Democrats opposed to compromises on justice in push for reconciliation

[scorecard]

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Indeed, why should the country forgive those who broke the law just to make those who broke the law happy.

That the law breakers and their supporters are willing to break the law again if they don't get their way should make it even more imperative that justice is done and is seen to be done.

But Hay, isn't that what the amnesty bill was all about, forgive the law breakers to make them happy ?

Didn't work then and wont work again.

Read a little on Nelson Mandela's response to apartheid with South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Council.

Sometimes it's better not to let the future be held hostage by the past.

Let us also not forget who benefits the most from any amnesty agreement. One side would get amnesty for what amounts to a single, dubious real estate conviction whilst the other for three treasonous coups and the slaughter of nearly 100 innocent citizens.

And you deliberately didn't mention the nearly 3,000 Thais gunned down by the police with no process. All supervised and pushed by your idol. Selective memory syndrome.

[tbthailand]

Seems par for the course.

Always target the PTP reds while the yellow dems are pure as the driven snow.

Why even the self proclaimed peoples champion is now a self proclaimed monk hiding behind a robe while his mate who is supposed to be a monk is using his robes to hide behind also.

People who live in glass temples.

yes, the dripping with hypocrisy statements are amazing, aren't they? One has to wonder how these guys make statements like this without ROFL?

"The party wants to stress that while reconciliation is necessary, it cannot be achieved when the innocent are punished and offenders escape. There must be equality in justice," he said.

....

The Democrat spokesman was responding to remarks by Worachai Hema, former Pheu Thai MP, who had said that the Democrat Party had certain "special" rights and was "being better looked after".

[rickirs]

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Indeed, why should the country forgive those who broke the law just to make those who broke the law happy.

That the law breakers and their supporters are willing to break the law again if they don't get their way should make it even more imperative that justice is done and is seen to be done.

But Hay, isn't that what the amnesty bill was all about, forgive the law breakers to make them happy ?

Didn't work then and wont work again.

Does this also apply to the military coup that also broke the law and gave itself amensty for doing so? That sounds like two systems of legal equaity to me.

[bangrak]

One side would get amnesty for what amounts to a single, dubious real estate conviction

And then of course we have the "forgotten" charges against thaksin which have honestly slipped your mind.



1.1 Tax avoidance in transferring Shinawat Computer Inc. Communications involving Khun Ying Pojaman Shinawat –Bannaphot Damaphong Case number : 1149/2550 commenced 26 March 2007


1.2 The sale of land in the Rachadapisek district by the Financial Institutions Development Fund (FIDF) to KY. Pojaman Shinawat. Both Thaksin and Pojaman are defendants 


1.3 The case regarding the 2/3 number lottery project by the The Government Lottery Office. 32 political office holders and 16 officials.

2 Those cases which have been sent to the office of the auditor general but which were not decided by the Attorney General before the ASC ended its tenure: 



2.1 Projects regarding electrical cable laying at Suwannaphum airport involving former Minister of Transport Suriya Jungrungreangkit and a top official in the Ministry of Transport


2.2. Case involving baggage systems and CTX 9000 scanners at S.Airport involving 26 politicians, civil servants, officials of state enterprises, juristic persons, and entrepreneurs. Loss to the state estimated at 6, 937 million baht. 


2.3 Case involving “loan irregularities loan irregularities extended to the Krisda Mahanakorn Group” by the Krung Thai group. The case involves Thaksin, his son Panthongtae and 31 (former) board members of Krung Thai Bank. 


2.4 Five cases that allege the former prime minister Thaksin used his position to benefit his own businesses, causing loss to state assets. 


2.4.1 Case on the order to convert mobile phone operator concessions to an excise tax, leading to a loss of the Telephone organization of Thailand of 30, 667 million baht. 


2.4.2 Case regarding reducing revenue share paid to TST ทศท from prepaid mobile services from 25 to 20% leading to a state loss of 872 million baht.


2.4.3 Case relating to AIS and its reduction of payments by treating networks separately for payment purposes to TOT. Loss of 18970579711 baht during the term of the concession. This gain enabled rise in Shin Corp before its sale.


2.4.4 Various breaks given by the Board of Investment for IPSTAR satellite projects within Thailand. 


2.4.5 Case regarding Treasury officials in tax negotiations regarding the sale of Shin Corp. 



3. Those cases under consideration by the AEC but not forwarded to the OAG before 30th June. 



3.1 Case regarding Sky Train Airport link with losses to the state of 1, 200 million baht. 


3.2 Three Cases regarding Ua Athon housing project that involves builders, officials (3.2.1/3.2.2/3.2.3 ) 


3.3 A case involving the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives and its dealings with private companies worth 300 million baht. 
3.4 The case involving the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority’s purchase of fire trucks involving a loss to the state of 1, 900 million baht. 


3.5 The cause of unusual wealth in Thaksin’s purchase of Manchester City



Here are the cases that were dropped. Seems thaksin gets more legal breaks than people give him credit for. But of course the narrative needs to be the poor shinawatra's persecuted by the courts and these need to be "forgotten" like the other charges against him.

4. Those cases which have been returned after the Attorney General determined not to proceed.



4.1 The Export-Import Bank and the loan to Burma (which involved purchase of Shin Corp products). Claimed loss of state amounting to 670,436,201 baht (EXIM) 140,349,000 (Treasury). Gains to Shin Corp 593,492,815 baht. 


4.2 Case involving Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives and rubber plantations project. Loss to the state of 1, 400 million baht Case involves 44 people including Newin Chidchop, former Deputy Minister of Agriculture. Various accused are being asked to pay compensation of 1,109 million baht.



