Riding safe in Thailand - what's a safe speed?

[Gweiloman]

There is a side conversation in another thread regarding the topic.

As we are well and truly into the riding season, I thought it might be a good idea to bring this up for more general discussion as it's an important subject.

Another poster had put up this post on the other thread:

"Anyone who wants high speeds on any size of bike on Thai roads must have a death wish, I rode my PXS 150 from Phichit to Mukdahan and back, never went faster than 60. I saw plenty of big bikes on that trip traveling at probably more than 100, it just takes a pothole in the shade of a tree and not seen by the rider in time to have devastating effects, what about oil, gravel on the roads? Yes, I understand the thrill of a high speed ride, but I would rather not take the chance of being crippled or dead"

Reply from another poster:

"You are right however bigger bikes also have bigger and better suspension / wheels. There are many potholes my scooter would have a lot of problems with my big bike would not."

Response by original poster:

"I have nothing against big bikes, I had a Honda 250 Dream back in Scotland, and your post is spot on, but anything on two wheels will have problems if you hit oil spillage, or gravel, of course you always watch out for that, but when trees overshadow the roads on a sunny day, all riders have to be extra careful."

My reply:

" speeds depend on the road, amount of traffic etc etc. I just finished a 2000 km round trip and except for some very bad stretches and through villages, average speed was 130-140 kmh. No issues with pot holes or oil spills. Lots of other riders doing similar speeds as well"

Response by original poster:

"That's right, as I have said all along, I'm not interested in speed, I am happy to take my time and enjoy the ride, and yes, I am talking Kmh. but if you want to ride so fast, that is up to you, I noticed gravel on the road, and in my opinion, that can be as lethal as ice. I hope your luck holds out.

I did see a rider skid on gravel and he came off his bike, he was not going fast and was also riding on the wrong side of the road so sam-nam- na."

My reply:

"I would not bother going on a road trip if I had to ride at 60 km/h but it is completely incorrect for you to say that I (or most other riders) have a death wish if we rode at 100 km/h. Like I said, a lot depends on the road in question, the condition of it's surface, other traffic etc etc.

If you were following another thread, you would realise that I did come off my bike - doing about 5 km/h - whereas 30 minutes prior to that, I was doing about 120 km/h. Go figure.

I would strongly recommend against riding at speeds of 100 kmh on the PCX. It is too unstable at that speed.

Having said that, riding at 60 kmh along many stretches of roads in Thailand (Hwy 12 Lomsak to Phitsanulok for eg) is, in my opinion, many times more dangerous that riding at 120 kmh."

Response:

"Yes, I agree entirely, it depends on roads and road conditions, maybe I have got it wrong, but it seems you are sometimes going over the speed limit. you don't need me to tell you that the majority of drivers in Thailand are idiots. ie, overtaking you, then slowing down quickly to make a left hand turn in front of you.

A long straight road and dry conditions, very little traffic, you are riding along at 140 Khm, you don't know if someone or even animals are going to come out from either side at an opening in front of you, where I was riding two weeks ago there were lots of notices telling you to beware of elephants. and they can run, anyway, stay safe.

I did that road two weeks ago, and felt very safe there mainly because of little traffic, is that the road near Petchaburn which has all the signs about elephants? No matter the bike, the road or the rider, nothing is near 100% perfect, but I do think riding on the hard shoulder on the hard shoulder of the highway at 60 Kmh on a PCX is much safer than doing 130 Kmh on a big bike on the first or second lane in average traffic.

I'm not against big bikes in any way, but I would never consider having one in Thailand with so many idiotic drivers on the road."

[Gweiloman]

If needs be, I would ride along at higher speeds, 180+ kmh or so and I would be the first to admit that this is not always the safest thing to do. My personal preference when on touring rides (and conditions permitting) is around 130-140 kmh (slower through moobans and towns, twisties, higher through sweeping curves).

However, I feel that it's a lot more dangerous to be pottering on the hard shoulder or side of the road at lower speeds with cars overtaking and the side of the road being much "dirtier" (gravel, sand etc).

Wonder what other riders think?

