Koh Tao - DNA tests do not match with those of suspects in British tourists' murder

[CockneyGit]

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Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

It could be that the two brothers were not close friends with tragic victim, perhaps they only met each other when they arrived on the Island and left for Bangkok after the murders because it was part of the brother`s planned schedule and their return flights were already booked to leave shortly afterwards?

No point in jumping to conclusions at this stage.

Let us hope that whoever are the monsters that perpetrated this heinous crime against 2 innocent young people just enjoying their holiday are caught soon, as this is heartbreaking for sure.

The two brothers and the victim have known each other since primary school. Another friend of theirs has been posting on here (Beard87).

[Beetlejuice]

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Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

It could be that the two brothers were not close friends with tragic victim, perhaps they only met each other when they arrived on the Island and left for Bangkok after the murders because it was part of the brother`s planned schedule and their return flights were already booked to leave shortly afterwards?

No point in jumping to conclusions at this stage.

Let us hope that whoever are the monsters that perpetrated this heinous crime against 2 innocent young people just enjoying their holiday are caught soon, as this is heartbreaking for sure.

The two brothers and the victim have known each other since primary school. Another friend of theirs has been posting on here (Beard87).

OK, thanks for the details, I was not aware of this.

Now it is only a matter of seeing what transpires as the investigations unfold.

[SirBser]

Okay AC Bar is the only bar on Sairee beach that is open all night, its kinda like sound club chaweng Samui. A bar where people party from 2 AM to 6 AM. This bar is very near the murder scene. Where the tourists where partying.

Okay this bar is full of burmese and thai workers and a lot of fire dancers around there..

A Hoe is used by the fire dancers every night because they use it when they deal with the fire and preparing for fire games etc.

So a person who works as a fire dancer had access to a hoe and knew exactly where one was and also the layout of the beach.

Edited September 18, 2014 by SirBser

[Katipo]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

If this is what happened, it should be very easy to catch the killer. Loads of people would know who he is, and he will be on CCTV in one if not more locations.

Couple this theory with the police who seem so eager to blame a foreigner, and you really have to wonder if they want to catch the killer if it turns out to be a local.

I do hope that any witnesses can overcome there fear or at least find a way to draw attention to who the actual killer may be.

[animatic]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

It is not true. DNA cannot tell age and race of person

Or you could try a medium level discussion...

http://www.nature.co...ull/ng1438.html

It can not differentiate tribal groups,

but large form groups like Asians versus English with no Asian history,

it is possible to rule out some races as most unlikely.

[wileycoyote]

Call Poirot !

[halloween]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

It is not true. DNA cannot tell age and race of person

Or you could try a medium level discussion...

http://www.nature.co...ull/ng1438.html

It can not differentiate tribal groups,

but large form groups like Asians versus English with no Asian history,

it is possible to rule out some races as most unlikely.

I can do that from home. Forget Inuit, Amerinds and Melanesians. Australian Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders a slight possibility though.

[SantiSuk]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

If this is what happened, it should be very easy to catch the killer. Loads of people would know who he is, and he will be on CCTV in one if not more locations.

Couple this theory with the police who seem so eager to blame a foreigner, and you really have to wonder if they want to catch the killer if it turns out to be a local.

I do hope that any witnesses can overcome there fear or at least find a way to draw attention to who the actual killer may be.

.... and if this is what happened and I was one of those loads of people who should know something then I would advise said person(s) to keep quiet until they can get back to their home country and then make a full report to the English police and media. You would potentially be unsafe reporting it locally. Maybe British Embassy in Bangkok would be OK.

Edited September 18, 2014 by SantiSuk

[SPB65]

Regarding the working farangs who possibly saw or know something then fled the island on the grounds of not having work permits and so on, this is understandable in the current situation of Thai immigration cracking down at this time. However if they have a conscience they should at least make a statement to police in the safety of their own country. If it were me, I don't think I'd have confidence in saying anything to local police under the current circumstances.

[Card]

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

They may have planned that before the death and left before they knew about the death.

[laobali]

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DNA tests would show the ethnicity. DNA tests could easily be linked to relatives of any suspect from Koh Tao.

This smells very much like locals did it and the police can't or won't investigate or arrest them.