5. Those cases sent to the Tax office to recoup tax.



5.1 Pojaman Shinawat and Banaphot Damaphong transferred shares with no tax. Tax outstanding approximately 546 million baht. 


5.2 Thaksin’s children Phongthongtae and Thongtha Shinawat bought shares in Shin Corp from Ample Rich Invesment (164.6 million each) at a cost of 1 baht before they sold it to Temasak at 49.25 baht, which is subject to tax. In August 2550 requested Tax Department to seek payment of 11, 809, 294, 773 baht in tax. 


5. 3. Ample Rich tax issue, as it was active in Thailand for four years, but never paid tax.

Didn't you forget in your 4. the most scandalous decision from the former AG, who waited until 3 weeks after his retirement to let it be made public(!?!), not to prceed against the potential financer of the 2010 red insurgency, because that person was staying outside of Thailand...? May I wonder when our dear Generals are going to have that case re-opened...? Never?

Also, as part of the infamous rice scam, those hundreds of millions who had suddenly surfaced in Hong-Kong, any investigation running? Guess not...

[FangFerang]

In Translation: "The Democrat party supports separating the New Charter being written, and the punishment of all the guilty people... we don't like. Since we're at it, let's redundantly call it justice and call it a day."

[rickirs]

"Chavanond stressed that the country's key problem was ... the attempt to amend the law and constitution by the Pheu Thai administration."

Isn't this hypocrisy?

The Junta not only abolished the Senate and all electoral processes for Parliament contrary to the 2007 Constitution, but also established by fiat a unicameral government that combined the Sentate with the House with all members selected and appointed by the Junta. The NACC has found PTP officials guilty of violating the 2007 Constitution and the NLA is considering whether to impeach them. Yet, where is justice for the Junta's violation of the same Constitution? Well, it got to forgive itself and so exempt from the legal process being applied to the PTP.

If there is to be a national, lasting reconciliation, there must be egual treatment of under ONE law. Not under a dual judicial system of before and of after. Otherwise, reformers promote a "I win - you lose" attitude" that will continue to stir the political oppoistion and mock reconciliation.

[Robby nz]

Indeed, why should the country forgive those who broke the law just to make those who broke the law happy.

That the law breakers and their supporters are willing to break the law again if they don't get their way should make it even more imperative that justice is done and is seen to be done.

But Hay, isn't that what the amnesty bill was all about, forgive the law breakers to make them happy ?

Didn't work then and wont work again.

Read a little on Nelson Mandela's response to apartheid with South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Council.

Sometimes it's better not to let the future be held hostage by the past.

Let us also not forget who benefits the most from any amnesty agreement. One side would get amnesty for what amounts to a single, dubious real estate conviction whilst the other for three treasonous coups and the slaughter of nearly 100 innocent citizens.

Another post from the Thaksin PR department.

You forgot to mention the 25,000 + cases of corruption that would have been forgiven or Thaksins 15 criminal cases that still are waiting for his return, then, as you note, all the deaths, injuries and destruction from the riots he instigated and funded.

Those who burnt Govt buildings, were caught with weapons of war, the men in black, those who fired the grenades which killed the army officer and the lady in the sky train station.

The red leaders who emerged from the riots as multi millionaires and PT MP's as reward for their urging their followers to violence and arson.

Those people that are still in jail because they were ignored by the PT Govt while in office, refusing to help them.

Then there is the rice pledging, those already convicted of corruption would have been forgiven and no more investigation would have taken place, we would have never known how much rice was stolen, disappeared, gone bad, we would never have known about the fake G2G deals that have already resulted in a conviction for "A close aid of Thaksin".

Corruption within the tablet scheme, the futsal courts, the list goes on.

And you try to compare with an amnesty for Abhisit and Suthep something they did not want and objected strenuously against, something which would not have been an amnesty but would have robbed them of an opportunity to clear their names.

Sometimes it's better not to let the future be held hostage by the past.

From Mr Mandela:

"Great anger and violence can never build a nation. We are striving to proceed in a manner and towards a result, which will ensure that all our people, both black and white, emerge as victors.” (Speech to European Parliament, 1990)

“Without democracy there cannot be peace.” (South Africa, May 9, 1992)

I don't know who you are trying to compare with Mandela but it certainly wont wash.

You claimed others would benefit more than those associated with Thaksin and his proxy PT govt.

That claim was debunked, you have no answer so now you try to divert to something that has no possible bearing on the present situation in Thailand.

How you think letting Yingluck and all the others off the hook would reconcile anything is just as disillusioned as the PT claims the amnesty bill would bring about reconciliation, and you know how many came out against that.

Who do you think are going to be happy if she and all the others who have been charged and are being investigated in regards to the 700 odd billion that is unaccounted for in the rice scheme ?

Not the Dems and their millions of voters, not these people in the news today Most community leaders support impeachment cases: survey, not those who came out on the streets to protest the amnesty bill and certainly not the silent majority who realize they and their children will be paying for the folly for years to come.

But Thaksin and Yingluck and their supporters will be happy so they wont try to disrupt and those like yourself who are so out of touch with reality that they cant see that by papering over this it will only make things worse.

In your indignation that your lovely Yingluck may not be let off all her negligence you probably failed to notice that in the OP there was no separation made as to who justice should apply to.

[h90]

Pt tried to change the constitution back to its original version that had been changed by the democrat party and the leaders of a coup. That made 40% of the Senate an unelected group to be appointed.

So it was okay to change the constitution by the Democrats.

But illegal to attempt to change it by the pt.

