Injuries

[Gweiloman]

Seeing how the forum is really slow nowadays due to recent desertions to other bike forums, I thought I'd start a new topic for the fun of it.

Read this post on another thread

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/816888-briton-allegedly-hits-and-kills-thai-motorcyclist/?p=9299841

Motorcyclist was travelling in the right hand lane of a 4 lane highway when a trailer truck cut over from the extreme far left lane to do a u-turn. Injuries were quite severe (see post referred to above).

Questions and thoughts:

- was he wearing a helmet? If so, how could the head injuries be sustained?

- experienced riders in Thailand would know that trailer trucks and other big vehicles would initiate a u-turn from the left lanes in order to make it round the u-turn. Is the rider an experienced rider?

- trailer trucks take an age to make an u-turn. As the rider was overtaking the truck at that time, at what speed would he be doing that the truck can still cut in front of him?

- based on the protective gear that the rider was wearing (T-shirt, shorts and sandals), what sort of bike was he riding and should he have been on the far right lane?

Undoubtedly, some would just say, why not ask the rider himself directly. I could do that, but thought it would be more fun to have a discussion here as some of my "followers" are eagerly awaiting my posts.

But in reality, this could be an useful thread about safety gear, safe riding, safe speeds and safe bikes (ABS, better stopping distances, better acceleration......)

[lust]

Speculate about something we know nothing about? You want to to talk bikes or be a detective

[CharlieH]

"was he wearing a helmet? If so, how could the head injuries be sustained?"

Because the majority of helmets in Thailand are not much better than a margarine tub !

[RubberSideDown]

I don't want to speculate on an active member's situation and he can chime in himself if he likes, but I do wonder about one thing- even if I'm 100% at fault (as far as cause) in an accident where I hit a bike and the rider sustains similar injuries to the ones in the OP, what's my liability if the rider wasn't properly geared-up and the injuries in question could have been diminished or avoided entirely? What's the rider's responsibility as far as personal protection goes? Yes, Tesco plastic helmets are worthless as noted above, but that's common knowledge- if you choose to wear that type of helmet (or no helmet) and are hurt worse than you would have been (had you worn higher-quality gear) due to equipment failure or absence or of it being of inferior quality, am I still fully liable for compensation for your injuries?

If I hit a rider that wasn't wearing a helmet or was wearing a useless one and he sustained a preventable (with better equipment) head injury, I would expect my lawyer to argue that the rider himself bears some responsibility for his condition as there's a legal requirement that he be geared-up to at least a minimum standard, and a moral obligation to accept the consequences of the protection standard you deem sufficient.

This isn't a 'wear a quality helmet' rant (while I think you should, I don't really care if you don't, though I'll argue the point as to my reasons why I believe it's a good idea), but, rather, riders understanding that their injuries might not be entirely the fault of the person who may have caused their accident.

Edited April 14, 2015 by RubberSideDown

[AllanB]

For me this is a wake up call to reinforce one of the dangers of biking, just how important mirrors are and how bad mine are. I need to get up of my Songkran arse and get them changed, instead of looking at my shoulders all the time.

I think it is completely pointless attributing blame after the event, using webcams ha ha, how is it going to change anything? Truck drivers have a job to do, with or without Yaba, or booze and as a biker you are of NO importance. Meaning, you have to look after yourself...or this may happen.

Thanks for that GW....oh as for the helmet issue, is a helmet that important when you get hit by something that size? Refer Hammond's helmet in Top Gear Vietnam.

[RubberSideDown]

^

Did you click on the link? The rider in question posted a picture of his injury, which was to his forehead- it's is an area that's protected by the type of helmet I choose to wear, and it's an injury that would have been lessened or avoided entirely by a proper helmet. The answer to your question is obviously 'yes'.

[DILLIGAD]

Was the helmet fixed/ done up. I have NEVER seen a policeman wearing an adequately secured helmet. Have you?

[AllanB]

^

Did you click on the link? The rider in question posted a picture of his injury, which was to his forehead- it's is an area that's protected by the type of helmet I choose to wear, and it's an injury that would have been lessened or avoided entirely by a proper helmet. The answer to your question is obviously 'yes'.

