and drive cars and bigger bikes here for 13 years. Then work as an English teacher for ten. Kau tchai Boo?

[lostmebike]

The team will take into consideration many factors such as the condition of the road as well as the condition of the wreck of the bus in order to ascertain the actual cause of the accident.

If they handle it as the educational system, we might see a change in 30 years. The condition of the Wreck is pretty obvious. Why do people in let;s say Germany have to undergo serious physical, as well as psychological tests?

I drove a cab on weekends, when I studied at university to make some pocket money.Had to make many tests, talk to a Psychologist, had to make a city knowledge test, plus a certain amount of km without an accident to be allowed to drive passengers around.

Last rime when I drove home from Ubon to Sisaket, doing already 125 km/h a speeding double Decker on its way to Chiang Mai took over on the right side. I mean THE right side, with traffic coming from the other side. Is he still driving now? I'd assume so. None of the rear lights worked, which shocked me for a sec.

You've made a series of personal observations here.

Now - what are you suggesting should be done to help road safety in Thailand and why? Do you have any reasoning to back up any analysis you make?

I'd suggest you read my post again. Then live and drive cars and bigger bikes here for 13 years. Then work as an English teacher for ten. Kau tchai Boo?

Have you noticed how many replies he's given in this thread?

We're all wrong don't you know?

[wilcopops]

What busses are refered to as "home made"? I always tought that those double-deckers, often with graffiti or some cartoon painted on them, were Volvos or Scanias.

OMG! - Here is a classic example of how people don't understand the problems.

Firstly you've just seen a badge on a vehicle and assumed that it has any connection with the manufacturer.

In fact you might be right in many instances - but there's no guarantee.

Then consider how ALL buses are made........they are built on a chassis to client specifications, usually by a company outside the main manufacturer.

In Thailand it is not farfetched to call these buses HOMEMADE; they are often built in small backstreet operations on a CHASSIS - some of the chassis and running gear may well be of the manufacturer stated on the badge, but the rest is added on in Thailand with little or no regard to safety.

Building buses and coaches worldwide is often done by secondary "coach builders" who purchase the chassis and then build to customers spec....but in Europe this is governed by some pretty strict regulation. Especially in terms of the rigidity of the superstructure and such things as seat anchorage and seat belts.

so don't be fooled by a badge - in Thailand it means nothing.

[wilcopops]

The team will take into consideration many factors such as the condition of the road as well as the condition of the wreck of the bus in order to ascertain the actual cause of the accident.

If they handle it as the educational system, we might see a change in 30 years. The condition of the Wreck is pretty obvious. Why do people in let;s say Germany have to undergo serious physical, as well as psychological tests?

I drove a cab on weekends, when I studied at university to make some pocket money.Had to make many tests, talk to a Psychologist, had to make a city knowledge test, plus a certain amount of km without an accident to be allowed to drive passengers around.

Last rime when I drove home from Ubon to Sisaket, doing already 125 km/h a speeding double Decker on its way to Chiang Mai took over on the right side. I mean THE right side, with traffic coming from the other side. Is he still driving now? I'd assume so. None of the rear lights worked, which shocked me for a sec.

You've made a series of personal observations here.

Now - what are you suggesting should be done to help road safety in Thailand and why? Do you have any reasoning to back up any analysis you make?

I'd suggest you read my post again. Then live and drive cars and bigger bikes here for 13 years. Then work as an English teacher for ten. Kau tchai Boo?

You'll probably find that most of the drivers you critise have also been driving in Thailand for 10 or even 20 years....however it seems that is no guarantee of being a good driver or knowledge of road safety.

[wilcopops]

People’s thinking on road safety never ceases to amaze me.

If you are in hospital and a doctor tells you that you have to lose a leg, then most people will accept this...why? Because the man/woman is wearing a white coat and has a stethoscope. They see this as a symbol of authority or capability and “evidence of a 6 to 8 year training program.

But when it comes to things like Education or Road safety - where white coats are not in abundance, suddenly EVERYONE’s and expert!

Road Safety is a science - it needs to be read about researched and studied, you don’t make your mind up whilst you are driving about and what you see through your car windows.

Seeing is believing???? Sorry NO!

The personal witness -

“I saw a truck with......”

“I saw a bus that..... “

“I saw someone driving in a way that in my limited experience as a smug driver with an overinflated ego and irrational driving self esteem, I couldn’t interpret”

“I could have died......” (but you didn’t!)

One poster even likened Thai people to “monkeys” ........

So what? These observations (especially on their own) are WORTHLESS - or are they working on the theory that if you say something often enough, it must be true?

This kind of thing happens the world over.....

Time and again people post “I saw an accident” - NO YOU DIDN”T! you saw the aftermath of a road incident.

Then they have the audacity to come to conclusions, or rather make assumptions, about how it happened and furthermore, who’s to blame.... all based on observations made in the fleeting seconds it takes to drive past.

Come on! Even the most uneducated must realise that what you see is seldom reliable evidence; road safety involves collection and collation of data, scientific trials and testing and intelligent interpretation. Not nape-of-the-neck sound bites like banning everything and everyone or simplistic one-pill solutions.

Instead of reasoned analysis or suggestions or even observations we get a litany of personal anecdotes, misinterpreted observations and criticisms that seem based on a distasteful mix of ignorance and racial prejudice against Thai people.

[Zorro46]

I recently took a minibus visa run from Koh Samui to the Malaysian border.

The driver had 3 mobile phones and a walky talky to communicate with a second minibus from the same company.

The driver never stopped talking on his phones during the whole trip and driving very fast.

Most times he was holding 2 phones and talking to two different callers and many times he used all three mobiles and steered the mininbus with his knees.

It was horrendous.

On the way back to the port on the return journey a German or Russian woman passenger screamed at him to stop and he turned round and nearly threw her off the bus, but at least he eventually stopped and sullenly sulked for the last few miles.

This happens all too often on buses and taxis in Thailand and I am thinking of buying a Mobile phone signal scrambler to take on journeys with me.

Apparently when you switch it on a mobile phone message comes up saying No Signal!

Anyone know a good supplier?