Martial law is not a coup: Thai Army chief

[xminator]

What legal/constitutional authority does the Thai Army have to declare Martial Law?

It is legal as long as it is to prevent violence / civil war like situations. It is legal as long as the caretaker government is still in charge. It is legal as long as it does not block a new election.

Once the situations is used to

- let the Senate appoint a non elected PM

- the caretaker government is ignored

- the new cres/cddr or whatever it is called this time around becomes the "government" and its leader the new "pm"

- the constitution is no longer followed to the letter - "reforms"

You have a military coup even if they insist it is not.

[MGP]

If not a coup, why would they not have done this in conjunction without consulting the govt?

How does taking over media outlets fit what he is saying also?

Surely if they announced this with the govt and kept both side separated, then everyone would be happy. But now it still looks like another power play.

Probably because the govt was not interested in peace? 1) caretaker minster's adviser caught transporting M16 war weapons, 2) CAPO states they will protect reds who are not being attacked!, but adds "we believe violent attacks against the PRDC will (should?) continue!" (dozens killed, 100s wounded, blah, blah). Just guessing here, I don't think the government thought peace was in their own personal interest, but M16s were.

I agree totally. Drag them kicking and screaming but still leave them there until an election can be held. Use the military to safeguard the election to reduce the cheating that happens on both sides.

The consequences of the military taking over will not be good for the people of Thailand

Whatever the consequences, they will surely be better than more people dying or getting injured from the never-controlled violence.

[h90]

Ridiculous. If it's not a coup is the caretaker PM still in charge?

acting caretaker deputy placeholder PM

[h90]

What legal/constitutional authority does the Thai Army have to declare Martial Law?

Believe it or not, the Thai Army has the right to declare martial law, granted by the Thai Constitution.

The Red's were starting to mass and it looks as if the army declared martial law to keep the antagonists separated.

Martial Law won't resolve the ongoing political crisis, it only delays the day of reckoning...

And guns were found and a lot Cambodians were hired and reds did some kind of military training.

[millwall_fan]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

What legal/constitutional authority does the Thai Army have to declare Martial Law?

when you have lots of guns, tanks and planes at your disposal, you don't need much more to enforce your legitimacy!

[h90]

Prayuth has in swift order obtained the kind of control most would not have thought possible. He did it by keeping it close to the vest. He did not inform Niwattumrong in advance, nor CAPO - whose services have been relieved - nor some other agencies more loyal to Pheu Thai. Jatuporn has likely been taken completely off-guard. His rally has been completely surrounded and contained. The PDRC has called off their walk in deference to the military. Prayuth's actions bring an immediate sense of control and has lowered the temperature considerably. But his actions also leave clues. The impediments that Pheu Thai was routinely erecting against the Senate, the Constitutional Court, the NACC, and the PDRC - have all vanished. Though the Pheu Thai administration is still there ( to say " in charge " would be pushing it ) it is also clear that this move came after talks with the Senate and Niwattumrong broke down yesterday after he refused to step down. As a consequence, all obstructions for the Senate's deliberation have now been removed. Quite likely they will do what they have been quietly preparing to do, and that is nominate a prime minister. Contrary to the believe of many, they will truly find someone who is acceptable to both Pheu Thai and the Democratic party. What moves the Senate first and foremost is the awareness that the country - and this would be true for any country - can't function indefinitely without a fully functioning prime minister and cabinet. Likely, they would have limited powers, and would provide the kind of climate where finally a real discussion among all parties can take place, and reform can slowly take shape through such a consensus. It is as hopeful a climate as we've seen in a long time, and it will require the interest and participation of all Thais.

"they will truly find someone who is acceptable to both Pheu Thai and the Democratic party."

Acceptable for Thaksin (PTP) means a family member. Which isn't acceptable for anyone else.

