USA Social Security Outside the USA and Other Things

[gk10002000]

Happened to be reading an article in Kiplinger's about retiring abroad. Two things caught my attention. The one about social security being sent to other banks in foreign countries seems to contradict what many people have posted on Thai Visa that said that can't be done.

1)
Social Security also can electronically deposit benefits in local banks of many countries, and those benefits are generally paid in local currencies, the agency says. Go to www.socialsecurity.gov/international/payments.html for more information, including the list of countries where benefits can be directly deposited.
Read more at http://www.kiplinger.com/article/retirement/T037-C000-S004-how-to-manage-your-money-if-you-retire-abroad.html#YYgBydQ2XsL51roR.99 It pointed me to the USA Social Security website dealing with International Programs. The site has a screening tool. I put in Thailand and it says: "As a United States citizen, you may receive your Social Security payments outside the United States in this country as long as you are eligible for them" Now, as a test engineer, I admit this only says you may receive the payments, it doesn't necessarily say you can have the funds direct deposited.

2)
Fidelity Investments, T. Rowe Price Investment Services and Vanguard Group say their overseas clients can keep their IRAs with or without a U.S. mailing address and the firms can send distributions electronically or by check. But Maura Cassidy, director of retirement for Fidelity, notes that the federal government requires that 10% of a distribution be withheld for taxes for those without a U.S. mailing address.
Read more at http://www.kiplinger.com/article/retirement/T037-C000-S004-how-to-manage-your-money-if-you-retire-abroad.html#YYgBydQ2XsL51roR.99

This 10% thing needs some work. When is it released? Who is actually withholding it, the US IRS? I can imagine that and you will sort that out when you file your taxes. I wouldn't think Fidelity would just hold onto it as some sort of intermediary.

[slerickson]

With respect to direct deposit, where you can direct deposit is restricted but I read that Bangkok bank is approved. I prefer to have it go direct to USAA bank and at no charge transfer to my Bangkok bank but that's just a preference.

Interesting point about #2. I skipped the issue by using my neighbors address. Everything with my brokerage is handled electronically anyway but if something did get mailed she would deal with it. The 10% withholding, who cares who has it, it won't be you though. And yes it gets sorted out on April 15.

[gk10002000]

With respect to direct deposit, where you can direct deposit is restricted but I read that Bangkok bank is approved. I prefer to have it go direct to USAA bank and at no charge transfer to my Bangkok bank but that's just a preference.

Interesting point about #2. I skipped the issue by using my neighbors address. Everything with my brokerage is handled electronically anyway but if something did get mailed she would deal with it. The 10% withholding, who cares who has it, it won't be you though. And yes it gets sorted out on April 15.

Yes, many people use Bangkok Bank, the NY branch. But the SSN website words sure imply that there are a lot of ways to do it. Perhaps they have changed how they handle it. Worth looking into. That 10 % withholding thing just because you are not in the USA is a new one I never heard of before. I am interested in if any other USA expats have run into that

[chuckd]

Bangkok Bank is the only bank in Thailand the US government will direct deposit SS entitlements into.

[Langsuan Man]

Bangkok Bank is the only bank in Thailand the US government will direct deposit SS entitlements into.

Yes but then you must physically go to Bangkok Bank and sign for your money every month

Much better to have SS sent to a US bank and the EFTS it to Bangkok Bank via the New York branch which has a US routing number. Minimal cost and much more convenient

read about it here:

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/TransferingFunds/TransferringIntoThailand/ReceivingFundsfromUSA/Pages/ReceivingFundsfromUSA.aspx

As far as the with holding is concerned by brokerages, retirement administrators. etc. it is handled just like it was when you got a pay check. The "withholding" is remitted to the Treasury and the quickest way for any business to get their accounts frozen by the IRS it to fail and pass on that money. Most allow you to designate what % you want withheld , as does Social Security

[Pib]

The Social Security Agency (SSA) has agreements with X-amount of countries where the SSA can accomplish a direct deposit directly to that foreign bank...the SSA IDD program even sends the payment in the local currency. This is called the International Direct Deposit (IDD) program. The IDD really has nothing to do as to "if" a payment can be sent to your if your live in a certain country. Don't confuse whether the SSA can send you a payment depending on your country of residence and whether they can accomplish a direct deposit to a bank in that country--different animals/rules.

Thailand is one of many countries that's "not" part of the IDD where the SSA sends the payment directly to a foreign bank under an agreement between the two countries. However, but, people who have a Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account (discussed below) can receive a U.S. govt pension directly to that account since it's treated as domestic transfer since Bangkok Bank has an Automated Clearing House (ACH) routing number via their New York brank.