[guzzi850m2]

I think same way as you Gman.

Riding a small Thai scooter and getting overtaken by cars/trucks/lorries and buses is risky and you don't have any spare power to get out of the way quickly.

Also staying on the center area of the road gives you 2 ways to go and the gravel/dirt and pot holes are normally not on the center part of the road.

I agree going faster than the normal traffic makes sense but not madly faster.

[Dutchbike]

Average speed in Thailand is all depending on the road and area where you riding and what the rider feels as a comfortable and safe speed.

I ride a few different bikes, but never feel really safe cruising much faster then 110/120 but again it all depends on the road( surface) U-turns other roadusers etc. I rode quite some times from Buriram province to Chonburi province ( taking the 24 / 304 / 331) and that route allows higher speeds then local roads.

It's maybe me but there to many unknown factors down the road ( the mentioned, U-turns,animals on the loose, "strange behavior of other road users) which make me feel unconfortable riding at high speeds ( the occasional speed burst aside)

The way I ride ( and drive) in Thailand I call "the terminator mode" ( like the movie in which Arnie scans his surroundings)

[taninthai]

40_60. Is fine for pottering about on the scooter down to 7/11......touring anything from 130 to 150 with a couple of blasts to 170/180 is good and pretty safe.

60 on big roads is putting yourself in dangerous situations

[NoshowJones]

Good topic here Gman, I will follow it with interest, I am very interested to hear other bikers opinions, can I ask if anyone with smaller bikes ie, Honda Wave or PCX does road trips, and their opinions about speed and safety?

[billd766]

I went up to Khampaeng Phet today as it was a beautiful sunny dry day for a ride from my house on my Honda CB400.

Most of the ride was on the 1117 which is a good road though it has moo bans every few kilometres. I kept my speed to around 90/95kph which I considered safe and reasonable. Up near KPP I joined the AH1/AH2 which is a dual carriageway and went around 110/115 kph. I felt pretty safe but there were a few numpties around in pickups and SUVs to keep my head swivelling.

There were more numpties on the way back and they were worse drivers..

It is only a safe speed if you can see all around you all of the time. Slow is OK if you keep as far left as you can but IMO (I am 70) much more than 130 is far too dangerous unless you and your bike are in perfect condition, and you are lucky too.

[ll2]

Prefer not going over 150 - 160 kph if i am touring. Above that might make tou tired and you miss the scenery as you have to focus on riding the bike more.

But for spirited rides with others with the aim of riding only, if road ahead is empty and if it is a long stretch with good visibility, i dont mind pushing my bike to rev limiter at 6th speed.

But i always slow down at intersections and sometime at busy u turns.

Keep in mind, over the years what i understand, if you are on a bike always be ahead than behind. Much safer to be away from other vehicles.

With long years of experience, i developed some kind of spider sense and as dutchbike said, i also ride at terminator mode like a cyborg also i dont panic, nerves became like steel long time ago.

So, according to my opinion, one has to adjust the speed depending on their experience, riding skills and where they feel confidence. Never push yourself over yout limit.

Riding at the shoulder where all the debris from the road stay is not a very good idea as if something jumps to road - animal, human, other vehicles - it is more dangerous. I stay at the fast lane.

Riding slow might be more dangerous than going fast with the traffic imo.

[CharlieH]

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[AnotherOneAmerican]

I average 27Km/hr on my bicycle.

Top speed 50Km/hr.

[AllanB]

On a big open road in Thailand 100kph, on a good A road 80/90, between cars/trucks in a traffic jam, a little over walking pace, everything else "sensibly". Meaning be ready to stop for anything, or be doing less than 15mph when you leave the bike.

Anything more than 110kph on Thai roads, call yourself Charles Bronson, but without the gun and happy ending.

"Here lies the body of William John, who stopped his bike but still went on."

[NoshowJones]

I went up to Khampaeng Phet today as it was a beautiful sunny dry day for a ride from my house on my Honda CB400.

