The Expat Divide...

[Bluetongue]

I get around my village area a lot. I know the farangs who live within a 10k radius and chat socially occasionally a beer, but in town 20k away I often see farangs I have never seen before and assume they are mostly tourists or fly in farangs. Almost always they look the other way and refuse to make eye contact, its as if they thought they were off the beaten track (which we sort of are) and they resent that others are here. Those in that further afield zone that I have talked to are invariably living here, mostly German or Scandinavian which means friendly but no real communication in most cases. No farang has ever personally sought any local knowledge off me (except one from Thai Visa on a farming issue) but the occasional Thai has come to see me about some farang issue. So the expat divide comes down to people, I think most of us that are living alone in a Thai community would take the opportunity to have a conversation with someone in their own language. However some people aren't like that.

[herb59]

okay.

[jspill]

I get around my village area a lot. I know the farangs who live within a 10k radius and chat socially occasionally a beer, but in town 20k away I often see farangs I have never seen before and assume they are mostly tourists or fly in farangs. Almost always they look the other way and refuse to make eye contact, its as if they thought they were off the beaten track (which we sort of are) and they resent that others are here. Those in that further afield zone that I have talked to are invariably living here, mostly German or Scandinavian which means friendly but no real communication in most cases. No farang has ever personally sought any local knowledge off me (except one from Thai Visa on a farming issue) but the occasional Thai has come to see me about some farang issue. So the expat divide comes down to people, I think most of us that are living alone in a Thai community would take the opportunity to have a conversation with someone in their own language. However some people aren't like that.

Eye contact is a tricky one. How much are they supposed to make with you as they walk past?

Eye contact is associated with aggressiveness, psychosis or homosexuality, entire books have been written on this - http://books.google.co.th/books?id=hKGYAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=eye+contact+aggression+homosexuality&source=bl&ots=XcbZ7P4F64&sig=zHf8vsoPPqF7Ncr-cghyoUppkGY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aOIGVIf1L4qQuASj1oDgDQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=eye%20contact%20aggression%20homosexuality&f=false

Since reading other threads like this on TV this comes to mind every time I walk past an expat now. I try to turn off my 'serious European face' and half-smile, but not too much, and make brief eye contact then look away, but not too far away. And open up my body language ready to return a nod if one comes. Putting that much thought into it probably makes me look even weirder than normal though.

Some people get offended if they feel you're staring at them too.

[CMCMANGOMAN]

It takes a village to raise an expat.

[villagefarang]

I figure when you take the time to craft a thoughtful post and attempt to occupy the high ground however briefly, you should expect to have your resolve tested. Some consider themselves comedians but are really just bitter, mean spirited individuals. Others just want to rattle your cage and see how you react. A lot of what goes on here is a twisted form of entertainment for bullies who enjoy tormenting others with impunity.

That said I am heartened to read all of your responses and think I understand where most of you are coming from.

[GuyL]

What seems polite and/or natural in a certain culture/environment is sometimes rude or unnatural in another one. I am a French national and we are usually much more reserved with strangers at first than, for instance, your average American (from the USA) fellow. For instance, we usually don't initiate a conversation with perfect strangers if we don't have a good reason to. It's mostly because we respect others' privacy and don't want to be a disturbance for them. It probably makes us looking cold or arrogant in the eyes of people from other countries, but actually, it's often only because we have been raised this way.

Moreover, some expats here are not English native speakers and are not very comfortable with spoken English, especially when having to deal with certain accents, slang words, unknown idioms (etc.), therefore, they might avoid sometimes interactions with other foreigners here because they know that they are not able to have a decent enough conversation with them most of the time.

Edited September 3, 2014 by GuyL

[JLCrab]

Former US President George W. Bush (the younger) once said:

I want to hear everyone's opinion -- but I have already made up my mind.

[HooHaa]

except your bum crack and nads being pushed apart...

you obviously dont know how to buy a proper saddle

I do. It is just that my arse is too big.

there are saddles for all sit bone widths.

now you are just being lewd

[HooHaa]

I get around my village area a lot. I know the farangs who live within a 10k radius and chat socially occasionally a beer, but in town 20k away I often see farangs I have never seen before and assume they are mostly tourists or fly in farangs. Almost always they look the other way and refuse to make eye contact, its as if they thought they were off the beaten track (which we sort of are) and they resent that others are here. Those in that further afield zone that I have talked to are invariably living here, mostly German or Scandinavian which means friendly but no real communication in most cases. No farang has ever personally sought any local knowledge off me (except one from Thai Visa on a farming issue) but the occasional Thai has come to see me about some farang issue. So the expat divide comes down to people, I think most of us that are living alone in a Thai community would take the opportunity to have a conversation with someone in their own language. However some people aren't like that.

fly in farangs? did you walk or swim?