Yes I did and perhaps you are right, I am no expert in that field of analysis, the point I am making is about the importance of mirrors as I wouldn't want to test my helmet to find out.

All the scary moments I have had in my 7 years over here have been from vehicles behind me and I have found it very difficult to find decent mirrors here, especially in their positions on the bike. The stems are always too short, I don't have "Arni" shoulders but half of what I see is myself, meaning I have look around myself to get a good rear view. Result, most of my peripheral vision related to the rear is lost.

As a car driver I use my mirrors a lot and it is especially important on a bike to keep me clear of these people before they get right up my arse and pose a threat. And unlike some here I am not prepared to ride faster than everyone else just in case......

[RubberSideDown]

Do you need to be an expert to understand that being protected in the area of impact will lessen or eliminate the severity of an impact? Do you need to be a great chef to know you're eating a rotten egg?

Obviously mirrors are important- anything that can increase your field-of-vision is important- the incident in question involved a truck turning in front of the rider, though- mirrors weren't a factor in the accident in question.

No one wants to 'test their helmet'- if you do indeed have to put it to the test, though, what sort of helmet would you prefer to be wearing?

[macknife]

^

Did you click on the link? The rider in question posted a picture of his injury, which was to his forehead- it's is an area that's protected by the type of helmet I choose to wear, and it's an injury that would have been lessened or avoided entirely by a proper helmet. The answer to your question is obviously 'yes'.

I agree, if this rider had been wearing any half decent full face helmet his injury would be far less.

I also agree with the judge. After reading the riders description of events, I believe he is equally to blame. It takes a long long time for a truck pulling two trailers to make a U-turn, just because he(the rider) wasn't looking or paying attention doesn't make the truck driver at fault. Yes trucks don't really do this in the western world but they do here and any experienced rider of Thai roads would have seen the possible situation that was about to happen.

[papa al]

For me this is a wake up call to reinforce one of the dangers of biking, just how important mirrors are and how bad mine are. I need to get up of my Songkran arse and get them changed, instead of looking at my shoulders all the time.

I think it is completely pointless attributing blame after the event, using webcams ha ha, how is it going to change anything? Truck drivers have a job to do, with or without Yaba, or booze and as a biker you are of NO importance. Meaning, you have to look after yourself...or this may happen.

Thanks for that GW....oh as for the helmet issue, is a helmet that important when you get hit by something that size? Refer Hammond's helmet in Top Gear Vietnam.

I had a welding shop extend my left handlebar mounted mirror by 5cm.

Good, good, great.

OP: "Farang pay all."

[Gweiloman]

^

Did you click on the link? The rider in question posted a picture of his injury, which was to his forehead- it's is an area that's protected by the type of helmet I choose to wear, and it's an injury that would have been lessened or avoided entirely by a proper helmet. The answer to your question is obviously 'yes'.

Yes I did and perhaps you are right, I am no expert in that field of analysis, the point I am making is about the importance of mirrors as I wouldn't want to test my helmet to find out.

All the scary moments I have had in my 7 years over here have been from vehicles behind me and I have found it very difficult to find decent mirrors here, especially in their positions on the bike. The stems are always too short, I don't have "Arni" shoulders but half of what I see is myself, meaning I have look around myself to get a good rear view. Result, most of my peripheral vision related to the rear is lost.

As a car driver I use my mirrors a lot and it is especially important on a bike to keep me clear of these people before they get right up my arse and pose a threat. And unlike some here I am not prepared to ride faster than everyone else just in case......

As RSD has pointed out, it was the rider that hit the truck trailer and not the other way round. Having said that, assuming you get hit from behind by another vehicle. Chances are that you would fly through the air for some distance and there is the possibility on knocking your head on the asphalt upon landing. Thus, a helmet is obviously needed.

With regards to mirrors, a quick google search will turn up lots of options for extenders.

And finally with regards to your last sentence..... one way to stay safe on a bike is to use it's power and acceleration to remove yourself from danger. But the choice is up to you of course.