Most of the ride was on the 1117 which is a good road though it has moo bans every few kilometres. I kept my speed to around 90/95kph which I considered safe and reasonable. Up near KPP I joined the AH1/AH2 which is a dual carriageway and went around 110/115 kph. I felt pretty safe but there were a few numpties around in pickups and SUVs to keep my head swivelling.

There were more numpties on the way back and they were worse drivers..

It is only a safe speed if you can see all around you all of the time. Slow is OK if you keep as far left as you can but IMO (I am 70) much more than 130 is far too dangerous unless you and your bike are in perfect condition, and you are lucky too.

Your right, I always keep as far left as I can.

[RubberSideDown]

I always ride 5-10mph faster than the flow of traffic- I don't like being overtaken by cages, and I'm easier to see as a 'moving target'. I occasionally make sure my throttle-stop is still in place (maybe not in 6th;)), but I carefully pick my spots. I've also upgraded my brake lines and pads to buy me some extra stopping distance- if your brakes are mediocre, you need to adjust your speed accordingly- that's one of the biggest safety problems with scooters and budget bikes, IMHO, which is that they're equipped with engines that can easily outride their brakes- money spent on the upgrade will never be wasted.

All riders being equal (of course they're not), your bike is a limiting factor for how fast you can safely ride.

[jackcorbett]

There is no such thing as a safe speed here in Thailand. I just grounded out my Honda Civic in the outdoor parking area of the main parking area for Tuk Com here in Pattaya. There was a big hole in the parking lot which got filled with Water so I had no idea of how deep it was. A few weeks ago, just past Rayong on the main road I nearly lost my new Yamaha SR400. There was a light and all the cars and motorbikes were stopping. There must have been six lanes of traffic there and I didn't see the huge ripple in the pavement. The bottom of the corduroy pattern or crease was over 12 inches deep and the bike just went down. Thankfully I was alert and very quick at catching the bike before it went completely horizontal and jammed into the pavement. It took all my strength to keep it afloat. The lighting conditions had turned flat so I couldn't see the huge ripple. Had the bike been much heavier I couldn't have managed it or had I been a weaker person, less quick, etc. Holes and ripples in the pavement on U.S. roads of this magnitude simply do not exist but here everything is permitted, a large percentage of the Thai drivers are homicidal maniacs, and the authorities are completely uninterested in preserving either life or limb.

[dave_boo]

I always ride 5-10mph faster than the flow of traffic- I don't like being overtaken by cages, and I'm easier to see as a 'moving target'. I occasionally make sure my throttle-stop is still in place (maybe not in 6th;)), but I carefully pick my spots. I've also upgraded my brake lines and pads to buy me some extra stopping distance- if your brakes are mediocre, you need to adjust your speed accordingly- that's one of the biggest safety problems with scooters and budget bikes, IMHO, which is that they're equipped with engines that can easily outride their brakes- money spent on the upgrade will never be wasted.

All riders being equal (of course they're not), your bike is a limiting factor for how fast you can safely ride.

That's really what it comes down to doesn't it? The skill of the rider.

I'm either very brave or very stupid (take your pick) at working my way through traffic. There's some that can't keep up and others that leave me behind. On the open road through a winding downhill mountain pass my ass -hole puckers up like a bull's during fly season and I am quickly at the back of the pack.

It's life that certain people are better at certain things. For someone to make a blanket statement that, due to their capabilities (or lack thereof) others should ride at such-and-such a speed is absurd. As stupid as the 'no child left behind'.

**edit**

Stupid profanity filters.

[seedy]

Ride Alone.

Stay ahead of the cars behind you and behind the cars ahead of you. Keep as much empty space around you as you can.

Watch your mirrors for minibus, Tuna, Merc, other AH's approaching from behind you.

Ride in the center of the road when possible, giving you equal pavement left and right to use in an emergency.

Speed - whatever conditions will handle. No set pace. Sometimes 60, sometimes 200. Depends.

If you stay away from other road users, the only thing that can go wrong is road conditions or your lack of skill.

Or just plain bad luck.

Remember - EVERYBODY is out to kill you

[BSJ]

I had to take the pick-up into Phitsanulok today to get supplies. The roads are full of numpties because of the holidays. What I noticed coming back down 11 was the number of retards with no tail lamp or rear reflector on their scooters or 3 wheelers.

