New role eyed for Prem

[lomatopo]

A ninety-three year old "reformer".

Well, as a 12 year old, he may be able to remember the first coup?

This can't even be classified a "Pensioner's Coup", more like a Dinosaur's Coup.

[Fryslan boppe]

So, did Thaksin do ANYTHING illegal prior to his conviction in your blinkered tiny little mind?" (Quote fromTatsujin, Post #18 above)

Not if the source of those accusations are rooted and sourced from the Coup-makers and all their appendages, as part of their demonization of Thaksin in order to validate themselves.

Lest anyone think that this opinion is aberrational, let me remind you that it reflects the Electoral Majority. Their very objective, measurable electoral actions support it......It is why there is such a concerted effort to silence that electoral majority, clearly evidenced this last election and by the Lumpini crowd, and their associates...........Check where the aberration is...It is not with this majority and this opinion, but the anti-democratic minority..

However, the greatest aberration, are those Farangs coming from countries with democratic traditions, who by consistently dumping on Thaksin, Ms. Y and the elected PTP, are effectively sympathizing with those who advocate a “Civilian Dictatorship” to replace Electoral and Parliamentary Democracy…….I am not one of those!

So basically, in your mind, there was no need for the infamous Amnesty bill, as anyway, anything Thaksin did during the covered time span was completely legit by virtue of Thaksin doing it?

When talking about what was legit, and what was not, focus on what the coup-makers did before and after their 2006 coup-caper....Not on what they said Thaksin did or did not do.....Overthrowing an elected Govt. because of their electoral futility essentially renders their action and pronouncements null and void.....Especially when they are steeped in self-serving justifications of illegal and anti-democratic actions.

The voters in the subsequent election made that very clear. My opinion reflects those voters, not that of the coup-makers.....At its' heart, this is all about electoral and parliamentary Democracy, and not seeking to validate actions opposed to that......One sees similar motives that tolerate the Lumpini thing., especially when that crowd is more military than Political

[Morch]

So, did Thaksin do ANYTHING illegal prior to his conviction in your blinkered tiny little mind?" (Quote fromTatsujin, Post #18 above)

Not if the source of those accusations are rooted and sourced from the Coup-makers and all their appendages, as part of their demonization of Thaksin in order to validate themselves.

Lest anyone think that this opinion is aberrational, let me remind you that it reflects the Electoral Majority. Their very objective, measurable electoral actions support it......It is why there is such a concerted effort to silence that electoral majority, clearly evidenced this last election and by the Lumpini crowd, and their associates...........Check where the aberration is...It is not with this majority and this opinion, but the anti-democratic minority..

However, the greatest aberration, are those Farangs coming from countries with democratic traditions, who by consistently dumping on Thaksin, Ms. Y and the elected PTP, are effectively sympathizing with those who advocate a “Civilian Dictatorship” to replace Electoral and Parliamentary Democracy…….I am not one of those!

So basically, in your mind, there was no need for the infamous Amnesty bill, as anyway, anything Thaksin did during the covered time span was completely legit by virtue of Thaksin doing it?

When talking about what was legit, and what was not, focus on what the coup-makers did before and after their 2006 coup-caper....Not on what they said Thaksin did or did not do.....Overthrowing an elected Govt. because of their electoral futility essentially renders their action and pronouncements null and void.....Especially when they are steeped in self-serving justifications of illegal and anti-democratic actions.

The voters in the subsequent election made that very clear. My opinion reflects those voters, not that of the coup-makers.....At its' heart, this is all about electoral and parliamentary Democracy, and not seeking to validate actions opposed to that......One sees similar motives that tolerate the Lumpini thing., especially when that crowd is more military than Political

I wasn't protecting the coup of 2006 at all. Just asking you if you think that everything Thaksin did was legit, regardless of the coup. In other words, do you believe that the since there was a coup it necessarily means that everything Thaksin did was alright. Counting votes is not a usually accepted method of ascertaining these matters.

[binjalin]

now 6 letters ... starts with an 'A' and ends in a 'T'

Yes I whole heartedly agree he would be the answer. The one thing holding him back is honesty.

He can not get himself to sink low enough to make populace promises to the voters that are doomed from the word go.

He continues to insist on policies that will have a positive lasting effect.

Look at his record. Even with a minority government he managed to stop the soaring rise in corruption that had been running wild under the previous governments. He also managed to defeat an armed attempt at over throwing the Government. All this with the need of support from other parties some of whom were not happy with it but realized that to go any other way would be to further harm Thailand while only enriching one man.

Think of it enriching only one man out of 66 million people.

Good choice binjalin

Proud to see you come away from the dark side.

now, now, now

was just pointing out, for those who are familiar with crosswords, who this venerable gentleman is and what he represents

as Yoda would say "endorsement it was not"

[binjalin]

Steve, you miss.my point. Why are we here now?

Because the judiciary is so bent. I made no comment about who is right or wrong. A strong independent judiciary has had 80 years to be created ..Thaksin has been in power on and off for 10.

The first judgement on his assets is.probably the start of the whole problem. An expedient decision that this country has paid dearly for.

The judiciary is not bent!!!

If a red shirt admits to stealing a car in Chiang Mai, he goes to court and the judiciary find him not guilty and free him. is that correct?

Well that is what you are implying. If he is found guilty then it's an ammart conspiracy against him.

If Yingluck had acted properly and not been a serial liar and breaker of laws then she wouldn't have to worry about the courts.

She is always breaking the law and so she must spend some court time before being unceremoniously retired in disgrace!!

even the most hardened yellow I know (and there are very,very few - but I have managed to find one or two) "get it" about the judicial system here

except it seems your goodself who appears to see Thailand through the beautiful rose color of illusion - but I accept it must be comforting to believe all is well

[SICHONSTEVE]

Steve, you miss.my point. Why are we here now?

Because the judiciary is so bent. I made no comment about who is right or wrong. A strong independent judiciary has had 80 years to be created ..Thaksin has been in power on and off for 10.

The first judgement on his assets is.probably the start of the whole problem. An expedient decision that this country has paid dearly for.

