Bangkok police stop 100 million Baht fake ATM card fraud

[MMarlow]

Interesting that this surfaces the same day as the other badly written article.

1) These are clone cards with data from an Italian bank being used in Thailand.(According to the article).

2) Thai Banks have no obligation to repay anybody if a clone card is used (unless it was skimmed from one of their machines), especially if it is from abroad.

3) As this is not a Thai bank issue, why do folk continually knock Thai banks. My Thai bank always sends an SMS for any transaction using my card, for me to check; so do my UK and HK bankers. The question folk should be asking is why aren't the Italian banks doing this. Certainly if you were an Italian using your card for predominantely domestic transactions you should ask your bank why they do not query 'out of pattern behaviour' such as withdrawals from outside of Italy.

4) When cards are cloned and not on White plastic, the skimmers will use any embossed or coloured plastic....often the bank identifier details on the card will not match the supposed bank i.e the identfying number maybe for HSBC but the card shows Citibank logo!

5) The cards shown are from Citi and Standard Chartered banks; both routinely use chip cards, neither has a significant retail banking operation in Thailand.

"5) The cards shown are from Citi and Standard Chartered banks; both routinely use chip cards, neither has a significant retail banking operation in Thailand."

Think both those banks would strongly disagree with you re their retail operations!

[sirchai]

You have to keep in mind that it's the Italian bank in this case who lose money, not the Thai banks. So this kind of offence tends to be dealt with leniently compared to if they stole the money from a Thai person.

This scam works because most of the ATM cards issued worldwide will be backwards compatible with the old technology that the Thai banks use. The problem is always the weakest link in the chain, which here is the continued use of magnetic stripe technology.

Interesting in the photo you see a card reader/encoder and a much smaller skimmer device. This kind of goes against their story that they were just being paid to withdraw the money.

These scumbags should stay at Bangkok Hilton for a few years, as it might help others to think twice if they do that.

Others go and work three shifts....

[unanimosity]

Until the Thai government will change the current penalties for such crimes, these scumbags will

continue to come here by their droves.. it seems to me that no one really care that 100's of millions

of baht are being stolen every year, who pays for all that damages? and who cover the costs? I wonder.

Not exactly rocket science. Credit card issuers are in no hurry to stem fraud because that is what allows them to keep their fees artificially high to "cover" the costs of fraud. In fact, they profit off of fraud. If they wanted to eliminate fraud they could. The fact that they don't suggests that they are happy with fraud as a cost of doing business that lets them overcharge. If they wanted to eliminate the fraud all they'd have to do is require the authorized cardholder to have a photo on the card and on file, then when a transaction authorization is queried facial recognition of the card, database, and person making the transaction would have to match. Would it slow things down? A bit, but the ATMs already have cameras and connectivity in place and would only need to modify the card reader to capture the card photo, nothing major. The issuer database would need to be upgraded but that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the money being lost on fraud.

[technologybytes]

There is a lot of confusion amongst a lot of the people posting on this subject.

Thailand has millions of chipless cards in circulation, the investment to change it all to chip cards and chip reading ATM's is massive.

This fraud is against the Italian bank, NOT the Thai bank. It's not the Thai's problem, the foreign bank have authorised the payment based on the information encoded on the cards.. the Thai banks lose nothing.

The Italian banks say that they will compensate their customers, in reality that means they will refund the ones who complain enough.

[technologybytes]

You have to keep in mind that it's the Italian bank in this case who lose money, not the Thai banks. So this kind of offence tends to be dealt with leniently compared to if they stole the money from a Thai person.

This scam works because most of the ATM cards issued worldwide will be backwards compatible with the old technology that the Thai banks use. The problem is always the weakest link in the chain, which here is the continued use of magnetic stripe technology.

Interesting in the photo you see a card reader/encoder and a much smaller skimmer device. This kind of goes against their story that they were just being paid to withdraw the money.

I think it's a stock photo "file photo" from another case.

Thank you 55Jay for pointing out that it's probably a library image.. I think you are correct.

[sirchai]

It is odd that all manner of ratbags are allowed into Thailand under some kind of open door visitor visa program and yet govts ( of all persuasions) seem to put every obstacle possible in the path of legitimate long-termers with money or skills. I don't get it.