No-one here would be stupid enough to ride without a tail lamp....would they?

[Beardog]

I ride usualy 120-140 & sometimes faster when I hit the outskirts away from pataya. I try to never let a bus truck or car & really try not to be any scooters either. I will wait for any fools running the lired light (like usual) but I have seen 3 people killed right before my eyes, 1 girl riding sidesaddle get torn off the taxis scooter(lack of a brain sidesaddle is great for horses ONLY) & even had a car try to mow down 3 riders. I was in the pack we all more or less led him to the sidestreet where he trashed a pole. Too bad for him sometimes road rage isn't to welcome. So I get up on it & stay in the middle of the pack away from everyone only leaving stray dogs & a random pedestrian to watch out for. I wouldn't own anything that won't stay going at 120KPH. My Yamaha nuevo was barely enough power & I was constantly getting forced out of my lane by bigger vehicles. So How fast is safe for me is what I can safely brake at & avoid the drivers or riders that have a death wish. I don't care if they want to take themself out. There choice Just do not want to be taken out by a road rager or someone either lacks the capacity to ride anymore or has never had any real training for riding & endangering others. On the outskirts in Pattaya area the cars go 120-140 so if I need to do 150 for 5 seconds to get to the middle of the pack(as in no cars or bikes in between me) & then drop down to 130-140 so I don't fall behind. If your in town that is not the place to go too fast . so it is less than the faster speed. But the speed depends on the circumstance at the moment.

[dave_boo]

I ride usualy 120-140 & sometimes faster when I hit the outskirts away from pataya. I try to never let a bus truck or car & really try not to be any scooters either. I will wait for any fools running the lired light (like usual) but I have seen 3 people killed right before my eyes, 1 girl riding sidesaddle get torn off the taxis scooter(lack of a brain sidesaddle is great for horses ONLY) & even had a car try to mow down 3 riders. I was in the pack we all more or less led him to the sidestreet where he trashed a pole. Too bad for him sometimes road rage isn't to welcome. So I get up on it & stay in the middle of the pack away from everyone only leaving stray dogs & a random pedestrian to watch out for. I wouldn't own anything that won't stay going at 120KPH. My Yamaha nuevo was barely enough power & I was constantly getting forced out of my lane by bigger vehicles. So How fast is safe for me is what I can safely brake at & avoid the drivers or riders that have a death wish. I don't care if they want to take themself out. There choice Just do not want to be taken out by a road rager or someone either lacks the capacity to ride anymore or has never had any real training for riding & endangering others. On the outskirts in Pattaya area the cars go 120-140 so if I need to do 150 for 5 seconds to get to the middle of the pack(as in no cars or bikes in between me) & then drop down to 130-140 so I don't fall behind. If your in town that is not the place to go too fast . so it is less than the faster speed. But the speed depends on the circumstance at the moment.

This is a good point also.

Placing yourself in the 50 - 100 meter gaps between groups of cars either by slowing down or speeding up can really save your bacon by either having the group in front of you sweep the crap out of the way or leaving you with a sight line on what's going on. Also gives you time to react to idiots behind you.

[Gweiloman]

Ride Alone.

Stay ahead of the cars behind you and behind the cars ahead of you. Keep as much empty space around you as you can.

Watch your mirrors for minibus, Tuna, Merc, other AH's approaching from behind you.

Ride in the center of the road when possible, giving you equal pavement left and right to use in an emergency.

Speed - whatever conditions will handle. No set pace. Sometimes 60, sometimes 200. Depends.

If you stay away from other road users, the only thing that can go wrong is road conditions or your lack of skill.

Or just plain bad luck.

Remember - EVERYBODY is out to kill you

"Stay ahead of the cars behind you and behind the cars ahead of you"

Good advice but not realistic. More often than not, the cars behind you will catch up to the cars ahead of you. What to do then?

My advice would be immediately after overtaking a car, keep pulling away ie go faster than the car you have just overtaken and not keeping the same speed. Sooner or later, you will catch up to the car infront. Rinse and repeat.

