95 vs E20 fuel consumption question

[jadee]

Hi all,
I've owned a Chevrolet Aveo sedan for over 5 years and always used E20 fuel. The car is designed to take it and it's cheap! In stop-start Bangkok traffic I usually get 12km per liter fuel consumption. Out of interest, I filled up with 95 gasoline at PTT, thinking it would give me better fuel consumption. In fact, it's a lot worse at around 9.5km per liter. I don't know a lot about cars, does anyone know why this would be? I thought that fuel with ethanol would give worse fuel consumption, are there any benefits from using straight gasoline?
Thanks!

[Kwasaki]

Depends on what sort of motoring you were doing at the time of using the 95 maybe some guru can give you an answer, myself have found very little difference in kilo per litre on whatever fuel I use, I just go for the cheapest fuel I am able to use for what ever transport used.

[momtaz]

to my calculation, E20, or Gasohol 91, 95 are the same, whether in city driving or long distances, consider my car toyota altis 1.8E

[TPI]

This might help.

E10 not as cheap as it looks and not suitable for all cars

RACQ is warning motorists that running a car on ethanol-blended petrol to save money at the bowser is likely to be false economy.

E10’s maximum three cents a litre price advantage over regular unleaded petrol (ULP) is not enough to compensate for higher fuel consumption from the ethanol blend.

E10 is increasingly ‘headlined’ on service station price boards because of its slightly lower pump price. However, with RACQ’s own field testing confirming other independent research that indicates around three percent higher fuel consumption when using E10, a minimum discount of four cents a litre would be needed at current price levels to make use of the ethanol blend more economical than regular ULP.

RACQ advises motorists who want to get the best value from the fuel they buy to check closely the relative pricing of regular ULP and E10.

They should also ensure their motor vehicle is compatible with 10 percent ethanol blend petrol. While E10 is safe to use in most recent-model cars, the most reliable independent research indicates it should not be used in some 30 percent of the current
petrol-engine fleet.

To check if your vehicle is E10 compatible, contact your car’s manufacturer or importer or go to the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries website.

.

racq.com| Contact us | My RACQ

Capability of vehicles to satisfactorily operate on Ethanol Blend petrol

Submission - 1st June, 2006

The Australian Government has limited the level of ethanol in petrol in Australia to a maximum of 10%, or E10. Most new and many older vehicle models can run on ethanol blended petrol. Vehicle manufacturers and importers have provided the following information on the capability of their vehicles to operate on ethanol fuel blends up to a maximum of 10% ethanol, subject to the fuel meeting the octane requirements for the vehicle and complying with relevant mandatory Australian fuel quality standards and particularly proper blending of the ethanol into the petrol. To avoid operational issues, vehicles should be maintained in accordance with manufacturer’s servicing procedures using genuine replacement parts. This will ensure that the fuel systems of vehicles listed as suitable to use either E5 or E10 blended petrol continue to be ethanol tolerant. The information below provides technical reasons why some models cannot use ethanol blended petrol.

For more information about national fuel quality standards or about national labelling requirements for ethanol blends, please visit Department of the Environment and Heritage or Department of Industry, Tourism & Resources.

REASONS WHY E10 IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR SOME CURRENT MODELS

The Australian Design Rules (ADRs) are harmonised with international standards as specified in the UN ECE Regulations. The same requirements apply throughout the European Union. New vehicles certified to these standards will increasingly use advanced emission control technologies that strictly control the engine’s operating parameters and have therefore more stringent fuel quality requirements.

The maximum level of ethanol blended petrol in Europe is E5.

Depending on what markets certain models are sold in, Australian vehicles may be built to either a European specification (E5 compatible) or some other specification that is E10 compatible. This is the reason recommendations regarding E10 suitability will differ from one manufacturer to another.

The use of E10 petrol in vehicles that are E5 compatible may also result in material compatibility problems in the fuel system.

VEHICLE MODEL SUITABILITY FOR E5 OR E10 USE

The following table lists vehicle models suitability to run on E5 or E10 ethanol blended petrol. Before use of E5 or E10 in motor vehicles not listed below or if you are unsure, you should consult your handbook or manufacturer to check if the fuel is suitable.

MOTOR VEHICLES

E5 Suitable

E10 Suitable

BRAND

MODEL

Yes

No

Yes

No

Alfa Romeo

All models post 1998

√

x

Alfa Romeo

All models pre 1998

x

x

Audi

Audi A3 1.8L (Engine Code 'APG' 2000 onwards)

and A4 2.0L (Engine Code 'ALT' 2001 onwards)

x

x

Audi

All models post 1986 except above

√

√

Bentley

All models post 1990

√

√

BMW

All models post 1986

√

√

Citroen

All models post 1998

√

√

Chrysler

All models post 1986

√

√

Daihatsu

Charade (September 2004 onwards); Terios (September 2004 onwards); Copen (October 2004 onwards); Sirion (November 2004 onwards)

√

√

Fiat

Punto

√

x

Ford

Focus (2002 - 2004), F-series (1986-1992), Ka (All), Maverick (All), Mondeo (All), Transit (1996 - 2004)

√

x

Ford

Capri (All), Courier 2.0L & 2.6L (All), Econovan (pre-2002), Festiva (All), Laser 1.3L, 1.5L & 1.6L (All), Raider (All), Telstar (All)

x

x

Ford

All models post 1986 except above

√

√

GMDaewoo

All models

x

x

Holden

Apollo (1/87-7/89), Nova (2/89-7/94), Barina (1985-1994), Drover (1985-1987), Scurry (1985-1986), Astra (1984-1989)

x

x

Holden

Astra SRi 2.2L (11/2006 onwards); Astra 2.2L Twin Top Convertible (11/2006 onwards)