If you live in Thailand and want to receive your social security payment directly from the SSA then you would need a Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit savings account specially made for reoccurring U.S. Govt Payments like social security, military retirement, civil service retirement pensions, etc. Bangkok Bank is the only Thai bank which has the capability to receive direct deposits from U.S. govt agencies because Bangkok Bank has ACH receiving capability via the their Bangkok Bank New York branch which has an ACH routing number. ACH is what U.S. govt agencies use to make benefit/pension payments unless a special program can be used such as the IDD.

You do not need to have an account with their NY branch (in fact the NY branch don't open accounts for retail customers as its a wholesale branch only)...you just use the NY branch routing number and your in-Thailand Bangkok Bank branch Direct Deposit saving account number. It's handled as a U.S. domestic transfer; not an international transfer. It's that easy...don't try to complicate...all perfectly legal....many, many U.S. folks with govt pensions have been using this method for many years....I even used it for a few months for my military pension payment. Review the previous mentioned Bangkok Bank weblink in this thread that provide full details for their "Direct Deposit" account.

Just keep in mind that the Direct Deposit account does come with some restrictions like it can be in your name only (no joint accounts), no ATM card, no ibanking outward transfers (you can do inward transfers), etc...you must physically go to "any" Bangkok Bank branch with your passport and passbook to accomplish a "withdrawal/outward transfer"...basically you have to prove in person you are still alive. These restrictions are geared to minimize pension fraud like when the pensioner died long ago and maybe the spouse failed to notify the SSA of the pensioner's death, the pension payments which were suppose to stop upon death continue to flow in and the spouse continues to withdraw the payments while conveniently continuing to forget to notify the SSA the pensioner died long ago. Yes, yes, no such restrictions on direct deposit at U.S. banks...and you can even have a joint account for a direct deposit in the U.S....but we are talking direct deposit to a foreign country even though the payment if via ACH domestic transfer....just different rules...all perfectly legal....been in use for a long time. In the U.S. when a person passes away multiple reporting civilian and govt channels exist which automatically report the pensioner's death even if the family member forgets or don't know they have to report the death which in turn causes the benefit payment to stop; but those reporting channels for the most part don't exist in many foreign countries like Thailand...unless it somehow gets reported to the U.S. embassy...if the pensioner died out in the sticks it may never get reported especially if the spouse really want the pension money to continue to flow in. Bangkok Bank's Direct Deposit savings account for U.S. govt payments is geared to prevent pension fraud, stay on the good side of U.S. laws, and of course allow U.S. govt pension money to continue to flow into Bangkok Bank accounts...good business for the bank...and of course good for the pensioner if they no longer have a U.S. bank account for the pension to flow to. A somewhat restrictive account, but still a Win-Win setup for the Pensioner and the Bank.

Regarding the tax withholding on an IRA account distribution with a foreign address that driven by IRS regulations. The withholding goes to the IRS just like any other federal tax/withholding financial companies or employers are sometimes required to withhold. To get it back you would claim it on your annual federal tax return and it would just be considered as part of your overall federal tax withholding occurring during the year in relation to your overall income. Guess that gives expats more motivation to file their federal tax returns. Extract from IRS Pub 90 follows:

[gk10002000]

I understand what people have posted. I simply quote the words from the SSA website. The words to me are unambiguous about supposedly being able to electronically deposit benefits in other countries. And, their website lists Thailand as a country whose banks they can electronically deposit benefits into. Now if the SSA really doesn't do that, well, the agency site is bad.

quote unquote below.

Social Security also can electronically deposit benefits in local banks of many countries, and those benefits are generally paid in local currencies, the agency says. Go to www.socialsecurity.gov/international/payments.html for more information, including the list of countries where benefits can be directly deposited.

As for the distribution being withheld if living in a foreign country, thanks for posting the IRS words on that.

Edited June 15, 2015 by gk10002000

[Pib]

Yes the SSA can electronically deposit benefits in local banks of "many" countries.

Notice the operative word of "many"...it didn't say "all." And the "many" refers to countries which are part of the International Direct Deposit (IDD) program. Thailand is not part of the IDD therefore the SSA does not send payments "directly to Thailand via the IDD electonic payment program."

https://faq.ssa.gov/link/portal/34011/34019/Article/3842/Can-I-use-direct-deposit-if-I-live-outside-the-United-States

At this SSA link you can see the countries that are and are not part of the IDD....and pay particular attention to the "asterisk" note codes for the countries not part of the IDD such as Thailand. Link

[IMA_FARANG]

You Can have your social security pension direct deposited to your account in Bangkok Bank in Thailand.