Agree with every other point of your post.

[Gweiloman]

I went up to Khampaeng Phet today as it was a beautiful sunny dry day for a ride from my house on my Honda CB400.

Most of the ride was on the 1117 which is a good road though it has moo bans every few kilometres. I kept my speed to around 90/95kph which I considered safe and reasonable. Up near KPP I joined the AH1/AH2 which is a dual carriageway and went around 110/115 kph. I felt pretty safe but there were a few numpties around in pickups and SUVs to keep my head swivelling.

There were more numpties on the way back and they were worse drivers..

It is only a safe speed if you can see all around you all of the time. Slow is OK if you keep as far left as you can but IMO (I am 70) much more than 130 is far too dangerous unless you and your bike are in perfect condition, and you are lucky too.

Your right, I always keep as far left as I can.

Riders, especially in Bangkok, don't refer to the left lane as "suicide lane" for no good reason.

[Gweiloman]

I average 27Km/hr on my bicycle.

Top speed 50Km/hr.

How does it feel when the cars / trucks / pick ups / minivans overtake you? Scary?

[Gweiloman]

On a big open road in Thailand 100kph, on a good A road 80/90, between cars/trucks in a traffic jam, a little over walking pace, everything else "sensibly". Meaning be ready to stop for anything, or be doing less than 15mph when you leave the bike.

Anything more than 110kph on Thai roads, call yourself Charles Bronson, but without the gun and happy ending.

"Here lies the body of William John, who stopped his bike but still went on."

I remember reading a statistic here on TV that 70-80% of road fatalities in Thailand involve motorcycles.

Does anyone know, or is willing to hazard a guess, as to whether the majority of these fatalities involve bikes travelling above or below 100 kmh?

[Neeranam]

What's the speed limit?

Anything over that is dangerous.

I would never ride a bike on country roads at any speed - suicide.

[dave_boo]

On a big open road in Thailand 100kph, on a good A road 80/90, between cars/trucks in a traffic jam, a little over walking pace, everything else "sensibly". Meaning be ready to stop for anything, or be doing less than 15mph when you leave the bike.

Anything more than 110kph on Thai roads, call yourself Charles Bronson, but without the gun and happy ending.

"Here lies the body of William John, who stopped his bike but still went on."

I remember reading a statistic here on TV that 70-80% of road fatalities in Thailand involve motorcycles.

Does anyone know, or is willing to hazard a guess, as to whether the majority of these fatalities involve bikes travelling above or below 100 kmh?

Technically the fatalities occur, as alluded to the post you're replying to, when the bike and rider reaches a velocity of 0.

Above that it doesn't matter much because there is no bike out there that can accelerate more quickly than your body can handle.

[DualSportBiker]

Lots of good contribution here - some people however seem to think there is a one-speed-fits-all approach that works. I don't agree.

The safe speed for any given stretch of road changes with road conditions, lighting, vehicle density, spread and speed, and speed variation, as well as you the rider, your bike etc... the list is long. My point however, is that the ideal safe speed changes constantly.

I agree with those who ride faster than the majority of cages and local bikes. I agree with those who actively look for space and work to stay in space. I consider this critical to safe riding and driving. I personally like traffic lights on main highways up-country for this reason. They typically create large empty spaces for bikes to ride into ahead of slower cages and local bikes. That is not always the case, but more often than not for the routes i've ridden.

I just completed 1,818 km from Nonthaburi to near Chiang Mai through Suphan, Mae Sot, Mae Sariang - mostly backroads of 3 and 4 digits, some rural roads, and a little on the highway from Tak to Kamphaeng Phet. I averaged 88 km/h and hit 150 a couple of times. At those speeds I'd be at the back of the pack on the highway and playing catch up with the GS1200 riders I ride with normall... That's why I keep to myself, ride the backroads, and only ride with them on the mountain roads where they can't open up too much.

edited for sleepiness...

[Gweiloman]

On a big open road in Thailand 100kph, on a good A road 80/90, between cars/trucks in a traffic jam, a little over walking pace, everything else "sensibly". Meaning be ready to stop for anything, or be doing less than 15mph when you leave the bike.