The judiciary is not bent!!!

If a red shirt admits to stealing a car in Chiang Mai, he goes to court and the judiciary find him not guilty and free him. is that correct?

Well that is what you are implying. If he is found guilty then it's an ammart conspiracy against him.

If Yingluck had acted properly and not been a serial liar and breaker of laws then she wouldn't have to worry about the courts.

She is always breaking the law and so she must spend some court time before being unceremoniously retired in disgrace!!

even the most hardened yellow I know (and there are very,very few - but I have managed to find one or two) "get it" about the judicial system here

except it seems your goodself who appears to see Thailand through the beautiful rose color of illusion - but I accept it must be comforting to believe all is well

Answer me this:

Do you think that Yingluck was negligent with the rice scam - she was chairperson of the committee don't forget, and didn't attend a single meeting and ignored any advice (not given by her brother) relating to severe warnings that the scam was bleeding Thailand dry and would bankrupt Thailand if it was continued.

Governments are not allowed to transfer officials if it is politically advantageous to them, so, the second question - do you think that she broke parliamentary law when she kicked someone out who was doing an able and adequate job and placed Thaksin's ex-wife's brother into that position.

Does removing checks and balances from parliament not detract from democracy?

There you go, over to you.

[Old Man River]

Prem Tinsulanonda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Tinsulanonda

After all the demonizing of Prem after the 2006 coup and Prem being accused of pulling the strings of the mysterious 'third hand'. I can't see how Gen. Prem can be effective in this role (nor will Thaksin accept him) and that is why I think he will refuse to be the mediator. Dr. Thaksin will not accept anything less than one of his puppets being in charge and Suthep, who may be to only man in Thailand as stubborn as Thaksin, will not accept any Thaksin puppets in a future government. I am not saying this is democratic in any way, as both men abhor democracy. Dr. Thaksin has approached Suthep several times wanting to cut a secret, back-room deal but Suthep remains adamant on public discussions of the future of democracy in Thailand; besides, he can't trust Thaksin to abide by any secret deals. Would you?

So, Thailand will plod along with nothing changing except the days of the calendar until something dramatic happens. I expect the courts will precipitate the only changes in the near future.

You are assuming that Thaksin and Suthep need to be part of this. One is a convicted criminal and the other has charges against him. Why should they be part of this?

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Well, Thaksin controls the PTP which can mobilize 45% of the electorate on a good day and Suthep leads the movement that has the whole country tied in knots since November. I wasn't aware of any other power players in this game. Please tell me, if not Thaksin and Suthep, who will make the decisions here? I suppose the acting President of the Senate could nominate a replacement, temporary PM for Royal Endorsement and that would bypass both T and S but I'm sure PTP would involve the courts if that was done. How do you think the issue of succession will play out?

I have to stay away from the issue of succession, but I don't think the whole country relies on just two people. There are many RS's that don't follow Thaksin and many non-PTP who don't follow Suthep. Then there is the whole question of whether democracy is right for Thailand given the numerous related problems. If it ends up not a democracy, then the 20-30% of the eligible voters (but still majority) doesn't matter. There are just so many questions that nothing is cut and dry.

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[Old Man River]

First a history of military coups. Then a Court coup. Now a Covenant coup? Thailand politics seem to have an unlimited imagination when it comes to obstructing or destroying democracy but mindless when it comes to preserving it. Hopefully the EC will see to its responsibility to cease obstructing new elections and cooperate with the Government to get the country moving forward once again to the re-establishment of a democratically elected administraion.

If, as you say, democracy is having problems surviving in Thailand, then perhaps democracy is not the right system for Thailand.

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I stated this months ago - Thailand needs a helping hand and is not mature enough for democracy. What it needs is benign dictatorship!!

The trouble with benign dictatorships is that to survive they have to suppress any opposition. Unless that opposition is supine ( and in Thailand it won't be) then they pretty soon stop being benign, and have to become ruthless.

With the anticipated unhappy event this bunch are old men in a hurry. They will be ruthless.

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What is your view of Singapore? Is it a democracy? Not benign, in my view, but one of the best educational systems anywhere and people who could move away, don't leave.

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[SICHONSTEVE]

Singapore's hybrid part authoritarian part democratic state could indeed be something akin to what Thailand needs.

One problem though it would probably have to be a Republic, so that may not actually be the answer.

[moonao]

Perhaps Prem is looking for redemption for his mistake in instigating the coup in 2006 and the division of the country that followed. All those years of carefully building up a statesman reputation were destroyed with one poor decision.

The timing of this proposal strikes an interesting truth... the yellow shirt supporters are getting desperate because they have no solutions left, nothing, zilch.

[Thai at Heart]

Steve, you miss.my point. Why are we here now?

Because the judiciary is so bent. I made no comment about who is right or wrong. A strong independent judiciary has had 80 years to be created ..Thaksin has been in power on and off for 10.

The first judgement on his assets is.probably the start of the whole problem. An expedient decision that this country has paid dearly for.

The judiciary is not bent!!!

If a red shirt admits to stealing a car in Chiang Mai, he goes to court and the judiciary find him not guilty and free him. is that correct?

Well that is what you are implying. If he is found guilty then it's an ammart conspiracy against him.

If Yingluck had acted properly and not been a serial liar and breaker of laws then she wouldn't have to worry about the courts.

She is always breaking the law and so she must spend some court time before being unceremoniously retired in disgrace!!

even the most hardened yellow I know (and there are very,very few - but I have managed to find one or two) "get it" about the judicial system here

except it seems your goodself who appears to see Thailand through the beautiful rose color of illusion - but I accept it must be comforting to believe all is well

Indeed. The initial judgement that Thaksin hadn't hidden his assets is the perfect example of how the judiciary goes with the wind of the season.

[BlueNoseCodger]

Steve, you miss.my point. Why are we here now?

Because the judiciary is so bent. I made no comment about who is right or wrong. A strong independent judiciary has had 80 years to be created ..Thaksin has been in power on and off for 10.

The first judgement on his assets is.probably the start of the whole problem. An expedient decision that this country has paid dearly for.

