Poll: Wasted resource -- Expats retired in Thailand, volunteer work, and work permits

[Jingthing]

I reckon that Thailand is wasting a huge HUMAN RESOURCE, just throwing it down the drain, by instead of encouraging retired foreign expats to get involved in their Thai communities with volunteer, they put up scary and difficult ROAD BLOCKS in the form of work permit rules.

More retired expats doing volunteer work would be good for both Thailand AND the expats.

I thought of this reading this link from a country which encourages and benefits from volunteer work from retired expats, Ecuador:

http://cuencahighlife.com/what-cuencanos-say-about-expats-a-follow-up-they-support-the-culture-improve-the-restaurant-scene-bring-more-business-but-need-to-learn-spanish/

Many expats participate in volunteer activities that help the community, either through non-profit organizations, churches or private initiatives. They help in such causes as providing meals to poor school children and offering companionship to orphans. A friend who works with a domestic violence program says gringos have been a god-send to her center.

So here is a poll to explore this question.

Yes I fully acknowledge the structure of this poll is unusually awkward and/or none of the answers may work for you.

Don't worry -- it's not intended to be any kind of scientific poll. Only a springboard for discussion of this issue.

Please do not post to complain about the flawed structure of the poll.

It's not about the poll.

It's about the issue.

[NeverSure]

Great question JT.

I did a null vote, because I'm not an expat. However, when I come to Thailand I teach English in a village school in Isaan which has never had an NES. The first time it was just a couple of days and last time it was a couple of weeks.

The Thai lady who is my friend is the school English teacher and I would never say "no." I have also really improved her skills via regular emails, and verbally when I'm there. She asks for the help.

BTW I'm not a real teacher, just an NES but I'm a heck of a lot better than nothing. At least I can pronounce the words which this Thai teacher can't. The students now mostly learn writing.

Cheers

[Berkshire]

If a "volunteer visa/work permit" was ever introduced, it would be massively abused. People with no intention of doing volunteer work would come in droves. There would be company after company providing volunteer visa/work permits for a fee. It would be an unmanageable mess. True NGOs who would try to do it legally would find it an administrative nightmare and probably couldn't afford it.

Having said that, I know quite a few expats already doing volunteer work. They give their free time and genuinely want to help and continue to do so. The authorities will not be going after those folks.

[Soutpeel]

If a "volunteer visa/work permit" was ever introduced, it would be massively abused. People with no intention of doing volunteer work would come in droves. There would be company after company providing volunteer visa/work permits for a fee. It would be an unmanageable mess. True NGOs who would try to do it legally would find it an administrative nightmare and probably couldn't afford it.

Having said that, I know quite a few expats already doing volunteer work. They give their free time and genuinely want to help and continue to do so. The authorities will not be going after those folks.

the easiest solution to this one in, is that a volunteers "WP" could be only issued against an existing extension of stay be it for retirement or married persons, there would be no "volunteer visa" and the condition of issue is that if any gets caught being paid for their "volunteering" they would lose both their "WP" and extension of stay.

Going the above route would ensure persons volunteering where already in Thailand for legitimate reasons

[Crazy chef 1]

If proper checked on it would be a great benefit...just worried about Paedos....

[simon43]

...and offering companionship to orphans

...

If proper checked on it would be a great benefit...just worried about Paedos..

@Crazy Chef1, you should be OK, I think you are probably too old to pique their interest...

Seriously,so long as their is a suitable background/criminal check process in place, there is no reason why anyone vulnerable should be put at risk.

In my case, I do volunteer work as a TPV, for which it is claimed (by the TP) that no WP is required. Certainly, in 10 years of doing this volunteer work, I have never had any problems.

Don't think working as a TPV is all about doing traffic checks and extorting money from tourists. I have never done either, (although I am sure some TPVs have!).

I interpret my role as a TPV as being there to assist foreign tourists, not just there for photo-shoots. So I have some 50 or so hotels 'under my wing' in my area, which I visit regularly, check with the staff that no tourists have issues, provide multi-language leaflets about rip currents and do's and don'ts, take tourists to/from the police station to file lost property reports, accompany them to hospital to help to translate, translate for tourists who have some issue when buying in local shops etc.- the list is endless.

