Z800 vs 650 F

[bealus]

Hello fellow Bikers!

As some already may know from another thread, I am in the process of buying a new bike.

Took a test ride on the Kawasaki Z 800 and the Ninja 650.

Was impressed by the way the Z800 delivers its 113 HP at 10.200 RPM and its low and middle range torque of 83 NM.

Ninja, while being a good competitor, could in my opinion not match the satisfaction I derived from riding the Z800.

Last week doing some "market-research", I encountered the new Honda CB 650 F and drove to Honda Big Wing for a test drive too.

Unfortunately due to Chinese New Year I could take a look at the bike, but not take it on the road as the showroom part was closed off.

Now at first glance the CB 650 F looked impressive too and the specs, altough not quite matching those of the Kawasaki Z 800, make it IMHO a promising bike to ride too.

This week I'll be test riding the Honda, but apart from my personal impressions, I would like to hear from the Bikers on TV which bike they would prefer and the pro's and con's

of either of them.

So which one would YOU choose the Kawa Z 800 or the Honda CB 650 F?

And your pro's and con's about these bikes, especially when compared to eachother!

Your opinion is highly appreciated

[DILLIGAD]

IMO z800 is more aggressive looking but too heavy.

CB650f is also nice looking bike and a more comfortable ride for longer journeys ( if your not an "inner city hooligan type")

[wowjudo]

The z800 might be more powerfull and agressive but it is not a good commuter. My bottom hurts after 1 hour of riding it , its very heavy and and tall (im 186cm). I wish it had ABS.

You feel alot of vibrations on the pegs while riding it at high rpm. But it is surprisingly agile when you drive over 20 km/h and again, the power is very good. Suspension setup is good

Just my review of 6 months ownership and 2700 km riding (weekend rider)

Will be selling it soon and get myself a sport bike since i prefer more wind protection and do not use the bike everyday.

I only tried the cb650f at the honda test ride course and it was ok. very smooth gearbox but i don't like the styling very much

The z800 has a smoother engine imo. you can ride it in 6th gear @ 30km/h and it runs perfectly smooth and pulls well

At the end it's up to you

I'd consider the the FZ-09 aswell. Its very fun bike but abit pricey @ 435k baht

Edited February 23, 2015 by wowjudo

[brfsa2]

Economically wise, go for the CBR650F, it's got enough power to Thailand roads, it's comfortable and got will have cheap maintenance. it has a really smooth gear box. You can sell it easily too if you decide to change.

oh, it has ABS, which can be really helpful sometimes. you can also upgrade it with some awesome tires and ohlins suspension.

Edited February 23, 2015 by brfsa2

[BKKBike09]

Both good bikes. I was quite tempted to buy a Z800. I haven't ridden either (I don't count riding round in the Kawa Rama 9 car park, although I also didn't think the weight is that noticeable). 375K is a good price. Not having ABS is a good point.

I bought an FZ09 which is great both in the city and for shortish rides outside. Stock suspension is poor but can be fixed easily enough (at more cost though of course). Torque delivery is amazing. Again no ABS.

If your budget is less than 400K and you want a naked bike Z800 and CB650 are good choices. If you can spend a bit more then I'd also seriously consider Street Triple R. If they hadn't still been 750K when I bought the Yam then I would have bought one.

If you're into modding then any Thai produced bike will offer plenty of options. I've seen some really nice looking modded 800s (eg this one which I saw just this weekend - took the pic for a friend who's thinking of getting one).

[DILLIGAD]

Not sure if it will get to LOS but Triumph have just brought out a special Street Triple Rx. Looks awesome!

[ll2]

i say cb650f.

it is nearly 90 k cheaper than z800 and on top has ABS.

z800 has a very heavy chassis with a rubber mounted engine. It means it will not be super dynamic and it is very heavy at 230 kg. Sure you dont feel that weight when the bike is rolling but when parking, moving bike around or low speed rides, u turns, you sure feel that weight. It also feel top heavy too. it is smooth though and engine is good although a bit old tech.

Overall z800 is old tech IMO.

cb650f is also a modern iteration of honda's old bikes IMO. It feel like a bike from 10 years ago but dynamically it is more advanced than z800.

cb650f is a good choice in Thailand. i use a cbr650f and it never missed a beat for 22 k kms. No problems at all and it is quite sporty and fun.

