Five dual-track railway lines proposed for quick construction: Thailand

[Robby nz]

Guess laying dual track lines is more profitable for Thailand as country and for all Thai.

Is the SRT profitable? My guess would be no.

How will a very, very limited dual-track system benefit "all Thai"?

I wonder, as you seem to be an expert on rail if you have ever actually looked at what is carried on rail (mostly mail) ?

You only have to go to a rail freight yard anywhere in the country to see that most of the fuel used, petrol, diesel, is carted on rail to the provincial railheads, from there the fuel is distributed by road.

There are also many container train loads that go to the same places.

Whereas a truck can carry one or 2 containers depending on size, rail can carry 30, 40 or more on one train at a fraction of the cost. The same goes for fuel tanks, that's why rail is used now.

For long haul freight rail is much cheaper, safer and faster, a train with alternating drivers can run between BKK and say Udon thani in one run while trucks that only have one driver each can not.

How many truck and drivers drivers would you need to carry the same amount of fuel or containers as rail ?

Oh yes, very very limited duel track system ?

The idea is to duel track all of the system which will give railheads north, northeast, southeast, west and south.

As well as links with Malaysia, Cambodia and Lao.

As well as that there has been a contract let to build a rail line from Suwannakhet in Lao to Vietnam, when this is complete in several years time it could be linked to giving rail access to Vietnam.

[rubl]

Guess laying dual track lines is more profitable for Thailand as country and for all Thai.

Is the SRT profitable? My guess would be no.

How will a very, very limited dual-track system benefit "all Thai"?

The dual tracking master plan calls for most existing lines to be dual tracked. Work has been ongoing for five or more years now.

Thailand needs an infrastructure to be a 'hub' in ASEAN. Nowadays that calls for tracks and roads. Thailand becoming a (cough, cough) hub is profitable for all Thai. Thailand losing 500 billion Baht in less than three years rice scam is not.

[hhinhh]

The country doesn't have the money for this! I am somewhat taken aback that they would bother with "environmental impact assessment" in the first place given the right of way already exists and wondering if there is any benefit from dual track running outside of Bangkok. The cost of trackage/signalling/grade separation is substancial. Signalling to Western standards that is.

Single track with crossing loops works well if the system is bough up to date.

CropperCapture10.jpg

A single track railway does not have a decent capacity. The geographical shape of Thailand calls for a good railway system to bring more goods on the tracks and get them from the road. It also could be attractive for travellers. China is not a blueprint in everything but in means of railways they established an admirablble system beside other remarkable infrastructure components which is the basis to develop a country. If you want to see the opposite look at India where a lack of infrastructure slows down economic development.

[khunken]

I support going ahead with the dual track system which has been studied, planned and even costed for quite a few years. Yes little freight goes by rail as, apart from some rail links to the likes of Laem Chabang, it has not the capacity to handle very much freight. Dual tracking would open the gates for more freight to be taken off the roads.

The second point is that the railways are used by millions of mainly poorer people who can travel cheaply and safely (despite the odd derailment) in comparison to road. The SRT has always been a political football - by all governments - with the fares always being subsidised (even free for some journeys now) but the subsidy not always being paid to the SRT. The system is run on a shoestring (in debt) and they can't afford to do anything more than fix the ageing rails after flooding and subsidence as well as human 'interference'.

IMO this is one project that could do with dropping the EIA (legally, not Plodprasop style).

Edited June 6, 2014 by khunken

[sandyf]

Dual tracks BUT how wide will the tracks be, surely they will be the eq., of European/UK width.

I did not see any mention of it. Also just because you have some old crap loco's, doe's not mean you have to use them as they are for narrow gauge.

New tracks new rolling stock, and they do not need bullet trains---UK 125 style brill low cost.

When they laid the second track on the BKK to Rayong line, they did not lift the existing track.

There is an unmanned crossing a few hundred yards from my house. When they laid the second track on that part they fitted barriers at the same time.

The Thais think it is good fun to zig zag around them.

Edited June 6, 2014 by sandyf

[Jimbolai]

Mr Prapas said that accelerating the environmental impact assessment would not result in a negative impact and that the country would benefit from the quick construction of dual-track railways.

Looks like he knows that for sure so why waste good money on a bad study?