The judiciary is not bent!!!

If a red shirt admits to stealing a car in Chiang Mai, he goes to court and the judiciary find him not guilty and free him. is that correct?

Well that is what you are implying. If he is found guilty then it's an ammart conspiracy against him.

If Yingluck had acted properly and not been a serial liar and breaker of laws then she wouldn't have to worry about the courts.

She is always breaking the law and so she must spend some court time before being unceremoniously retired in disgrace!!

even the most hardened yellow I know (and there are very,very few - but I have managed to find one or two) "get it" about the judicial system here

except it seems your goodself who appears to see Thailand through the beautiful rose color of illusion - but I accept it must be comforting to believe all is well

Answer me this:

Do you think that Yingluck was negligent with the rice scam - she was chairperson of the committee don't forget, and didn't attend a single meeting and ignored any advice (not given by her brother) relating to severe warnings that the scam was bleeding Thailand dry and would bankrupt Thailand if it was continued.

Governments are not allowed to transfer officials if it is politically advantageous to them, so, the second question - do you think that she broke parliamentary law when she kicked someone out who was doing an able and adequate job and placed Thaksin's ex-wife's brother into that position.

Does removing checks and balances from parliament not detract from democracy?

There you go, over to you.

Rice scheme is not bankrupting Thailand, it just upset the rice cartel who use to buy at 8k / tonne and sell at 37k, with the democrats paying 2k subsidy. Now they pay 13 and export at 37, and when these Suthep games are over and they stop undermining the government, they'll pay above 15 to export at 37.

Governments can move civil servants, just as Thawil was moved into the job by Abhisit, so Yingluk can move him out. Is that all you have? Innuendo? Because the ex police chief did his job well. Thawil has some issues given he appeared on the PDRC stage when Suthep has an arrest warrant out against him, how can he work at the National Security Council now??*

Removing checks and balances? You mean making the senate electable, answerable to the people?? Given the unelected portion is staging a coup, don't you think they've been proven right? The senate needs to be electable, and the first draft of that amendment was even approved by the senate itself! Did they also commit a crime by approving the draft?

If you think your ideas hold weight, form a party and get elected, as it is, you're simply making allegations and hoping to fool a, well who exactly?

* BTW, Suthep gave a letter from some powerful person to the court in December. That letter, caused the court to delay his indictment hearing. Who wrote that letter? Was it one of these people that are coming out of the woodwork?? We should go digging to find out who backed him.

[Fryslan boppe]

"Perhaps he (FB) is just a chap from the rural coastal Netherlands, who holds views on the current situation which are not shared by many/most on this board, and who has the time and interest to make them public" (Quote from Post #83 - Jag)

Not shared by many/most on this board, but reflecting the views among UDD/RS's, which happen to make up the bulk of the electoral majority.

The attempt to make those views appear to be aberrational does not take into account that majority/minority reality....In fact, seeking to make the majority view aberrational, and their minority one normative, just doesn't fly, other than among those minority accolytes............The real world doesn't compute that way.

I do wish you'd stop using the "electoral majority" bit.

The PTP had a majority in Parliament, not a popular vote majority - the UDD aren't a party.

The majority in Parliament was not due to getting the majority of votes, but due to Thailand's elections system (party list and constituencies). They got more votes than the Democrat Party, they were the largest party - that's about it, no need to overdo it.

"I do wish you'd stop using the "electoral majority" bit"

Perfectly understandable that unelectables would be bothered by that....It is an inconvenient truth, as Al would say.

Until the Governing Majority in Parliament, based on electoral realities changes, the majority/minority characterization remains.

This reality is particularly bothersome when those in Lumpini Park are trying to ignore it, and framing their coup advocacy as being between them and a small governing braintrust, instead of a nation-wide electorate.....The notion of them being up against an electoral majority makes their minority status appear to be even more miniscule.

All their noise and dreaming about governing options that are not electorally rooted, reflects this basic disrespect for the Thai electorate.....An electorate that impresses the H... out of me, for their ability to see through the smoke the anti-PTP/UDD/RS and pro-Ammart media assaults them, come election time.

[kimamey]

"....or whether his group's proposal was in support of the anti-government People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC), which is pushing an agenda of reform prior to the next general election"

Wow, don't these people realize this guy is a "red flag walking" to an electoral majority who accuse him of having a major role in the 2006 coup caper, and of political interference the last 10 years that has severely curtailed development of Democracy.....No amount of Elitist aggrandizement changes that...It just pee's them off when they see it......Additionally, are there only so-called "Statesmen" on one side of the political divide?

Amazing how out-of-touch and insulated these people are, to propose such a thing....Obviously insulated within their own Elitist circles......

To even float any political notion related to governance that isn't electorally rooted, is a coup.......When will these people realize their un-Democratic musings just inflames the majority electorate more. ...Catering to their minority is a losing proposition.

Also, suggesting this is some sort of unknown grouping suggesting this thing, is just some more phony DP segmentation effort...But in reality, different groups-same faces.

They are probably among the crowd who can only demonize major swaths of the electorate as not being of their station, and therefore not given credit for any degree of Politicization. By denigrating them as being uni-dimensionally attached to Thaksin and or only 'moved' to political stuff for money, they diminish any hope of electoral success anytime soon.

That said, the quote "(PDRC), which is pushing an agenda of reform prior to the next general election"....really ought to be "reform themselves, before the next election" if they have any hope of making electoral progress.

But their Elitist arrogance prevents them from seeing beyond their nose in this regard.

Wow, you should write for Khaosod or another paper . . . love that political rhetoric, and in this case I (kind of) agree, Prem is NOT the best choice as he is NOT independent and doesn't have a great track history.

However, putting that aside for one moment, can we finally put one thing to bed, who is actually running this country currently, it's Thaksin from afar:

Pheu Thai sources said earlier that fugitive de-facto party leader Thaksin Shinawatra had instructed party legal advisers to fight to ensure that even if future rulings are made against caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra or the party's policies, Pheu Thai could remain in power with a deputy premier or another cabinet member carrying on the government's caretaker status.

