Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Siamfan]

Still no news? I open this every week, hoping for some news... Noone who can help to speed up the process?

Thanks in advance...

Elections are done, who will be in charge now?

[JRinger]

I'm sure the answer to my question is somewhere here but unable to find it.

Does one need to have a permanent Residence for a specific period of time before applying for citizenship?

[tombkk]

I'm sure the answer to my question is somewhere here but unable to find it.

Does one need to have a permanent Residence for a specific period of time before applying for citizenship?

It used to be that you need to have PR for five years if you are married, 10 years if you are not, before you can apply for citizenship.

This has changed. If you are married, you do not apply for PR any more. I am not sure how long you have to have PR status if you are not married.

[Arkady]

I'm sure the answer to my question is somewhere here but unable to find it.

Does one need to have a permanent Residence for a specific period of time before applying for citizenship?

It used to be that you need to have PR for five years if you are married, 10 years if you are not, before you can apply for citizenship.

This has changed. If you are married, you do not apply for PR any more. I am not sure how long you have to have PR status if you are not married.

Males with Thai spouses were given exemption from the 5 year residence requirement in the 2008 Nationality Act. Females with Thai spouses have always been exempted. You need to have been married to a Thai citizen for three years or only one year, if you have a child together. A male applicant needs to have a job paying at least B40k a month (B80k if not married to a Thai) and show three calendar years' of salary tax receipts. A female applicant with a Thai husband doesn't need to be working but her husband needs to show income of at least B15k a month.

Although there is no mention of PR in the Nationality Act, the reason that PR comes or came into the equation is because the Interior Ministry traditionally interpreted PR, which used to be very easy to obtain, as the only acceptable evidence of residence. There was a requirement for 10 years' residence for nationality but was before the current Nationality Act which has required five years since 1965. In fact for those with PR and without Thai wives the ministry has been more liberal in interpreting the law in recent years. As long as you had PR they would accept time spent on a work permit as counting towards the five years' residence requirement. That meant it was possible to apply for citizenship immediately after getting PR. Now that is only academic. Since they stopped issuing PR in 2006, everyone with PR has had it for five years!

[caribbeanman]

I'm sure the answer to my question is somewhere here but unable to find it.

Does one need to have a permanent Residence for a specific period of time before applying for citizenship?

It used to be that you need to have PR for five years if you are married, 10 years if you are not, before you can apply for citizenship.

This has changed. If you are married, you do not apply for PR any more. I am not sure how long you have to have PR status if you are not married.

Males with Thai spouses were given exemption from the 5 year residence requirement in the 2008 Nationality Act. Females with Thai spouses have always been exempted. You need to have been married to a Thai citizen for three years or only one year, if you have a child together. A male applicant needs to have a job paying at least B40k a month (B80k if not married to a Thai) and show three calendar years' of salary tax receipts. A female applicant with a Thai husband doesn't need to be working but her husband needs to show income of at least B15k a month.

Although there is no mention of PR in the Nationality Act, the reason that PR comes or came into the equation is because the Interior Ministry traditionally interpreted PR, which used to be very easy to obtain, as the only acceptable evidence of residence. There was a requirement for 10 years' residence for nationality but was before the current Nationality Act which has required five years since 1965. In fact for those with PR and without Thai wives the ministry has been more liberal in interpreting the law in recent years. As long as you had PR they would accept time spent on a work permit as counting towards the five years' residence requirement. That meant it was possible to apply for citizenship immediately after getting PR. Now that is only academic. Since they stopped issuing PR in 2006, everyone with PR has had it for five years!

where did you get this information from???

