New evidence found in tourists’ murder case

[whatapoo]

Englishoak you accuse me of surmising......how do you know what state of intoxication they were in? They had been visiting bars all night, consuming enough alcohol no doubt for inhibitions to be relaxed. I don't know what DNA other than sperm could have been transmitted. Why do you suggest that he was worried about her? Why would he be? If he was worried about a supposed altercation why would he leave her in the bar? Reports say that they started out drinking as a group but went on to the AC bar together. And what has class and upbringing got to with anything? Most of these backpackers are educated middle class, but it doesn't stop them getting off their tits every night in Thailand.

At this point I'm not sure if you're playing the fool or if you really are one. It sounds more like you're merely taking the deaths of two young people as an opportunity to grind your axe.

1) The DNA of two "mongoloid" men, presumed to be her rapists was found in her orifices. This DNA was also matched to a cigarette butt nearby, that also had her DNA. DNA can be transferred through more than just sexual fluids, but also saliva, sweat, hair or any sort of bodily secretions.

If it is as you asserted, and the DNA was washed off, it would make more sense for her attacker's DNA to be washed off as well than for David's DNA to be wholly absent if they were engaged in an illicit midnight tryst. Even without penetration, there is still the trace of saliva, sweat and hair- that would point to any sort of relationship- if it even exists. So to me your fixation on a non-existent relationship that is supported by NO evidence apart from your own assumptions is really puzzling.

2) As of yet, any talk on the events leading up to their deaths is purely gossip and speculation. Whilst AC bar may be where the trouble started- it does not mean that David was involved in the problem from the start. If you look through CCTV footage, at no point are they seen together.

David may not even have been at AC bar together with her, although he was sighted there, and so was she- there is nothing there that points firmly to any sort of relationship between them. Merely unlucky coincidence, or unfortunate chivalry.

3) I've seen those pictures too, and I'm surprised that you've managed to decide that they're in a relationship simply from the state of her violated body and his undress. Pray tell, what in the world are you seeing that I'm missing?

[TV7]

Grind my axe, what are you talking about man? I merely put forward a very plausible theory based on the injuries, the position of the bodies and other evidence/reports. A theory that has been propagated by a number of people including the Thai police. The only fool here is the one who cannot comprehend that a 'well brought up, middle class' English chap would ever have sex on a beach.

[LanceGringo]

Where does the condom come into it then in all these theories? - did it belong to David?

Surely the attackers didn't use it, as we know that semen was discovered which has led to the DNA samples etc.

[TV7]

Where does the condom come into it then in all these theories? - did it belong to David?

Surely the attackers didn't use it, as we know that semen was discovered which has led to the DNA samples etc.

It might have been David's or it could have been from someone else who had sex on the beach. I don't think the police have linked it positively to this case.

[Fat Haggis]

Grind my axe, what are you talking about man? I merely put forward a very plausible theory based on the injuries, the position of the bodies and other evidence/reports. A theory that has been propagated by a number of people including the Thai police. The only fool here is the one who cannot comprehend that a 'well brought up, middle class' English chap would ever have sex on a beach.

or the fool that makes an assumption that they were having sex on the beach and were disturbed.

or the fool that can't read that there was no DNA present linking either victim.. ie, they were not engaged in any sexual activity

or the fool that didn't read that David had a girlfriend back in the UK

you were saying?

[LanceGringo]

Where does the condom come into it then in all these theories? - did it belong to David?

Surely the attackers didn't use it, as we know that semen was discovered which has led to the DNA samples etc.

It might have been David's or it could have been from someone else who had sex on the beach. I don't think the police have linked it positively to this case.

It does seem odd that a condom was found at the scene, however, as you say, it hasn't specifically been identified as being linked to the crime.

It is a bit odd that David was completely naked also when he was discovered.

[TV7]

Grind my axe, what are you talking about man? I merely put forward a very plausible theory based on the injuries, the position of the bodies and other evidence/reports. A theory that has been propagated by a number of people including the Thai police. The only fool here is the one who cannot comprehend that a 'well brought up, middle class' English chap would ever have sex on a beach.

or the fool that makes an assumption that they were having sex on the beach and were disturbed.

or the fool that can't read that there was no DNA present linking either victim.. ie, they were not engaged in any sexual activity

or the fool that didn't read that David had a girlfriend back in the UK

you were saying?

So no decent 'well brought up middle class' chap ever cheated on his girlfriend while on holiday? Your naivety is breathtaking.