A constitutional change in other countries (even the smallest amendment) can take between 10 and 20 years of discussion and debate.

The change would be debated through several different parties . It would be debated through several courts and even after years may not get a change.

That's why it is loved and trusted in other countries. It is a sacred document that people can trust even when other laws fail us.

No 1 government, peoples, or court should have the right to alter a constitutional document without Many years of deliberation.

Nobody will trust a document that is thrown out every few years by a few people who do not like.

People in thailand are learning not to trust their own constitution. The question is " how does the new constitution get back the trust of the people"?

When did they Democrats change the constitution?

[EnglishJohn]

I'm 100% in favour of the dirty politicians getting what they deserve. They took this country on the road to bankruptcy and civil war and they have never shown any remorse for a single thing they did. If a few examples are made, it might make them think twice about it in the future.

Start with charges of 'abuse of power' for the 310 who voted for the amnesty disgrace. Put every single one of them in prison for 5 years.

[Baerboxer]

Spot on the "Democrats"!!

So I expect to see Prayuth and Suthep in a courtroom soon!!

And Sondhi Limthongkul starting to serve his 20 year sentence!!

Or did I misunsderstand the OP??

And extradition proceeding started for any convicted criminal fugitives and those will outstanding court cases/warrants.

[Baerboxer]

One side would get amnesty for what amounts to a single, dubious real estate conviction

And then of course we have the "forgotten" charges against thaksin which have honestly slipped your mind.



1.1 Tax avoidance in transferring Shinawat Computer Inc. Communications involving Khun Ying Pojaman Shinawat –Bannaphot Damaphong Case number : 1149/2550 commenced 26 March 2007


1.2 The sale of land in the Rachadapisek district by the Financial Institutions Development Fund (FIDF) to KY. Pojaman Shinawat. Both Thaksin and Pojaman are defendants 


1.3 The case regarding the 2/3 number lottery project by the The Government Lottery Office. 32 political office holders and 16 officials.

2 Those cases which have been sent to the office of the auditor general but which were not decided by the Attorney General before the ASC ended its tenure: 



2.1 Projects regarding electrical cable laying at Suwannaphum airport involving former Minister of Transport Suriya Jungrungreangkit and a top official in the Ministry of Transport


2.2. Case involving baggage systems and CTX 9000 scanners at S.Airport involving 26 politicians, civil servants, officials of state enterprises, juristic persons, and entrepreneurs. Loss to the state estimated at 6, 937 million baht. 


2.3 Case involving “loan irregularities loan irregularities extended to the Krisda Mahanakorn Group” by the Krung Thai group. The case involves Thaksin, his son Panthongtae and 31 (former) board members of Krung Thai Bank. 


2.4 Five cases that allege the former prime minister Thaksin used his position to benefit his own businesses, causing loss to state assets. 


2.4.1 Case on the order to convert mobile phone operator concessions to an excise tax, leading to a loss of the Telephone organization of Thailand of 30, 667 million baht. 


2.4.2 Case regarding reducing revenue share paid to TST ทศท from prepaid mobile services from 25 to 20% leading to a state loss of 872 million baht.


2.4.3 Case relating to AIS and its reduction of payments by treating networks separately for payment purposes to TOT. Loss of 18970579711 baht during the term of the concession. This gain enabled rise in Shin Corp before its sale.


2.4.4 Various breaks given by the Board of Investment for IPSTAR satellite projects within Thailand. 


2.4.5 Case regarding Treasury officials in tax negotiations regarding the sale of Shin Corp. 



3. Those cases under consideration by the AEC but not forwarded to the OAG before 30th June. 



3.1 Case regarding Sky Train Airport link with losses to the state of 1, 200 million baht. 


3.2 Three Cases regarding Ua Athon housing project that involves builders, officials (3.2.1/3.2.2/3.2.3 ) 


3.3 A case involving the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives and its dealings with private companies worth 300 million baht. 
3.4 The case involving the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority’s purchase of fire trucks involving a loss to the state of 1, 900 million baht. 


3.5 The cause of unusual wealth in Thaksin’s purchase of Manchester City



Here are the cases that were dropped. Seems thaksin gets more legal breaks than people give him credit for. But of course the narrative needs to be the poor shinawatra's persecuted by the courts and these need to be "forgotten" like the other charges against him.

4. Those cases which have been returned after the Attorney General determined not to proceed.



4.1 The Export-Import Bank and the loan to Burma (which involved purchase of Shin Corp products). Claimed loss of state amounting to 670,436,201 baht (EXIM) 140,349,000 (Treasury). Gains to Shin Corp 593,492,815 baht. 


4.2 Case involving Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives and rubber plantations project. Loss to the state of 1, 400 million baht Case involves 44 people including Newin Chidchop, former Deputy Minister of Agriculture. Various accused are being asked to pay compensation of 1,109 million baht.



5. Those cases sent to the Tax office to recoup tax.



5.1 Pojaman Shinawat and Banaphot Damaphong transferred shares with no tax. Tax outstanding approximately 546 million baht. 


5.2 Thaksin’s children Phongthongtae and Thongtha Shinawat bought shares in Shin Corp from Ample Rich Invesment (164.6 million each) at a cost of 1 baht before they sold it to Temasak at 49.25 baht, which is subject to tax. In August 2550 requested Tax Department to seek payment of 11, 809, 294, 773 baht in tax. 


5. 3. Ample Rich tax issue, as it was active in Thailand for four years, but never paid tax.

Didn't you forget in your 4. the most scandalous decision from the former AG, who waited until 3 weeks after his retirement to let it be made public(!?!), not to prceed against the potential financer of the 2010 red insurgency, because that person was staying outside of Thailand...? May I wonder when our dear Generals are going to have that case re-opened...? Never?