And that is why the British Embassy (joke) should insist on Scotland Yard Investigators, both Police and Forensic teams should be called in. Although probably to late for forensics, as the area is probably sufficiently contaminated by now?

jb1

Thailand is a sovereign nation.

If the crime occurred to a Thai couple vacationing in Britain would the Thai Embassy have a "right" to insist it be investigated by the Thai Police?

Ofcourse not.

The British police do not have a reputation of being bent and corrupt!

"What never?"

"No never!"

"What never?"

"Well, hardly ever!"

Gilbert & Sullivan, HMS Pinafore

[minikev]

There's really only 2 possible things here,,, 1, the attacker killed the man, then the lady, then raped both, (which means he raped both, post mortim) very doubtful I'd say, Or most likely, there were 4 or more, (3 attacking the man, 1-2 attacking the woman) I'm fairly certain, the man would have fought like HELL against a single, or even 2 attackers,,, (what 24 yr old man on here would allow themselves to be raped if it were only 1-2 attackers?)... This means it's a "gang" for lack of a better term, While it's possible a "gang" of Euro tourists could have done this, I find that very difficult to believe that some, "just recently met mutual tourists" doing this,, Most likely a local "gang" of thugs, and on a small island, my guess is the BIB know of ALL of the locals that would fit that description ,,, Just my opinion of course.....

Mr. Miller had wounds on his knuckles, suggesting he fought the perpetrator before he was killed, said Pol.Maj.Gen. Ponchai Sutheerakun. He added that no signs of sexual assault were found on Mr. Miller's body, effectively disputing earlier media reports that Mr. Miller was raped before his death.

[joebrown]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

With all we expats know about the Thai obsession with 'face', this seems to me to be the most likely scenario in this sad and despicable double murder. Unfortunately Thailand has a bad history of unsolved 'farang' homicides/mysterious deaths, and this well publicised new case is not going to boost tourist numbers entering Thailand. After the PM's ill considered remarks about the behaviour of the deceased couple and the implication that the perpetrator could not be a Thai, it will be a big surprise to me if he ever retracts his comments in the unlikely event of a Thai citizen(s) being found guilty. FACE is what makes the Thai world go round.

[7Heaven]

Okay AC Bar is the only bar on Sairee beach that is open all night, its kinda like sound club chaweng Samui. A bar where people party from 2 AM to 6 AM. This bar is very near the murder scene. Where the tourists where partying.

Okay this bar is full of burmese and thai workers and a lot of fire dancers around there..

A Hoe is used by the fire dancers every night because they use it when they deal with the fire and preparing for fire games etc.

So a person who works as a fire dancer had access to a hoe and knew exactly where one was and also the layout of the beach.

Still no link to here fb page?

[jamiesilver]

yes a lot of money on those islands can buy the police or lose important evidence with just a shuffle & sniff.

The UK should send its own Investigators to Thailand and make a stand against corruption. or isnt that what the new Junta is all about?

[Alwyn]

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

Maybe the bullshit is on your top lip? The brothers were cleared by DNA already. They also returned to the island of their own free will, they were not arrested as it said yesterday.

[mango66]

Thai workers don't generally leave hoes laying about. At the end of the work day the hoe goes home with the worker. I am guessing the hoe was bought to the beach with intent to do harm.

Agree, workers are particularly careful with keeping all their work tools safe, it can mean the difference between working and not.

Upcountry certainly but not in Koh Tao which is a rich island. Sure no hired worker has to be bring his hoe to work. The hoes are beign provided.

One of the reports suggested that hoes are commonly used there to make bonfires on the beach.

I have seen they use this hoes when they move the sand to get tables chairs

stable when they put them on evening there for dinner;

[SunsetT]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

.............But your link states the opposite:

DNA analysis cannot:

Determine the age or race of the person who donated the sample

[stoltmamma]

I have been looking to Hannah fb page and i have not seen anyone who wrote that David had an argument the night they have been killed.

[mango66]

A hoe is likely to be kept close to the beach by someone who goes crabbing or looking for shellfish etc. Perhaps it was close by and to hand.

I also believe this horrific crime was committed by 3 or more men. The investigation needs to move swiftly whilst the people that did it are still in panic mode.