Edited July 9, 2011 by caribbeanman

[caribbeanman]

299 applicants refer to the quota applicants who applied in 2005 (who have since passed prelim consideration

(the other 19 applicants were either non-quota special cases or applied in other years)

of the 299 successful prelim passers for Thai permanent residence (2005 applicants):

East Asia (Chinese/Japanese/S Korean) = 108

ASEAN (Burmese/Sing/Malay etc.) = 27

South Asia (Indian/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan etc.) = 50

Middle East (Lebanon/Syrian etc.) = 5

European (UK/German etc.) = 68

North Amer (USA/Canada) = 28

Australian = 13

COMMENTS: no country came even close to their 100 person quota

no one from South (Latin) American or African nationality passed

I do not think that people from latin americn countries are noty in this list because they did not pass it, i think that there were not any latinamerican applaying for the PR, i think that they prefer US rather than LOS:)

Edited July 9, 2011 by caribbeanman

[Arkady]

Males with Thai spouses were given exemption from the 5 year residence requirement in the 2008 Nationality Act. Females with Thai spouses have always been exempted. You need to have been married to a Thai citizen for three years or only one year, if you have a child together. A male applicant needs to have a job paying at least B40k a month (B80k if not married to a Thai) and show three calendar years' of salary tax receipts. A female applicant with a Thai husband doesn't need to be working but her husband needs to show income of at least B15k a month.

Although there is no mention of PR in the Nationality Act, the reason that PR comes or came into the equation is because the Interior Ministry traditionally interpreted PR, which used to be very easy to obtain, as the only acceptable evidence of residence. There was a requirement for 10 years' residence for nationality but was before the current Nationality Act which has required five years since 1965. In fact for those with PR and without Thai wives the ministry has been more liberal in interpreting the law in recent years. As long as you had PR they would accept time spent on a work permit as counting towards the five years' residence requirement. That meant it was possible to apply for citizenship immediately after getting PR. Now that is only academic. Since they stopped issuing PR in 2006, everyone with PR has had it for five years!

where did you get this information from???

Most came from the Nationality Act and the Interior Ministry's guidelines on applications for Thai citizenship. Some came from credible posts in the TV thread about applying for Thai citizenship from people who have applied.

[SAMCHAROEN]

It's been exactly 1 month since the previous post on this topic. Seems awfully quiet. I wonder what will be the policy of the new minister towards those who have applied for PR and waiting and new applications. I find myself hoping everyday to receive that phone call/letter telling me to come and collect the PR documents.

[howzat]

Think we can all forget about it now. Probably never going to happen. Other important issues like reconciliation will take priority.

[tombkk]

Looks like the outgoing Minister of the Interior signed a number of pending applications for citizemship before he left. Would be nice if he also signed some PR applications, but I have not seen any indication yet.

As for the new Minister, let's give him a bit of time before we jump to conclusions, shall we?

[camerata]

I haven't had to get a re-entry and endorsement since Immigration moved to their new office. Can anyone tell me how long it takes now? It used to be around 2 hours.

[tombkk]

I haven't had to get a re-entry and endorsement since Immigration moved to their new office. Can anyone tell me how long it takes now? It used to be around 2 hours.

My PR is still pending, so I reply from a non-B person point-of view:

Moving the work- and extention-of-stay -related stamps took almost all day, and getting a new re-entry after that took less than an hour. Or less than half an hour, IIRC. I was afraid that the other departments were taking so long that I wouldn't get the re-entry the same day, but luckily I was wrong.

Experience from about March this year.

[camerata]

I meant for PR-holders. I used to go to Suan Phlu around 11am, fill out the forms, go out for lunch and come back after 1pm. Sometimes they would suggest I come back the following day.

[Arkady]

I haven't had to get a re-entry and endorsement since Immigration moved to their new office. Can anyone tell me how long it takes now? It used to be around 2 hours.

I got one recently. Went there about 11.00 am and was told it would be ready after 3.00 pm which it was. Maybe they can do it quicker, if you ask them but it usually depends on the availability of the person who has to sign. There are a lot of fast food places and coffee shops downstairs, if you want to wait, rather than come back the next day and pay for petrol and motorway tolls again. Alternatively you can send a messenger to pick it up.

Tip: you can now download and complete the two forms for the endorsements in your residence book and passport online and then print them out and sign them before you go to Chaengwattana.

[camerata]

I ended up going in the afternoon and submitting the forms at 3pm so I had to go back the following day. They wouldn't accept a signature on the receipt book or any document. I had to fingerprint each one. Never had that happen before.

A free tissue is included for the 5,700 baht you pay.

I couldn't be bothered with taking buses. A taxi from Mor Chit BTS station takes around 15 minutes.