[city]

For those who think corruption start and ends with Thaksin...consider this. Who ever gets the contracts to build these railways will be pals with the other side and the army will get its kickback. Red oarty, yellow party and now green party are all incurably corrupt

[ginjag]

For those who think corruption start and ends with Thaksin...consider this. Who ever gets the contracts to build these railways will be pals with the other side and the army will get its kickback. Red oarty, yellow party and now green party are all incurably corrupt

And they always will be in your mind, but on past trends especially these last few years, your very near the knuckle.

Try a clean sheet without the photo copy image your giving. It did not start or end with Thaksin but in the middle he was the top of the corrupt list.

[Publicus]

Guess laying dual track lines is more profitable for Thailand as country and for all Thai.

Is the SRT profitable? My guess would be no.

How will a very, very limited dual-track system benefit "all Thai"?

I wonder, as you seem to be an expert on rail if you have ever actually looked at what is carried on rail (mostly mail) ?

You only have to go to a rail freight yard anywhere in the country to see that most of the fuel used, petrol, diesel, is carted on rail to the provincial railheads, from there the fuel is distributed by road.

There are also many container train loads that go to the same places.

Whereas a truck can carry one or 2 containers depending on size, rail can carry 30, 40 or more on one train at a fraction of the cost. The same goes for fuel tanks, that's why rail is used now.

For long haul freight rail is much cheaper, safer and faster, a train with alternating drivers can run between BKK and say Udon thani in one run while trucks that only have one driver each can not.

How many truck and drivers drivers would you need to carry the same amount of fuel or containers as rail ?

Oh yes, very very limited duel track system ?

The idea is to duel track all of the system which will give railheads north, northeast, southeast, west and south.

As well as links with Malaysia, Cambodia and Lao.

As well as that there has been a contract let to build a rail line from Suwannakhet in Lao to Vietnam, when this is complete in several years time it could be linked to giving rail access to Vietnam.

Ambitious.

Classic over reach.

The standard grandiose fantasizing.

Keep on dreamin'

[northernjohn]

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Of course Thailand has the money for this! economic fundamentals are strong, potential is enormous, infrastructure is desperately needed to fulfill that potential. Thailand needs some vision and plans to avoid simply being a nation of "hewers of wood and carriers of water". The future is bright and projects like these and others will ensure the created wealth is fairly distributed.

You do realize this is not Thaksin's government any more don't you?

Some times you amaze me with the accuracy of your statements.

You forgot to mention a nation of rice growers or do you think Thaksin has done them in?

SRT does not have a good record on running things they already have. Let them first deal with their problems and keep the trains running and on the tracks. Costs for double tracks are huge.

..."the country would benefit from the quick construction of dual-track railways." How? Modernising the equipment would be useful and soon will be necessary. The average age of the locomotives is about 40 years(!). Accidents happen quite often. The company has not shown it can run a normal service incuding safety on the tracks.

What you say has historical truth in it. How ever we are now dealing with a different set of players. To their credit the PTP at least I presume it was them and not the Democratic government before them has ordered and soon to receive 20 new locomotives and talk now of ordering another 40.

It only makes sense on some of the runs to double track them. Not all of them but some of them. Not an expert on it but defiantly the line to Chiang Mai could do with a dual track. Along with the dual tracking they could closely inspect the existing track and repair it before a derailment not after.

Also believe the China offer to share on a high speed train through Thailand should be re investigated. May have to be done in stages but would most certainly help with manufacturing in the North East. Also the plan as proposed would not go through villagers and would use bridges over or under Highways. This may be a long term project but it does have in my opinion really good points.

Besides I want to ride on one before I leave this planet behind me and my remains join the Ping River. width=20 alt=wai.gif>

Good post NJ.

Two points:

1. High Speed Trains HST and freight do not a happy marriage make. Fast efficient and SAFE freight and passenger trains do.

2. If you want to ride an HST, I recommend China or Japan as there's a good chance your ashes will have made it all the way to the Gulf of Thailand before we see HST in the Kingdom of Thailand.

Yes I had wondered about the ability of the HST to carry freight? Do they not use it in China and Japan for carrying freight. As I remember France dropped out of the process to build the HST. Said it was to costly for Thailand to use their system.