The sources said Thaksin ordered that a general election had to be held as quickly as possible, with a member of the Shinawatra family as the candidate of Pheu Thai party. The sources visited Thaksin in Hong Kong last week, but only told reporters of Thaksin's orders yesterday.

If these reports from sources are correct, and there's no way of knowing if they are then it shows that the current government aren't democratic. It would be good to hear FB's comments on this but I won't hold my breath. It seems unlikely that all the reports credited to 'sources' are false so my guess is there is at least some truth in them.

The problem with FB is he only sees one side so if the PTP or Yingluck do something right he may mention it. If Suthep the Democrats ect. do something wrong he will definitely mention it. At great length. These things do happen and I like many others will comment on them regardless of our political preferences. However FB seems unable to contemplate anything outside his extremely limited mindset.

The sources said Thaksin ordered that a general election had to be held as quickly as possible, with a member of the Shinawatra family as the candidate of Pheu Thai party.

This doesn't show a lot of faith in the rest of the party does it.

Edited April 15, 2014 by kimamey

[pmugghc]

"....or whether his group's proposal was in support of the anti-government People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC), which is pushing an agenda of reform prior to the next general election"

Wow, don't these people realize this guy is a "red flag walking" to an electoral majority who accuse him of having a major role in the 2006 coup caper, and of political interference the last 10 years that has severely curtailed development of Democracy.....No amount of Elitist aggrandizement changes that...It just pee's them off when they see it......Additionally, are there only so-called "Statesmen" on one side of the political divide?

Amazing how out-of-touch and insulated these people are, to propose such a thing....Obviously insulated within their own Elitist circles......

To even float any political notion related to governance that isn't electorally rooted, is a coup.......When will these people realize their un-Democratic musings just inflames the majority electorate more. ...Catering to their minority is a losing proposition.

Also, suggesting this is some sort of unknown grouping suggesting this thing, is just some more phony DP segmentation effort...But in reality, different groups-same faces.

They are probably among the crowd who can only demonize major swaths of the electorate as not being of their station, and therefore not given credit for any degree of Politicization. By denigrating them as being uni-dimensionally attached to Thaksin and or only 'moved' to political stuff for money, they diminish any hope of electoral success anytime soon.

That said, the quote "(PDRC), which is pushing an agenda of reform prior to the next general election"....really ought to be "reform themselves, before the next election" if they have any hope of making electoral progress.

But their Elitist arrogance prevents them from seeing beyond their nose in this regard.

Who are you to post, you don't even know the name of the caretaking Justice Minister your boss appointed?

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[Fryslan boppe]

So, did Thaksin do ANYTHING illegal prior to his conviction in your blinkered tiny little mind?" (Quote fromTatsujin, Post #18 above)

Not if the source of those accusations are rooted and sourced from the Coup-makers and all their appendages, as part of their demonization of Thaksin in order to validate themselves.

Lest anyone think that this opinion is aberrational, let me remind you that it reflects the Electoral Majority. Their very objective, measurable electoral actions support it......It is why there is such a concerted effort to silence that electoral majority, clearly evidenced this last election and by the Lumpini crowd, and their associates...........Check where the aberration is...It is not with this majority and this opinion, but the anti-democratic minority..

However, the greatest aberration, are those Farangs coming from countries with democratic traditions, who by consistently dumping on Thaksin, Ms. Y and the elected PTP, are effectively sympathizing with those who advocate a “Civilian Dictatorship” to replace Electoral and Parliamentary Democracy…….I am not one of those!

So basically, in your mind, there was no need for the infamous Amnesty bill, as anyway, anything Thaksin did during the covered time span was completely legit by virtue of Thaksin doing it?

When talking about what was legit, and what was not, focus on what the coup-makers did before and after their 2006 coup-caper....Not on what they said Thaksin did or did not do.....Overthrowing an elected Govt. because of their electoral futility essentially renders their action and pronouncements null and void.....Especially when they are steeped in self-serving justifications of illegal and anti-democratic actions.

The voters in the subsequent election made that very clear. My opinion reflects those voters, not that of the coup-makers.....At its' heart, this is all about electoral and parliamentary Democracy, and not seeking to validate actions opposed to that......One sees similar motives that tolerate the Lumpini thing., especially when that crowd is more military than Political

I wasn't protecting the coup of 2006 at all. Just asking you if you think that everything Thaksin did was legit, regardless of the coup. In other words, do you believe that the since there was a coup it necessarily means that everything Thaksin did was alright. Counting votes is not a usually accepted method of ascertaining these matters.

"Counting votes is not a usually accepted method of ascertaining these matters"

Yes. it is.

Both the opposition and the Governemnt have every opportunity during both televised Parliamentary sessions and election campaigns, to inform and convince the electorate of their take on things.

The voters will vet that, and determine what is Oppositional folderol and what is legit....They may conclude to turf that dastardly Govt, or decide that the Opposition stuff lacks merit.

And then indeed, ascertain these matters with their votes.

The unelectables and anti-democratic types have a difficult time getting that through their head...Respecting voters and their decisions.

Until they figure that out, reform themselves before elections, then perhaps Thailand can be better served with competitive elections.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Fryslan boppe

[pmugghc]

Dr Thaksin ???? Is he a doctor also now ? I what field ?

Yes, from the "prestigious" Eastern Kentucky Uni. It's ranked at #48:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/eastern-kentucky-university-1963/rankings

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[pmugghc]

"....or whether his group's proposal was in support of the anti-government People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC), which is pushing an agenda of reform prior to the next general election"

Wow, don't these people realize this guy is a "red flag walking" to an electoral majority who accuse him of having a major role in the 2006 coup caper, and of political interference the last 10 years that has severely curtailed development of Democracy.....No amount of Elitist aggrandizement changes that...It just pee's them off when they see it......Additionally, are there only so-called "Statesmen" on one side of the political divide?

Amazing how out-of-touch and insulated these people are, to propose such a thing....Obviously insulated within their own Elitist circles......