The only one else that I could think of would be Banharn......He can switch sides so fast, that it appears that he is on both sides at the same time

[xminator]

Prayuth has in swift order obtained the kind of control most would not have thought possible. He did it by keeping it close to the vest. He did not inform Niwattumrong in advance, nor CAPO - whose services have been relieved - nor some other agencies more loyal to Pheu Thai. Jatuporn has likely been taken completely off-guard. His rally has been completely surrounded and contained. The PDRC has called off their walk in deference to the military. Prayuth's actions bring an immediate sense of control and has lowered the temperature considerably. But his actions also leave clues. The impediments that Pheu Thai was routinely erecting against the Senate, the Constitutional Court, the NACC, and the PDRC - have all vanished. Though the Pheu Thai administration is still there ( to say " in charge " would be pushing it ) it is also clear that this move came after talks with the Senate and Niwattumrong broke down yesterday after he refused to step down. As a consequence, all obstructions for the Senate's deliberation have now been removed. Quite likely they will do what they have been quietly preparing to do, and that is nominate a prime minister. Contrary to the believe of many, they will truly find someone who is acceptable to both Pheu Thai and the Democratic party. What moves the Senate first and foremost is the awareness that the country - and this would be true for any country - can't function indefinitely without a fully functioning prime minister and cabinet. Likely, they would have limited powers, and would provide the kind of climate where finally a real discussion among all parties can take place, and reform can slowly take shape through such a consensus. It is as hopeful a climate as we've seen in a long time, and it will require the interest and participation of all Thais.

What you describe is a military coup, it is against the constitution and the only way for Prayuth to avoid legal problems - following what you describe - is to make a new constitution. The way out is elections, not a gun to PT executives heads with orders to find the situation acceptable. You describe a failed state under military dictatorship. Even if it is headed by some civilian establishment clone. (Not abhisit this time, that would be too transparent)

In my naivity I hope CRES with its leader Prayuth orders the EC to get its thumb out and organize an election. As long as Prayuth uses the martial law to keep the monk, Suthep and UDD from marching and makes sure the election is held, he is well within the constitution and have done his job.

[noitom]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Prayuth has in swift order obtained the kind of control most would not have thought possible. He did it by keeping it close to the vest. He did not inform Niwattumrong in advance, nor CAPO - whose services have been relieved - nor some other agencies more loyal to Pheu Thai. Jatuporn has likely been taken completely off-guard. His rally has been completely surrounded and contained. The PDRC has called off their walk in deference to the military. Prayuth's actions bring an immediate sense of control and has lowered the temperature considerably. But his actions also leave clues. The impediments that Pheu Thai was routinely erecting against the Senate, the Constitutional Court, the NACC, and the PDRC - have all vanished. Though the Pheu Thai administration is still there ( to say " in charge " would be pushing it ) it is also clear that this move came after talks with the Senate and Niwattumrong broke down yesterday after he refused to step down. As a consequence, all obstructions for the Senate's deliberation have now been removed. Quite likely they will do what they have been quietly preparing to do, and that is nominate a prime minister. Contrary to the believe of many, they will truly find someone who is acceptable to both Pheu Thai and the Democratic party. What moves the Senate first and foremost is the awareness that the country - and this would be true for any country - can't function indefinitely without a fully functioning prime minister and cabinet. Likely, they would have limited powers, and would provide the kind of climate where finally a real discussion among all parties can take place, and reform can slowly take shape through such a consensus. It is as hopeful a climate as we've seen in a long time, and it will require the interest and participation of all Thais.

The role of the military supposedly is to ensure the designation of political candidates for election, and to ensure that election not to baby sit the inner circle while they manipulate issues and so called 'reforms." Until a government head interim or acting addresses the nation and describes next steps, it is a military coup and currently a dictatorship based on the description of "martial law" actions controlled by the military.

[TimCM]

If not a coup, why would they not have done this in conjunction without consulting the govt?

How does taking over media outlets fit what he is saying also?

Surely if they announced this with the govt and kept both side separated, then everyone would be happy. But now it still looks like another power play.

Probably because the govt was not interested in peace? 1) caretaker minster's adviser caught transporting M16 war weapons, 2) CAPO states they will protect reds who are not being attacked!, but adds "we believe violent attacks against the PRDC will (should?) continue!" (dozens killed, 100s wounded, blah, blah). Just guessing here, I don't think the government thought peace was in their own personal interest, but M16s were.

I agree totally. Drag them kicking and screaming but still leave them there until an election can be held. Use the military to safeguard the election to reduce the cheating that happens on both sides.

The consequences of the military taking over will not be good for the people of Thailand

Whatever the consequences, they will surely be better than more people dying or getting injured from the never-controlled violence.