Also, as part of the infamous rice scam, those hundreds of millions who had suddenly surfaced in Hong-Kong, any investigation running? Guess not...

No doubt Robespiere (the poster formerly known as,,,,,,,,,,,,) will be able to correct all of those points, case by case, on both your posts.

We await his response with interest.

[Robespiere]

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Indeed, why should the country forgive those who broke the law just to make those who broke the law happy.

That the law breakers and their supporters are willing to break the law again if they don't get their way should make it even more imperative that justice is done and is seen to be done.

But Hay, isn't that what the amnesty bill was all about, forgive the law breakers to make them happy ?

Didn't work then and wont work again.

Read a little on Nelson Mandela's response to apartheid with South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Council.

Sometimes it's better not to let the future be held hostage by the past.

Let us also not forget who benefits the most from any amnesty agreement. One side would get amnesty for what amounts to a single, dubious real estate conviction whilst the other for three treasonous coups and the slaughter of nearly 100 innocent citizens.

And you deliberately didn't mention the nearly 3,000 Thais gunned down by the police with no process. All supervised and pushed by your idol. Selective memory syndrome.

I assume by the 3,000 gunned down you are talking about the drug war.

It's interesting reading to see how that particular war came about, who pushed for it and who thought the price paid in lost lives was worthwhile.

Do a little research, it'll help you out with your selective ignorance syndrome.

[Mudcrab]

Indeed, why should the country forgive those who broke the law just to make those who broke the law happy.

That the law breakers and their supporters are willing to break the law again if they don't get their way should make it even more imperative that justice is done and is seen to be done.

But Hay, isn't that what the amnesty bill was all about, forgive the law breakers to make them happy ?

Didn't work then and wont work again.

Read a little on Nelson Mandela's response to apartheid with South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Council.

Sometimes it's better not to let the future be held hostage by the past.

Let us also not forget who benefits the most from any amnesty agreement. One side would get amnesty for what amounts to a single, dubious real estate conviction whilst the other for three treasonous coups and the slaughter of nearly 100 innocent citizens.

Another post from the Thaksin PR department.

You forgot to mention the 25,000 + cases of corruption that would have been forgiven or Thaksins 15 criminal cases that still are waiting for his return, then, as you note, all the deaths, injuries and destruction from the riots he instigated and funded.

Those who burnt Govt buildings, were caught with weapons of war, the men in black, those who fired the grenades which killed the army officer and the lady in the sky train station.

The red leaders who emerged from the riots as multi millionaires and PT MP's as reward for their urging their followers to violence and arson.

Those people that are still in jail because they were ignored by the PT Govt while in office, refusing to help them.

Then there is the rice pledging, those already convicted of corruption would have been forgiven and no more investigation would have taken place, we would have never known how much rice was stolen, disappeared, gone bad, we would never have known about the fake G2G deals that have already resulted in a conviction for "A close aid of Thaksin".

Corruption within the tablet scheme, the futsal courts, the list goes on.

And you try to compare with an amnesty for Abhisit and Suthep something they did not want and objected strenuously against, something which would not have been an amnesty but would have robbed them of an opportunity to clear their names.

Sometimes it's better not to let the future be held hostage by the past.

From Mr Mandela:

"Great anger and violence can never build a nation. We are striving to proceed in a manner and towards a result, which will ensure that all our people, both black and white, emerge as victors.” (Speech to European Parliament, 1990)

“Without democracy there cannot be peace.” (South Africa, May 9, 1992)

And hasn't that worked out well for South Africa?

[Baerboxer]

As of right now there is one, solitary blemish on Thaksin's criminal record and it is the most idiotic and ridiculous conviction that would not stand up in any impartial, independent and just court.

Paying 10% above market value for a piece of land in a public auction.

Your list is worthless, plagiarised ( The Law is an Ass-et. Coups, Law and Corruption Cases ) garbage.

Propaganda that only the most anal and farcical ass-clown could read, believe and then excrete as fact.

(BTW - the list is also 6 years old and the conviction count still stands at 1- this fact in itself shows the worthlessness of the allegations and accusations contained within.)

"Your list is worthless, plagiarized"

Thank you again for highlighting that the PTP dismiss charges as worthless when it does not suit their agenda. You inadvertently defended my argument. Thanks again.

How could anyone argue against such brilliance.

You are truly a rhetorical and dialectical giant, making dwarves of us all.

One query though, the 6 years with no further convictions thing - sort of screams out worthless, does it not?

Rather than adopt the usual Thaksin apologist stance of denial, rebuff, insult and changing the subject, why not address each point / case illustrated?

Surely if your master is totally innocent that will be easy for you.

[473geo]

"Democrats opposed to compromises on justice in push for reconciliation"

Of course, if the legal system appears blind to your own questionable actions, be foolhardy to allow your opponents the same luxury!

[bangrak]

I'm not Thai, so I cannot fathom all the meanders of Thainess, but, IMHO, true 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved in the way the Thaksin/Shins/PTP/UDD partisans want to have it. To me, it is as if(?) they would want to abuse the principles of reconciliation to become in the end the general amnesty they could not become while having used up every, any, even the most crooked, means they could think of at the time. To me their plea sounds as honest as when they pretend to be wanting 'free and fair' elections, NOT then...