Totally agree. I couldn't believe my own eyes when I checked in a hotel, I had booked online at Nana. The majority there were Arabs, Nigerians, Indians, etc..

Then you can see all the quality tourists at Khao San road, the Russian fire brigade, the Romanian and Hungarian rip offs, etc...

Some openly sell child porn, some have vibrators and other sex toys that are not allowed here, etc...on what sort of visa/ work permit are they?

So you need a criminal background check to teach at a school, but you can sell drugs, child porn and other bs under the eyes of the cops.

The hub of Why's.-

Edited April 9, 2014 by sirchai

[55Jay]

You have to keep in mind that it's the Italian bank in this case who lose money, not the Thai banks. So this kind of offence tends to be dealt with leniently compared to if they stole the money from a Thai person.

This scam works because most of the ATM cards issued worldwide will be backwards compatible with the old technology that the Thai banks use. The problem is always the weakest link in the chain, which here is the continued use of magnetic stripe technology.

Interesting in the photo you see a card reader/encoder and a much smaller skimmer device. This kind of goes against their story that they were just being paid to withdraw the money.

I think it's a stock photo "file photo" from another case.

Thank you 55Jay for pointing out that it's probably a library image.. I think you are correct.

No problem... BUT... you are probably right being they had 364 blank cards and a skimmer, they are likely a bit more than two numpties hired just to pull money out.

[skyaslimit]

Well done Lumphinee Police Station, keep it up.

Sent from my GT-S5360 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[biplanebluey]

You have to keep in mind that it's the Italian bank in this case who lose money, not the Thai banks. So this kind of offence tends to be dealt with leniently compared to if they stole the money from a Thai person.

This scam works because most of the ATM cards issued worldwide will be backwards compatible with the old technology that the Thai banks use. The problem is always the weakest link in the chain, which here is the continued use of magnetic stripe technology.

Interesting in the photo you see a card reader/encoder and a much smaller skimmer device. This kind of goes against their story that they were just being paid to withdraw the money.

This picture has nothing to do with the present case-------- It says at the bottom of the pic "file photo"

[sirchai]

They show a Brit who was in possession of one gram Mary Jane, but they don't show these scumbags?

Is it because they can buy their way out? I wouldn't be surprised.

[FredNL]

I got skimmed in February 2011 on my Bangkok Bank Visa card for 76,000 THB. Had it blocked and I received a new card. Pressed charges against the skimmers. But up to now, the Bangkok Bank has NOT refunded my loss. It is still under investigation.

Next to this all, about 95% of all the ATMs in Thailand are still running on Windows XP. There have been multiple hacked ATMs at Kasikorn, Siam Commercial and Bangkok Bank in the Din Daen - Ratchada area since last weekend. I already know a few that have been ripped for lots of money. Aparantly they don't want to have any thing published on these Windows XP problems (most of the Windows XP installed on the ATMs are illegal rip-offs).

Just be careful using the ATMs these days.

[Maestro]

Removed a post with an unfounded accusation.

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic, nonsensical post about "BC Driver Enhanced drivers licenses" and the replies to it.

[Basil B]

FYI MicroChip cards are the ones hacked, the only prevention is to keep card in Aluminum tinfoil cover...

Not the only prevention according to:

"You can't just sit in a room and scan. You have to have the reader right next to the card."

"You don't have to go to all that trouble to use aluminium foil if you have 2 or more chip

(RFID) cards together in your wallet. Contactless Hotel room keys work on the same principal.

Check it out yourself by trying to open the door with two room keys together. It does not work."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/717242-is-this-some-kind-of-scam/page-2

Not quite true, a few many years ago, when Phillips were introducing MiFare, (one of the many chip technologies used in RFID cards, but now the dominating leader in RFID) they claimed it was one day going to be so cheep that it would be used by supermarkets to label products and a reader could read a basket of groceries (up to 50 items) in one go.

[hhgz]

"...their hands be cut off..."

Another advocate of Sharia law.

[jacko45k]

I don't remember if it was a chip card exactly, but recall being offered something like that by Bangkok Bank, but was told the card wouldn't work in other bank ATMs, so many people didn't want them.

Are microchip cards impossible to create like these guys did, or just harder than the easier mag strip cards?