[jayboy]

I ended up going in the afternoon and submitting the forms at 3pm so I had to go back the following day. They wouldn't accept a signature on the receipt book or any document. I had to fingerprint each one. Never had that happen before.

A free tissue is included for the 5,700 baht you pay.

I couldn't be bothered with taking buses. A taxi from Mor Chit BTS station takes around 15 minutes.

Hi Camerata

I'm quite interested in PR.One question if you don't mind.You said that you hadn't obtained re-entry and endorsement since Immigration moved.Since immigration moved well over a year ago am I right in thinking that the NQ Immigrant Visa in your passport would have already expired as would the stamp in your Certificate of Residence.Thus you presumably only needed to obtain a new re-entry/endorsement because you were planning to travel abroad? If that's right is it correct that someone with PR who never left Thailand wouldn't need to go to Immigration at all? The only contact with the authorities would therefore be the stamping of the Red Book by the police every 5 years.Have I got this right or muddled it up somehow.It on the face of it seems odd that one could drop off the Immigration radar screen altogether though I suppose in most counties (not Thailand perhaps!) that's what PR means.

[camerata]

If that's right is it correct that someone with PR who never left Thailand wouldn't need to go to Immigration at all?

I think there are a couple of exceptions. When I applied for a Thai driver's licence they absolutely insisted I must have a current NQ Immigrant Visa in my passport, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, I'm not sure if you have to notify Immigration of a change of address or passport or not.

[jayboy]

If that's right is it correct that someone with PR who never left Thailand wouldn't need to go to Immigration at all?

I think there are a couple of exceptions. When I applied for a Thai driver's licence they absolutely insisted I must have a current NQ Immigrant Visa in my passport, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, I'm not sure if you have to notify Immigration of a change of address or passport or not.

Thanks

[tombkk]

If that's right is it correct that someone with PR who never left Thailand wouldn't need to go to Immigration at all?

I think there are a couple of exceptions. When I applied for a Thai driver's licence they absolutely insisted I must have a current NQ Immigrant Visa in my passport, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I believe you have to either have a non-imm or an imm visa to apply for the driver's licence. It does make sense, as they won't issue a DL to a tourist.

Also, I'm not sure if you have to notify Immigration of a change of address or passport or not.

I would assume that you have to. If not sure, you should report these changes as a matter of courtesy, I'd say.

[KamnanT]

If that's right is it correct that someone with PR who never left Thailand wouldn't need to go to Immigration at all?

I think there are a couple of exceptions. When I applied for a Thai driver's licence they absolutely insisted I must have a current NQ Immigrant Visa in my passport, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, I'm not sure if you have to notify Immigration of a change of address or passport or not.

Yes, unfortunately many government and non-government institutions don't understand the concept of Permanent Residence and in particular don't understand that Permanent Residents do not need a valid visa to remain in Thailand, they only need a Non-Quota Immigrant visa if they wish to maintain their PR status when they leave Thailand. I once had a bank teller call the manager over when she noticed my Non-Quota Immigrant Visa had expired. I then had to listen to the manager scold me about being in Thailand illegally and how she really should call the police. I smiled and attempted to explain but she clearly didn't (wouldn't?) understand. In the end I suggested that she go ahead and call the police, as perhaps they could explain it to her better than I could. Thankfully, she didn't (The Plod would have been just as ignorant) and I completed my business and left, but not without a walk of shame past the other customers in the queue.

There are relatively few permanent residents in Thailand and the number is shrinking every year as existing PR holders leave and no new residence applications are granted. It doesn't help that "Non-Quota Immigrant Visa" and "Non-Immigrant Visa" sound similar and, understandably, most Thais don't spend a lot of time studying Thailand's immigration laws and regulations.

There is no requirement for a Permanent Resident to notify Immigration of a change of address but it is a requirement to have your Alien Registration updated by reporting to the police station in your current district before you move and in your new district after. Technically, you should also be moved to the tabien baan at your new address, but as easily 50% of Thais don't live at their registered address, I'm not sure how strictly this is enforced. I take my tabien baan to Immigration every time I get my residence certificate endorsement and NQ immigrant visa, but they never look at it.

[GarryP]

^And you can be sure that the first time you do not take your tabien baan with you, they will demand to see it.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Funnily, if you consider a pile of 5-year approved applications ready to sign, the whole could be processed in just an hour or so.