True 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved by ignoring, forgetting, shoving-under-the-carpet, any act which anyone could consider criminal, unconstitutional, illegal, corrupt or adverse, made by any party, organisation, group, clan, family or individual(s), may they be/have been 'coloured' yellow, blue, white, red, black ...brown, green, or not, living in Thailand or staying abroad! The painfull list of all those acts must be patiently made up, with no exceptions allowed, and everyone suspected must be, very clearly, able and willing to take up its responsibility, and be brave, or just consequent, enough to accept the possibly dire consequences. And the 'general public' must be informed about it, all, long and wide, into details, no shady corner left unexposed.

It is then, and then only, that some, minor, elements can be, publicly, put on a table of negotiations, for a possible 'compensation of accounts', with all the parties' agreement, to allow a general compromise, including mutual forgiveness, with the aim to enable the Kingdom of Thailand to make its first(!) true steps towards becoming(!) a true Democracy!

Mind you, an, essential, condition, si nequa non, is to be fullfilled though, and it will come hard to all 'parties' to accept it, it is that Justice must be served, not only let to but encouraged to, about all and anything being into its consideration, and, also, all and everything that should be or become of its concern! There is no 'State' without 'Law', and there is no 'Democracy' without 'Justice', for all...

And to the ones allowing themselves to (mis-?)use South Africa as an example, Nelson Mandela included: don't attempt to bend History to fit your twisted theories, what I write hereabove is the way the Great Man wanted 'Reconciliation' to happen, and largely how it did, in his country, Justice too as a matter of fact, so, please, leave the RSA out of your plea for injustice, leave Nelson Mandela out of it, it's bad enough Thaksin dared to compare himself to him (as a Statesman even Mandela had to compromise, and let himself be caught on a picture with a 'Great Democrat' (NOT!) like Robert Mugabe, or a Thaksin Shinawatra, the Thai PM, in fact, are both last not very good friends? But that's a bit off topic...)!

[brucec64]

I'm 100% in favour of the dirty politicians getting what they deserve. They took this country on the road to bankruptcy and civil war and they have never shown any remorse for a single thing they did. If a few examples are made, it might make them think twice about it in the future.

Start with charges of 'abuse of power' for the 310 who voted for the amnesty disgrace. Put every single one of them in prison for 5 years.

Can you prove your claim of bankruptcy? Thailand had respectable year to year gdp growth from 2010 to 2013, and its debt to gdp ratio is much better than most first world countries. Even the rice subsidy only represented 7% of government spending. How does this support a claim of near bankruptcy?

[bangrak]

In Robespierre and other like-minded members' 'prosa' (it's Sunday, I'm in a good mood, so let me call it like that), I am still reading: 'coup' here, 'coup' there... May I be allowed to point out to these stakhanovist repetitive workers, that, possibly, unbiased, un-manipulated, History might decide to describe the events in a quite different way.

The most recent 'coup d'état' was perpetrated at night, about 3am, by PTP's MPs and 'affiliated' Senators (the PM was 'providentially' absent for the vote). Find out what a 'coup d'état' is, and, when you're honest, you won't be able to disagree this is really what that was. And, that makes of May 22nd a 'counter coup' then... Will you adapt to the reality of facts?

And while we are at definitions, the 2010 'reds'' 'insurgency', might also be called an attempted 'putsch' by Thaksin & Co. against the Government...

IMO, calling events by their true name puts those events into a more objective perspective, wouldn't you say, Robby?

[473geo]

I'm not Thai, so I cannot fathom all the meanders of Thainess, but, IMHO, true 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved in the way the Thaksin/Shins/PTP/UDD partisans want to have it. To me, it is as if(?) they would want to abuse the principles of reconciliation to become in the end the general amnesty they could not become while having used up every, any, even the most crooked, means they could think of at the time. To me their plea sounds as honest as when they pretend to be wanting 'free and fair' elections, NOT then...

True 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved by ignoring, forgetting, shoving-under-the-carpet, any act which anyone could consider criminal, unconstitutional, illegal, corrupt or adverse, made by any party, organisation, group, clan, family or individual(s), may they be/have been 'coloured' yellow, blue, white, red, black ...brown, green, or not, living in Thailand or staying abroad! The painfull list of all those acts must be patiently made up, with no exceptions allowed, and everyone suspected must be, very clearly, able and willing to take up its responsibility, and be brave, or just consequent, enough to accept the possibly dire consequences. And the 'general public' must be informed about it, all, long and wide, into details, no shady corner left unexposed.

It is then, and then only, that some, minor, elements can be, publicly, put on a table of negotiations, for a possible 'compensation of accounts', with all the parties' agreement, to allow a general compromise, including mutual forgiveness, with the aim to enable the Kingdom of Thailand to make its first(!) true steps towards becoming(!) a true Democracy!

Mind you, an, essential, condition, si nequa non, is to be fullfilled though, and it will come hard to all 'parties' to accept it, it is that Justice must be served, not only let to but encouraged to, about all and anything being into its consideration, and, also, all and everything that should be or become of its concern! There is no 'State' without 'Law', and there is no 'Democracy' without 'Justice', for all...

And to the ones allowing themselves to (mis-?)use South Africa as an example, Nelson Mandela included: don't attempt to bend History to fit your twisted theories, what I write hereabove is the way the Great Man wanted 'Reconciliation' to happen, and largely how it did, in his country, Justice too as a matter of fact, so, please, leave the RSA out of your plea for injustice, leave Nelson Mandela out of it, it's bad enough Thaksin dared to compare himself to him (as a Statesman even Mandela had to compromise, and let himself be caught on a picture with a 'Great Democrat' (NOT!) like Robert Mugabe, or a Thaksin Shinawatra, the Thai PM, in fact, are both last not very good friends? But that's a bit off topic...)!