[Shurup]

OP, when I started looking for a new bike, z800 was one of the considerations, it actually was the very 1st bike on my list.

I didn't look at 650 then as at the time there were no choices in 650cc other than Ninja or ER6n. I knew I wouldn't be happy with 650cc, I would outgrow it too fast, it wouldn't be fun to ride any longer and I would be looking for an upgrade soon after. So I decided on 800cc+

My second choice was a Ducati Monster 796.

While I didn't test z800, I test rode the Monster. Even though the demo bike was a bit of a lemon, the bike was amazing! It got crazy power and incredibly light and agile.

I also considered a few other bikes like BMW F800-R and the FZ-09.

For safety reasons I decided to go with ABS bikes so z800 was out (it was also the heaviest of the bunch), as well as FZ-09.

BMW was very comfortable to sit on (didn't test it) and overall it looked very solid and well built, but it is ugly as hell.

Monster 796 is now discontinued but still being widely sold in Thailand.

Didn't want to get an outdated model and Ducati Thailand had no near future plans for the Monster 821, so Monster was out too.

Ended up getting a Diavel. Don't think I'll want to upgrade any time soon but also I won't enjoy riding anything with less balls, the power is addictive!

P.S. I suggest you go and try a Monster 796, you may like it.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Shurup

[wowjudo]

OP, when I started looking for a new bike, z800 was one of the considerations, it actually was the very 1st bike on my list.

I didn't look at 650 then as at the time there were no choices in 650cc other than Ninja or ER6n. I knew I wouldn't be happy with 650cc, I would outgrow it too fast, it wouldn't be fun to ride any longer and I would be looking for an upgrade soon after. So I decided on 800cc+

My second choice was a Ducati Monster 796.

While I didn't test z800, I test rode the Monster. Even though the demo bike was a bit of a lemon, the bike was amazing! It got crazy power and incredibly light and agile.

I also considered a few other bikes like BMW F800-R and the FZ-09.

For safety reasons I decided to go with ABS bikes so z800 was out (it was also the heaviest of the bunch), as well as FZ-09.

BMW was very comfortable to sit on (didn't test it) and overall it looked very solid and well built, but it is ugly as hell.

Monster 796 is now discontinued but still being widely sold in Thailand.

Didn't want to get an outdated model and Ducati Thailand had no near future plans for the Monster 821, so Monster was out too.

Ended up getting a Diavel. Don't think I'll want to upgrade any time soon but also I won't enjoy riding anything with less balls, the power is addictive!

P.S. I suggest you go and try a Monster 796, you may like it.

holy sh*t that escalated quickly. that is triple price of the cb650f

congrats on that one. really jealous here

[Phra Ek]

The Z800 is like a really hot looking girl who has too much baggage.

Yes - she has a nice rack and good legs, but no ABS and her even hotter sister the Z1000 is just so much better in all areas and with less weight - so you'll feel short-changed whenever the family gets together.

The Nina 650 is a great bike - nice looking, dependable and a good price - but a bit 'homely' with that parallel twin motor.

The CB650F is also hot .... those four chrome headers are just so pert - and she's a more modern girl with much less baggage and the bonus of ABS.

The Honda is that optimum combination of sweet looks and tingling performance without all the excess baggage.

[ttakata]

I suppose I would get the 650F too.

It will be plenty fast but if you get bored of it will be easier to sell.

I like the looks of the Z more but an uncomfortable bike is not ridden.

The saved cash can go towards better tires, riding gear, and hopup parts.

[ll2]

OP, when I started looking for a new bike, z800 was one of the considerations, it actually was the very 1st bike on my list.

I didn't look at 650 then as at the time there were no choices in 650cc other than Ninja or ER6n. I knew I wouldn't be happy with 650cc, I would outgrow it too fast, it wouldn't be fun to ride any longer and I would be looking for an upgrade soon after. So I decided on 800cc+

My second choice was a Ducati Monster 796.

While I didn't test z800, I test rode the Monster. Even though the demo bike was a bit of a lemon, the bike was amazing! It got crazy power and incredibly light and agile.

I also considered a few other bikes like BMW F800-R and the FZ-09.

For safety reasons I decided to go with ABS bikes so z800 was out (it was also the heaviest of the bunch), as well as FZ-09.