[Songhua]

except your bum crack and nads being pushed apart...

you obviously dont know how to buy a proper saddle

I do. It is just that my arse is too big.

No divide there then?

[rijb]

[catweazle]

Hey, Villagefarang - a very beautiful peace of writing! You reinstated my belief in Thai expat humanity and made my day!

I thank you for and value very much the time you invested in this refreshing and throughout positive article. Shocking were some of the comments here though, with the worst two being "why" and "too long, didn't read" - how low can people go? And back to base one we are: at the expat divide...

Keep up the good work and simply ignore any obnoxious comments coming from those few old and bitter TV forum imbeciles! I bet most of them couldn't even copy a sentence from a "good night story book" for toddlers without a fair amount of spelling mistakes in it...

Edited September 3, 2014 by catweazle

[tifino]

walking down any road in Pattaya, and you see a Farang approaching - first thing comes to mind - 'nudder bluddy russian - and of course never find out...

[sipi]

I avoid expats like the plague no matter where I am. I'm polite when with them, but still just avoid them. I don't go to England to see Greeks, or Thailand to see Mexicans.

[DoctorG]

I think it depends where you are.

If in Patts/BKK/CM etc there are hundreds of expats/farangs walking around. I do not bother interacting with any of them.

Out in the boonies it might be different.

Every time a farang has initiated contact, they were always after something (money).

When I was an expat in the Marshall Islands I enjoyed the expat community there and joined in events. In Thailand - never.

[tifino]

yeah, you're right there DrG.

the expats in PNG are well knitted together, as like the defence (sort of like exPats) families in Malaysia all keep together

[Bernard Flint]

That was a well thought out article. Makes a change from the usual rantings on TVF.

Whether you fret about what other farangs think or not, the point is surely that as a foreigner in a foreign country, you naturally relate to other foreigners in a way that is different from what you do when surrounded by your own kind in your own country. Just a different expression of the human herd instinct.

I agree, then the first reply is WHY

This is the expat divide in a nutshell.

[Alwyn]

Nice post. You're correct, because we're expats that doesn't mean we have anything in common except being expats although on getting to know people - just as you do in your home country - you might find you do have certain things in common. There surely are expat divides, people with similar ideologies or belief systems will generally attract and others with different views probably won't - just like at home. As for what people think of me. It's none of my business what others think of me so that doesn't impact me one way or another. It is fun meeting new folk, it makes life interesting to say the least!

[Bernard Flint]

Hey, Villagefarang - a very beautiful peace of writing! You reinstated my belief in Thai expat humanity and made my day!

I thank you for and value very much the time you invested in this refreshing and throughout positive article. Shocking were some of the comments here though, with the worst two being "why" and "too long, didn't read" - how low can people go? And back to base one we are: at the expat divide...

Keep up the good work and simply ignore any obnoxious comments coming from those few old and bitter TV forum imbeciles! I bet most of them couldn't even copy a sentence from a "good night story book" for toddlers without a fair amount of spelling mistakes in it...

EXACTLY my point, some are pathetic, just hope they realise it..

[DrTuner]

If I wanted to mingle with Farangs, I'd go to Farangland.

[Just1Voice]

In regards to the OP, I have sometimes wondered where I "fit" in the expat community, and the only answer I can honestly come up with is: I don't fit. And, even more honestly, I don't want to fit. I'm open and friendly, known to actually start conversations at times with other foreigners I meet in restaurants and such, but bottom line is I like my privacy, and don't like anyone to intrude on it. I know half a dozen other expats, but only have interaction with one who has similar interests in bikes, but even that is limited. I'd rather be on a CBR, cruising mountain roads here in the north and north east, stopping at road side restaurants and shops, laughing and talking, or at least trying to talk, to the locals I meet, than a room full of farang and their wives, no matter how well intentioned they are.

I meet men here who are Vets, and who try to get me to join the VWF. Sorry, but that simply reminds me of the Springstein song "Glory Days", with a bunch of old men sitting around talking about how important they were, or their "war time experiences". I spent 18 of my 20 years in the Marines in Recon & Force Recon. End of story. When people find out, and start asking questions about what it was like, I change the subject. That was another life, a different "me", not forgotten, but not rehashed at every opportunity I get. I don't live there anymore.

Now my life is quiet, some would even say boring. I help my wife when I can with a new business she is starting, and I fight every day to get back the strength in my legs that I lost from a pinched sciatic nerve, followed by a stroke last October that temporarily took away my left arm and both legs. I've reached the point to where I'm looking to take a 3-5 days bike trip through the north/north east on a new Forza once rainy season is over. If that goes well, I'll start looking at the new 300cc CBR or Kawasaki for more fun.

We live in a small moo ban of 100 houses about 18k from Chiang Mai city, and that's fine with me.. Two other "farang" here. One is a German who thinks his $hit don't stink, and the other is a pot head American recluse. Both are on different soi from me so I don't have to deal with them. I love my Thai neighbors and get along well with them.