[Skywalker69]

Double tracking, equipment upgrades and proper maintenance are all necessary. High speed rail is not, you don't haul freight on high speed rail. Auntie can not board HSR to sell her goods in the next village. After last year, when there were more than 120 derailments, it seems to me that you improve what you have, or abandon it.

High speed rail is not, you don't haul freight on high speed rail

For Yingluck it was, the speed is needed to transport fresh "veggies" from CM to BKK.

[doctorproc156]

The country doesn't have the money for this! I am somewhat taken aback that they would bother with "environmental impact assessment" in the first place given the right of way already exists and wondering if there is any benefit from dual track running outside of Bangkok. The cost of trackage/signalling/grade separation is substancial. Signalling to Western standards that is.

Single track with crossing loops works well if the system is bough up to date.

CropperCapture10.jpg

There is enough money, investing in infrastructure is fool proof as it will be there for at least the next 150 years. What there isn't money for is a High speed rail network, that should be scrapped for now.

[beammeup]

Build container ports in Songkhla and Satun, buid a rail systen between them (less than 100km), ships wouldnt need to travel all the way around Singapore saving huge feul charges. Thai's would make Billions.

[BSJ]

When I was a kid I lived 100 metres from the local engine shed and the locomotives and railways as a whole interested me.....still do today. That was the days of steam and 4 wheel wagons and Walker rail motors. I've watched the changes over a number of decades. The trend is the same in any Western country.

Even here times change, and before we outlay huge sums of public money on a project shouldn't someone be out there garnering support from the people who can use the new railway? I hesitate to us the word 'Pledging' but pledges from major users who transport containers, grain, steel and fuel would be a good start. Fuel and grain are on rail to some extent now.

It's no good asking the taxpayer to foot the bill. "If you build it, he will come" a line from the movie 'Field of Dreams' may work for Hollywood but I doubt it will work with hard headed businessmen!

[lomatopo]

A dual track system, especially between major industrial areas, will make rail transport much more efficient.

Perhaps in a different country, with unlimited budget, and 50 years.

Unfortunately, the plan under discussion does not address any of your "ideas". It is not meant to address "industrial areas", nor will it necessarily make rail transport more efficient.

[doctorproc156]

Rip the narrow guage single line tracks out and replace with standard guage dual lines. Then scrap all the rolling stock and buy new.

Then, and only then, will Thailand have a viable rail system.

Absolutely no need for a high speed train. Maybe in 50 to 100 years. At least Yingy did one thing, she sorted out the menus for the high speed trains, if and when they ever start.

This cannot be done as all of south east asia uses meter gauge and keeping a meter gauge system is needed for connectivity to neighboring countries. There will be standard gauge lines built, those are the HSR lines. I think that all the meter gauge lines in Thailand should be dual tracked and electrified like they have done in Malaysia, the trains in Malaysia now run at 180 Km/h and that is more than enough speed for now. HSR can come at a later time, we can start talking about that around 2025-2030.

It is quite evident that most people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. So I recommend everyone check out this forum called Skyscraper city, there are details of all of the proposed infrastructure projects, its alignments and implementation, perhaps then we can have a more meaningful discussion.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3871

Edited June 8, 2014 by anantha92

[Stradavarius37]

I am not an engineer - but i support spending to modernize the rail system. I also support killing off the State Railway Authority - because they are inept mouthbreathers.

[whybother]

A dual track system, especially between major industrial areas, will make rail transport much more efficient.

Perhaps in a different country, with unlimited budget, and 50 years.

Unfortunately, the plan under discussion does not address any of your "ideas". It is not meant to address "industrial areas", nor will it necessarily make rail transport more efficient.

How can double tracking NOT make rail transport more efficient?

[lomatopo]

Give the contract to China and it will be done and on time and safely. I would feel safer knowing the whole thing wasn't "homemade".

You're funny.

You do realize that China's rail boss was tried, convicted and sentenced to death for among other things, corruption?

Boss Rail sentenced to death

A Beijing court has sentenced China's former minister of railways Liu Zhijun to death, with a two-year reprieve, for bribery and abuse of power, China's state media reported on Monday, ending one of the country's highest-profile corruption cases in years.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/08/liu-zhijun-sentenced-death-corruption

This article about China’s rail boom might be a cautionary tale.

LETTER FROM CHINA

BOSS RAIL

The disaster that exposed the underside of the boom.