I am retired and my monthly pension is being direct deposited to an account in Bangkok Bank in my name.

If you are retired and your pension is being direct deposited to a U.S bank there is a Social Security form that you can fill out to request to have that changed to Bangkok Bank.

There are some restrictions however, such as the account that your pension is direct deposited to monthly can NOT have a ATM/debit card attached to that account for security reasons (not a Thai rule a Social Security rule).

To get this started you need to go through the Social Security in Manila, as there is no Social Security office in Thailand.

Once the procedure is set up.... it requires agreement with all 3 partners.... the Bangkok Bank, the Social Security office in Manila, and your current U.S. bank where your direct deposit is now sent..... you will receive a notice from the Social Security at your Thai mailing address that your direct deposit to Bangkok Bank has been approved and the date that monthly direct deposits to you Bangkok Bank account will begin.

I received my notice from the Social Security by mail to my Thai mailing address in September 2014 and my first direct deposit to Bangkok bank was made on 4 November 2014. I have been receiving them monthly since November 2014

International direct deposit transfers are done form the Social Security International operations in Baltimore, Maryland, and so far they have been on time every month.

It took me about 3 months to get the procedure set up, but once it started there has been no problems.

In my experience the Social Security office in Manila, is the office to use for this as the Social Security offices in the U.S. do not really know what to do to start direct deposits overseas.

So, if you plan to do this, contact the Manila Social Security office in the U.S, embassy there and get advice from them on how to start the process.

You will need a valid Thai mailing address and probably a good email address to do this.

Manila can send you the correct form you need to start his process. A section of the form requires you to fill it out, and there is another section Bangkok Bank needs to fill out.

Currently the ONLY bank allowed is Bangkok Bank as that is the only Bank the social security will accept for direct deposits in Thailand.

[chuckd]

From what I understand, and how it worked several years ago, one does not have to go through Manila at all.

Bangkok Bank will handle it all with the US Embassy in Bangkok. Just open the account and let them inform the US government about it.

If you are in the Pattaya area, go to the BKK Bank on Second Road, They handle lots of these accounts.

If your bank manager does not know about these accounts, ask him to call their Bangkok head office for details.

Direct number is...022-301-323.

The girls at this number speak good English. Call them yourself and ask them.

Let us know what they say.

[Pib]

You don't have to go through Manila unless you just prefer to use that office...and Bangkok Bank won't be interfacing with the embassy....but Bangkok Bank will mail the forms off to the right govt agency for you such as the Social Security Agency. But letting them mail the stuff off just takes longer for it to get setup due to mailing time...probably take a month or two to get setup. You can either mail the bank info to your local social security office (such as Manila), you can call-in the info to the SSA, or let your bank (like Bangkok Bank) mail in the forms. See this SSA Link on how to setup/change your direct deposit bank info. Link.

Or you can even make an appt at the U.S. Embassy and they will assist you with forms...but be sure to bring your direct deposit banking info to put on the forms which means you must first go setup a Direct Deposit account at Bangkok Bank. For example, see this U.S. Embassy Chiang Mai link: Link. Be sure to also click on the sublink titled Direct Deposit which gives some more info on using Bangkok Bank plus other info.

In my earlier post I mentioned I had setup a direct deposit before for my military retirement pension. Well, I went to Bangkok Bank to open the Direct Deposit account, filled out the paperwork which included forms the bank would mail off to the U.S. govt agency making the payment...the Defense Finance Accounting Agency in Kentucky in this case. I told them no need to mail the forms unless they just wanted to because I would call the bank account info into DFAS where you just give the bank's routing number (i.e., the NY branch) and your account number. I called the info into DFAS that night which was about two weeks before the next monthly pension payment was due....I still remember the DFAS customer support rep saying after I gave her the routing and account number that the routing number I gave comes up in the system as Bangkok Bank New York...is that correct just to confirm?. I said yes that's correct....job done.

The very next pension payment arrived my new Bangkok Bank account two weeks later. If Bangkok Bank did mail off the forms I expect the forms were still in the international mail system as my pension payment arrived, and when the forms did arrive DFAS they would just see in the system I had already called in the direct deposit info....duplicate submission.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Pib

[ubonjoe]

Bangkok Bank is the only bank in Thailand the US government will direct deposit SS entitlements into.

Yes but then you must physically go to Bangkok Bank and sign for your money every month

So what so hard about having to go to the bank once a month.

When I get the cha ching SMS informing me the transfer is in I fill out a withdrawal form for my direct deposit account marked as a transfer and then fill out a deposit form for my other account filled out as a transfer ( I keep a stack of forms at home).

