Koh Tao - DNA tests do not match with those of suspects in British tourists' murder

[metisdead]

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[7Heaven]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

do you have a link to her original facebook page? or is it just something you heard someone say?

[12DrinkMore]

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

"I smell huge amounts of bullshit."

After reading through many of the posts written by the Bar Stool Crime Scene Investigators (BS-CSI) here at TV, that's a common reaction. Some people also feel light-headed & dizzy.

The whole concept of being tried by a jury of one's peers takes on a sinister hue when you consider that back in their home countries some of these same Bozos might have been called on to determine guilt or innocence of others.

It is OK.

All members of TV are automatically disqualified from jury service.

But it is a little scary, the demonstrable lack of ability to separate evidence from BS, the lack of ability to follow a case development, the total prejudice against race and officials, the imagination to invent wild insubstantial theories, the high level of armchair CSI management, and the "I could have solved this and three other cases before breakfast" experts.

I would not like to be before this jury.

Without a single piece of evidence the entire male Thai population has been indicted on murder and rape charges, the entire Thai Police force has been indicted on corruption and incompetence charges, and the Immigration service indicted on corruption.

Not only that but the entire foreign population has been cleared of any guilt because they would not know how to use a hoe to hit someone on the head. Clearly an occupation reserved for highly trained Thai hoe operators.

[SirBser]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

do you have a link to her original facebook page? or is it just something you heard someone say?

I saw the post with my own eyes, I'm not posting the link to her fb on tv.

About 30 of her friends and family commented on the post very angrily because the person who wrote the post went into a lot of detail. Later the post was deleted but the comments of family and friends are still there

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited September 18, 2014 by SirBser

[johnnytuc]

Just read the jersey paper post, that lad seems to have no doubt who his attacker were! As one who has been on the wrong end of Thai justice I felt sick thinking what that poor detained Brit was going through, thank god for DNA , when will they even consider that a Thai(s) could be responsible. God help the deceaseds family at this sad horrible time.

[sweatalot]

It's time to start DNA testing locals, from that island and nearby islands. The killers could have arrived in their own boat. Thailand has to stop hiding unpleasant truths. The police has already allowed local criminal gangs to prey on innocent foreigners in Koh Pangan for a long time. If they don't act responsible now, the tourist industry will be doomed.

best comment in this threat except mine (sorry couldn't resist)

It's to the Brit politics now to strictly demand this

[ClutchClark]

I am at a loss as to why a garden hoe would be on the beach except for one of the local food places using it when they set there tables up on the beach they bury electrical cable in the sand for the lights,

I keep hearing all these Sherlocks completely stumped by the presence of a hoe on the beach.

Have none of you ever been to a beach on these islands? The hotel staff use hoes every day to dig trenches in the sand which they rake seaweed into and then use the hoe to pull sand back over the hole and bury the seaweed. The seaweed is not taken to a dump, but rather in less than a week it decomposes.

The hoes are simply stacked just beyond the limits of the sand in the foliage or against a tree. This is a daily practice by hotel staff each morning that begins before sunrise and is completed before the beaches get crowded. Trash that floats up is also collected, being primarily plastic bottles and Brown square glass bottles that Red Bull comes in.

Why is everyone taking this common practice of leaving a hoe on the beach and attempting to turn it into some incredibly rare and bizarre event?

[FireMedic]

Another thing that I think about.... If the locals knew it was a farang and 100% it wasn't a Thai, they would be singing like canaries. They would be lining up to tell their story about how they saw the whole thing. If the locals knew or thought that a local was involved, or actually knew who it was (and they were connected), then they wouldn't be saying anything in fear of their own livelihoods.

[spermwhale]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

I thought long and hard about that aspect. Several scenarios such as their flight tickets were due that night, maybe starting university nex week, money ran out, parents telling them to get home after the police interviews etc. Who knows? Maybe one police officer gave them permission to go, another decided to ask more questions.

One thing for sure. They couldn't help their friend anymore.

I think you're correct. If I had been on vacation and some friends of mine had been killed in what we thought was a peaceful place, I'd cut my vacation short and return home. I would not have the stomach to "enjoy" the rest of my vacation and I'd probably be too terrified.

[halloween]

For all you "tide speculators" please remember there is such a thing as a tide-line, below which all footprints would have been erased. The position of the body in relation to the tide-line would be obvious to investigators, and even if the tide had caused his drowning, hammering somebody insensible and leaving them at the waters edge to drown on an incoming tide would as near to murder as possible.