BY EVAN OSNOS

OCTOBER 22, 2012

On the morning of July 23, 2011, passengers hurried across Beijing South Station at the final call to board bullet train D301, heading south on the world’s largest, fastest, and newest high-speed railway, the Harmony Express. It was bound for Fuzhou, fourteen hundred miles away.

Beijing South Station is shaped like a flying saucer, its silvery vaulted ceiling illuminated by skylights. It contains as much steel as the Empire State Building and can handle two hundred and forty million people a year, thirty per cent more than New York’s Penn Station, the busiest stop in America. When Beijing South opened, in 2008, it was the largest station in Asia; then Shanghai stole the crown. In all, some three hundred new stations have been built or revitalized by China’s Railway Ministry, which has nearly as many employees as the civilian workforce of the United States government.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/22/121022fa_fact_osnos?currentPage=all

[BSJ]

A dual track system, especially between major industrial areas, will make rail transport much more efficient.

Perhaps in a different country, with unlimited budget, and 50 years.

Unfortunately, the plan under discussion does not address any of your "ideas". It is not meant to address "industrial areas", nor will it necessarily make rail transport more efficient.

How can double tracking NOT make rail transport more efficient?

It can be very efficient if the double track is both tracks up and down (bi-directional double track). But the key is high tech signalling and interlocking that is fool proof. Plus the need for high standard maintenance.

But in LOS a single track with crossing loops can be made to work at a fraction of the price.

[ParadiseLost]

The train journey from Thailand to KL is an eyeopener if you want to see how modernization of the rail network can transform a country; many new road bridges, overpasses and bright new stations have dragged small towns out of the typical decayed, dreary state they were in. Thailand could definitely do with that.

Not to mention the comfort and speed improvements, cutting journey times between major centers.

Just visit Penang to see how a nation's love affair with cars can ruin a once tranquil island into a traffic nightmare. The local government wants to modernize the train network, but there are protests as this will impede cars! The standoff continues as far as I know...

Road taxes for large trucks should be raised to ensure the success of this project; the haulage operators have damaged roads, the environment and peoples lives for long enough - high taxes will force goods onto trains.

[Cuchulainn]

Words like speed up, more quickly, quick implementation, quick construction, accelerating and accelerated don't exactly inspire confidence in the HST!!

[Lakegeneve]

I hope the double track program includes the Mae Klong Line (Bangkok to Samut Sakorn). There is adequate ROW but a lot of low lying lands and waterway crossings. Current track conditions are poor and a great many watercrossings need upgrading. This line is an accident waiting to happen.

It doesn't insofar as this line (which you have incorrectly named) will be rebuilt as the SRT Dark Red suburban line later on this decade.

The first section is currently under construction from Bang Sue to Rangsit.The Dark Red line will eventually run from Thammasat Uni north of Rangsit via Bang Sue and Hualamphong and Wong Wian Yai to Mahachai. I think it will be around 70kms long.

The Mahachai line runs from BKK (Wong Wian Yai) to Samut Sakhon (Mahachai). It is a suburban SRT line.

The Mae klong line,which you termed is a completely separate line which commences from across the river at Mahachai and runs from Bang Laem to Samut Songkhram. It is famous for the moving market stalls just near Samut Songkhram station. This line opened in 1907 as a private line and was only taken over by the SRT in the early 50s. It currently only has 3 services a day.

Check the 2Bangkok site under Railroads/SRT > Mahachai and Mae Klong lines thread for more info

[Lakegeneve]

Duplicating the SRT network is NOT new, it is part of a pre existing and ongoing program

These are not new projects, the dual/double tracking program has been in existence for over 13 years!!!

After decades of under funding of the SRT and piece meal improvements, the Democracts finally decided to put some serious money into upgrading the whole network and committed significant funds to speed up duplicating the network. Instead of taking 40-50 years it could be done in 15-20 years.

The program was delayed somewhat after the 2011 as PT decided to review all transport programs including obviously the completely separate HSR proposals. Thereafter, the were further delays especially once all programs were consolidated into the 2.2 trillion baht funding bill which obviously became a political football - about 200 billion on that was for duplicating and upgrading SRT lines.