[nzexpat]

I was hit from behind by a hit and run driver.

I sustained a serious injury to my shoulder which has resulted in the upper part of my humorous being replaced with a metal/plastic prosthesis.

My seriously "proper" helmet was damaged with deep scars from the road and has been replaced.

Always wear the best possible helmet it may save your life!

[nikster]

I was hit from behind by a hit and run driver.

I sustained a serious injury to my shoulder which has resulted in the upper part of my humorous being replaced with a metal/plastic prosthesis.

My seriously "proper" helmet was damaged with deep scars from the road and has been replaced.

Always wear the best possible helmet it may save your life!

That is one of the very few situations where I'd say you were 100% not at fault. I often look behind me if going on a slower vehicle for that reason, but I am aware that I can't watch my back all the time either. If somebody hits me from behind chances are there's nothing I could do to prevent it. It's a reason I like big bikes better, I stay ahead of traffic.

The accident referred to in the OP - the rider should have worn a proper helmet, then he'd be largely OK now. The rider also should have noticed the U-Turn that truck was pulling. I know this maneuver very well. It is risky, it is dangerous, and trucks specifically don't bother to look in their mirrors when doing it. But - it is something that happens all the time in Thailand, and something we need to be prepared for, and something you need to anticipate. If you don't anticipate somebody doing something utterly stupid at a U-turn, it's your own fault.

I once clipped an old guy on an ancient Honda Dream creeping across 3 lanes to do a U-turn - he had signals but they were too weak to see. I only had some fairing damage and he only had a few scratches. It was a great lesson for me though to (A) never hurry and to ( B ) watch out for U-Turns and all the various vehicles using various unsafe ways to get across the lanes. This one I felt was 100% my fault because I should have noticed him in time to avoid / brake, and I shouldn't have hurried home (I was trying to beat the rain - stupid).

So the sad outcome is that the rider in the OP still believes that he wasn't at fault. That's a missed opportunity for learning right there. Despite having gotten the short end of the stick in this one, he most certainly was as fault at least as much as the truck driver. Must have had a good lawyer to get anything out of this.

Edited April 15, 2015 by nikster

[JonnyF]

Another point on the mirrors, I use the round "blind spot" mirrors on all my bikes. Just stick them on a portion of the existing mirror, allows you to keep the shorter stock mirrors but the convex mirror allows you to see a much wider angle way past your shoulders and quite a distance behind. Takes a while to get tuned into the slightly odd view and learn to read the distance but once you're used to it they are great.

[Gweiloman]

Apart from the deep gash on his forehead which a "proper" helmet might have helped prevent, would a helmet have also helped with his other facial injuries? Eyes etc

Edited April 15, 2015 by Gweiloman

[RubberSideDown]

A quality helmet would likely have helped decrease the severity of the nerve damage he suffered (black eyes were going to happen either way, but that's not a serious injury)- he mentioned a neck injury, and that may or may not have been lessened by a decent helmet- the gash looks like it's from being dragged as well blunt trauma, and that may have caused twisting that could have been decreased by a helmet's ability to slide- it may have been inevitable, though.

[Shurup]

2 things come to mind, piss poor quality helmet and the total lack of awareness. Those big trucks don't make a split second U-turns, it takes a long time to execute that maneuver and had the IP (injured person) been aware of what was going on around him, he would have stopped or avoided the accident.

Many still have this Western mentality, "I'm doing it right so if something goes wrong it's not my fault". Who cares whose fault is it it your'e dead or paralyzed? It also not the US of A and you can't expect to win a multi-million dollar settlement and leave happily ever after (without a leg or in a wheelchair or ....).

[Happy Grumpy]

For me this is a wake up call to reinforce one of the dangers of biking, just how important mirrors are and how bad mine are. I need to get up of my Songkran arse and get them changed, instead of looking at my shoulders all the time.

No matter what mirrors you have, you still always turn your head when turning or changing lanes.

A pretty simple basic rule, and for good reasons.