[Bleacher Bum East]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Sometimes the simple explanations are the best.

However, if this is true, then all those bartenders should go and report this to the police. They have important evidence in a double murder case and a moral responsibility.

Running away like a bunch of cowardly kids because of no work permit is NOT AN OPTION.

In the worst case they would be deported back to their home country. Big deal. Two people are not going to make it back alive.

The police are looking for a double murderer.

The way I look at it is if somebody who has information goes back and tell the police they could be next to die. Think about it what if some of the Koh Tao police are covering for the killer and than the police see this person come with very valuable information and than want to knock them off the earth so they can never repeat what they know....

Why do you think the police never looked with locals and focused all on Burmese. A real cop not a corrupt cop would focus on everyone.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I continue to agree with SirBser that this is the most likely scenario.

If a farang causes a young Thai man to lose face, especially in public, then there is a good chance that there will be some form of severe retribution. Who was right and who was wrong in the argument/altercation has absolutely no meaning. And the stakes will be significantly raised if a woman, drugs and the guy's home turf were involved. It sounds like all of the above could have happened here.

The revenge will never come in the form of a man-to-man fight. It will always come in the form of an ambush or a gang attack. This is how face is regained--by demolishing the opponent in any way possible. "Honor" as we understand it has no meaning here.

In this case, if a Thai man is made to feel publicly inferior to a farang--i.e. "you could never stand a chance with this lady, and she's with me, so piss off"--the probably drug and whisky fueled motive to get revenge by destroying the farang man and taking the lady for himself would fit right in line with what happened. As would then killing the lady who snubbed him as well. The extreme violence that occurred reflects this scenario of rage stemming from humiliation.

If you're looking for even a shred of Western logic, you won't find any. Saving face is everything. And it is done their way not ours. Sometimes this may be a beating, sometimes a house burned down, sometimes a dog gets poisoned, and sometimes there is a horrendous murder.

This is reality---if you get in an argument or fight with an angry Thai man, you will ALWAYS lose eventually. WARNING TO ALL WHO LIVE OR HOLIDAY HERE: WALK AWAY FROM THE ARGUMENT, EVEN IF YOU YOURSELF LOSE FACE!

I am not guessing ... this comes from well over a decade of experience in Thailand. I love being here for many reasons, including my many Thai friends. But to enjoy life here and be safe you need to have your eyes wide open.

Other possible scenarios remain: Jealous farang; angry locals who didn't like seeing sex on the beach; migrant worker who wanted to rob and/or rape, etc. But a slighted Thai who is now being protected is in my opinion the most likely.

Remember, this extreme face saving culture permeates society from top to bottom. If a local Thai person is convicted of this murder, then the local people on Kho Tao to the entire country of Thailand will lose face. And face trumps literally everything here. Draw your own conclusions about what is going on right now from that.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[bunuel]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with

no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Sometimes the simple explanations are the best.

However, if this is true, then all those bartenders should go and report this to the police. They have important evidence in a double murder case and a moral responsibility.

Running away like a bunch of cowardly kids because of no work permit is NOT AN OPTION.

In the worst case they would be deported back to their home country. Big deal. Two people are not going to make it back alive.

The police are looking for a double murderer.

Easy for you to say - but you don't know whom they might have seen. If it was a pooyai family member, they might have good reason to be afraid -either for their lives or for being set up as fall guys.

Either way. this scenario is the most plausible, and therefore the most likely - though anything is possible, of

course...

[jimbeam1]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

Thankyou halloween, I was just checking before making the same post myself.

jb1

[Briggsy]

This case is running exactly along the lines of the Kirsty Jones Chiang Mai murder. Corrupt police deliberately protecting the killer(s), sabotaging their own (non-)investigation and arresting "red herring" suspects to parade in front of the media. Two years down the road, it'll be the same, no credible convictions and questions in the British House of Commons leading to some fairly meek prodding by the Foreign Office resulting in nothing. Very sad.

What is required is law enforcement agencies not linked in to Koh Tao's black economy to handle the investigation. Currently only the Army could do that. I doubt this will happen.

[Joe Black]

Lots of armchair detectives out there..

My observation are in the west they wouldn't release half this information to the public. Investigations take time as does collecting evidence.

Sadly for all involved its all out in the open for all to see and comment on.