[MJP]

Grind my axe, what are you talking about man? I merely put forward a very plausible theory based on the injuries, the position of the bodies and other evidence/reports. A theory that has been propagated by a number of people including the Thai police. The only fool here is the one who cannot comprehend that a 'well brought up, middle class' English chap would ever have sex on a beach.

or the fool that makes an assumption that they were having sex on the beach and were disturbed.

or the fool that can't read that there was no DNA present linking either victim.. ie, they were not engaged in any sexual activity

or the fool that didn't read that David had a girlfriend back in the UK

you were saying?

So no decent 'well brought up middle class' chap ever cheated on his girlfriend while on holiday? Your naivety is breathtaking.

Ease up man. Their families are likely reading these threads.

[TV7]

Where does the condom come into it then in all these theories? - did it belong to David?

Surely the attackers didn't use it, as we know that semen was discovered which has led to the DNA samples etc.

It might have been David's or it could have been from someone else who had sex on the beach. I don't think the police have linked it positively to this case.

It does seem odd that a condom was found at the scene, however, as you say, it hasn't specifically been identified as being linked to the crime.

It is a bit odd that David was completely naked also when he was discovered.

You make a very good point. If he merely chanced upon this rape scene and came to her rescue, why was he naked?

[rijit]

Some people, including myself, are wondering why on a small island that has a small population, with access by ferry or rent a boats that can be controlled the police are still floundering about.

Eliminate those under 10 years of age, eliminate those over 60 years of age, get people 11 to 59 to verify where they were at the time of the murder and whoever is in the remainder DNA test.

The pool of suspects should be in the dozens.

Remember your dealing with a nation that had a high ranking official, i believe he was a minister that suggested when Bangkok was being threatened with flooding, that a fleet of boats should be in the river, with engines started, to push the flood water back up river

[MJP]

Some people, including myself, are wondering why on a small island that has a small population, with access by ferry or rent a boats that can be controlled the police are still floundering about.

Eliminate those under 10 years of age, eliminate those over 60 years of age, get people 11 to 59 to verify where they were at the time of the murder and whoever is in the remainder DNA test.

The pool of suspects should be in the dozens.

Remember your dealing with a nation that had a high ranking official, i believe he was a minister that suggested when Bangkok was being threatened with flooding, that a fleet of boats should be in the river, with engines started, to push the flood water back up river

Deputy PM infact.

[LanceGringo]

Where does the condom come into it then in all these theories? - did it belong to David?

Surely the attackers didn't use it, as we know that semen was discovered which has led to the DNA samples etc.

It might have been David's or it could have been from someone else who had sex on the beach. I don't think the police have linked it positively to this case.

It does seem odd that a condom was found at the scene, however, as you say, it hasn't specifically been identified as being linked to the crime.

It is a bit odd that David was completely naked also when he was discovered.

You make a very good point. If he merely chanced upon this rape scene and came to her rescue, why was he naked?

This is why I wondered about the condom, I'm not saying that anything happened between David and Hannah, but it does seem odd that he (David) was found completely naked.

[Fat Haggis]

Grind my axe, what are you talking about man? I merely put forward a very plausible theory based on the injuries, the position of the bodies and other evidence/reports. A theory that has been propagated by a number of people including the Thai police. The only fool here is the one who cannot comprehend that a 'well brought up, middle class' English chap would ever have sex on a beach.

or the fool that makes an assumption that they were having sex on the beach and were disturbed.

or the fool that can't read that there was no DNA present linking either victim.. ie, they were not engaged in any sexual activity

or the fool that didn't read that David had a girlfriend back in the UK

you were saying?

So no decent 'well brought up middle class' chap ever cheated on his girlfriend while on holiday? Your naivety is breathtaking.

Nothing naieve about it, but how do you think the girlfriend feels right now, when right from the off it was suggested the victims were having a romantic liason?

How do you think she feels, that despite there being NO DNA LINK between the two victims, you still want to assume they were engaed in something illicit?

You do realise that it's highly likely according to other sources they had never met each other till that night?

Are you also making assumptions that all middle class chaps, cheat on their girlfriends too ?

What exactly has class got to do with anything? If you're going to cheat you're going to cheat, simple as that.

[scubascuba3]

I think the people who most likely know what happened are staying in Koh tao. I lived there for 3 months, the divers there will have a good idea. I'm not sure if any have given evidence?

[TV7]

Grind my axe, what are you talking about man? I merely put forward a very plausible theory based on the injuries, the position of the bodies and other evidence/reports. A theory that has been propagated by a number of people including the Thai police. The only fool here is the one who cannot comprehend that a 'well brought up, middle class' English chap would ever have sex on a beach.

or the fool that makes an assumption that they were having sex on the beach and were disturbed.

or the fool that can't read that there was no DNA present linking either victim.. ie, they were not engaged in any sexual activity

or the fool that didn't read that David had a girlfriend back in the UK

you were saying?