Yes, you seemed to miss my point. I said the same thing. I think the military working for security is a good thing, but they should still work with the govt. I don't think any here would want to see the bloodshed that would happen if the 2 sides met up n the streets of BK.

The consequences refer to loss of income for the people. Here in Australia the govt was just on radio telling people to not travel there

[Hulkster]

If not a coup, why would they not have done this in conjunction without consulting the govt?

How does taking over media outlets fit what he is saying also?

Surely if they announced this with the govt and kept both side separated, then everyone would be happy. But now it still looks like another power play.

Probably because the govt was not interested in peace? 1) caretaker minster's adviser caught transporting M16 war weapons, 2) CAPO states they will protect reds who are not being attacked!, but adds "we believe violent attacks against the PRDC will (should?) continue!" (dozens killed, 100s wounded, blah, blah). Just guessing here, I don't think the government thought peace was in their own personal interest, but M16s were.

I agree totally. Drag them kicking and screaming but still leave them there until an election can be held. Use the military to safeguard the election to reduce the cheating that happens on both sides.

The consequences of the military taking over will not be good for the people of Thailand

Whatever the consequences, they will surely be better than more people dying or getting injured from the never-controlled violence.

It's not going to stop anything. The Bangkok elite are intent on retaining the stranglehold they have always held on the country and the red shirts are intent on retaining basic civil rights.

This just fuels more hatred since the red shirts said there would always be a coup.

It's different this time. The red shirts have had sand kicked in their faces one too many times. They won't back down until they the civil rights they have been denied.

There will be martial law indefinitely. There will be an insurgency using guerilla tactics. Bangkok will be a miserable place to live.

[noitom]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Prayuth has in swift order obtained the kind of control most would not have thought possible. He did it by keeping it close to the vest. He did not inform Niwattumrong in advance, nor CAPO - whose services have been relieved - nor some other agencies more loyal to Pheu Thai. Jatuporn has likely been taken completely off-guard. His rally has been completely surrounded and contained. The PDRC has called off their walk in deference to the military. Prayuth's actions bring an immediate sense of control and has lowered the temperature considerably. But his actions also leave clues. The impediments that Pheu Thai was routinely erecting against the Senate, the Constitutional Court, the NACC, and the PDRC - have all vanished. Though the Pheu Thai administration is still there ( to say " in charge " would be pushing it ) it is also clear that this move came after talks with the Senate and Niwattumrong broke down yesterday after he refused to step down. As a consequence, all obstructions for the Senate's deliberation have now been removed. Quite likely they will do what they have been quietly preparing to do, and that is nominate a prime minister. Contrary to the believe of many, they will truly find someone who is acceptable to both Pheu Thai and the Democratic party. What moves the Senate first and foremost is the awareness that the country - and this would be true for any country - can't function indefinitely without a fully functioning prime minister and cabinet. Likely, they would have limited powers, and would provide the kind of climate where finally a real discussion among all parties can take place, and reform can slowly take shape through such a consensus. It is as hopeful a climate as we've seen in a long time, and it will require the interest and participation of all Thais.

What you describe is a military coup, it is against the constitution and the only way for Prayuth to avoid legal problems - following what you describe - is to make a new constitution. The way out is elections, not a gun to PT executives heads with orders to find the situation acceptable. You describe a failed state under military dictatorship. Even if it is headed by some civilian establishment clone. (Not abhisit this time, that would be too transparent)

In my naivity I hope CRES with its leader Prayuth orders the EC to get its thumb out and organize an election. As long as Prayuth uses the martial law to keep the monk, Suthep and UDD from marching and makes sure the election is held, he is well within the constitution and have done his job.

Exactly.

[MMarlow]

Ridiculous. If it's not a coup is the caretaker PM still in charge?

There is a difference between a coup and martial law. The PM and the government have not been ousted.

[whybother]

Whatever name you call it, it means one thing -- that we no longer have a civilian state.

If there is still a civilian care-taker PM, we still have a civilian state.

[xminator]

If not a coup, why would they not have done this in conjunction without consulting the govt?

How does taking over media outlets fit what he is saying also?

Surely if they announced this with the govt and kept both side separated, then everyone would be happy. But now it still looks like another power play.