Anything more than 110kph on Thai roads, call yourself Charles Bronson, but without the gun and happy ending.

"Here lies the body of William John, who stopped his bike but still went on."

I remember reading a statistic here on TV that 70-80% of road fatalities in Thailand involve motorcycles.

Does anyone know, or is willing to hazard a guess, as to whether the majority of these fatalities involve bikes travelling above or below 100 kmh?

Technically the fatalities occur, as alluded to the post you're replying to, when the bike and rider reaches a velocity of 0.

Above that it doesn't matter much because there is no bike out there that can accelerate more quickly than your body can handle.

Hahahaha. You know that's not what I mean.

[Gweiloman]

Lots of good contribution here - some people however seem to think there is a one-speed-fits-all approach that works. I don't agree.

The safe speed for any given stretch of road changes with road conditions, lighting, vehicle density, spread and speed, and speed variation, as well as you the rider, your bike etc... the list is long. My point however, is that the ideal safe speed changes constantly.

I agree with those who ride faster than the majority of cages and local bikes. I agree with those who actively look for space and work to stay in space. I consider this critical to safe riding and driving. I personally like traffic lights on main highways up-country for this reason. They typically create large empty spaces for bikes to ride into ahead of slower cages and local bikes. That is not always the case, but more often than not for the routes i've ridden.

I just completed 1,818 km from Nonthaburi to near Chiang Mai through Suphan, Mae Sot, Mae Sariang - mostly backroads of 3 and 4 digits, some rural roads, and a little on the highway from Tak to Kamphaeng Phet. I averaged 88 km/h and hit 150 a couple of times. At those speeds I'd be at the back of the pack on the highway and playing catch up with the GS1200 riders I ride with normall... That's why I keep to myself, ride the backroads, and only ride with them on the mountain roads where they can't open up too much.

edited for sleepiness...

Best post on the thread so far. There's no such thing as an absolute safe speed. It's all about the road condition, traffic, bike so on and so forth.

For those of you that might have missed it, take a look at this video (

) put up recently by taninthai of our ride on Hwy 12 from Lom Sak to P'nulok. The first part of the journey was not fun, lots and lots of construction, sand and gravel on the roads (even on the twisty bits). We slowed right down (or at least, I did and the other two had no choice but to stay behind me). However, once we got past about halfway, the construction had been completed and it was the dream road that always knew it would be (I can tell you that the road surface was as good as any German autobahn).

The first time that you see any indication of speed is at around 0:30 (115 kmh indicated). At this speed, you can clearly see any potential hazards and would have plenty of time to take defensive action.

From then on, the speed started to increase progressively (although TiT did drop to below 90 at one stage due to traffic conditions) till TiT hit 180 kmh indicated. Apart from one unexplainable undertaking move on a slow moving pick up, can anyone point to any part in the video where these speeds were dangerous? If anything, I still maintain that the high speeds took us away from potential hazards (aka other motorists) till we were in the "pocket".

[taninthai]

Ahaha look closely at the undertake the pick up had his indicator on to make the right turn ......observant and thinking ahead riding.

[NoshowJones]

I went up to Khampaeng Phet today as it was a beautiful sunny dry day for a ride from my house on my Honda CB400.

Most of the ride was on the 1117 which is a good road though it has moo bans every few kilometres. I kept my speed to around 90/95kph which I considered safe and reasonable. Up near KPP I joined the AH1/AH2 which is a dual carriageway and went around 110/115 kph. I felt pretty safe but there were a few numpties around in pickups and SUVs to keep my head swivelling.

There were more numpties on the way back and they were worse drivers..

It is only a safe speed if you can see all around you all of the time. Slow is OK if you keep as far left as you can but IMO (I am 70) much more than 130 is far too dangerous unless you and your bike are in perfect condition, and you are lucky too.

Your right, I always keep as far left as I can.

Riders, especially in Bangkok, don't refer to the left lane as "suicide lane" for no good reason.

Your right of course, but keeping to the far left all the time does not apply in towns and cities, there are good reasons for this, you will know them yourself.