So no decent 'well brought up middle class' chap ever cheated on his girlfriend while on holiday? Your naivety is breathtaking.

Nothing naieve about it, but how do you think the girlfriend feels right now, when right from the off it was suggested the victims were having a romantic liason?

How do you think she feels, that despite there being NO DNA LINK between the two victims, you still want to assume they were engaed in something illicit?

You do realise that it's highly likely according to other sources they had never met each other till that night?

Are you also making assumptions that all middle class chaps, cheat on their girlfriends too ?

What exactly has class got to do with anything? If you're going to cheat you're going to cheat, simple as that.

Sorry, the middle class reference was to a previous poster who seems to think that a middle class well brought up man would never have sex on a beach. I agree class has nothing to do with it. The reports say they had known each other and been out in each other's company for several days, since Hannah arrived on the island. As for the DNA, as I have posted, whatever they were doing may not have produced any measurable DNA....and there was so much other DNA it could have been missed. And tell me this, why was he naked? Anyway you believe what you want to believe. I doubt we will ever know the truth.

[Fat Haggis]

Not really, if you wanted to stage the scene to throw off leads and make everyone think that it simply looked liked they were engaged in a sexual encounter when they were killed, and that's why they were killed, which is exactly what the cops did in the first place.

The Trauma used on the victims was severe, that's not a random thing that would occur if you "stumbled across someone making out" , Hannah's injuries were severe as was Davids.

NOBODY walks around the streets with a Hoe, in the off chance they catch someone "making out" and kills them as it's deemed offensive and innapropriate.

You would walk around the street with a hoe, if you were a sick and twisted individual, if you were deliberately looking for trouble or someone, if you had the intent to "teach them a lesson"

[TV7]

Not really, if you wanted to stage the scene to throw off leads and make everyone think that it simply looked liked they were engaged in a sexual encounter when they were killed, and that's why they were killed, which is exactly what the cops did in the first place.

The Trauma used on the victims was severe, that's not a random thing that would occur if you "stumbled across someone making out" , Hannah's injuries were severe as was Davids.

NOBODY walks around the streets with a Hoe, in the off chance they catch someone "making out" and kills them as it's deemed offensive and innapropriate.

You would walk around the street with a hoe, if you were a sick and twisted individual, if you were deliberately looking for trouble or someone, if you had the intent to "teach them a lesson"

Or if the killers had watched them go down to the beach, followed them, observed them and then picked up one of the many hoes that you can apparently find down by the beach - they are used to bury seaweed, and decide that they wanted a piece of the action. You can't seriously believe that the killers stripped David to make it look like they were engaged in sex. Why would they do that?

[Fat Haggis]

I've already told you why, to make it look like the couple were intimate, and the first thing the cops did was say it was a crime of passion as they also "assumed" that the couple had been killed whilst commiting an act of intimacy. So the naked par worked, it bought the guilty ones time.

It throws off investigators it made them look at the obvious thing to them, and almost immediately the friend and his brother were Prime suspects.

It's called covering your tracks, or arranging the crime scene to make them think of a different scenario.

[englishoak]

I was merely pointing out neither was there any evidence to link the two as an item. Period, the only thing that would is gossip. It is simple to make the scene seem something by stripping the lad and positioning. A good % of travellers dont get hammered, some do but none look the worse for wear during the evening to that extent.

People in groups in the same guesthouse often spend time together on and off simply because they become GH companions nothing more

There are plenty of reasons david may have stripped, or been stripped before or after, we do not know. They didnt have to be doing a thing sexually, maybe David stumbled onto the gang with Hannah, maybe she was under threat, maybe he was forced to strip, maybe it was done after to make it look like it does. Or maybe the clothes were taken because they had someone's blood on them ie evidence... Whoever did this HATED farang at that point, enough to use extreme force so the state of mind is of rage and they could be thinking anything, or prepared to do anything that seemed a good idea to them to make it appear like it was just two more tourists scum having sex on the beach disrespecting Thailand...I think its anything but.

Fact is there is NO evidence of any sexual relations at all so far between David and Hannah

Fact is Hannahs DNA seems to be on a cigarette butt along with anothers DNA but not Davids

Fact is indications are David had got to the GH then gone back out, possibly looking for Hannah

Fact is there is evidence to suggest David fought back, unlikely this would have been possible if caught from behind by surprise when naked and prone with a heavy object.