(200 applicants/year x 5years x 4 seconds per signature = 4000 seconds).

I am dreaming today...

[Arkady]

I agree that understanding of the concept of PR in Thailand is limited and that is not really surprising because the way it is adminstered is archaic and confusing and there aren't that many holders. In fact they are clearly dying faster than they are being replaced! However, sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised. I applied for a credit card in a small SCB bank branch in Bangkok fully expecting to be told that I would have to renew my NQ visa which had already expired and I pointed that out to the teller, curious to know the reaction. To my surprise she told me that it didn't matter at all, since she understood that all holders of blue tabien baan have the right to stay in Thailand indefinitely, regardless of visa endorsement. Conversely an ECO at the British Embassy (in the days before VFS) once raised an objection that my NQ visa was about to expire when I submitted documents in support of my wife's visa application but she withdrew it when I explained how the system worked.

Technically you don't ever need to go to Immigration again, if you don't want to travel overseas and if you either don't drive or have an all of life driving licence. I suspect that the majority of surviving PR holders are still elderly Chinese who never go there.

[jayboy]

I agree that understanding of the concept of PR in Thailand is limited and that is not really surprising because the way it is adminstered is archaic and confusing and there aren't that many holders. In fact they are clearly dying faster than they are being replaced! However, sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised. I applied for a credit card in a small SCB bank branch in Bangkok fully expecting to be told that I would have to renew my NQ visa which had already expired and I pointed that out to the teller, curious to know the reaction. To my surprise she told me that it didn't matter at all, since she understood that all holders of blue tabien baan have the right to stay in Thailand indefinitely, regardless of visa endorsement. Conversely an ECO at the British Embassy (in the days before VFS) once raised an objection that my NQ visa was about to expire when I submitted documents in support of my wife's visa application but she withdrew it when I explained how the system worked.

Technically you don't ever need to go to Immigration again, if you don't want to travel overseas and if you either don't drive or have an all of life driving licence. I suspect that the majority of surviving PR holders are still elderly Chinese who never go there.

Interesting to hear the SCB teller knew the implications of the blue tabien baan, I suspect a relatively isolated case of knowledge.

Friends with PR tell me one place the concept is thoroughly understood is at Bangkok airport where immigration officials will deal with PR foreigners in the Thai queue without even the hint of puzzlement.Needless to say I understand most foreigners with PR will choose either the foreigner or Thai queue depending on its length.A friend with PR mentioned to me that with hindsight he would not have bothered given the time and expense involved, but on reflection thought it was worth it for the looks he received (anger, jealousy, puzzlement etc) from foreigners at the airport in the mile long immigration queue when he joined the tiny Thai queue!

[Arkady]

Friends with PR tell me one place the concept is thoroughly understood is at Bangkok airport where immigration officials will deal with PR foreigners in the Thai queue without even the hint of puzzlement.Needless to say I understand most foreigners with PR will choose either the foreigner or Thai queue depending on its length.A friend with PR mentioned to me that with hindsight he would not have bothered given the time and expense involved, but on reflection thought it was worth it for the looks he received (anger, jealousy, puzzlement etc) from foreigners at the airport in the mile long immigration queue when he joined the tiny Thai queue!

Yes, they definitely understand at the airport and treat you with proper respect. Last week an immigration officer tried to shew me away from the Thai queue, which was miniscule in comparison to the others, but when I waved my resident's book at him he immediately responded, "Oh lesident, solly". The problems arise when other farangs without PR come and join you in the queue thinking it must be OK for them too.

I would disagree with your friend's view that it is otherwise not worth the time and expense. I have found it invaluable, although I admittedly did it when it the total cost was 52,000 baht and it took a maximum of a year with much easier documentation than required today, even though it all seemed daunting at the time.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Arkady

[saakura]

Funnily, if you consider a pile of 5-year approved applications ready to sign, the whole could be processed in just an hour or so.

(200 applicants/year x 5years x 4 seconds per signature = 4000 seconds).

I am dreaming today...