To even float any political notion related to governance that isn't electorally rooted, is a coup.......When will these people realize their un-Democratic musings just inflames the majority electorate more. ...Catering to their minority is a losing proposition.

Also, suggesting this is some sort of unknown grouping suggesting this thing, is just some more phony DP segmentation effort...But in reality, different groups-same faces.

They are probably among the crowd who can only demonize major swaths of the electorate as not being of their station, and therefore not given credit for any degree of Politicization. By denigrating them as being uni-dimensionally attached to Thaksin and or only 'moved' to political stuff for money, they diminish any hope of electoral success anytime soon.

That said, the quote "(PDRC), which is pushing an agenda of reform prior to the next general election"....really ought to be "reform themselves, before the next election" if they have any hope of making electoral progress.

But their Elitist arrogance prevents them from seeing beyond their nose in this regard.

Wow, you should write for Khaosod or another paper . . . love that political rhetoric, and in this case I (kind of) agree, Prem is NOT the best choice as he is NOT independent and doesn't have a great track history.

However, putting that aside for one moment, can we finally put one thing to bed, who is actually running this country currently, it's Thaksin from afar:

Pheu Thai sources said earlier that fugitive de-facto party leader Thaksin Shinawatra had instructed party legal advisers to fight to ensure that even if future rulings are made against caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra or the party's policies, Pheu Thai could remain in power with a deputy premier or another cabinet member carrying on the government's caretaker status.

The sources said Thaksin ordered that a general election had to be held as quickly as possible, with a member of the Shinawatra family as the candidate of Pheu Thai party. The sources visited Thaksin in Hong Kong last week, but only told reporters of Thaksin's orders yesterday.

"....can we finally put one thing to bed, who is actually running this country currently, it's Thaksin from afar..."

And is that a problem?....Either him and his electorally-based political elements are running the country, or the 2006 coup-makers are. They were rejected by the electorate, in spite of their best efforts to justify their power grab by demonizing Thaksin.

One side has electoral legitimacy, the other does not. What is it about that, which people don't understand?

There, we put it to bed.

Thank you for agreeing that Thaksin is actually running this country, finally.

The problem is, he's a convicted criminal on the run, and no one voted for him.

You don't see a problem in that?

"The problem is, he's a convicted criminal on the run, and no one voted for him.

You don't see a problem in that?"

Not the least bit.

The only crowd who sees that Thaksin court thing as anything other than politically motivated, and part of the Thaksin demonization campaign I referenced, are those trying to 'normalize the abnormal" today, with respect to the judiciary and Ind. Org's.

There is an attempt to reprise this whole thing now, using many of the same tactics as were used in 2006.....Although they are trying to be more subtle now......By not using the military, they hope to obscure their intentions from an International audience.

That little add-on via edit, about no-one voting for Thaksin is folderol....He was duly elected until the unelectable Elites "unelected him" in 2006....His association with the last election was huge and transparent...The electorate governed themselves accordingly.....They are quite happy to see his influence, and voted for it....Only the electorally-challenged PAD-Dem's are unhappy......But blinded to the need to "reform themselves before an election".

Bob, the problem is that you never reply to questions. Do you regard the 2001 ruling legit which absolved Thaksin of hiding many millions with his drivers, maids, gardeners etc?

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[pmugghc]

"The problem is, he's a convicted criminal on the run, and no one voted for him.

You don't see a problem in that?"

Thank you for agreeing that Thaksin is actually running this country, finally.

The problem is, he's a convicted criminal on the run, and no one voted for him.

You don't see a problem in that?

Not the least bit.

The only crowd who sees that Thaksin court thing as anything other than politically motivated, and part of the Thaksin demonization campaign I referenced, are those trying to 'normalize the abnormal" today, with respect to the judiciary and Ind. Org's.

There is an attempt to reprise this whole thing now, using many of the same tactics as were used in 2006.....Although they are trying to be more subtle now......By not using the military, they hope to obscure their intentions from an International audience.

That little add-on via edit, about no-one voting for Thaksin is folderol....He was duly elected until the unelectable Elites "unelected him" in 2006....His association with the last election was huge and transparent...The electorate governed themselves accordingly.....They are quite happy to see his influence, and voted for it....Only the electorally-challenged PAD-Dem's are unhappy......But blinded to the need to "reform themselves before an election".

You don't see a problem in someone running a country that wasn't elected, interesting, and I love your attempts to rewrite history once again. So blind. So sad. I'll let all the other convicted criminals on the run worldwide know that it's not a problem, you can rape and pillage to your hearts content, be convicted, but still run a country even though they weren't on the ballot. They'll be so happy.

So, did Thaksin do ANYTHING illegal prior to his conviction in your blinkered tiny little mind? Or is he completely innocent of all charges?

By the way, the only attempt to reprise/rewrite anything just now are your attempts to whitewash Thaksin and PT of any wrongdoing and your attempts to legitimize his criminal actions. Thankfully, the "majority" of the sane people in Thailand can see through it.

Give it up. 'Bob', can't and won't be reasonable. He has a mission and he will let neither logic nor the facts stand in his way. He seems to have no moral compass nor pride. Sad, really.

Does anyone believe Boppe's rhetoric extolling the complete innocence of the convicted criminal fugitive, ignoring the 15 charges waiting trial. All written off as "politically motivated" eh, even before any evidence is presented? The hidden assets really was an honest mistake after all eh Bop? Just a misunderstood self proclaimed genius who should be above all this law and elections nonsense.

He wasn't elected, or even dares to come back and face the music, but it's still o k for him to run the country? Very democratic indeed! Just like his attempts to stifle critics and free speech with his threats of law suits, and use of the top cyber policeman to threaten social media posters. Laughable that a convicted criminal on the run can order the government and police what to do, Clearly, he's above the law and that's perfectly o k with Boppe.

Does anyone really believe these Fresian Boppe posts are written by an aged expat from a rural region of the Netherlands?

By a coincidence from the same country with the capitol of Amsterdan?

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[pmugghc]

Steve, you miss.my point. Why are we here now?