BMW was very comfortable to sit on (didn't test it) and overall it looked very solid and well built, but it is ugly as hell.

Monster 796 is now discontinued but still being widely sold in Thailand.

Didn't want to get an outdated model and Ducati Thailand had no near future plans for the Monster 821, so Monster was out too.

Ended up getting a Diavel. Don't think I'll want to upgrade any time soon but also I won't enjoy riding anything with less balls, the power is addictive!

P.S. I suggest you go and try a Monster 796, you may like it.

you can most probably outgrow a cb650f in a race track in Thailand:)

yes, i want some extra power at times - a cbr1000rr - but for 90 percent of my use, if i have a cbr1000rr sure i use its power at similar levels with cbr650f maybe apart from some red light antiques and wheelies and faster straight line performance.

[Shurup]

you can most probably outgrow a cb650f in a race track in Thailand:)

yes, i want some extra power at times - a cbr1000rr - but for 90 percent of my use, if i have a cbr1000rr sure i use its power at similar levels with cbr650f maybe apart from some red light antiques and wheelies and faster straight line performance.

I see your point and I agree, I am no city rider however, I live up country and most of my riding in open highways. It's crazy how it pulls when you're already going at highway speeds, it makes me high, no need for drugs or alcohol.

[eisfeld]

For me personally between CB650F and Z800 it would be the Honda. Z800 got more oomph (noticeable) but it's heavier, and for me the killer no ABS. The CB650F is plenty comfy (I did 800km in one go on it). I prefer the styling of the Z800 as it's aggressive but the CB is not ugly either.

If you ride a lot and for a bit longer or if you value ABS, there is a pretty clear winner. If you do short rides and want to be more of a hooligan, get the Z800.

If you have a bit more cash be sure to check out the Street Triple or MT-09 but their dealer networks are lacking.

Regarding the Monster: end of the year Ducati will bring the current Monster 821 to Thailand which is a big upgrade from the 796. But now you are in 450-500k THB territory.

At about the same price as the Z800 you can also get the new Scrambler if you like this kind of styling. Or are you set on a inline 4 engine?

What's your budget and what's your intended riding?

[Shurup]

...

Regarding the Monster: end of the year Ducati will bring the current Monster 821 to Thailand which is a big upgrade from the 796. But now you are in 450-500k THB territory.

At about the same price as the Z800 you can also get the new Scrambler if you like this kind of styling. Or are you set on a inline 4 engine?

What's your budget and what's your intended riding?

If he's not set on 4 inline and a little flexible on how much he wants to spend, there will be a few more choices for him from the 2 mentioned in the OP.

Monster 796 is a good bike and simple tech makes it reliable, I haven't read anything bad about them when doing my research.

796 is about 75K THB more than z800 but comes with ABS and weights 100 lbs less. On paper z800 has a little more power but it's all lost due to its extra weight is has to push. Surely the 821 will be in 500K range but more power and it's water cooled and a little heavier.

CB 650 is a good choice if he's happy with styling and power.

I'd suggest to go try them all, decide whether ABS is important or not and decide on your budget. For me it would come to the safety features (ABS) and price.

Good luck.

[JonnyF]

I think I'd go for the 650 and spend the difference on mods to tailor the bike to your liking. I've seen a few of these 650's around and they give off quite a nice sound and have enough power for most situations (especially as it's naked and therefore better suited to legal-ish speeds).

Plus it's got ABS (although some don't like that) and is lighter.

Z800 has good reviews as well though, don't think you can go wrong with either bike (or the MT-09).

[RubberSideDown]

You could probably steal a 2013 Z1000 for close to the price of a new Z800- I see them for sale all the time on the Thai FB bike sites. Prices are really dropping on used bikes, and there are a lot of 'motivated sellers'.

Edited February 23, 2015 by RubberSideDown

[ll2]

You could probably steal a 2013 Z1000 for close to the price of a new Z800- I see them for sale all the time on the Thai FB bike sites. Prices are really dropping on used bikes, and there are a lot of 'motivated sellers'.

yep.

seen one going for 370 k thb! at 24 k km but looks nice and clean with lots of mods and it is lighter and more powerful than a z800

[guzzi850m2]

I see loads of Z800 in Pattaya, not so many CB650's.

Thais normally want as much bang for the buck as possible so many choose the Zed, don't think they care too much about ABS.