I think you need to do a little research as to exactly what positions allow you to sit above the law in Thailand. Until you understand this, you will indeed never understand why the Thai think the way they do.

[Robespiere]

I'm not Thai, so I cannot fathom all the meanders of Thainess, but, IMHO, true 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved in the way the Thaksin/Shins/PTP/UDD partisans want to have it. To me, it is as if(?) they would want to abuse the principles of reconciliation to become in the end the general amnesty they could not become while having used up every, any, even the most crooked, means they could think of at the time. To me their plea sounds as honest as when they pretend to be wanting 'free and fair' elections, NOT then...

True 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved by ignoring, forgetting, shoving-under-the-carpet, any act which anyone could consider criminal, unconstitutional, illegal, corrupt or adverse, made by any party, organisation, group, clan, family or individual(s), may they be/have been 'coloured' yellow, blue, white, red, black ...brown, green, or not, living in Thailand or staying abroad! The painfull list of all those acts must be patiently made up, with no exceptions allowed, and everyone suspected must be, very clearly, able and willing to take up its responsibility, and be brave, or just consequent, enough to accept the possibly dire consequences. And the 'general public' must be informed about it, all, long and wide, into details, no shady corner left unexposed.

It is then, and then only, that some, minor, elements can be, publicly, put on a table of negotiations, for a possible 'compensation of accounts', with all the parties' agreement, to allow a general compromise, including mutual forgiveness, with the aim to enable the Kingdom of Thailand to make its first(!) true steps towards becoming(!) a true Democracy!

Mind you, an, essential, condition, si nequa non, is to be fullfilled though, and it will come hard to all 'parties' to accept it, it is that Justice must be served, not only let to but encouraged to, about all and anything being into its consideration, and, also, all and everything that should be or become of its concern! There is no 'State' without 'Law', and there is no 'Democracy' without 'Justice', for all...

And to the ones allowing themselves to (mis-?)use South Africa as an example, Nelson Mandela included: don't attempt to bend History to fit your twisted theories, what I write hereabove is the way the Great Man wanted 'Reconciliation' to happen, and largely how it did, in his country, Justice too as a matter of fact, so, please, leave the RSA out of your plea for injustice, leave Nelson Mandela out of it, it's bad enough Thaksin dared to compare himself to him (as a Statesman even Mandela had to compromise, and let himself be caught on a picture with a 'Great Democrat' (NOT!) like Robert Mugabe, or a Thaksin Shinawatra, the Thai PM, in fact, are both last not very good friends? But that's a bit off topic...)!

The small number of people that have "owned" Thailand are losing their grip.

It is inevitable that their days are numbered.

How best to make the transition?

Tit for Tat?

When the Reds are in power, after winning elections, they get on with the job of running the country and have no time for vengeance.

When the Yellows are in power, after military and judicial coups, they seek out their foes with a vengeance and have no time to administer the country.

The amnesty bill was an attempt to short-circuit this merry-go-round and bring an end to hostilities.

That the Yellows will lose this war can be seen by all bar the Yellows themselves.

When the Yellows accept the reality of their defeat, there will be an amnesty for all involved and Thailand will be able to move forward to the long term benefit of all her citizens.

As we look back on this period it will be seen for what it is, an unnecessary, costly and deadly waste of time very similar to the last weeks and months of the Japanese effort in WW2.

Let us all hope the Reds don't need to resort to the nuclear option, as the US did with Japan, to make the Yellows finally accept the reality of their defeat.

[robblok]

I'm not Thai, so I cannot fathom all the meanders of Thainess, but, IMHO, true 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved in the way the Thaksin/Shins/PTP/UDD partisans want to have it. To me, it is as if(?) they would want to abuse the principles of reconciliation to become in the end the general amnesty they could not become while having used up every, any, even the most crooked, means they could think of at the time. To me their plea sounds as honest as when they pretend to be wanting 'free and fair' elections, NOT then...

True 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved by ignoring, forgetting, shoving-under-the-carpet, any act which anyone could consider criminal, unconstitutional, illegal, corrupt or adverse, made by any party, organisation, group, clan, family or individual(s), may they be/have been 'coloured' yellow, blue, white, red, black ...brown, green, or not, living in Thailand or staying abroad! The painfull list of all those acts must be patiently made up, with no exceptions allowed, and everyone suspected must be, very clearly, able and willing to take up its responsibility, and be brave, or just consequent, enough to accept the possibly dire consequences. And the 'general public' must be informed about it, all, long and wide, into details, no shady corner left unexposed.

It is then, and then only, that some, minor, elements can be, publicly, put on a table of negotiations, for a possible 'compensation of accounts', with all the parties' agreement, to allow a general compromise, including mutual forgiveness, with the aim to enable the Kingdom of Thailand to make its first(!) true steps towards becoming(!) a true Democracy!

Mind you, an, essential, condition, si nequa non, is to be fullfilled though, and it will come hard to all 'parties' to accept it, it is that Justice must be served, not only let to but encouraged to, about all and anything being into its consideration, and, also, all and everything that should be or become of its concern! There is no 'State' without 'Law', and there is no 'Democracy' without 'Justice', for all...

And to the ones allowing themselves to (mis-?)use South Africa as an example, Nelson Mandela included: don't attempt to bend History to fit your twisted theories, what I write hereabove is the way the Great Man wanted 'Reconciliation' to happen, and largely how it did, in his country, Justice too as a matter of fact, so, please, leave the RSA out of your plea for injustice, leave Nelson Mandela out of it, it's bad enough Thaksin dared to compare himself to him (as a Statesman even Mandela had to compromise, and let himself be caught on a picture with a 'Great Democrat' (NOT!) like Robert Mugabe, or a Thaksin Shinawatra, the Thai PM, in fact, are both last not very good friends? But that's a bit off topic...)!