Probably because the govt was not interested in peace? 1) caretaker minster's adviser caught transporting M16 war weapons, 2) CAPO states they will protect reds who are not being attacked!, but adds "we believe violent attacks against the PRDC will (should?) continue!" (dozens killed, 100s wounded, blah, blah). Just guessing here, I don't think the government thought peace was in their own personal interest, but M16s were.

I agree totally. Drag them kicking and screaming but still leave them there until an election can be held. Use the military to safeguard the election to reduce the cheating that happens on both sides.

The consequences of the military taking over will not be good for the people of Thailand

Whatever the consequences, they will surely be better than more people dying or getting injured from the never-controlled violence.

It will all depend on what happens next. A free election - no violence. If Prayuth is working for the establishment and a non elected PM/Government is installed and allowed to exercise power outside the constitution to make "reforms", you will have violence if the establishment uses the army like in 2010. Because such a government will see opposition by the majority of the voter base. You will see another red gathering in Bangkok once they let of the martial law. And they WILL have to lift the martial law some time or see this years tourist disaster seem like a pothole.

If this is a move to force trough some pdrc reforms it will only deepen the divide in Thailand.

[h90]

Prayuth has in swift order obtained the kind of control most would not have thought possible. He did it by keeping it close to the vest. He did not inform Niwattumrong in advance, nor CAPO - whose services have been relieved - nor some other agencies more loyal to Pheu Thai. Jatuporn has likely been taken completely off-guard. His rally has been completely surrounded and contained. The PDRC has called off their walk in deference to the military. Prayuth's actions bring an immediate sense of control and has lowered the temperature considerably. But his actions also leave clues. The impediments that Pheu Thai was routinely erecting against the Senate, the Constitutional Court, the NACC, and the PDRC - have all vanished. Though the Pheu Thai administration is still there ( to say " in charge " would be pushing it ) it is also clear that this move came after talks with the Senate and Niwattumrong broke down yesterday after he refused to step down. As a consequence, all obstructions for the Senate's deliberation have now been removed. Quite likely they will do what they have been quietly preparing to do, and that is nominate a prime minister. Contrary to the believe of many, they will truly find someone who is acceptable to both Pheu Thai and the Democratic party. What moves the Senate first and foremost is the awareness that the country - and this would be true for any country - can't function indefinitely without a fully functioning prime minister and cabinet. Likely, they would have limited powers, and would provide the kind of climate where finally a real discussion among all parties can take place, and reform can slowly take shape through such a consensus. It is as hopeful a climate as we've seen in a long time, and it will require the interest and participation of all Thais.

What you describe is a military coup, it is against the constitution and the only way for Prayuth to avoid legal problems - following what you describe - is to make a new constitution. The way out is elections, not a gun to PT executives heads with orders to find the situation acceptable. You describe a failed state under military dictatorship. Even if it is headed by some civilian establishment clone. (Not abhisit this time, that would be too transparent)

In my naivity I hope CRES with its leader Prayuth orders the EC to get its thumb out and organize an election. As long as Prayuth uses the martial law to keep the monk, Suthep and UDD from marching and makes sure the election is held, he is well within the constitution and have done his job.

I was here during the military dictatorship....And it was the best government I have ever seen in Thailand. I wouldn't call it failed.

[binjalin]

Whatever name you call it, it means one thing -- that we no longer have a civilian state.

If there is still a civilian care-taker PM, we still have a civilian state.

and he has power over the Military as in USA? Europe? or any other democratic country? no? so it's PLAINLY not a civilian state because the elected PM is not in control and the General has pulled the plug on TV stations etc. etc. and did not even consult the PM about the Martial Law

[gemini81]

Until a government head addresses the Thai nation and describes next steps, it is in fact a military coup and currently a military dictatorship.

Try reading the article. The gov't is still in office. This is an old right granted by decades old law. Its a constitutional monarchy did you forget?

[whybother]

Whatever name you call it, it means one thing -- that we no longer have a civilian state.

If there is still a civilian care-taker PM, we still have a civilian state.

and he has power over the Military as in USA? Europe? or any other democratic country? no? so it's PLAINLY not a civilian state because the elected PM is not in control and the General has pulled the plug on TV stations etc. etc. and did not even consult the PM about the Martial Law

When did a Thai civilian PM ever have control over the army?