,

Edited April 24, 2015 by simon43

[alant]

If a "volunteer visa/work permit" was ever introduced, it would be massively abused. People with no intention of doing volunteer work would come in droves. There would be company after company providing volunteer visa/work permits for a fee. It would be an unmanageable mess. True NGOs who would try to do it legally would find it an administrative nightmare and probably couldn't afford it.

Having said that, I know quite a few expats already doing volunteer work. They give their free time and genuinely want to help and continue to do so. The authorities will not be going after those folks.

" The authorities will not be going after those folks."

The problem is they can and if someone for whatever reason takes a dislike to you it could be used against you and lead to some very harsh penalties.

[Berkshire]

If a "volunteer visa/work permit" was ever introduced, it would be massively abused. People with no intention of doing volunteer work would come in droves. There would be company after company providing volunteer visa/work permits for a fee. It would be an unmanageable mess. True NGOs who would try to do it legally would find it an administrative nightmare and probably couldn't afford it.

Having said that, I know quite a few expats already doing volunteer work. They give their free time and genuinely want to help and continue to do so. The authorities will not be going after those folks.

the easiest solution to this one in, is that a volunteers "WP" could be only issued against an existing extension of stay be it for retirement or married persons, there would be no "volunteer visa" and the condition of issue is that if any gets caught being paid for their "volunteering" they would lose both their "WP" and extension of stay.

Going the above route would ensure persons volunteering where already in Thailand for legitimate reasons

Sure, that would make sense. Could prevent some abuse of the system. On the other hand, it would require some effort from the organization such as background checks, verification of qualifications, etc., and of course, work permits cost money.

As I said, I know expats already doing volunteer work. They come and go as they please and help where they can. They're not obligated to "work" certain hours and can certainly quit any time. Now imagine if I was an NGO and went through all the trouble of getting someone a work permit. I would certainly expect that person to commit to a certain degree. Structured hours and work schedule. No more of this "coming and going as they please" sort of thing. Essentially, they would be working for me for free. Are expats willing to adhere to that level of commitment? For no pay?

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade. But as always, there are unintended consequences. I can think of a few more, but I'll let it go for now.

[Berkshire]

If a "volunteer visa/work permit" was ever introduced, it would be massively abused. People with no intention of doing volunteer work would come in droves. There would be company after company providing volunteer visa/work permits for a fee. It would be an unmanageable mess. True NGOs who would try to do it legally would find it an administrative nightmare and probably couldn't afford it.

Having said that, I know quite a few expats already doing volunteer work. They give their free time and genuinely want to help and continue to do so. The authorities will not be going after those folks.

" The authorities will not be going after those folks."

The problem is they can and if someone for whatever reason takes a dislike to you it could be used against you and lead to some very harsh penalties.

Possible...although I've never heard of a retired expat who was arrested or deported or fined for doing legitimate volunteer work.

[isanbirder]

I agree in principle, but I had to put a null vote as I didn't agree with any of your alternatives!

I think the issue could probably be much simpler,

"Expats living in Thailand on a retirement visa extension should be allowed to do voluntary work."

No need for work permits; the control is already there with the visa.

Edited April 24, 2015 by isanbirder

[samran]

You've got an interior minister who is shaking up somewhat the processes to have a modicum more common sense. He's just exempted a range of activities that don't require work permits.

Make a representation. People do all the time. Just make sure you have a solution.

[Harveyg]

You of course bring up something that bothers me also.

I'm still teaching with a work permit and don't know the issues of volunteering, but I can guess the hoops involved. When I think of back home (US) I think the same thing. Older folks and their incredible experience is not encouraged sufficiently. If I had a say Id be making it as flexible, inviting and acknowledged as I could.

Way better than a wai....

[Just1Voice]

I have a Masters in English Composition & Creative Writing. In the past 7 years I have taught English to 1 lawyer, 3 police, 4 CMU students, 5 BK Bank employees, and a few others. All were taught in my home, and all were taught for free. That's the only way I will do it. I am happy to help, or teach, anyone who is serious about learning. I try to make it fun for them, and relevant to them.