Then go to a small branch at Tesco here. Handover my passport, bank books and completed forms and I am out of there in less than 5 minutes normally.

[Langsuan Man]

Bangkok Bank is the only bank in Thailand the US government will direct deposit SS entitlements into.

Yes but then you must physically go to Bangkok Bank and sign for your money every month

So what so hard about having to go to the bank once a month.

When I get the cha ching SMS informing me the transfer is in I fill out a withdrawal form for my direct deposit account marked as a transfer and then fill out a deposit form for my other account filled out as a transfer ( I keep a stack of forms at home).

Then go to a small branch at Tesco here. Handover my passport, bank books and completed forms and I am out of there in less than 5 minutes normally.

Nothing hard about. But why waste the time and effort to go to a bank when a few mouse clicks will do the same without all the forms, signatures, and the showing of a passport.

But like most things here in Thailand " up to you"

[Muzarella]

Other ways to get the SS benefit here and abroad is using the SS Express Debit Card or the American Express Debit Card.

[ubonjoe]

Other ways to get the SS benefit here and abroad is using the SS Express Debit Card or the American Express Debit Card.

I looked into the SS debit card when I was in the process of getting my SS payments. If you look at all the fees they charge for overseas debits you will find it can be expensive. I choose the direct deposit to Bangkok Bank because it only costs me about $12 a month.

I have also looked at other debit cards and found them to be costly also.

[pmarlin]

You don't have to go through Manila unless you just prefer to use that office...and Bangkok Bank won't be interfacing with the embassy....but Bangkok Bank will mail the forms off to the right govt agency for you such as the Social Security Agency. But letting them mail the stuff off just takes longer for it to get setup due to mailing time...probably take a month or two to get setup. You can either mail the bank info to your local social security office (such as Manila), you can call-in the info to the SSA, or let your bank (like Bangkok Bank) mail in the forms. See this SSA Link on how to setup/change your direct deposit bank info. Link.

Or you can even make an appt at the U.S. Embassy and they will assist you with forms...but be sure to bring your direct deposit banking info to put on the forms which means you must first go setup a Direct Deposit account at Bangkok Bank. For example, see this U.S. Embassy Chiang Mai link: Link. Be sure to also click on the sublink titled Direct Deposit which gives some more info on using Bangkok Bank plus other info.

In my earlier post I mentioned I had setup a direct deposit before for my military retirement pension. Well, I went to Bangkok Bank to open the Direct Deposit account, filled out the paperwork which included forms the bank would mail off to the U.S. govt agency making the payment...the Defense Finance Accounting Agency in Kentucky in this case. I told them no need to mail the forms unless they just wanted to because I would call the bank account info into DFAS where you just give the bank's routing number (i.e., the NY branch) and your account number. I called the info into DFAS that night which was about two weeks before the next monthly pension payment was due....I still remember the DFAS customer support rep saying after I gave her the routing and account number that the routing number I gave comes up in the system as Bangkok Bank New York...is that correct just to confirm?. I said yes that's correct....job done.

The very next pension payment arrived my new Bangkok Bank account two weeks later. If Bangkok Bank did mail off the forms I expect the forms were still in the international mail system as my pension payment arrived, and when the forms did arrive DFAS they would just see in the system I had already called in the direct deposit info....duplicate submission.

Or you could of used "My Pay" on line to change your bank info at DFAS.

[Pib]

Yeah. ..I've done changes online with DFAS also over the years. I called in this one case because I also had some questions to ask. With most Govt pension payments now days you can setup/change your bank account for direct deposit via online, call or mail-in form.

[lostoday]

Nothing hard about. But why waste the time and effort to go to a bank when a few mouse clicks will do the same without all the forms, signatures, and the showing of a passport.

But like most things here in Thailand " up to you"

Because no one else can get your money. Duh.... This is Thailand after all.

[chuckd]

Bangkok Bank is the only bank in Thailand the US government will direct deposit SS entitlements into.

Yes but then you must physically go to Bangkok Bank and sign for your money every month

So what so hard about having to go to the bank once a month.

When I get the cha ching SMS informing me the transfer is in I fill out a withdrawal form for my direct deposit account marked as a transfer and then fill out a deposit form for my other account filled out as a transfer ( I keep a stack of forms at home).

Then go to a small branch at Tesco here. Handover my passport, bank books and completed forms and I am out of there in less than 5 minutes normally.

"Then go to a small branch at Tesco here."

Herein lies my problem.

The village I live in is 40 kilometers from the nearest Tesco and is 55 kilometers from the Tesco in Loei we prefer. Drawing my funds out is easy but it is over 100 kilometers round trip to do so.