As for the people that suggest the police don't care as to who they nail for this. The police have already had scapegoats from Myanmar and England they have released them as the evidence proved negative, they are continuing their investigations and hopefully they will catch them. This crime is hugely in the public eye and I'm sure the police have been made well aware they need to find the real killers and bring them to real justice.

I sincerely hope they get them and treat them the same as they treat this young pair whatever nationality they are.

None of us on here have any real idea of what happened we can only guess. I do believe we should keep posting and make sure it is understood that such acts of terrible violence cannot be forgotten or swept under the carpet.

And I missing the guests which were there on the party to give evidence to the police,

what happened there on the party,

on the Thai graps the girl and the dispute was going on after,

have they gone with there tail between the legs like a dog ??

[jucel]

Okay AC Bar is the only bar on Sairee beach that is open all night, its kinda like sound club chaweng Samui. A bar where people party from 2 AM to 6 AM. This bar is very near the murder scene. Where the tourists where partying.

Okay this bar is full of burmese and thai workers and a lot of fire dancers around there..

A Hoe is used by the fire dancers every night because they use it when they deal with the fire and preparing for fire games etc.

So a person who works as a fire dancer had access to a hoe and knew exactly where one was and also the layout of the beach.

Still no link to here fb page?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hannah-Witheridge/1477260362533781?ref=ts&fref=ts

This is her community page that was set up after her death. Her own page has no updates whatsover

[7Heaven]

Okay AC Bar is the only bar on Sairee beach that is open all night, its kinda like sound club chaweng Samui. A bar where people party from 2 AM to 6 AM. This bar is very near the murder scene. Where the tourists where partying.

Okay this bar is full of burmese and thai workers and a lot of fire dancers around there..

A Hoe is used by the fire dancers every night because they use it when they deal with the fire and preparing for fire games etc.

So a person who works as a fire dancer had access to a hoe and knew exactly where one was and also the layout of the beach.

Still no link to here fb page?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hannah-Witheridge/1477260362533781?ref=ts&fref=ts

This is her community page that was set up after her death. Her own page has no updates whatsover

thanks

[pizzachang]

They still haven't said if the blood on the hoe matched that of the victims. I would think they should be coming out with that first. They are trying to hard to blame someone and make arrests for the sake of it. It's also interesting that BBC are still stating the pair were captured on cctv when it was retracted earlier on, and also they mention that a motive may be that they were having sex on the beach which is taboo in Thai culture!

What rubbish. At 4am they would have reasonably expected to have complete privacy. Their actions wouldn't have upset anyone. They were clearly stalked by predatory males, and then raped and killed.

I don't know where all this 'upsetting' the locals comes from. I have seen Thai couples having sex in a local park at night while I was out running. Also walked in on students at it in a classroom once.

Agree...there is no "taboo" in the Thai culture about having sex in the dark, late at night, on an isolated beach. They have more of a problem with public nudity.

[Pui]

because tourists don't usually have access to hoes at night on the beach.

I find that hard to believe

Not ho's, hoes.

Two Ronnies 1976 Hardware Shop (Fork Handles) Sketch

[chotthee]

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

Maybe the bullshit is on your top lip? The brothers were cleared by DNA already. They also returned to the island of their own free will, they were not arrested as it said yesterday.

Maybe the murderer did not rape the girl. I.e. the semen is just that of boy friend (casual sex).

Maybe the motive may not be sexual, maybe financial; like alcohol money, or betting on football?

[stoltmamma]

The crime is horrible enough to discuss if it was appropriate or not to have sex on the beach , to wear a bikini or being naked.

[mrtoad]

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

Maybe the bullshit is on your top lip? The brothers were cleared by DNA already. They also returned to the island of their own free will, they were not arrested as it said yesterday.

Maybe the murderer did not rape the girl. I.e. the semen is just that of boy friend (casual sex).

Maybe the motive may not be sexual, maybe financial; like alcohol money, or betting on football?

Are you off meds at present?