Fact is the day before two girls had been mugged and robbed in the same local area by a gang of Asian guys

​Fact is some gang on KT that evening are responsible, very possible the same gang as the mugging the day before.

It is just as possible David simply came upon the gang with Hannah whilst out looking and attempted to step in and help. From that point on is anyones guess but the conclusion is tragic.

And as for the final question why.... because they can.... high on yabba and they would not need any reason at all

Edited September 21, 2014 by englishoak

[TV7]

I've already told you why, to make it look like the couple were intimate, and the first thing the cops did was say it was a crime of passion as they also "assumed" that the couple had been killed whilst commiting an act of intimacy. So the naked par worked, it bought the guilty ones time.

It throws off investigators it made them look at the obvious thing to them, and almost immediately the friend and his brother were Prime suspects.

It's called covering your tracks, or arranging the crime scene to make them think of a different scenario.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense at all.

[LanceGringo]

What would be the point of stripping David to make it look as if he and Hannah had been intimate, if they were then going to leave traces of their own semen at the scene - doesn't that defeat the purpose?

[SteveFong]

I've already told you why, to make it look like the couple were intimate, and the first thing the cops did was say it was a crime of passion as they also "assumed" that the couple had been killed whilst commiting an act of intimacy. So the naked par worked, it bought the guilty ones time.

It throws off investigators it made them look at the obvious thing to them, and almost immediately the friend and his brother were Prime suspects.

It's called covering your tracks, or arranging the crime scene to make them think of a different scenario.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense at all.

it does make sense, and, it worked for a few days as no asian was a suspect yet.

it also makes sense that the man was found without hos pants as, they were being used by the killer as his were probably old and the deceased probably a much higher quality,

remember, the killers dont expect to be caught, so anything goes,

trying to attach logic to a crime of this nature, is a waste of energy

[LanceGringo]

I've already told you why, to make it look like the couple were intimate, and the first thing the cops did was say it was a crime of passion as they also "assumed" that the couple had been killed whilst commiting an act of intimacy. So the naked par worked, it bought the guilty ones time.

It throws off investigators it made them look at the obvious thing to them, and almost immediately the friend and his brother were Prime suspects.

It's called covering your tracks, or arranging the crime scene to make them think of a different scenario.

I don't agree with any of this, I think you're giving the killers far too much credit. Don't forget, these are the same people that left the murder weapon (hoe) behind, so that it was discovered with ease.

[Fat Haggis]

why doesn't it make sense?

If I wanted to commit a murder, I wouldn't make it look like a murder, I'd take lots of precautions and leave red herrings or items that make no random sense, as it delays the thought process of the Investigators.

Have you never heard of murderers arranging bodies in particular manners and fashions? so as to make the Investigation team believe it wasn't a murder?

You never heard of evidence that was planted at the scene to throw the scent in anohter direction ?

You don't read much, or seem aware of the steps killers take to cover their tracks..

Case in point Ian Huntley.. killed two little girls in his house, then went on National TV saying it was horrible they were missing, and even joined in on the search party.

Open your mind as well as your eyes fella

[englishoak]

What would be the point of stripping David to make it look as if he and Hannah had been intimate, if they were then going to leave traces of their own semen at the scene - doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Think how since the very beginning there has been insinuation of it not being a Thai and bad behaviour by the victims... Yabba melts the brain and so does alcohol plus Thai gang type lads arnt exactly known for their logical thinking or brains if they have to mug people to make a living.

Everyone from top to bottom has been pretending its not then gagging for it not to be a Thai and the BS has been quite staggering.. and they arnt even the rape gang

The amount of dumb excuses and things ive seem and read people here do in crimes its not beyond the realms they completely missed the DNA trace they would leave behind ... thats if they even know what DNA testing is.

Edited September 21, 2014 by englishoak

[TV7]

I've already told you why, to make it look like the couple were intimate, and the first thing the cops did was say it was a crime of passion as they also "assumed" that the couple had been killed whilst commiting an act of intimacy. So the naked par worked, it bought the guilty ones time.

It throws off investigators it made them look at the obvious thing to them, and almost immediately the friend and his brother were Prime suspects.

It's called covering your tracks, or arranging the crime scene to make them think of a different scenario.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense at all.

it does make sense, and, it worked for a few days as no asian was a suspect yet.

it also makes sense that the man was found without hos pants as, they were being used by the killer as his were probably old and the deceased probably a much higher quality,

remember, the killers dont expect to be caught, so anything goes,

trying to attach logic to a crime of this nature, is a waste of energy

Asians were suspected right from the off. They rounded up Burmese immigrants and tested their DNA. Why? Because they weren't Thai, that's why? The Thai police were only concerned by the impact on tourism. It has nothing to do with any murder scenario. And do you seriously believe that a killer would steal the shorts from a victim he has just hacked to death. If David was wearing the shorts as you suggest they would have been covered in blood.