[Gweiloman]

For me this is a wake up call to reinforce one of the dangers of biking, just how important mirrors are and how bad mine are. I need to get up of my Songkran arse and get them changed, instead of looking at my shoulders all the time.

No matter what mirrors you have, you still always turn your head when turning or changing lanes.

A pretty simple basic rule, and for good reasons.

Yeah, commonly known as a lifesaver

[Rhys]

Well a call to always be alert...what is that saying expect nothing but be prepared for everything... Takes the fun out of riding... yet this mantra could one day save your life.

[AllanB]

Well a call to always be alert...what is that saying expect nothing but be prepared for everything... Takes the fun out of riding... yet this mantra could one day save your life.

If you think it is fun to take risks around these things, go for it mate. The fun I get from riding is being out in the fresh air, not dueling with things much bigger than me. When I encounter traffic, yes I am 100% alert to everything, I know "might is right" and this thread further brings that home to me.

This is a resurrection of a well argued thread, so why not argue the case for not taking on a big rig like this in the first place, instead of speculating what helmet would have done what? Otherwise we could go through all the old threads and just repeat.

I get cut up every single day in Thailand, it is a way of life and protestation is a waste of time here, though I still do it from time to time. But knowing all that makes me alert and safe®, not thinking that I have top gear on and will probably be okay when I get creamed. To me that means I have to choose my accident.

Hence the need for decent mirrors and anything else that will help me avoid a crash, like this or any other.

I am not saying it is wrong wearing top gear, especially when you like taking risks and enjoying that particular part of biking, just not my thing, that's all.

[Gweiloman]

Well a call to always be alert...what is that saying expect nothing but be prepared for everything... Takes the fun out of riding... yet this mantra could one day save your life.

If you think it is fun to take risks around these things, go for it mate. The fun I get from riding is being out in the fresh air, not dueling with things much bigger than me. When I encounter traffic, yes I am 100% alert to everything, I know "might is right" and this thread further brings that home to me.

This is a resurrection of a well argued thread, so why not argue the case for not taking on a big rig like this in the first place, instead of speculating what helmet would have done what? Otherwise we could go through all the old threads and just repeat.

I get cut up every single day in Thailand, it is a way of life and protestation is a waste of time here, though I still do it from time to time. But knowing all that makes me alert and safe®, not thinking that I have top gear on and will probably be okay when I get creamed. To me that means I have to choose my accident.

Hence the need for decent mirrors and anything else that will help me avoid a crash, like this or any other.

I am not saying it is wrong wearing top gear, especially when you like taking risks and enjoying that particular part of biking, just not my thing, that's all.

Seems to me like you completely misread Rhys's post. He is calling everybody to always be on the alert even though it might take some of the fun out of riding.

This thread primarily focuses on one particular accident of sadly we know very little about. However through deductive reasoning, certain assumptions can be made such as:

- rider was not wearing a helmet or if he was, it was fitted properly

- rider was not alert enough to anticipate that the truck trailer would make a u turn; remember, he was on the rightmost lane of a 4 laned highway whilst the truck trailer was on the leftmost lane.

- rider was also overtaking the truck trailer at that time and strange that he wasn't able to complete the overtaking; could be that he was dawdling along or that his bike did not have sufficient power (in either case he definitely shouldn't be on the right lane)

- looking at how the rider was attired (T-shirt, shorts, sandals), I would say that he was probably on a scoot as opposed to a big bike

The above encompasses some of the earlier threads such as "are big bikes safer", "safe riding speed", "safety gear" etc.

But knowing all that makes me alert and safe®, not thinking that I have top gear on and will probably be okay when I get creamed

This is an interesting comment but I'm not sure if I understand it completely. Are you saying that for some, having the top gear on would make them less alert and less safe®?

[BSJ]

"Seeing how the forum is really slow nowadays due to recent desertions to other bike forums" Not a strong reason to start a tread.....but it'll do!

[wow64]

Gear up when riding and helmet cam also for insurance.

Feel for the guy.. but full face helmet and some riding gear may have saved some injuries.. not all some. Also a helmet cam would have helped for the court case.

Hope he is ok.