[Fat Haggis]

could of been one killer easily.

the british couple go for a walk on the beach, they go behind the rocks to make out, and enjoy the quiet moment, the killer comes with the Hoe in his hand, and cracks the British man over the head knocking him out and to the ground. and then before the female can even scream is struck by the killer, WHACK, WHACK both tourists are down and no sound has been made..

while the girl is unconscious, the man drags the man into the ocean and drowns him, he then goes to the woman who is not dead yet, but unconscious and rapes her.. and then he kills her.. and he leaves..

leaves seamen, a bloodied hoe, and some dna behind? meaning probably not meditated by a someone who thought this through, but maybe some someone who was just lurking around, saw the couple and wanted a rape! and must have a fetist for murder.. which really wouldnt surprise me in thailand, criminals from all over the world has relocated to thailand and philipines to get away from their convictions in their own countries, and still have the fetish to kill..

You watch too many Holywood movies

[sweatalot]

I would suggest Koh Tao tourism is now dead or severely depleted, as long as a killer is allowed to walk free. No evidence so far of migrant worker or tourist involvement. It could well be a local or local islander. Who would want to visit there knowing a murderer is walking free and the police have been so incompetent/unwilling to catch the killer.

Thai solution:

find a (non-Thai) scapegoat

[sz1a]

This article was probably just poorly written, but:

- is the semen from the male victim or was someone raped?

- if the cigarette butt matches the semen and the semen matches the male victim, they might have just had a smoke before having sex.

[7Heaven]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

do you have a link to her original facebook page? or is it just something you heard someone say?

I saw the post with my own eyes, I'm not posting the link to her fb on tv.

About 30 of her friends and family commented on the post very angrily because the person who wrote the post went into a lot of detail. Later the post was deleted but the comments of family and friends are still there

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I can understand that but have search for here fb page and can only finde one create yesterday.

so send the link in a pm please

[sweatalot]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

If true this has to made popular and well known all over the world and thailand

link to Hanna's facebook?

[Briggsy]

This article was probably just poorly written, but:

- is the semen from the male victim or was someone raped?

- if the cigarette butt matches the semen and the semen matches the male victim, they might have just had a smoke before having sex.

These are perfectly reasonable and basic questions.

Unfortunately the police here determine their preferred outcome and then fit the evidence to support it. So, very regrettably, I don't think you will have any clearer information regarding the DNA evidence coming from the Thai police.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Briggsy

[FredNL]

I just canceled our trip to Koh Tao.

[Jeremy50]

They still haven't said if the blood on the hoe matched that of the victims. I would think they should be coming out with that first. They are trying to hard to blame someone and make arrests for the sake of it. It's also interesting that BBC are still stating the pair were captured on cctv when it was retracted earlier on, and also they mention that a motive may be that they were having sex on the beach which is taboo in Thai culture!

What rubbish. At 4am they would have reasonably expected to have complete privacy. Their actions wouldn't have upset anyone. They were clearly stalked by predatory males, and then raped and killed.

I don't know where all this 'upsetting' the locals comes from. I have seen Thai couples having sex in a local park at night while I was out running. Also walked in on students at it in a classroom once.

Jeremy , Your experience of couples having sex was surely on the mainland and perhaps in a city . Island people are something completely different , with primordial instincts that have had little or no influence from more sophiticated mainland people .

Really? A primordial mind-set? I don't think I will be going there for my hols. But you are right, it was in a large town.

[animatic]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

Certainty.

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

Thankyou halloween, I was just checking before making the same post myself.

jb1

Age yes, race groups no. Larger general race groups can be ruled out.

Not Thai vs Burmese, but those two vs English with reasonable certainty.

http://www.genebase.com/support/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=230

[jimbeam1]

DNA tests would show the ethnicity. DNA tests could easily be linked to relatives of any suspect from Koh Tao.

This smells very much like locals did it and the police can't or won't investigate or arrest them.

And that is why the British Embassy (joke) should insist on Scotland Yard Investigators, both Police and Forensic teams should be called in. Although probably to late for forensics, as the area is probably sufficiently contaminated by now?

jb1

[sz1a]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Sometimes the simple explanations are the best.

However, if this is true, then all those bartenders should go and report this to the police. They have important evidence in a double murder case and a moral responsibility.

Running away like a bunch of cowardly kids because of no work permit is NOT AN OPTION.