[LanceGringo]

why doesn't it make sense?

If I wanted to commit a murder, I wouldn't make it look like a murder, I'd take lots of precautions and leave red herrings or items that make no random sense, as it delays the thought process of the Investigators.

Have you never heard of murderers arranging bodies in particular manners and fashions? so as to make the Investigation team believe it wasn't a murder?

You never heard of evidence that was planted at the scene to throw the scent in anohter direction ?

You don't read much, or seem aware of the steps killers take to cover their tracks..

Case in point Ian Huntley.. killed two little girls in his house, then went on National TV saying it was horrible they were missing, and even joined in on the search party.

Open your mind as well as your eyes fella

You've been watching too many movies/TV series.

I believe this was a frenzied attack, done in the pitch black of night, no doubt it was done under either the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. You make it sound like they were cool and collected, that they had a plan, right down to the very last detail.

They weren't planning a jewel heist at a Las Vegas casino, like you're implying in your posts.

[TV7]

What would be the point of stripping David to make it look as if he and Hannah had been intimate, if they were then going to leave traces of their own semen at the scene - doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Think how since the very beginning there has been insinuation of it not being a Thai and bad behaviour by the victims... Yabba melts the brain and so does alcohol plus Thai gang type lads arnt exactly known for their logical thinking or brains if they have to mug people to make a living.

Everyone from top to bottom has been pretending its not then gagging for it not to be a Thai and the BS has been quite staggering.. and they arnt even the rape gang

The amount of dumb excuses and things ive seem and read people here do in crimes its not beyond the realms they completely missed the DNA trace they would leave behind ... thats if they even know what DNA testing is.

So they were off their heads on yaba yet they had the clarity of mind to strip one of the victims and hide his shorts and construct some elaborate scenario to make it look like they had come across two people having sex. This gets better.

[LanceGringo]

What would be the point of stripping David to make it look as if he and Hannah had been intimate, if they were then going to leave traces of their own semen at the scene - doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Think how since the very beginning there has been insinuation of it not being a Thai and bad behaviour by the victims... Yabba melts the brain and so does alcohol plus Thai gang type lads arnt exactly known for their logical thinking or brains if they have to mug people to make a living.

Everyone from top to bottom has been pretending its not then gagging for it not to be a Thai and the BS has been quite staggering.. and they arnt even the rape gang

The amount of dumb excuses and things ive seem and read people here do in crimes its not beyond the realms they completely missed the DNA trace they would leave behind ... thats if they even know what DNA testing is.

I agree with you, I think the attackers are probably quite young and incredibly stupid, no doubt alcohol and drugs played a major factor in how far they took things (murder etc), but to say that in some way they had a 'plan' as such, removing David's clothes, making David and Hannah look intimate etc, all these minor details to throw the police off the scent, it doesn't seem at all likely I'm afraid.

Edited September 21, 2014 by LanceGringo

[englishoak]

why doesn't it make sense?

If I wanted to commit a murder, I wouldn't make it look like a murder, I'd take lots of precautions and leave red herrings or items that make no random sense, as it delays the thought process of the Investigators.

Have you never heard of murderers arranging bodies in particular manners and fashions? so as to make the Investigation team believe it wasn't a murder?

You never heard of evidence that was planted at the scene to throw the scent in anohter direction ?

You don't read much, or seem aware of the steps killers take to cover their tracks..

Case in point Ian Huntley.. killed two little girls in his house, then went on National TV saying it was horrible they were missing, and even joined in on the search party.

Open your mind as well as your eyes fella

You've been watching too many movies/TV series.

I believe this was a frenzied attack, done in the pitch black of night, no doubt it was done under either the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. You make it sound like they were cool and collected, that they had a plan, right down to the very last detail.

They weren't planning a jewel heist at a Las Vegas casino, like you're implying in your posts.

A confrontation was planned with Hannah certainly it wasnt by chance this happened, cigarette evidence suggests it. its also not pitch black on the Islands most of the time not from my xp actually quite bright on the beach.

If this gang have been getting away with mugging etc and believe themselves to be safe from reprisal they would be confident on home ground knowing the area and not in a panic, maybe an intended simple mugging went out of control.

Add drugs or alcohol to an ego that thinks they can do as they please and yea cold calculating planning without any care for what after would be very possible too. Thais in general arnt great at thinking about tomorrow or consequences of their actions.

Edited September 21, 2014 by englishoak