That is true, but I took one anyhow as I am mostly near BB ATMs so it is no great hardship.

I am unsure whether it will work outside Thailand, currently untested, but likely not wherever they do not have chip ATM machines.

Perhaps time Thailand shaped itself and eliminated Mag-strip machines, same time to change the operating system from Windows XP.

[louse1953]

Why has Thailand not implemented "MicroChip" cards...

Skimming and rewriting the magnetic strip is "child's play".

[louse1953]

Why has Thailand not implemented "MicroChip" cards...

Skimming and rewriting the magnetic strip is "child's play".

Most countries including Thailand have chips,the Yanks are the holdup because they wont reconfigure their atm's,costs too much.So the magnetic strip stays for the Yanks,making cards with chips and magnetic strips very suss.When Usa atm fraud is greater than change over atm,something might happen,then do away with strips.When money laundering effects them they dont mind pushing other countries around.

[bendejo]

No cash?

[oldthaihand99]

FYI MicroChip cards are the ones hacked, the only prevention is to keep card in Aluminum tinfoil cover...

Not the only prevention according to:

"You can't just sit in a room and scan. You have to have the reader right next to the card."

"You don't have to go to all that trouble to use aluminium foil if you have 2 or more chip

(RFID) cards together in your wallet. Contactless Hotel room keys work on the same principal.

Check it out yourself by trying to open the door with two room keys together. It does not work."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/717242-is-this-some-kind-of-scam/page-2

Not quite true, a few many years ago, when Phillips were introducing MiFare, (one of the many chip technologies used in RFID cards, but now the dominating leader in RFID) they claimed it was one day going to be so cheep that it would be used by supermarkets to label products and a reader could read a basket of groceries (up to 50 items) in one go.

They "claimed" this "many years ago". Haven't developed the hoped for technology yet?

So 2 chip cards in the wallet is as effective as tin foil?

Supermarket items are still scanned one by one.

[louse1953]

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Until the Thai government will change the current penalties for such crimes, these scumbags will

continue to come here by their droves.. it seems to me that no one really care that 100's of millions

of baht are being stolen every year, who pays for all that damages? and who cover the costs? I wonder.

A good point you make. +1

I think the clients in Europe are covered and will get their money back but who covers the cost is a good question. In Thailand I think the consumer is not covered and the bank might just not refund the money.

Not correct. If one reads the prior news article about SCB being hacked, one would note that the Bank categorically stated that the customers whose accounts were plundered would be compensated by the bank. I think the situation vis a vis the consumer is quite clear.

Do (Thai) banks may have a reserve to cover major incidents like this?

Maybe the answer is we would all pay for it through higher fees, higher rates, and less interest on deposit products.

If they have insurance, and the insurance company had to pay out, the premium would likely go up and that rolls downhill to us as well.

You really believe a Thai bank would compensate Italian bank customers if some criminals would withdraw through their ATMs. The Thai Banks earning money on Fee's for all these fraud transactions. Probably many thousands of fraud transactions every month. Maybe If the bank customer who has been scammed is from Thailand the bank will maybe compensate but only if the customers really can prove that he didn't act negligent like lost his card and forgot to report that. But on international scaming - no way!

Using thai atm doesnt matter,if money came out of Italian acc.,Italian bank pays.

[kriswillems]

They were probably competitors of the last ATM scam, the one in which a police officer took part. Good that they are caught.

[HooHaa]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

A good point you make. +1

I think the clients in Europe are covered and will get their money back but who covers the cost is a good question. In Thailand I think the consumer is not covered and the bank might just not refund the money.

Not correct. If one reads the prior news article about SCB being hacked, one would note that the Bank categorically stated that the customers whose accounts were plundered would be compensated by the bank. I think the situation vis a vis the consumer is quite clear.

Do (Thai) banks may have a reserve to cover major incidents like this?

Maybe the answer is we would all pay for it through higher fees, higher rates, and less interest on deposit products.

If they have insurance, and the insurance company had to pay out, the premium would likely go up and that rolls downhill to us as well.