I haven't tried either bike so I cannot give you any recommendations which of the 2 bikes to get, it all depends how experienced you are and if you can live without ABS.

Now you tried the Zed and liked it, so suggest you see it you can try a CBR650 and then make up your mind.

This can off-course turn into an underwhelming experience since the Zed got what 112hp? and the CBR 85hp.

HP is not everything, much depends what you will use the bike for.

[bealus]

IMO z800 is more aggressive looking but too heavy.

CB650f is also nice looking bike and a more comfortable ride for longer journeys ( if your not an "inner city hooligan type")

Sure am not the "inner city hooligan type" , altough I must admit I was impressed with the HP and Torque of the Z800

[bealus]

The z800 might be more powerfull and agressive but it is not a good commuter. My bottom hurts after 1 hour of riding it , its very heavy and and tall (im 186cm). I wish it had ABS.

You feel alot of vibrations on the pegs while riding it at high rpm. But it is surprisingly agile when you drive over 20 km/h and again, the power is very good. Suspension setup is good

Just my review of 6 months ownership and 2700 km riding (weekend rider)

Will be selling it soon and get myself a sport bike since i prefer more wind protection and do not use the bike everyday.

I only tried the cb650f at the honda test ride course and it was ok. very smooth gearbox but i don't like the styling very much

The z800 has a smoother engine imo. you can ride it in 6th gear @ 30km/h and it runs perfectly smooth and pulls well

At the end it's up to you

I'd consider the the FZ-09 aswell. Its very fun bike but abit pricey @ 435k baht

Thanks for sharing your actual driving experience on the Z800; very useful to hear it first hand from someone owning the bike and reviewing its pro and cons. Yes to me the engine appears to be smooth too and has a lot of oomp going on. Maybe I overvalued the bike engine wise, whilst neglecting the comfort of riding it long distance. I agree with you about the FZ-09, but it would exceed my

financial resources at the moment; they don't come cheap(fair enough looking at the build quality)second hand too. Altough I would drive it say 80% commuter wise, I keep in mind that for driving longer distances it's not that comfortable and lacks ABS.

[bealus]

Economically wise, go for the CBR650F, it's got enough power to Thailand roads, it's comfortable and got will have cheap maintenance. it has a really smooth gear box. You can sell it easily too if you decide to change.

oh, it has ABS, which can be really helpful sometimes. you can also upgrade it with some awesome tires and ohlins suspension.

I expect too selling the Z800 would be a bigger problem than the CB 650 F, and as the Honda comes somewhat cheaper Ohlins and an Akrapovic exhaust would be tempting

[bealus]

Both good bikes. I was quite tempted to buy a Z800. I haven't ridden either (I don't count riding round in the Kawa Rama 9 car park, although I also didn't think the weight is that noticeable). 375K is a good price. Not having ABS is a good point.

I bought an FZ09 which is great both in the city and for shortish rides outside. Stock suspension is poor but can be fixed easily enough (at more cost though of course). Torque delivery is amazing. Again no ABS.

If your budget is less than 400K and you want a naked bike Z800 and CB650 are good choices. If you can spend a bit more then I'd also seriously consider Street Triple R. If they hadn't still been 750K when I bought the Yam then I would have bought one.

If you're into modding then any Thai produced bike will offer plenty of options. I've seen some really nice looking modded 800s (eg this one which I saw just this weekend - took the pic for a friend who's thinking of getting one).

IMG_4519.JPG

Congrats on the FZ-09, great looking and performing bike. Unfortunately my budget has to stay in the 375 K region. Read reviews about the Street Triple R,; general opinion was best in class regarding rideability and versatility. Your attached picture sure is a nice example of a modded 800, would like to see this one next to a CB 650 in metallic black!

[bealus]

i say cb650f.

it is nearly 90 k cheaper than z800 and on top has ABS.

z800 has a very heavy chassis with a rubber mounted engine. It means it will not be super dynamic and it is very heavy at 230 kg. Sure you dont feel that weight when the bike is rolling but when parking, moving bike around or low speed rides, u turns, you sure feel that weight. It also feel top heavy too. it is smooth though and engine is good although a bit old tech.