I don't drink, so the bar scene is out for me, as are other forms of "nightlife", other than dinner at a good restaurant from time to time with my wife. Some would say I'm a recluse. They're entitled, if that's what they think. It doesn't bother me. I know who I am, and what I am, as does my wife, and that's all that matters.

[villagefarang]

Thank you very much for this reply.

In regards to the OP, I have sometimes wondered where I "fit" in the expat community, and the only answer I can honestly come up with is: I don't fit. And, even more honestly, I don't want to fit. I'm open and friendly, known to actually start conversations at times with other foreigners I meet in restaurants and such, but bottom line is I like my privacy, and don't like anyone to intrude on it. I know half a dozen other expats, but only have interaction with one who has similar interests in bikes, but even that is limited. I'd rather be on a CBR, cruising mountain roads here in the north and north east, stopping at road side restaurants and shops, laughing and talking, or at least trying to talk, to the locals I meet, than a room full of farang and their wives, no matter how well intentioned they are.

I meet men here who are Vets, and who try to get me to join the VWF. Sorry, but that simply reminds me of the Springstein song "Glory Days", with a bunch of old men sitting around talking about how important they were, or their "war time experiences". I spent 18 of my 20 years in the Marines in Recon & Force Recon. End of story. When people find out, and start asking questions about what it was like, I change the subject. That was another life, a different "me", not forgotten, but not rehashed at every opportunity I get. I don't live there anymore.

Now my life is quiet, some would even say boring. I help my wife when I can with a new business she is starting, and I fight every day to get back the strength in my legs that I lost from a pinched sciatic nerve, followed by a stroke last October that temporarily took away my left arm and both legs. I've reached the point to where I'm looking to take a 3-5 days bike trip through the north/north east on a new Forza once rainy season is over. If that goes well, I'll start looking at the new 300cc CBR or Kawasaki for more fun.

We live in a small moo ban of 100 houses about 18k from Chiang Mai city, and that's fine with me.. Two other "farang" here. One is a German who thinks his $hit don't stink, and the other is a pot head American recluse. Both are on different soi from me so I don't have to deal with them. I love my Thai neighbors and get along well with them.

I don't drink, so the bar scene is out for me, as are other forms of "nightlife", other than dinner at a good restaurant from time to time with my wife. Some would say I'm a recluse. They're entitled, if that's what they think. It doesn't bother me. I know who I am, and what I am, as does my wife, and that's all that matters.

[Frank James]

I figure when you take the time to craft a thoughtful post and attempt to occupy the high ground however briefly, you should expect to have your resolve tested. Some consider themselves comedians but are really just bitter, mean spirited individuals. Others just want to rattle your cage and see how you react. A lot of what goes on here is a twisted form of entertainment for bullies who enjoy tormenting others with impunity.

That said I am heartened to read all of your responses and think I understand where most of you are coming from.

VF, I thank you for the time and thoughtfulness which you put into this essay. I live a fairly reclusive life in CM, but try to stay open to the idea at least of meeting and interacting with kindred spirits. It doesn't happen often, but then I don't put myself in position for it to happen. I find as the aging process accelerates that my face has settled into what some might consider a semi-scowl. Before I go out into the street I try to remember to check that, and give the occasional nod to a stranger, with a friendly (but not TOO friendly, and only for a moment) expression, as if to say, Welcome, isn't it great we get to live where other people save to vacation?

Something like that.

[cooked]

I think it depends where you are.

If in Patts/BKK/CM etc there are hundreds of expats/farangs walking around. I do not bother interacting with any of them.

Out in the boonies it might be different.

Every time a farang has initiated contact, they were always after something (money).

When I was an expat in the Marshall Islands I enjoyed the expat community there and joined in events. In Thailand - never.

Pattaya (which many expats can't even pronounce properly) has its full quota of guys that are there for reasons that disgust me (? bore me? are foreign to me? - certainly repulse me), not because I object to beer and bonking mind you. I don't like the steely eyed, disciplined way that they have trained themselves into to demonstrate that they know that everybody else is there for the same reasons that they are, making you as contemptible as they are. Indeed the rest of mankind, including themselves, is scum. Aggravating this offence is the excuse for not learning Thai: 'they only say bad things about us, so it's better not to know'. (....)

I often have the feeling that many guys, having proudly shown off their lovely Thai bride at home, come back to live here and slowly come to the realisation that EVERYBODY knows that the 20 years younger girl is only with this pot bellied, smelly, obstinately eating Farang food guy, because of the money. Possibly, if he doesn't continue to empty his bank account, he will be returning one night to find that the locks on 'his' house have been changed and the Thai husband has moved in. That doesn't improve their sense of well being either. They often finish up trotting obediently behind their increasingly impatient Thai girl who, even if she was a bar girl eventually gets tired of the (admittedly sometimes jealous) glances that they get from other Thais that didn't see prostitution as a solution. I saw an aged guy fall over in the middle of the road a month ago in Buriram and the girl didn't lose a moment to go back and look.