You really believe a Thai bank would compensate Italian bank customers if some criminals would withdraw through their ATMs. The Thai Banks earning money on Fee's for all these fraud transactions. Probably many thousands of fraud transactions every month. Maybe If the bank customer who has been scammed is from Thailand the bank will maybe compensate but only if the customers really can prove that he didn't act negligent like lost his card and forgot to report that. But on international scaming - no way!

sometimes the inteligence of folk on this board really comes into question.

the thai banks are not liable for the funds of ANYONE but their own customers. do you think an italian bank would cover the losses of a bangkok bank customer?

No. why would they?

Edited April 10, 2014 by HooHaa

[louse1953]

I don't remember if it was a chip card exactly, but recall being offered something like that by Bangkok Bank, but was told the card wouldn't work in other bank ATMs, so many people didn't want them.

Are microchip cards impossible to create like these guys did, or just harder than the easier mag strip cards?

That is true, but I took one anyhow as I am mostly near BB ATMs so it is no great hardship.

I am unsure whether it will work outside Thailand, currently untested, but likely not wherever they do not have chip ATM machines.

Perhaps time Thailand shaped itself and eliminated Mag-strip machines, same time to change the operating system from Windows XP.

[/quot

Chipped card will not work outside Thailand so top up unchipped card through internet banking,if you trust that.Its a brave new world my friends

[HooHaa]

It is odd that all manner of ratbags are allowed into Thailand under some kind of open door visitor visa program and yet govts ( of all persuasions) seem to put every obstacle possible in the path of legitimate long-termers with money or skills. I don't get it.

having had both money and skills, sometimes simultaneously, i have expended very little effort to remain in the kingdom for over 18 years. generally the effort is expended by someone locally who wished to make use of either.

if you are struggling i would suggest either your bank balance your skills or both are not quite up to snuff

[technologybytes]

i keep hearing people suggesting that chip cards are the answer, and that's only partially true.

The truth is that these cards are being used in Thailand BECAUSE the original IS a chip card.

Even the chip cards have a magnetic stripe which allows them to fall-back to magnetic strip in areas such as Thailand where there are ATMs that cannot read chip cards. The hackers will just withdraw from whichever country has the least ATM security.

It's a pain in the butt for Thailand, they don't lose financially from the crime but they have to deal with arrest, prosecution and detention which all costs money. It's not in Thailand's interest to give these people long sentences, they just want to see the back of them but without being seen as too soft.

[55Jay]

I don't remember if it was a chip card exactly, but recall being offered something like that by Bangkok Bank, but was told the card wouldn't work in other bank ATMs, so many people didn't want them.

Are microchip cards impossible to create like these guys did, or just harder than the easier mag strip cards?

That is true, but I took one anyhow as I am mostly near BB ATMs so it is no great hardship.

I am unsure whether it will work outside Thailand, currently untested, but likely not wherever they do not have chip ATM machines.

Perhaps time Thailand shaped itself and eliminated Mag-strip machines, same time to change the operating system from Windows XP.

You know, after reading this thread yesterday, I started thinking the same thing about the BB chipped ATM card and that my reluctance was misplaced, perhaps overly-influenced by reading that many others had rejected them. I always use BB ATM to w/d money from my BB account, and can think of only 1 or two times in over a year where I didn't for one-off reasons.

[55Jay]

Do (Thai) banks may have a reserve to cover major incidents like this?

Maybe the answer is we would all pay for it through higher fees, higher rates, and less interest on deposit products.

If they have insurance, and the insurance company had to pay out, the premium would likely go up and that rolls downhill to us as well.

You really believe a Thai bank would compensate Italian bank customers if some criminals would withdraw through their ATMs. The Thai Banks earning money on Fee's for all these fraud transactions. Probably many thousands of fraud transactions every month. Maybe If the bank customer who has been scammed is from Thailand the bank will maybe compensate but only if the customers really can prove that he didn't act negligent like lost his card and forgot to report that. But on international scaming - no way!

sometimes the inteligence of folk on this board really comes into question.

the thai banks are not liable for the funds of ANYONE but their own customers. do you think an italian bank would cover the losses of a bangkok bank customer?

No. why would they?

I know exactly what you mean about "inteligence", HooHaa.

If you had stumbled on a bit further to post #23... oh, never mind.

[tiffanystoyz]

Want the ring leader he works with the Thai police here drives a harley see him around NANA alot.

[tiffanystoyz]

as far as blank cards can buy them at fortune town mall 3rd floor