But as far as going out and doing volunteer work, no thanks. Too many "regulations", and other b.s. to put up with.

[Kerryd]

They could also restrict the type of volunteer work that would qualify as well so that "volunteering" to work in the wife's shop, or "volunteering" to run buddy's bar while he's on vacation, or "volunteering" to manage a construction project (etc, etc) would not be allowed.

Then they could make a set of regulations governing Volunteer Work. Perhaps including clauses like:

a) Volunteers must be on a 1 year visa category (Work, marriage, retirement, education, etc).

b.) Volunteers (and/or their families) may not be compensated for their services in any manner.

c) Volunteers may only work for approved organizations, registered as such with the Ministry of Labour.

d) Approved organizations shall not replace paid employees with volunteers, nor eliminate paid positions in order to replace them with volunteers.

I think that is one of the biggest issues that Thailand is concerned about (as far as "volunteers" are concerned), is that various organizations will use them to replace paid workers, thus making the unemployment situation even worse.

And before you start, remember that it wouldn't only be "retired white guys" that would be doing volunteer work.

If they relaxed the rules on volunteer work without having some strict guidelines in place I"m sure it would be a matter of days before 75% of the Cambodians, Burmese, Nigerians and others already working in the country would suddenly be "volunteers" as well, especially if being a "volunteer" came with a piece of paper saying you could stay in the country while doing that "volunteer" work. (You just know it would be abused in a heartbeat.)

I'd love to do some volunteer work myself but my biggest worry is that the second I move a sandbag, or pick up some garbage, or grab a shovel, I'll be accused of working illegally and bing, bam, boom I'm suddenly having to find a new country to live in. Maybe it doesn't happen often but I'm not really aching to be the one they decide to make an example of.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Kerryd

[neeray]

Most people of retired age possess a wealth of skills. In Canada, we call this grey power. These skills could be so valuable to Thailand. Too bad that they can not be more readily accepted. Like another TVF member said, both the expat and Thailand would benefit.

[Alfred Gruetzner]

My opinion for beeing in Thailand:

As a tourist, I enjoy life here.

As a not yet retiree: I apply for a proper work permit or I leave the kingdom.

As a retired resident here: I care for myself and my next surrounding, I learn Thai as much as I can and want, I let the Thai people do things as they want to do it, used to do it and I don't interfere in their business.I give good advice if I am asked for or I shut up. I am polite, quiet and friendly to everyone.

[realenglish1]

I have been expounding this for more than 2 years now. The general should stand up and take notice amend the rules to allow for expats to help in their community Everyone wins with this

[Soutpeel]

I agree in principle, but I had to put a null vote as I didn't agree with any of your alternatives!

I think the issue could probably be much simpler,

"Expats living in Thailand on a retirement visa extension should be allowed to do voluntary work."

No need for work permits; the control is already there with the visa.

"Expats living in Thailand on a retirement visa extension should be allowed to do voluntary work."

problem is with that statement is that for the most part all work is "voluntary"

ergo using you statement someone who is over 50 could get a retirement visa and go an work in Thailand for pay, for this to work there would have to be a stipulation that there must no considerations payable to the individual, as the current system makes no such distinction.

Further this should not be on a visa basis, but an extension of stay basis only, in other words someone is already approved to live in Thailand on a yearly basis without a visa

[jackanapes]

if you came to Thailand to retire then I suggest that's what you do at the moment there appears to be an abundance of so called volunteers .

[Suradit69]

If a "volunteer visa/work permit" was ever introduced, it would be massively abused. People with no intention of doing volunteer work would come in droves. There would be company after company providing volunteer visa/work permits for a fee. It would be an unmanageable mess. True NGOs who would try to do it legally would find it an administrative nightmare and probably couldn't afford it.

Having said that, I know quite a few expats already doing volunteer work. They give their free time and genuinely want to help and continue to do so. The authorities will not be going after those folks.

Yes, the chaos of volunteers following the tsunami demonstrated that having a massive number of well-intentioned but unregulated volunteers can actually make a bad situation worse.