It seems the process of issuing PR is not completely frozen as i had been given to understand, ever since i completed my application process a few years ago. A person known to me got his PR last week. His initial application process was done in 2007 through a broker and he had paid about 150k Baht (fee was for guiding him in completing and submitting all documentation correctly and not for getting a PR). He was contacted by the same broker now informing him that there was a small quota of 3-4 available for an additional payment of 200k which he paid and got the PR on the 1st of September 2011.

[Time Traveller]

It seems the process of issuing PR is not completely frozen as i had been given to understand, ever since i completed my application process a few years ago. A person known to me got his PR last week. His initial application process was done in 2007 through a broker and he had paid about 150k Baht (fee was for guiding him in completing and submitting all documentation correctly and not for getting a PR). He was contacted by the same broker now informing him that there was a small quota of 3-4 available for an additional payment of 200k which he paid and got the PR on the 1st of September 2011.

So total cost was 350k plus ?? I am curious to know why he would have paid that much since there seems little benefit in PR besides actually forgoing annual extension of stays. (Personally, I would like to get PR for this one reason since I have done about 12 eos in the last 20 years, but only working for the last 8 and for one reason or another have not qualified for PR).

Arkady can you please elaborate why you say PR has been invaluable?? Does PR just speed up the citizenship process for applicants with thai families but no PR?

Compared with PR for USA for example, which I recently applied via my wife (Thai/US citizen), US PR wins hands down. Total cost was $840 – but gives you the right to work without work permit, own 100% of a business, own land, social security etc. and many other benefits that Thailand PR does give.

Of course they are different countries and I’m not complaining about the country or the program or the people that apply, but just asking why people would give such a high value to PR which is basically little different from people on ext. of stay which is very easy to obtain for a very small annual fee. 350k up front, is basically 100 years of ext. of stay fees. OR put it another way 350k earning 1% bank interest would cover ext. of stay fee indefinitely at current prices.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Time Traveller

[MikeyIdea]

Funnily, if you consider a pile of 5-year approved applications ready to sign, the whole could be processed in just an hour or so.

(200 applicants/year x 5years x 4 seconds per signature = 4000 seconds).

I am dreaming today...

It seems the process of issuing PR is not completely frozen as i had been given to understand, ever since i completed my application process a few years ago. A person known to me got his PR last week. His initial application process was done in 2007 through a broker and he had paid about 150k Baht (fee was for guiding him in completing and submitting all documentation correctly and not for getting a PR). He was contacted by the same broker now informing him that there was a small quota of 3-4 available for an additional payment of 200k which he paid and got the PR on the 1st of September 2011.

That makes sense and I can easily believe it

I'd pay that too except that no one will ever ask me because I did my paper work myself...

[GabbaGabbaHey]

I am curious to know why he would have paid that much since there seems little benefit in PR besides actually forgoing annual extension of stays

Perhaps for one of my top two reasons:

1) PR can act as a residency insurance against certains aspects of life (temporarily losing your job, be unable to work, face money issues, get heavily sick...). Although it will never happen for the majority of PR holders, it enables you to remain in Thailand to tackle the issues without additional pressure to have to leave the country.

2) The psychological aspect, for which PR is an acknowledgment you are living in Thailand. As I mentionned in some past post, I've been here for more than 10 years (Thai spouse and kids, paying taxes, same address and so forth) but I still have to fill my 90-day reports every 3 months. On top of this, If I ever lose my job tomorrow, I'm supposed to take a plane for anywhere else and consider a rather complicate family visa to be back -which BTW gets void by the time you get in trouble with your spouse or if she dies before you-.

[JayB]

I applied for PR in 2007 with the assistance of our local company lawyer who handles all our visa applications, renewals etc.

They called yesterday to say that my PR would be approved within the next month (or two) and I should prepare the fee and tabien baan.

To be clear, the fee is the official fee. There's no 'additional fee' or agency / broker fee.

I hope others who have been waiting all these years are receiving similar good news. Perhaps the new administration has decided to clear the backlog.

For anyone offered a chance to get one of a small quota of PR approvals for an additional fee, I'd suggest you wait a little longer and see if the backlog is indeed being cleared.

I'm not popping any champagne corks yet until I see the approval letter but it's the first positive news I've heard since I submitted my application.

Anyone else?