The small number of people that have "owned" Thailand are losing their grip.

It is inevitable that their days are numbered.

How best to make the transition?

Tit for Tat?

When the Reds are in power, after winning elections, they get on with the job of running the country and have no time for vengeance.

When the Yellows are in power, after military and judicial coups, they seek out their foes with a vengeance and have no time to administer the country.

The amnesty bill was an attempt to short-circuit this merry-go-round and bring an end to hostilities.

That the Yellows will lose this war can be seen by all bar the Yellows themselves.

When the Yellows accept the reality of their defeat, there will be an amnesty for all involved and Thailand will be able to move forward to the long term benefit of all her citizens.

As we look back on this period it will be seen for what it is, an unnecessary, costly and deadly waste of time very similar to the last weeks and months of the Japanese effort in WW2.

Let us all hope the Reds don't need to resort to the nuclear option, as the US did with Japan, to make the Yellows finally accept the reality of their defeat.

No the amnesty bill without Thaksin would be ok.. but that one with Taksin included ingited the troubles and caused this coup. Even the red leaders agree the amnesty was a mistake. He was included at the last minute late at night. While the amnesty without Thaksin was agreed upon by others

No thanks to Thaksin his arrogance some poor redshirts are still in jail. He only cares about himself, without him there could be peace.

[473geo]

No doubt Robespiere (the poster formerly known as,,,,,,,,,,,,) will be able to correct all of those points, case by case, on both your posts.

We await his response with interest.

Oh come now, in the interests of honest disclosure, and to support the fact that in future your opinions may be accepted at face value, don't be so coy......name the previous incarnation....otherwise it would appear you tilt at windmills.....perhaps a rename for yourself is in order...may I suggest Don.

[Prbkk]

Conveniently 'forgotten' in these discussions about amnesty is the fact that the key opinion polls showed very strong support for amnesty as a path to reconciliation. Read some of the more extreme positions from some TV posters and one might believe this was some sort of ambush....simply not the case, public opinion in favour, Yingluck canvassed during the election campaign and could claim a mandate given her overwhelming victory, the opposition walked out of the debate in the usual 'spit the dummy' theatrics they employ.

The bill may have been ill-considered or ill-timed but it was no ambush and should not be presented as such. To continue to do so is disingenuous and more than a bit silly

[Robespiere]

I'm not Thai, so I cannot fathom all the meanders of Thainess, but, IMHO, true 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved in the way the Thaksin/Shins/PTP/UDD partisans want to have it. To me, it is as if(?) they would want to abuse the principles of reconciliation to become in the end the general amnesty they could not become while having used up every, any, even the most crooked, means they could think of at the time. To me their plea sounds as honest as when they pretend to be wanting 'free and fair' elections, NOT then...

True 'Reconciliation' can impossibly be achieved by ignoring, forgetting, shoving-under-the-carpet, any act which anyone could consider criminal, unconstitutional, illegal, corrupt or adverse, made by any party, organisation, group, clan, family or individual(s), may they be/have been 'coloured' yellow, blue, white, red, black ...brown, green, or not, living in Thailand or staying abroad! The painfull list of all those acts must be patiently made up, with no exceptions allowed, and everyone suspected must be, very clearly, able and willing to take up its responsibility, and be brave, or just consequent, enough to accept the possibly dire consequences. And the 'general public' must be informed about it, all, long and wide, into details, no shady corner left unexposed.

It is then, and then only, that some, minor, elements can be, publicly, put on a table of negotiations, for a possible 'compensation of accounts', with all the parties' agreement, to allow a general compromise, including mutual forgiveness, with the aim to enable the Kingdom of Thailand to make its first(!) true steps towards becoming(!) a true Democracy!

Mind you, an, essential, condition, si nequa non, is to be fullfilled though, and it will come hard to all 'parties' to accept it, it is that Justice must be served, not only let to but encouraged to, about all and anything being into its consideration, and, also, all and everything that should be or become of its concern! There is no 'State' without 'Law', and there is no 'Democracy' without 'Justice', for all...

And to the ones allowing themselves to (mis-?)use South Africa as an example, Nelson Mandela included: don't attempt to bend History to fit your twisted theories, what I write hereabove is the way the Great Man wanted 'Reconciliation' to happen, and largely how it did, in his country, Justice too as a matter of fact, so, please, leave the RSA out of your plea for injustice, leave Nelson Mandela out of it, it's bad enough Thaksin dared to compare himself to him (as a Statesman even Mandela had to compromise, and let himself be caught on a picture with a 'Great Democrat' (NOT!) like Robert Mugabe, or a Thaksin Shinawatra, the Thai PM, in fact, are both last not very good friends? But that's a bit off topic...)!

The small number of people that have "owned" Thailand are losing their grip.

It is inevitable that their days are numbered.

How best to make the transition?

Tit for Tat?

When the Reds are in power, after winning elections, they get on with the job of running the country and have no time for vengeance.

When the Yellows are in power, after military and judicial coups, they seek out their foes with a vengeance and have no time to administer the country.

The amnesty bill was an attempt to short-circuit this merry-go-round and bring an end to hostilities.

That the Yellows will lose this war can be seen by all bar the Yellows themselves.

When the Yellows accept the reality of their defeat, there will be an amnesty for all involved and Thailand will be able to move forward to the long term benefit of all her citizens.

As we look back on this period it will be seen for what it is, an unnecessary, costly and deadly waste of time very similar to the last weeks and months of the Japanese effort in WW2.