In the worst case they would be deported back to their home country. Big deal. Two people are not going to make it back alive.

The police are looking for a double murderer.

The way I look at it is if somebody who has information goes back and tell the police they could be next to die. Think about it what if some of the Koh Tao police are covering for the killer and than the police see this person come with very valuable information and than want to knock them off the earth so they can never repeat what they know....

Why do you think the police never looked with locals and focused all on Burmese. A real cop not a corrupt cop would focus on everyone.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I continue to agree with SirBser that this is the most likely scenario.

If a farang causes a young Thai man to lose face, especially in public, then there is a good chance that there will be some form of severe retribution. Who was right and who was wrong in the argument/altercation has absolutely no meaning. And the stakes will be significantly raised if a woman, drugs and the guy's home turf were involved. It sounds like all of the above could have happened here.

The revenge will never come in the form of a man-to-man fight. It will always come in the form of an ambush or a gang attack. This is how face is regained--by demolishing the opponent in any way possible. "Honor" as we understand it has no meaning here.

In this case, if a Thai man is made to feel publicly inferior to a farang--i.e. "you could never stand a chance with this lady, and she's with me, so piss off"--the probably drug and whisky fueled motive to get revenge by destroying the farang man and taking the lady for himself would fit right in line with what happened. As would then killing the lady who snubbed him as well. The extreme violence that occurred reflects this scenario of rage stemming from humiliation.

If you're looking for even a shred of Western logic, you won't find any. Saving face is everything. And it is done their way not ours. Sometimes this may be a beating, sometimes a house burned down, sometimes a dog gets poisoned, and sometimes there is a horrendous murder.

This is reality---if you get in an argument or fight with an angry Thai man, you will ALWAYS lose eventually. WARNING TO ALL WHO LIVE OR HOLIDAY HERE: WALK AWAY FROM THE ARGUMENT, EVEN IF YOU YOURSELF LOSE FACE!

I am not guessing ... this comes from well over a decade of experience in Thailand. I love being here for many reasons, including my many Thai friends. But to enjoy life here and be safe you need to have your eyes wide open.

Other possible scenarios remain: Jealous farang; angry locals who didn't like seeing sex on the beach; migrant worker who wanted to rob and/or rape, etc. But a slighted Thai who is now being protected is in my opinion the most likely.

Remember, this extreme face saving culture permeates society from top to bottom. If a local Thai person is convicted of this murder, then the local people on Kho Tao to the entire country of Thailand will lose face. And face trumps literally everything here. Draw your own conclusions about what is going on right now from that.

Very well written. For proof of the face saving culture just look at what the new PM said, it's all about losing face that tourists got murdered. I have heard so many stories of revenge ambushes to regain face that this sounds extremely likely to be true.

[ClutchClark]

I just canceled our trip to Koh Tao.

Wife and I are just booking our trip now.

Room rates have dropped nicely.

[ClutchClark]

DNA tests would show the ethnicity. DNA tests could easily be linked to relatives of any suspect from Koh Tao.

This smells very much like locals did it and the police can't or won't investigate or arrest them.

And that is why the British Embassy (joke) should insist on Scotland Yard Investigators, both Police and Forensic teams should be called in. Although probably to late for forensics, as the area is probably sufficiently contaminated by now?

jb1

Thailand is a sovereign nation.

If the crime occurred to a Thai couple vacationing in Britain would the Thai Embassy have a "right" to insist it be investigated by the Thai Police?

Ofcourse not.

[Adeeos]

There's really only 2 possible things here,,, 1, the attacker killed the man, then the lady, then raped both, (which means he raped both, post mortim) very doubtful I'd say, Or most likely, there were 4 or more, (3 attacking the man, 1-2 attacking the woman) I'm fairly certain, the man would have fought like HELL against a single, or even 2 attackers,,, (what 24 yr old man on here would allow themselves to be raped if it were only 1-2 attackers?)... This means it's a "gang" for lack of a better term, While it's possible a "gang" of Euro tourists could have done this, I find that very difficult to believe that some, "just recently met mutual tourists" doing this,, Most likely a local "gang" of thugs, and on a small island, my guess is the BIB know of ALL of the locals that would fit that description ,,, Just my opinion of course.....

Edited September 18, 2014 by Adeeos

[wow64]

Some of the keyboard detectives on here.. seriously guys.

Watch too much discovery channel and Police Drama.