Overall z800 is old tech IMO.

cb650f is also a modern iteration of honda's old bikes IMO. It feel like a bike from 10 years ago but dynamically it is more advanced than z800.

cb650f is a good choice in Thailand. i use a cbr650f and it never missed a beat for 22 k kms. No problems at all and it is quite sporty and fun.

First time I hear about the Z800 having old tech; I believe this model was launched in 2013. But maybe engine or frame wise it was cannibalised from previous models? Can you substantiate this?

22 k kms without problems, that's still the Honda quality and standard. I heard Honda would come out in the later part of this year with a new version of the Hornet and the 650 F is an in-between.

The new Hornet woukld have upgraded specs and naturally an upgraded price

[bealus]

OP, when I started looking for a new bike, z800 was one of the considerations, it actually was the very 1st bike on my list.

I didn't look at 650 then as at the time there were no choices in 650cc other than Ninja or ER6n. I knew I wouldn't be happy with 650cc, I would outgrow it too fast, it wouldn't be fun to ride any longer and I would be looking for an upgrade soon after. So I decided on 800cc+

My second choice was a Ducati Monster 796.

While I didn't test z800, I test rode the Monster. Even though the demo bike was a bit of a lemon, the bike was amazing! It got crazy power and incredibly light and agile.

I also considered a few other bikes like BMW F800-R and the FZ-09.

For safety reasons I decided to go with ABS bikes so z800 was out (it was also the heaviest of the bunch), as well as FZ-09.

BMW was very comfortable to sit on (didn't test it) and overall it looked very solid and well built, but it is ugly as hell.

Monster 796 is now discontinued but still being widely sold in Thailand.

Didn't want to get an outdated model and Ducati Thailand had no near future plans for the Monster 821, so Monster was out too.

Ended up getting a Diavel. Don't think I'll want to upgrade any time soon but also I won't enjoy riding anything with less balls, the power is addictive!

P.S. I suggest you go and try a Monster 796, you may like it.

Wow the Diavel is a class of its own, I'll be looking at your tail-light I suppose no matter whether I ride the Z800 or CB 650 F. Many friends tell me about the quality of the Ducati build bikes, but

in my case it would have to be a second hand one

[Phra Ek]

OP, when I started looking for a new bike, z800 was one of the considerations, it actually was the very 1st bike on my list.

I didn't look at 650 then as at the time there were no choices in 650cc other than Ninja or ER6n. I knew I wouldn't be happy with 650cc, I would outgrow it too fast, it wouldn't be fun to ride any longer and I would be looking for an upgrade soon after. So I decided on 800cc+

My second choice was a Ducati Monster 796.

While I didn't test z800, I test rode the Monster. Even though the demo bike was a bit of a lemon, the bike was amazing! It got crazy power and incredibly light and agile.

I also considered a few other bikes like BMW F800-R and the FZ-09.

For safety reasons I decided to go with ABS bikes so z800 was out (it was also the heaviest of the bunch), as well as FZ-09.

BMW was very comfortable to sit on (didn't test it) and overall it looked very solid and well built, but it is ugly as hell.

Monster 796 is now discontinued but still being widely sold in Thailand.

Didn't want to get an outdated model and Ducati Thailand had no near future plans for the Monster 821, so Monster was out too.

Ended up getting a Diavel. Don't think I'll want to upgrade any time soon but also I won't enjoy riding anything with less balls, the power is addictive!

P.S. I suggest you go and try a Monster 796, you may like it.

Wow the Diavel is a class of its own, I'll be looking at your tail-light I suppose no matter whether I ride the Z800 or CB 650 F. Many friends tell me about the quality of the Ducati build bikes, but

in my case it would have to be a second hand one

Or look at the locally made Ducati Scrambler and save on the tax?

[bealus]

For me personally between CB650F and Z800 it would be the Honda. Z800 got more oomph (noticeable) but it's heavier, and for me the killer no ABS. The CB650F is plenty comfy (I did 800km in one go on it). I prefer the styling of the Z800 as it's aggressive but the CB is not ugly either.

If you ride a lot and for a bit longer or if you value ABS, there is a pretty clear winner. If you do short rides and want to be more of a hooligan, get the Z800.

If you have a bit more cash be sure to check out the Street Triple or MT-09 but their dealer networks are lacking.

Regarding the Monster: end of the year Ducati will bring the current Monster 821 to Thailand which is a big upgrade from the 796. But now you are in 450-500k THB territory.