Also a lot of foreigners have an elevated estimation of the value of their "skills." Making a realistic assessment of skills and experience would be a nightmare. Just because you speak English or got a first-aid badge in the Boy Scouts 50 years ago does not mean you're a god-send to Thailand.

Babbling away in English does not mean you're lifting Thai children's English conversation skills, but it probably does convince them that learning English is frustrating and confusing. How many expats have been exposed to people all around them speaking Thai for years with no notable improvement in their Thai language skills?

Genuine talent & experience undoubtedly exists amongst those who have retired here just as some nuggets of gold may exist in a mountain nearby. Whether it's worth the effort to unearth either is debatable.

And, unfortunately, a few bad apples do spoil things for everyone. Given the questionable "interest" some foreigners have in getting up close and personal with children, what will the reaction be the first time something unpleasant occurs or just an accusation is made about a teaching volunteer? What if some of these volunteers otherwise exploit their situation as has sometimes happened with farang police volunteers? What if their presence is counter-productive, as has been the case with some farang immigrations volunteers. What if someone dies because someone playing at being a nurse screws-up? It wouldn't take much to inspire a negative reaction towards all such volunteers.

And in many cases, communications would be important. Will each volunteer have to be assigned a Thai translator?

Edited April 24, 2015 by Suradit69

[gwynt]

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Great question JT.

I did a null vote, because I'm not an expat. However, when I come to Thailand I teach English in a village school in Isaan which has never had an NES. The first time it was just a couple of days and last time it was a couple of weeks.

The Thai lady who is my friend is the school English teacher and I would never say "no." I have also really improved her skills via regular emails, and verbally when I'm there. She asks for the help.

BTW I'm not a real teacher, just an NES but I'm a heck of a lot better than nothing. At least I can pronounce the words which this Thai teacher can't. The students now mostly learn writing.

Cheers

Just like you when I am in the village I help the English teacher with grammar and general presentation, usually by re-writing the homework that he give to the students, I am not a teacher, but degree qualified. I do have a work permit just not for that area or discipline.

I also donate to the local schools, computers, and bursary's for the less well off children, also tried to help with construction of toilet block but corruption got in the way, puyai baan wanted to control the monies donated by me, head teacher and the village residents, my wife and the head refused so the work did not go ahead, but watch this space I don't give up easily.

[WitawatWatawit]

@kerryd - #14

Your c) would be the way to go if the authorities want to test the waters. Organisations that could do with volunteer help can register - they would provide a list of services that volunteers could do, and name a person/s who would oversee the volunteer/s. For example, the abused kiddies outfit is just 10 minutes from my home. I would dearly love to help out there doing a bit of English teaching, odd jobs etc.

Another category that could be included - OAP, old aged pensioners. If my neighbour's fence is damaged and she doesn't have the money to fix it (and it's not too big a job), then I should be able to pop over with my tools and fix it without fear of being arrested.

PS: Kerry, don't worry about Thailand's unemployment situation. It's one of the lowest in the world. Not the same for the lazy-employment situation, though - :)

[Berkshire]

I just read the article in the OP regarding Ecuador. Funny but they seem to have some of the same experiences we have in Thailand. An excerpt:

"Almost all Cuencanos have seen the “ugly Americans.” There are not many of them but they leave a strong impression, unfortunately, once you have made their acquaintance. I have seen them throw fits in the bank and stores because the cashiers didn’t speak English. All my expat friends are embarrassed by them."

Sound familiar? I also noticed in the article that the author used the term "gringo" quite frequently. "Gringo" is the Latin American equivalent of the Thai term "farang." Isn't the OP a member of the brigade that is still offended by the term "farang?" JT, you're not offended by the term "gringo?"

[NeverSure]

Babbling away in English does not mean you're lifting Thai children's English conversation skills, but it probably does convince them that learning English is frustrating and confusing. How many expats have been exposed to people all around them speaking Thai for years with no notable improvement in their Thai language skills?

I think you're too negative and bordering on insulting. The kids are quite well progressed in writing. They just don't know how to say the words. In many cases they know what the written word means.