[Caspersfriend]

If your ISP allows you to access this link this is how the story is being reported in the UK http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2760012/Smearing-Britons-murdered-paradise-As-hunt-killers-descends-farce-Thai-prime-minister-insults-Western-girls.html

Maybe already covered [apologies - very busy] but if I was the father/mother or concerned sibling of either of these two I would be hounding the British police to get involved and on the next available plane.

If you approached a producer with a screenplay of this to date it would be rejected as too farcical to consider.

Whatever their virtues or [possibly under the 'influence'] actions these are two young people who were brutally violated and murdered - yet the media and many others involved are turning it into a farce.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Caspersfriend

[mango66]

What possibly started as a rape ended in a double murder perhaps. Based on this and the murder weapon (the hoe), the investigation should also focus on local Thai suspects, as they have avoided even the mention of this for tourism reasons thus far only vaguely referring to one Asian-looking suspect.

From what I've read, the rapist is a smoker,...and use of a hoe as weapon is likely not a pre-meditated murder. Although typical neurotic ciggie smokers could be prone to the most hideous of crimes,...in this case, the subject may use this crazy incident to quit smoking (and yaba), and disappear,...a mystery where what will be remember most is General Prayuth's comment about farang and their skimpy, inappropriate, provocative attire.

"Thailand's military ruler on Wednesday questioned whether tourists in bikinis are safe in the kingdom, in comments following the murder of two Britons whose battered bodies were found on a Thai island."

have you ever seen how " brave " druncan brites , late evening, in a bar, a group of 40 mentioned there ?

Maybee Gen P. had them not in mind !!

[HeijoshinCool]

I must say I am wondering about this "next day" availability and reliability of DNA results here in Thailand. Do they really have forensic labs that can do that? They are not known for having the most advanced sciences.

Can they even do that in our western countries? I understand that this is a priority case but it still seems to me that I recall that this kinda testing can take a while (in the west I'm talking about now) even with everyone wanting to move this along quickly.

Can anyone give me the facts . . .

.

Simple (but excellent) question, complex answer. Priority only puts you at the front of the line, it does not compress the actual testing time.

Except maybe in LOS.

But unlike years ago, yes, there is now the ability to "test" a sample of DNA in hours.

Can Thailand produce legitimate results in 24 hours? From a remote, and highly contaminated crime scene?

Well, there is more to producing usable results than the test itself.

The lab where testing is done must undergo thorough, and well documented, preparation, by the tech who will be running the samples.

Probative DNA must then be identified in (potentially) numerous samples, chosen based on what is likely to produce good results, then separated and extracted. Then it must be quantitated by real-time PCR, so that it can be accurately diluted for testing. This takes measurable time. At least 5 or 6 hours.

Once the amount of DNA has been determined, set-up calculations are done, and sample prep is completed, which takes at least another 5 hours.

Then "the sample" is run.

But it's not just one sample. A dozen are typical, along with control samples. So maybe 25-30 samples at 30 minutes per sample. 12-15 hours.

Then the tech interprets results, then runs a statistical analysis. 4 hours.

Then another tech (at least in the States) is required to review the first tech's conclusions. 4 more hours.

This is always followed by an administrative review. Time varies, but it ain't ten minutes.

None of the above hours include prepping the facility and the instruments. None of the above include contemporaneously recording documentation.

All of the above is based on a "routine" sample procedure.

In short, one LAPD lab tech can produce a result, usable in court, of one person's DNA in about 50 to 60 consecutive man hours, per dedicated lab equipment.

From reading the news releases, it appears the authorities not only beat the heck out of that time, but ran multiple persons to use as "known" sources--i.e., to compare with.

Sure.

A while back, I read an interview with Thailand's chief pathologist. The guy actually invites the public to come watch him, up close, perform autopsies on murder victims. He's no schlepp, but he wouldn't last a day in the Los Angeles coroner's office, or the LAPD's Scientific Investigation Division.

Oh, and I doubt there is a lab on Koh Tao. Which means that a qualified tech would have to have properly taken the samples (properly, as in hours) after the bodies were transported to Bangkok, or by traveling to remote Koh Tao. I can't see less than one day in that alone.

So what do you think about the claim of running DNA analysis on multiple persons, in just a day or so?

EDIT: spell checker misspelled!

Edited September 18, 2014 by HeijoshinCool