Thus actually, it is disingenuous of the SRT Governor to ask the NCPO for the EIAs to be sped up when he and the previous Transport Minister has been responsible for actually delaying the long term program.

The 106km Kaeng Khoi to Klong 19 to Chanchaengsao line is the next section to be duplicated and is currently under tender. This forms part of the priority Laem Chabang to Kaeng Khoi section. (Laem Chabang to Chachaengsao was completed in 2012)

So where are thse proposed 5 dual track lines situate?

They are as follows and are fully budgeted under previous budgets with 176 billion;

1) Map Kabao-Jira Junction (132km); 29.855 billion baht

2) Nakhon Pathom-Nong Pladuk-Hua Hin (165km) 20.038 billion baht

3) Lop Buri-Pak Nampo (118km); 24.842 billion baht

4) Nakhon Ratchasima-Khon Kaen (185km); 26.007 billion baht

5) and Prachuap Khiri Khan-Chumphon (167km). 17.292 billion baht

and listed in this thread from last year http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/654977-state-railway-of-thailand-bidding-for-dual-tracking-project-soon/ which also links to a thread from 2012. Some info from that thread;

None of this is really new news as it is part on a long term, ongoing program where the only new elements is that dates or priorities are changed every so often - usually due to blowouts in completion dates.

It is probably worth just copying a post that I made from a few months ago on another thread as it may help those that who have queries (Post #27), http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/626141-thai-railways-set-eyes-on-dual-track-system/page-2

This is a complete govt agency puff piece of old news to give the SRT Gov a few lines and some traction (pun intended). Like many of these types of regurgitated news the facts and context are not even presented correctly.

Firstly, the 2.2 trillion baht loan that the govt has budgeted is for a range of transport and logistic projects. Thankfully, for once most of it is for rail. The double tracking project is somewhat small in the whole budget being under 200 billion by my understanding;

"Of the total budget of Bt2.2 trillion, 64 per cent will fund 31 rail-related projects, 24 per cent will go to 13 road projects, 7 per cent to seven water-transport projects, and 4.75 per cent to four air-transport projects."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Thailands-location-drives-transport-investment-pla-30197376.html

Secondly, the double tracking project has been around for over last decade. It is not a new program. The Dems when they were in power allocated a significant budget to both speed up the implementation and expand the program.

I posted a map of the program on another TV thread last July 2012, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556919-bangkok-chiang-mai-high-speed-rail-ready-by-2018-transport-ministry/page-10#entry6050255

For those that can read thai the next Phases of the program are detailed in this article, http://www.bangkokbiznews.com/home/detail/business/business/20130305/493255/%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%9F%E0%B8%97.%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%94%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%B9%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%81.%E0%B8%A2.%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%B5%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%B9%E0%B9%886%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%AA%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%878%E0%B8%AB%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%B7%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%A5..html

Translated as:

(Note Phases on the above map and the below translation will not exactly match due to recent adjustments)

Phase One:
1. Chachoengsao - Klong 19 - Kaeng Khoi (106 km) at 11.348 billion Baht
2. Map Krabao - Thanon Jira (132 km) at 19.017 billion Baht
3. Nakhon Pathom - Nong Pladuk - Hua Hin (165 km) at 17.856 billion Baht
4. Lopburi - Nakhon Sawan (118 km) at 10.938 billion Baht
5. Thanon Jira - Khon Kaen (185 km) at 17.046 billion Baht
6. Prachuab Khirikhan - Chumprn (167 km) at 10.312 billion Baht
total 873 km at 86.517 billion Baht

Phase Two: from 2015-2020 - 6 routes 1025 km 78.128 billion Baht
1. Kaeng Khoi - Lum Narai - Bua Yai 220 km 18.075 billion Baht
2. Nakhon Sawan - Taphan Hin 69 km 6.259 billion Baht
3. Hua Hin - Prachuab Khirikhan - 89 km 5.499 billion baht
4. Chumporn - Surat Tahni - 166 km 17 billion Baht
5. Thanon Chira - Ubon - 309 km 23.174 billion Baht
6. Khon Kaen - Nong Khai 172 km 14.877 billion Baht

(Note: translation courtesy of Khun wisarut at 2bangkok.com)

In thailand old news is often regurgitated many times as new news. Reading the gaps in facts between the lines makes that obvious as does a simple google search.