Because the judiciary is so bent. I made no comment about who is right or wrong. A strong independent judiciary has had 80 years to be created ..Thaksin has been in power on and off for 10.

The first judgement on his assets is.probably the start of the whole problem. An expedient decision that this country has paid dearly for.

The judiciary is not bent!!!

If a red shirt admits to stealing a car in Chiang Mai, he goes to court and the judiciary find him not guilty and free him. is that correct?

Well that is what you are implying. If he is found guilty then it's an ammart conspiracy against him.

If Yingluck had acted properly and not been a serial liar and breaker of laws then she wouldn't have to worry about the courts.

She is always breaking the law and so she must spend some court time before being unceremoniously retired in disgrace!!

even the most hardened yellow I know (and there are very,very few - but I have managed to find one or two) "get it" about the judicial system here

except it seems your goodself who appears to see Thailand through the beautiful rose color of illusion - but I accept it must be comforting to believe all is well

Indeed. The initial judgement that Thaksin hadn't hidden his assets is the perfect example of how the judiciary goes with the wind of the season.

You're hard to pin, sometimes I like your posts, sometimes I really dislike them.

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[kimamey]

"....or whether his group's proposal was in support of the anti-government People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC), which is pushing an agenda of reform prior to the next general election"

Wow, don't these people realize this guy is a "red flag walking" to an electoral majority who accuse him of having a major role in the 2006 coup caper, and of political interference the last 10 years that has severely curtailed development of Democracy.....No amount of Elitist aggrandizement changes that...It just pee's them off when they see it......Additionally, are there only so-called "Statesmen" on one side of the political divide?

Amazing how out-of-touch and insulated these people are, to propose such a thing....Obviously insulated within their own Elitist circles......

To even float any political notion related to governance that isn't electorally rooted, is a coup.......When will these people realize their un-Democratic musings just inflames the majority electorate more. ...Catering to their minority is a losing proposition.

Also, suggesting this is some sort of unknown grouping suggesting this thing, is just some more phony DP segmentation effort...But in reality, different groups-same faces.

They are probably among the crowd who can only demonize major swaths of the electorate as not being of their station, and therefore not given credit for any degree of Politicization. By denigrating them as being uni-dimensionally attached to Thaksin and or only 'moved' to political stuff for money, they diminish any hope of electoral success anytime soon.

That said, the quote "(PDRC), which is pushing an agenda of reform prior to the next general election"....really ought to be "reform themselves, before the next election" if they have any hope of making electoral progress.

But their Elitist arrogance prevents them from seeing beyond their nose in this regard.

Wow, you should write for Khaosod or another paper . . . love that political rhetoric, and in this case I (kind of) agree, Prem is NOT the best choice as he is NOT independent and doesn't have a great track history.

However, putting that aside for one moment, can we finally put one thing to bed, who is actually running this country currently, it's Thaksin from afar:

Pheu Thai sources said earlier that fugitive de-facto party leader Thaksin Shinawatra had instructed party legal advisers to fight to ensure that even if future rulings are made against caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra or the party's policies, Pheu Thai could remain in power with a deputy premier or another cabinet member carrying on the government's caretaker status.

The sources said Thaksin ordered that a general election had to be held as quickly as possible, with a member of the Shinawatra family as the candidate of Pheu Thai party. The sources visited Thaksin in Hong Kong last week, but only told reporters of Thaksin's orders yesterday.

"....can we finally put one thing to bed, who is actually running this country currently, it's Thaksin from afar..."

And is that a problem?....Either him and his electorally-based political elements are running the country, or the 2006 coup-makers are. They were rejected by the electorate, in spite of their best efforts to justify their power grab by demonizing Thaksin.

One side has electoral legitimacy, the other does not. What is it about that, which people don't understand?

There, we put it to bed.

I stand corrected FB has replied.

The problem is that in a democracy everyone votes for candidates that are put forward for election. The party which wins the most seats forms the government either in a coalition or with an outright majority. In 2011 that was the PTP. That means that even if someone voted Democrat Yingluck would still be their PM and would be expected to govern all Thais regardless of their vote. It also means that Democrat voters have to accept Yingluck as their PM and and PTP as the governing party. There's nothing in the 'essence of democracy' as you once put it about them having to accept someone who received no votes controlling the government whilst being unchecked by the laws of Thailand which cover MPs of all sides. What is it about that which you don't understand.

From the election until November last year the normal democratic process was followed with the Democrat party (they're the ones you claim don't want democracy) as the opposition and the PM avoiding parliament whenever possible. What caused the problem last year was the 'it's not all about Thaksin party' doing all they could for Thaksin and trying to get him an amnesty. This not only upset the Democrats for obvious reasons but pro government supporters as well as it includes an amnesty for Suthep and Abhisit as well even though they didn't want one. That's probably the reason for the protests at that time as there seemed to be splits in the government support.

There are also questions about the stopping of the amnesty for low level crimes by red shirts as agreed by the Democrats but stopped by Thaksin. That is more of an issue for the PTP voters but the covering up by the PTP of killings by the army in 2010 would seem to suggest a lack of legitimacy as well.

My wife voted Democrat in 2011 and no she's not a coup maker. She accepted the result but said after the election that the PTP would probably be OK if they take things slowly. This is the problem for them. There's nothing wrong with rice subsidies as such and the Democrats had something similar as well. It was the high level of overpayment that caused the problems. Similarly minimum wages are a good idea but again it was the massive increase in one go that was the problem.

So you see not everyone is against all that PTP do it's the lack of democratic principle in who runs the country that's the issue.

[bigbamboo]

Dr Thaksin ???? Is he a doctor also now ? I what field ?

Yes, from the "prestigious" Eastern Kentucky Uni. It's ranked at #48:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/eastern-kentucky-university-1963/rankings

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Eastern Kentucky would love to be ranked anywhere near 48 in the States.

They are currently ranked 11 in Kentucky.

[pmugghc]

"....can we finally put one thing to bed, who is actually running this country currently, it's Thaksin from afar..."