Let us all hope the Reds don't need to resort to the nuclear option, as the US did with Japan, to make the Yellows finally accept the reality of their defeat.

No the amnesty bill without Thaksin would be ok.. but that one with Taksin included ingited the troubles and caused this coup. Even the red leaders agree the amnesty was a mistake. He was included at the last minute late at night. While the amnesty without Thaksin was agreed upon by others

No thanks to Thaksin his arrogance some poor redshirts are still in jail. He only cares about himself, without him there could be peace.

Without Thaksin the Yellows would just create another demon to justify their continued raping and pillaging of the country at the peoples expense.

[Robespiere]

No doubt Robespiere (the poster formerly known as,,,,,,,,,,,,) will be able to correct all of those points, case by case, on both your posts.

We await his response with interest.

Oh come now, in the interests of honest disclosure, and to support the fact that in future your opinions may be accepted at face value, don't be so coy......name the previous incarnation....otherwise it would appear you tilt at windmills.....perhaps a rename for yourself is in order...may I suggest Don.

What's the question?

BTW - Sancho Panza has a better ring to it.

[robblok]

Conveniently 'forgotten' in these discussions about amnesty is the fact that the key opinion polls showed very strong support for amnesty as a path to reconciliation. Read some of the more extreme positions from some TV posters and one might believe this was some sort of ambush....simply not the case, public opinion in favour, Yingluck canvassed during the election campaign and could claim a mandate given her overwhelming victory, the opposition walked out of the debate in the usual 'spit the dummy' theatrics they employ.

The bill may have been ill-considered or ill-timed but it was no ambush and should not be presented as such. To continue to do so is disingenuous and more than a bit silly

I lived trough it.. the first amnesty did not include him.. only at the last moment at a night vote he was included and they tried to push it through.

[Eric Loh]

In Robespierre and other like-minded members' 'prosa' (it's Sunday, I'm in a good mood, so let me call it like that), I am still reading: 'coup' here, 'coup' there... May I be allowed to point out to these stakhanovist repetitive workers, that, possibly, unbiased, un-manipulated, History might decide to describe the events in a quite different way.

The most recent 'coup d'état' was perpetrated at night, about 3am, by PTP's MPs and 'affiliated' Senators (the PM was 'providentially' absent for the vote). Find out what a 'coup d'état' is, and, when you're honest, you won't be able to disagree this is really what that was. And, that makes of May 22nd a 'counter coup' then... Will you adapt to the reality of facts?

And while we are at definitions, the 2010 'reds'' 'insurgency', might also be called an attempted 'putsch' by Thaksin & Co. against the Government...

IMO, calling events by their true name puts those events into a more objective perspective, wouldn't you say, Robby?

Wow, I really hear it all. Seem you and your junta kissing clique is full of inventive ideas from bankrupting the country to civil war and now this non military coup in Parliment house. What the government did was sneaky but totally legit in passing the bill in the middle of the night. The Dems did not want to lose their beauty sleep and even if they are present will be out voted. Totally legal and only the first stage to a long process of being enacted as law which fortunately failed. Now stop these childish scenario imagination. It's hilarious.

[473geo]

No doubt Robespiere (the poster formerly known as,,,,,,,,,,,,) will be able to correct all of those points, case by case, on both your posts.

We await his response with interest.

Oh come now, in the interests of honest disclosure, and to support the fact that in future your opinions may be accepted at face value, don't be so coy......name the previous incarnation....otherwise it would appear you tilt at windmills.....perhaps a rename for yourself is in order...may I suggest Don.

What's the question?

BTW - Sancho Panza has a better ring to it.

Perhaps, the question is Sancho/Don/Baerbox able to provide a previous incarnation to back up his assertion?

[Robespiere]

In Robespierre and other like-minded members' 'prosa' (it's Sunday, I'm in a good mood, so let me call it like that), I am still reading: 'coup' here, 'coup' there... May I be allowed to point out to these stakhanovist repetitive workers, that, possibly, unbiased, un-manipulated, History might decide to describe the events in a quite different way.

The most recent 'coup d'état' was perpetrated at night, about 3am, by PTP's MPs and 'affiliated' Senators (the PM was 'providentially' absent for the vote). Find out what a 'coup d'état' is, and, when you're honest, you won't be able to disagree this is really what that was. And, that makes of May 22nd a 'counter coup' then... Will you adapt to the reality of facts?

And while we are at definitions, the 2010 'reds'' 'insurgency', might also be called an attempted 'putsch' by Thaksin & Co. against the Government...

IMO, calling events by their true name puts those events into a more objective perspective, wouldn't you say, Robby?

Coup d'état: a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force.

Putsch: a violent attempt to overthrow a government; a coup.

Using the above definitions, you couldn't be more wrong.

1. At 3am, the PTP were the government so they hardly committed a coup d'etat against themselves.

​2. In 2010 the Reds demanded elections, not the overthrow the unelected government of the day

IMO, not understanding the definitions of the words one uses is quite foolish.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Robespiere

[Robespiere]

Sometimes it's better not to let the future be held hostage by the past.

From Mr Mandela:

"Great anger and violence can never build a nation. We are striving to proceed in a manner and towards a result, which will ensure that all our people, both black and white, emerge as victors.” (Speech to European Parliament, 1990)

“Without democracy there cannot be peace.” (South Africa, May 9, 1992)

And hasn't that worked out well for South Africa?

I don't think that there are too many South Africans desperate for a return to apartheid.

The ones that are, if they were Thai, would be diehard, fanatical Yellows.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Robespiere