We just combine it with our monthly shopping trip and it works out fine, just a tad lenghty at times.

[lopburi3]

And would be impossible if confined to a hospital bed. Not having card/internet access to cash can be very bad as we age - strongly advise using US bank for deposits and then using internet to transfer ACH into a Bangkok Bank account that you have ATM cards for. This is even more of a concern for those living month-to-month on SS money and without local backup.

[lostoday]

And would be impossible if confined to a hospital bed. Not having card/internet access to cash can be very bad as we age - strongly advise using US bank for deposits and then using internet to transfer ACH into a Bangkok Bank account that you have ATM cards for. This is even more of a concern for those living month-to-month on SS money and without local backup.

I read (maybe on Thai Visa not sure) that if you are in a hospital a call to the Embassy and Bank and they will make arrangements to assist you getting the money. I'm sure I read it from an official source. Maybe someone else remember where.

[bendejo]

I also am of the sentiment that the SS transfer should go to a US bank. Then, using online access, handle the foreign transfer yourself.

[nithisa78]

With respect to direct deposit, where you can direct deposit is restricted but I read that Bangkok bank is approved. I prefer to have it go direct to USAA bank and at no charge transfer to my Bangkok bank but that's just a preference.

Interesting point about #2. I skipped the issue by using my neighbors address. Everything with my brokerage is handled electronically anyway but if something did get mailed she would deal with it. The 10% withholding, who cares who has it, it won't be you though. And yes it gets sorted out on April 15.

BBVA Compass and Charles Schwab offer the same fee free service.

[nithisa78]

I also am of the sentiment that the SS transfer should go to a US bank. Then, using online access, handle the foreign transfer yourself.

intelligentsia . . .

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Just received my annual "are you still alive" form from the SSA, filled it out with a resounding YES and will post it tomorrow.

Other folks also receiving this form?

Mac

[ubonjoe]

Just received my annual "are you still alive" form from the SSA, filled it out with a resounding YES and will post it tomorrow.

Other folks also receiving this form?

Mac

Got mine late last week. It has been in the mail since Monday.

Several others also. See: Att: Americans on Social Security.

[condor001]

Just received my annual "are you still alive" form from the SSA, filled it out with a resounding YES and will post it tomorrow.

Other folks also receiving this form?

Mac

Yes. Interesting story here. While at the Bangkok US Embassy, waiting patiently outside while my Thai wife had an appointment inside, a frustrated 65 yo Thai lady approached me with questions. She had been told at the window to wait and that was over 2 hours ago. She had that "Are you alive "form. Spoke very good English. She said her US husband died several years ago and she could not read English. Turns out her husband was retired Navy, both had lived in USA and she in fact had become a nurse working in the VA for a while. Our Embassy window obviously did not look at her form, nor ask her any questions. She was needlessly waiting and stressed out. I simply filled it out for her, witnessed it with my signiture and told her to send it snail mail, no more than 50 baht back to the USA. She already had a Bangkok transfer account and had been receiving payments. She clearly had been receiving survivor benefits thru Bangkok Bank for several years. Needless to say she was very happy and on her way. Lovely lady.

[condor001]

Seems there should be two trains of thought here. Those that rely on that SS payment every month to live and those that dont. If you don't need the funds every month, then the most practical solution, imho, is to use a US bank and simply ETF over funds when you need them. In my case, that's once a year, $25 wire fee, and I watch the THB/USD rate, which just hit a 14 year low btw. I cashed in a few c notes this week and got 34.90. I use a US broker account, which has checking and a debit card. All funds go in there. If I need a few hundred to quick convert to Thai baht, I use the debit card. All foreign ATM fees are credited back. Never have to go to my Thai bank to get funds. If I make a trip to the US, I bring back some C notes, just to use money changers and get the best rate. Much better than bank rates.

[lostoday]

Seems there should be two trains of thought here. Those that rely on that SS payment every month to live and those that dont. If you don't need the funds every month, then the most practical solution, imho, is to use a US bank and simply ETF over funds when you need them. In my case, that's once a year, $25 wire fee, and I watch the THB/USD rate, which just hit a 14 year low btw. I cashed in a few c notes this week and got 34.90. I use a US broker account, which has checking and a debit card. All funds go in there. If I need a few hundred to quick convert to Thai baht, I use the debit card. All foreign ATM fees are credited back. Never have to go to my Thai bank to get funds. If I make a trip to the US, I bring back some C notes, just to use money changers and get the best rate. Much better than bank rates.

Some people do it at casinos.