And is that a problem?....Either him and his electorally-based political elements are running the country, or the 2006 coup-makers are. They were rejected by the electorate, in spite of their best efforts to justify their power grab by demonizing Thaksin.

One side has electoral legitimacy, the other does not. What is it about that, which people don't understand?

There, we put it to bed.

Thank you for agreeing that Thaksin is actually running this country, finally.

The problem is, he's a convicted criminal on the run, and no one voted for him.

You don't see a problem in that?

"The problem is, he's a convicted criminal on the run, and no one voted for him.

You don't see a problem in that?"

Not the least bit.

The only crowd who sees that Thaksin court thing as anything other than politically motivated, and part of the Thaksin demonization campaign I referenced, are those trying to 'normalize the abnormal" today, with respect to the judiciary and Ind. Org's.

There is an attempt to reprise this whole thing now, using many of the same tactics as were used in 2006.....Although they are trying to be more subtle now......By not using the military, they hope to obscure their intentions from an International audience.

That little add-on via edit, about no-one voting for Thaksin is folderol....He was duly elected until the unelectable Elites "unelected him" in 2006....His association with the last election was huge and transparent...The electorate governed themselves accordingly.....They are quite happy to see his influence, and voted for it....Only the electorally-challenged PAD-Dem's are unhappy......But blinded to the need to "reform themselves before an election".

You don't see a problem in someone running a country that wasn't elected, interesting, and I love your attempts to rewrite history once again. So blind. So sad. I'll let all the other convicted criminals on the run worldwide know that it's not a problem, you can rape and pillage to your hearts content, be convicted, but still run a country even though they weren't on the ballot. They'll be so happy.

So, did Thaksin do ANYTHING illegal prior to his conviction in your blinkered tiny little mind? Or is he completely innocent of all charges?

By the way, the only attempt to reprise/rewrite anything just now are your attempts to whitewash Thaksin and PT of any wrongdoing and your attempts to legitimize his criminal actions. Thankfully, the "majority" of the sane people in Thailand can see through it.

Give it up. 'Bob', can't and won't be reasonable. He has a mission and he will let neither logic nor the facts stand in his way. He seems to have no moral compass nor pride. Sad, really.

But maybe some incentives? "You want boy you want girl"?

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[pmugghc]

Dr Thaksin ???? Is he a doctor also now ? I what field ?

Yes, from the "prestigious" Eastern Kentucky Uni. It's ranked at #48:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/eastern-kentucky-university-1963/rankings

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Eastern Kentucky would love to be ranked anywhere near 48 in the States.

They are currently ranked 11 in Kentucky.

Thanks, do you have a source? Some profiling of the place?

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[pmugghc]

So, did Thaksin do ANYTHING illegal prior to his conviction in your blinkered tiny little mind?" (Quote fromTatsujin, Post #18 above)

Not if the source of those accusations are rooted and sourced from the Coup-makers and all their appendages, as part of their demonization of Thaksin in order to validate themselves.

Lest anyone think that this opinion is aberrational, let me remind you that it reflects the Electoral Majority. Their very objective, measurable electoral actions support it......It is why there is such a concerted effort to silence that electoral majority, clearly evidenced this last election and by the Lumpini crowd, and their associates...........Check where the aberration is...It is not with this majority and this opinion, but the anti-democratic minority..

However, the greatest aberration, are those Farangs coming from countries with democratic traditions, who by consistently dumping on Thaksin, Ms. Y and the elected PTP, are effectively sympathizing with those who advocate a “Civilian Dictatorship” to replace Electoral and Parliamentary Democracy…….I am not one of those!

Yeah I can't even spell aberrational Bob. Can you please comment on the 2001 court judgment? Was the asset concealment case ok?

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[rametindallas]

Prem Tinsulanonda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Tinsulanonda

After all the demonizing of Prem after the 2006 coup and Prem being accused of pulling the strings of the mysterious 'third hand'. I can't see how Gen. Prem can be effective in this role (nor will Thaksin accept him) and that is why I think he will refuse to be the mediator. Dr. Thaksin will not accept anything less than one of his puppets being in charge and Suthep, who may be to only man in Thailand as stubborn as Thaksin, will not accept any Thaksin puppets in a future government. I am not saying this is democratic in any way, as both men abhor democracy. Dr. Thaksin has approached Suthep several times wanting to cut a secret, back-room deal but Suthep remains adamant on public discussions of the future of democracy in Thailand; besides, he can't trust Thaksin to abide by any secret deals. Would you?

So, Thailand will plod along with nothing changing except the days of the calendar until something dramatic happens. I expect the courts will precipitate the only changes in the near future.

You are assuming that Thaksin and Suthep need to be part of this. One is a convicted criminal and the other has charges against him. Why should they be part of this?

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Well, Thaksin controls the PTP which can mobilize 45% of the electorate on a good day and Suthep leads the movement that has the whole country tied in knots since November. I wasn't aware of any other power players in this game. Please tell me, if not Thaksin and Suthep, who will make the decisions here? I suppose the acting President of the Senate could nominate a replacement, temporary PM for Royal Endorsement and that would bypass both T and S but I'm sure PTP would involve the courts if that was done. How do you think the issue of succession will play out?

I have to stay away from the issue of succession, but I don't think the whole country relies on just two people. There are many RS's that don't follow Thaksin and many non-PTP who don't follow Suthep. Then there is the whole question of whether democracy is right for Thailand given the numerous related problems. If it ends up not a democracy, then the 20-30% of the eligible voters (but still majority) doesn't matter. There are just so many questions that nothing is cut and dry.

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How do you think the issue of succession will play out?

I'm talking about the decision of who will succeed Yingluck as PM and that will be decided by either Thaksin or Suthep. Thailand will stay a democracy; the world community will put pressure for that to continue.

[bigbamboo]

Dr Thaksin ???? Is he a doctor also now ? I what field ?

Yes, from the "prestigious" Eastern Kentucky Uni. It's ranked at #48:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/eastern-kentucky-university-1963/rankings

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Eastern Kentucky would love to be ranked anywhere near 48 in the States.

They are currently ranked 11 in Kentucky.