[xminator]

CAPO is suspended. Army set up alternative PKCC.

It looks like the UDD rally get special attention as opposed to Sutheps rally.

Articles of the constitution will be suspended.

The army excersices heavy media censorship.

It looks more like a military coup then anything else right now.

[See the bears]

Ridiculous. If it's not a coup is the caretaker PM still in charge?

There is a difference between a coup and martial law. The PM and the government have not been ousted.

Create power vacuum by courts - take over security by army - appoint government by senate

Game, set & match

Reds can't do anything or army will shoot them.

Of course in the long run it only deepens the hatred & division.

[somjitr]

Whatever name you call it, it means one thing -- that we no longer have a civilian state.

If there is still a civilian care-taker PM, we still have a civilian state.

and he has power over the Military as in USA? Europe? or any other democratic country? no? so it's PLAINLY not a civilian state because the elected PM is not in control and the General has pulled the plug on TV stations etc. etc. and did not even consult the PM about the Martial Law

When did a Thai civilian PM ever have control over the army?

I'm sorry. Let me correct my post. We have never been a civilian state and now it's just very clear.

[gemini81]

Ridiculous. If it's not a coup is the caretaker PM still in charge?

There is a difference between a coup and martial law. The PM and the government have not been ousted.

Create power vacuum by courts - take over security by army - appoint government by senate

Game, set & match

Reds can't do anything or army will shoot them.

Of course in the long run it only deepens the hatred & division.

Well, hopefully one thing they they don't do is shoot the army, which is what they did a few years ago- not sure they learned their lesson yet. Then played martyr. Kind of how you're trying imply they are the victims/the martyrs again

Edited May 20, 2014 by gemini81

[mccw]

Some of you westerners are living in an idealistic dream world.

Same wrong thinking that has plunged the Middle East in to chaos. Democracy yeehaa best system ever and must be applied everywhere.

Seems the evidence is that some places are not suited to it. Especially the places where the elected governments are supporting terrorists and attacks on innocent civilians.

Egypt a good example of where kicking out an elected government is a good move too.

[Thailand]

Until a government head addresses the Thai nation and describes next steps, it is in fact a military coup and currently a military dictatorship.

exactly

Lets hope this happens

Just look up current & past military dictatorships worldwide and see if that is what you want?

[Thailand]

It's a coup.

Interesting to see where Suthep stands now and then we will know where his power base really lies.

All hail the supreme leader?

[webfact]

Army chief: Martial law not a military coup

BANGKOK, 20 May 2014 (NNT) - Thailand's army declared martial law nationwide on Tuesday to restore order after six months of street protests that have left the country without a proper functioning government, but denied that the surprise move amounted to a military coup.

Army chief General Prayuth Chan-ocha said the military was taking charge of public security because of violent protests that had claimed many lives and caused extensive damage. He also asked all those activist groups to cease all activities and cooperate with the army in seeking a way out of the crisis, adding that the imposition of martial law is not a coup d'?tat.

Gen Prayuth has invited directors of government agencies and other high-ranking officials to a meeting. Provincial governors and top officials have been summoned to meet the army at regional centers.

The army has also called on the media not to broadcast material that would affect national security.

Meanwhile, Acting Prime Minister Niwatthamrong Boonsongphaisan is calling a cabinet meeting at an undisclosed location to discuss the situation.


-- NNT 2014-05-20

[webfact]

UPDATE:

Thai army invokes martial law to quell unrest
by Boonradom Chitradon

BANGKOK, May 20, 2014 (AFP) - Thailand's army declared martial law Tuesday after months of deadly anti-government protests, deploying armed troops in central Bangkok and censoring the media but insisting the move was "not a coup".

Gun-wielding soldiers and military vehicles were seen in the heart of the capital's retail and hotel district. Troops were also positioned at TV stations where broadcasts were suspended under sweeping censorship orders, although regular Thais appeared largely unfazed.

The dismissal of prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra earlier this month in a controversial court ruling has fuelled tensions in the kingdom, which has endured years of political turmoil.

"Red Shirt" supporters of Yingluck and her brother Thaksin Shinawatra, who was deposed as premier in a 2006 coup, have warned of the threat of civil war if power is handed to an unelected leader, as the opposition demands.