Grab five things, each an important color. Write the names of the colors on the chalkboard. They already know the words and what they mean.

Now pick up each color, say the word and point to the word on the chalkboard. Have them repeat the word verbally. They know what they are saying, but this is the first time they knew how it's supposed to sound.

Stay animated and try to make it fun.

Keep repeating until they can do it. Review at the end of class and begin there the next day for repetition. At the end of just two weeks they can say colors upon recognition, count to ten and so on. They could never do that before.

You're wrong. They not only learn but they think it's fun.

Edit. I learned English from my mother, father, older sister and neighbors who didn't know how to teach. God help me, I probably don't know English.

Edited April 24, 2015 by NeverSure

[JLCrab]

From my experience with Thai NGO's, although mostly about 10 years ago, the reason that an established Thai NGO does not want to get involved with hiring non-Thais and work permits is that they have to make availably financial data that they do not have to divulge, or regularly divulge, if they only hire Thai employees.

[Berkshire]

I just read the article in the OP regarding Ecuador. Funny but they seem to have some of the same experiences we have in Thailand. An excerpt:

"Almost all Cuencanos have seen the “ugly Americans.” There are not many of them but they leave a strong impression, unfortunately, once you have made their acquaintance. I have seen them throw fits in the bank and stores because the cashiers didn’t speak English. All my expat friends are embarrassed by them."

Sound familiar? I also noticed in the article that the author used the term "gringo" quite frequently. "Gringo" is the Latin American equivalent of the Thai term "farang." Isn't the OP a member of the brigade that is still offended by the term "farang?" JT, you're not offended by the term "gringo?"

And, you are so polite and humble. The nastiest people on here are the American bashers who have no tact or manners at all. End of.

I'm an American, so I'm in fact, bashing myself. Besides, I was just quoting an article. If you've got a problem with that, take it up with the author.

[Suradit69]

Most people of retired age possess a wealth of skills. In Canada, we call this grey power. These skills could be so valuable to Thailand. Too bad that they can not be more readily accepted. Like another TVF member said, both the expat and Thailand would benefit.

"Most people of retired age possess a wealth of skills"

Most?? Transferable, applicable skills? Bit of an exaggeration.

I worked in Africa for a US based NGO for nearly 25 years. The thing that inspired the most dread in us all was not malaria, cobras or armed rebels from neighboring countries. It was the announcement that a group of volunteers were coming to "help out." It usually meant a disruption to the work everyone was doing and a few months effort to repair damaged community relations after they left.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Suradit69

[CharlieH]

Post removed:

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

[manarak]

If a "volunteer visa/work permit" was ever introduced, it would be massively abused. People with no intention of doing volunteer work would come in droves. There would be company after company providing volunteer visa/work permits for a fee. It would be an unmanageable mess. True NGOs who would try to do it legally would find it an administrative nightmare and probably couldn't afford it.

Having said that, I know quite a few expats already doing volunteer work. They give their free time and genuinely want to help and continue to do so. The authorities will not be going after those folks.

It's not like that problem could not be easily solved - for example by restricting such permit to volunteer non-paid work (in any form) and making it uneligible for extensions of stay.

[elviajero]

If a "volunteer visa/work permit" was ever introduced, it would be massively abused. People with no intention of doing volunteer work would come in droves. There would be company after company providing volunteer visa/work permits for a fee. It would be an unmanageable mess. True NGOs who would try to do it legally would find it an administrative nightmare and probably couldn't afford it.

Having said that, I know quite a few expats already doing volunteer work. They give their free time and genuinely want to help and continue to do so. The authorities will not be going after those folks.

the easiest solution to this one in, is that a volunteers "WP" could be only issued against an existing extension of stay be it for retirement or married persons, there would be no "volunteer visa" and the condition of issue is that if any gets caught being paid for their "volunteering" they would lose both their "WP" and extension of stay.

Going the above route would ensure persons volunteering where already in Thailand for legitimate reasons

Absolutely right. The situation is easily remedied.

The whole system needs a revamp to give married and genuinely retired expats more freedom to live a normal life.

Edited April 24, 2015 by elviajero