At about the same price as the Z800 you can also get the new Scrambler if you like this kind of styling. Or are you set on a inline 4 engine?

What's your budget and what's your intended riding?

Well on the financial site the Z800 at about 375 K would be my limit and I guess I would use the bike 80% commuter wise and 20% longer distance trips. Other members also stated that the Honda is far more comfy to ride on longer distances and no I don't want to be the local biker hooligan. The CB 650 F has, as already mentioned, advantages over the Z800: considerable lower price and weight, ABS and more comfortable to ride on day or even week trips. If the Z800 only did'nt have that 100+ HP and class leading torque at relatively low revs. I'm not interested in topspeed and Thai road and traffic conditions make this obsolete anyway, but I admit I like a 0-60 sprint.....

[bealus]

...

Regarding the Monster: end of the year Ducati will bring the current Monster 821 to Thailand which is a big upgrade from the 796. But now you are in 450-500k THB territory.

At about the same price as the Z800 you can also get the new Scrambler if you like this kind of styling. Or are you set on a inline 4 engine?

What's your budget and what's your intended riding?

If he's not set on 4 inline and a little flexible on how much he wants to spend, there will be a few more choices for him from the 2 mentioned in the OP.

Monster 796 is a good bike and simple tech makes it reliable, I haven't read anything bad about them when doing my research.

796 is about 75K THB more than z800 but comes with ABS and weights 100 lbs less. On paper z800 has a little more power but it's all lost due to its extra weight is has to push. Surely the 821 will be in 500K range but more power and it's water cooled and a little heavier.

CB 650 is a good choice if he's happy with styling and power.

I'd suggest to go try them all, decide whether ABS is important or not and decide on your budget. For me it would come to the safety features (ABS) and price.

Good luck.

Tomorrow I testride the CB 650 F(and hope it's not only curving around on the parking lot). The CB 650 F in metallic black does appeal to me. True the Z800 has more HP and torque, bus is also more heavy in weight so this advantage gets (partially) "eaten"

[ll2]

For me personally between CB650F and Z800 it would be the Honda. Z800 got more oomph (noticeable) but it's heavier, and for me the killer no ABS. The CB650F is plenty comfy (I did 800km in one go on it). I prefer the styling of the Z800 as it's aggressive but the CB is not ugly either.

If you ride a lot and for a bit longer or if you value ABS, there is a pretty clear winner. If you do short rides and want to be more of a hooligan, get the Z800.

If you have a bit more cash be sure to check out the Street Triple or MT-09 but their dealer networks are lacking.

Regarding the Monster: end of the year Ducati will bring the current Monster 821 to Thailand which is a big upgrade from the 796. But now you are in 450-500k THB territory.

At about the same price as the Z800 you can also get the new Scrambler if you like this kind of styling. Or are you set on a inline 4 engine?

What's your budget and what's your intended riding?

Well on the financial site the Z800 at about 375 K would be my limit and I guess I would use the bike 80% commuter wise and 20% longer distance trips. Other members also stated that the Honda is far more comfy to ride on longer distances and no I don't want to be the local biker hooligan. The CB 650 F has, as already mentioned, advantages over the Z800: considerable lower price and weight, ABS and more comfortable to ride on day or even week trips. If the Z800 only did'nt have that 100+ HP and class leading torque at relatively low revs. I'm not interested in topspeed and Thai road and traffic conditions make this obsolete anyway, but I admit I like a 0-60 sprint.....

with the low down torque of 650 honda, i am sure you never miss z800.

plus add a full system exhaust, an aftermarket air filer and a dynojet pc5 suddenly you have a 100 hp bike.

with 100 k you save, you can get these for 40 k, a set of pirellis and ohlins shock for 30 k and still you have money left for service for 50 k kmh and you have a bike better than z800 dynamically and nearly closer in performance.

[bealus]

You could probably steal a 2013 Z1000 for close to the price of a new Z800- I see them for sale all the time on the Thai FB bike sites. Prices are really dropping on used bikes, and there are a lot of 'motivated sellers'.

Call me old-fashioned but I don't use FB, but do of course pay attention to the more regular known sites with classified ads. But as my Thai wife is a frequent FB-user(anyone know of a Thai lady who is'nt?), I let her dive in to the FB bike sites. Thanks for the suggestion mate