Thanks, do you have a source? Some profiling of the place?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

USA Ranking Web of Universities. Their rankings seem pretty sound. Not many would argue against a top 5 of Harvard, Mass Tech, Stanford, Cornell and Columbia.

I must admit to an error though. Eastern Kentucky is ranked 4th in Kentucky, 325th in America and 1187th in the world. I was thinking of Yingluck's American university which is ranked 11th in Kentucky and does not feature in the top 1000 in the world.

As a point of reference, Chiang Mai University's world ranking is 280.

Edited April 15, 2014 by bigbamboo

[JAG]

First a history of military coups. Then a Court coup. Now a Covenant coup? Thailand politics seem to have an unlimited imagination when it comes to obstructing or destroying democracy but mindless when it comes to preserving it. Hopefully the EC will see to its responsibility to cease obstructing new elections and cooperate with the Government to get the country moving forward once again to the re-establishment of a democratically elected administraion.

If, as you say, democracy is having problems surviving in Thailand, then perhaps democracy is not the right system for Thailand.

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I stated this months ago - Thailand needs a helping hand and is not mature enough for democracy. What it needs is benign dictatorship!!

The trouble with benign dictatorships is that to survive they have to suppress any opposition. Unless that opposition is supine ( and in Thailand it won't be) then they pretty soon stop being benign, and have to become ruthless.

With the anticipated unhappy event this bunch are old men in a hurry. They will be ruthless.

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What is your view of Singapore? Is it a democracy? Not benign, in my view, but one of the best educational systems anywhere and people who could move away, don't leave.

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I'm afraid I don't have a view on Singapore, having only been there once to change planes, and my only memory is of a diminutive (and rather pretty) nurse standing on a box in order to take my temperature as I came off the aeroplane - it was during the SARS scare. It does have a smashing airport though.

I still contend that a benign dictatorship cannot remain benign if it is actively opposed. Those who are familiar with my posts will know that I firmly believe that elections are the only legitimate way to produce a government. I know many here argue that the majority are not fit to vote, I argue that the minority are not entitled to deny or ignore the vote.

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[Morch]

"Perhaps he (FB) is just a chap from the rural coastal Netherlands, who holds views on the current situation which are not shared by many/most on this board, and who has the time and interest to make them public" (Quote from Post #83 - Jag)

Not shared by many/most on this board, but reflecting the views among UDD/RS's, which happen to make up the bulk of the electoral majority.

The attempt to make those views appear to be aberrational does not take into account that majority/minority reality....In fact, seeking to make the majority view aberrational, and their minority one normative, just doesn't fly, other than among those minority accolytes............The real world doesn't compute that way.

I do wish you'd stop using the "electoral majority" bit.

The PTP had a majority in Parliament, not a popular vote majority - the UDD aren't a party.

The majority in Parliament was not due to getting the majority of votes, but due to Thailand's elections system (party list and constituencies). They got more votes than the Democrat Party, they were the largest party - that's about it, no need to overdo it.

"I do wish you'd stop using the "electoral majority" bit"

Perfectly understandable that unelectables would be bothered by that....It is an inconvenient truth, as Al would say.

Until the Governing Majority in Parliament, based on electoral realities changes, the majority/minority characterization remains.

This reality is particularly bothersome when those in Lumpini Park are trying to ignore it, and framing their coup advocacy as being between them and a small governing braintrust, instead of a nation-wide electorate.....The notion of them being up against an electoral majority makes their minority status appear to be even more miniscule.

All their noise and dreaming about governing options that are not electorally rooted, reflects this basic disrespect for the Thai electorate.....An electorate that impresses the H... out of me, for their ability to see through the smoke the anti-PTP/UDD/RS and pro-Ammart media assaults them, come election time.

I am not standing for election, if that's what you meant by "unelectable".

Governing majority is a more accurate term, maybe stick with it?

No one is denying the PTP had a majority in Parliament, and not many with their feet on the ground (certainly not myself) will claim that the opposition (Democrat Party, PDRC - whatever suits you) holds ANY kind of majority. Also nothing in my post that says anything about the legitimacy of them holding power.

The point made was that they do not have electoral majority as in having more than 50% of the popular vote. Your posts keep harping on the majority thing, insinuating that they represent the majority of Thai people - which they do not.

[Morch]

When talking about what was legit, and what was not, focus on what the coup-makers did before and after their 2006 coup-caper....Not on what they said Thaksin did or did not do.....Overthrowing an elected Govt. because of their electoral futility essentially renders their action and pronouncements null and void.....Especially when they are steeped in self-serving justifications of illegal and anti-democratic actions.

The voters in the subsequent election made that very clear. My opinion reflects those voters, not that of the coup-makers.....At its' heart, this is all about electoral and parliamentary Democracy, and not seeking to validate actions opposed to that......One sees similar motives that tolerate the Lumpini thing., especially when that crowd is more military than Political

I wasn't protecting the coup of 2006 at all. Just asking you if you think that everything Thaksin did was legit, regardless of the coup. In other words, do you believe that the since there was a coup it necessarily means that everything Thaksin did was alright. Counting votes is not a usually accepted method of ascertaining these matters.

"Counting votes is not a usually accepted method of ascertaining these matters"

Yes. it is.

Both the opposition and the Governemnt have every opportunity during both televised Parliamentary sessions and election campaigns, to inform and convince the electorate of their take on things.

The voters will vet that, and determine what is Oppositional folderol and what is legit....They may conclude to turf that dastardly Govt, or decide that the Opposition stuff lacks merit.

And then indeed, ascertain these matters with their votes.

The unelectables and anti-democratic types have a difficult time getting that through their head...Respecting voters and their decisions.

Until they figure that out, reform themselves before elections, then perhaps Thailand can be better served with competitive elections.

So....you would support a vote in Parliament (or better yet, elections or national referendum) each and every time a politician is accused or charged with an offense? I don't believe there's a single country which applies a similar legal system. Maybe that could be Thailand's heritage to the world.

But the question was not about the government being dastardly or not, just whether you think the coup basically makes anything Thaksin did legitimate.