The backdrop is a nearly decade-long struggle pitting a royalist establishment -- backed by parts of the military, judiciary and Bangkok-based elite -- against Thaksin's billionaire family, which has traditionally enjoyed strong support among poor and rural voters in the north.

Thaksin, who lives abroad to avoid a jail term for corruption, said on Twitter that the imposition of martial law was "expected" but must not "destroy" democracy.

Thailand has been without a fully functioning government since December, disrupting government spending, spooking investors and deterring foreign tourists.

The United States, a key ally of Thailand, said the use of martial law must be "temporary" and urged all parties "to respect democratic principles".

Southeast Asia's second-biggest economy is hurtling towards recession and Japan, whose companies have some of the biggest foreign investment in Thailand, also expressed "grave concerns" at the unfolding crisis.

As troops took to the streets around Bangkok, the leader of the Red Shirt movement said soldiers had encircled their protest on the western outskirts of the capital.

"We have been surrounded by troops on all sides," Jatuporn Prompan told AFP.

- 'No need to panic' -

An announcement on military-run television said martial law had been invoked "to restore peace and order for people from all sides" after nearly seven months of protests that have left 28 people dead and hundreds wounded.

"This is not a coup," it said. "The public do not need to panic but can still live their lives as normal."

Despite the assurances, concerns a military takeover was under way were fuelled by the troop presence and an order from army chief General Prayut Chan-O-Cha that media would be censored in the interests of "national security".

Broadcasts were suspended at several television stations including pro- and anti-government channels.

"I think what we are looking at is a prelude to a coup. That is for sure. It is all part of a plot to create a situation of ungovernability to legitimise this move by the army," said Pavin Chachavalpongpun from the Centre for Southeast Asian Studies at Japan's Kyoto University.

The country's embattled government was not consulted in advance about the imposition of martial law, said Paradorn Pattanatabut, chief security adviser to new prime minister Niwattumrong Boonsongpaisan.

"The caretaker government still exists with Niwattumrong as caretaker prime minister. Everything is normal except the military is responsible for all national security issues," he said.

On the streets of the capital, where a military crackdown on Red Shirts protests in 2010 under the previous government left dozens dead, life mostly went on as usual.

Thais have become accustomed to political upheaval, although there was confusion and nervousness over how the crisis will unfold.

"What a chaotic situation," said Chitra Hiranrat, 49, as she waited for a motorcycle taxi to go to work.

"I don't know what else we'll have to face in the future. Whether martial law will be helpful or not I can't say because it's only the first day. Let's wait and see," she said.

- Protest pause -

Anti-government demonstrators, who forced the annulment of elections in February and had vowed a "final battle" in coming days to topple the prime minister, said they had called off a march that had been planned for Tuesday.

"We're convinced that invoking martial law will benefit our movement and support our goal," senior protest leader Sathit Wongnongtoey said.

Under Thailand's constitution, the military has the right to declare martial law -- which gives the armed forces control of nationwide security -- if urgently needed.

But the move risks angering supporters of the government if it is seen as tantamount to a coup.

Thailand's army previously declared martial law in September 2006 following the bloodless military coup that ousted Thaksin -- the latest in a total of 18 successful or attempted coups the country has seen since 1932.

Despite the latest drama, Thai stocks slipped just 0.84 percent with some analysts suggesting the move could break the crippling deadlock which saw the economy shrink 0.6 percent in the first quarter year-on-year, the first such contraction since 2011.


-- (c) Copyright AFP 2014-05-20

[xminator]

I'll believe its not a coup when Suthep and his captains are arrested and detained for 30 days.

[MaxLee]

I'll believe its not a coup when Suthep and his captains are arrested and detained for 30 days.

You can add Jatuporn and Gotee into the mix, too...

[pkspeaker]

whether it's a coup or not will be determined soon,

IF martial law means the caretaker govt and EC meet and a new election is scheduled, AND the military and it's 'martial law-CRES' agrees to guarantee security so thugs do not prevent people from voting, then it's not a coup, it's simply providing security for a democratic government..

BUT the fact that the military didn't inform the caretaker govt when they abolished CAPO and replaced it with CRES-that is not democratic.

IF martial law means the military CRES is going to back the appointed senators plan to install an appointed dictator with full powers, then it most certainly is stage 1 of a 2 stage coup.