Look at the way Thai forums, both larger and smaller, tend to treat 'newbies', a word that is used as an insult and a put down. I was self employed most of my life and don't feel the need to embarrass, ignore, insult or feel superior to, people that have obviously not been here for very long.

I am not a cynic by any means, but many of my meetings with expats here have been disappointing I must say, even if the contact has been initiated by me.

Eye contact? Tricky, in Glasgow on a Saturday night... 'You looking at me Jimmy?' -that is a threat. I do it any way.

[Pattaya Pat]

I bet it took you a while to type all that out.

[Pattaya Pat]

In regards to the OP, I have sometimes wondered where I "fit" in the expat community, and the only answer I can honestly come up with is: I don't fit. And, even more honestly, I don't want to fit. I'm open and friendly, known to actually start conversations at times with other foreigners I meet in restaurants and such, but bottom line is I like my privacy, and don't like anyone to intrude on it. I know half a dozen other expats, but only have interaction with one who has similar interests in bikes, but even that is limited. I'd rather be on a CBR, cruising mountain roads here in the north and north east, stopping at road side restaurants and shops, laughing and talking, or at least trying to talk, to the locals I meet, than a room full of farang and their wives, no matter how well intentioned they are.

I meet men here who are Vets, and who try to get me to join the VWF. Sorry, but that simply reminds me of the Springstein song "Glory Days", with a bunch of old men sitting around talking about how important they were, or their "war time experiences". I spent 18 of my 20 years in the Marines in Recon & Force Recon. End of story. When people find out, and start asking questions about what it was like, I change the subject. That was another life, a different "me", not forgotten, but not rehashed at every opportunity I get. I don't live there anymore.

Now my life is quiet, some would even say boring. I help my wife when I can with a new business she is starting, and I fight every day to get back the strength in my legs that I lost from a pinched sciatic nerve, followed by a stroke last October that temporarily took away my left arm and both legs. I've reached the point to where I'm looking to take a 3-5 days bike trip through the north/north east on a new Forza once rainy season is over. If that goes well, I'll start looking at the new 300cc CBR or Kawasaki for more fun.

We live in a small moo ban of 100 houses about 18k from Chiang Mai city, and that's fine with me.. Two other "farang" here. One is a German who thinks his $hit don't stink, and the other is a pot head American recluse. Both are on different soi from me so I don't have to deal with them. I love my Thai neighbors and get along well with them.

I don't drink, so the bar scene is out for me, as are other forms of "nightlife", other than dinner at a good restaurant from time to time with my wife. Some would say I'm a recluse. They're entitled, if that's what they think. It doesn't bother me. I know who I am, and what I am, as does my wife, and that's all that matters.

Good post. The way I see it is if you aint a drinker then having friends here is pretty much a waste of time. Many will disagree of course..

[villagefarang]

I bet it took you a while to type all that out.

To be honest, I wrote this about two years ago as a blog post but it still feels relevant to me. My muse seems to be on holiday, so these days I post more pictures on Google+ or Facebook.

[gemguy]

I am thinking that the OP is thinking too much about what other expats are thinking too much about.

I try not to think about it too much.

[Cuppa]

As a newbie here I suspect what I am about to say may result in criticism being sent my way. That’s OK, I can take it, but I’ll say what I think anyway. No-one should consider that I am pointing a finger at them personally, I couldn’t do that even if I wanted to because I don’t know you.

I thought that the OP was a considered & well written post which deserves response with rather more thought than a number of folk have deigned to give it. During the short time I have been a member of this forum I have read many threads & there does seem to be a common pattern of ‘shots’ being taken. Whether these are generally from the same folk I don’t know, I am not yet familiar with members names. If there is forum history I am unaware of I don’t need to be told it, to do so would doubtless perpetuate the unhelpful.

My professional background has given me an interest not just in people, but in the interactions between people, hence my interest in the OP & the responses to it. Feel free to tell me if you think I’m wrong, but the responses I see are about discomfort, quickly morphing into distractive humour. Certainly there has been little discussion of the OP’s content, which were I Villagefarang, I think I might be feeling a little disappointed that the effort I had made were treated thus.

Although I am unable to pass meaningful comment on the OP’s content I would nevertheless like to encourage the sharing of such thought.

EDIT. Pleased to see some of the posts made whilst I was typing this

Edited September 3, 2014 by Cuppa

[Dr Robert]

Maybe an accompanying question would be to ask why you use pretentious and convoluted language to ask such a simple question? Or is it just a way to show just what a superior bon vivant wordsmithing farang you really are?