√

x

Holden

All models post 1986 except above

√

√

Honda

Insight - 2004 onwards; Civic range (including Civic Hybrid) - 2004 onwards; S2000 - 2004 onwards; CRV - 2003 onwards; MD-X - 2003 onwards; Accord & Accord Euro - 2003 onwards; Integra – 2002 onwards; Odyssey – 2004 onwards; Jazz – 2004 onwards; Legend – 2006 onwards

√

√

Hyundai

All models post October 2003

√

√

Jaguar

All models post 1986

√

√

Kia

All models post 1996

√

√

Land Rover

All models post 1986

√

√

Lexus

IS200 pre May 2002

√

x

Lexus

All models post 1986 except above

√

√

Lotus

Elan (1989-1991); Esprit (4 cyl – 1987-1999); Elise (Rover engine – 1996-2004); 340R; Exige (Rover engine – 2001, 2002 & 2004); Europa (2006 onwards)

x

x

Lotus

Esprit (V8 – 1998-2004); Exige (Toyota engine – 2004 onwards); Elise (Toyota engine – 2004 onwards)

√

√

Mazda

Mazda2 - May 2005 build onwards, Mazda3, Mazda6, RX-8, MX-5 – July 2005 build onwards, Tribute - April 2006 onwards, CX-7, CX-9

√

√

Mazda

All models except above

x

x

Mercedes-Benz

All models post 1986

√

√

MG

All models

√

x

MINI

All models

√

√

Mitsubishi

All fuel injected models post 1986

√

√

Nissan

All models post 2004

√

√

Peugeot

306 (XU engine only)

x

x

Peugeot

All models post July 1997 except above

√

√

Porsche

All models pre MY2007

√

x

Porsche

All models from MY2007

√

√

Proton

All models

√

√

Rover

All models

√

x

Renault

All models post 2001

√

x

Rolls Royce

All models between 1990 and 2002

√

√

Saab

All models post 1986

√

√

Ssangyong

Rexton, Stavic & Chairman models with 3.2 litre petrol engine

√

√

Subaru

All Subaru (before 1990)

Subaru Liberty B4 (2002 to 2003)

Subaru Liberty GT (2004 - 2006)

Impreza WRX STI (1999 to 2005)

x

x

Subaru

All models post MY1990 except above

√

√

Suzuki

Alto, Mighty Boy, Wagon R+, Swift/Cino, Sierra, Stockman, Vitara, X-90, Jimny (SOHC), Super Carry, Suzuki Baleno and Baleno GTX

x

x

Suzuki

All models except above (providing RON requirements are met)

√

√

Toyota

Camry with carburettor engines pre July 1989 and Corolla pre July 1994; Supra - pre May 1993, Cressida - pre Feb 1993, Paseo - pre Aug 1995, Starlet - pre July 1999, Land Cruiser - pre Aug 1992, Coaster - pre Jan 1993, Dyna - pre May 1995, Tarago - pre Oct 1996, Hilux , Hiace, & 4 Runner - pre Aug 1997, Townace - pre Dec 1998

x

x

Toyota

All models except above

√

√

Volkswagen

All fuel injected models post 1986

√

√

Volvo

All models post 1986

√

√

MOTORCYCLES

E5 Suitable

E10 Suitable

BRAND

MODEL

Yes

No

Yes

No

BMW

All motorcycles post 1986

√

√

Buell

All motorcycles

√

√

Harley Davidson

All motorcycles post 1986

√

√

Honda

All motorcycles and All Terrain Vehicles

x

x

Kawasaki

All motorcycles and All Terrain Vehicles

x

x

Piaggio

All motorcycles

x

x

Polaris

All motorcycles

√

√

Suzuki

All motorcycles and All Terrain Vehicles

x

x

Yamaha

All motorcycle and All Terrain Vehicles

x

x

REASONS WHY ETHANOL BLENDED PETROL IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN SOME OLDER VEHICLES

Introduction

The following information outlines the key reasons why vehicle manufacturers do not recommend the use of any ethanol/petrol blended fuels in vehicles made before 1986. This information is also applicable to post-1986 vehicles listed as unsuitable to use ethanol blended petrol.

Ethanol has a number of important chemical and physical properties that need to be considered in a vehicle's design.

Carburettor Equipped Engines

Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks.

The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure.

Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.

As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components.

Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable. Water in the fuel system can also result in the engine hesitating and running roughly.

Fuel Injected Engines

In addition to the issues mentioned above for carburettor equipped engines, the use of ethanol blended petrol in fuel injection systems will result in early deterioration of components such as injector seals, delivery pipes, and fuel pump and regulator.

Mechanical fuel injection systems and earlier electronic systems may not be able to fully compensate for the lean-out effect of ethanol blended petrol, resulting in hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration.

Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start can also result.

Exhaust And Evaporative Emission Levels

Lean-out resulting from the oxygenating effect of ethanol in the fuel may affect exhaust emissions.

Of more concern is that fuel containing ethanol can increase permeation emissions from fuel system components, particularly those that have aged for nearly 20 years. Therefore the increased vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted at the refining stage) will lead to increased evaporative emissions.

[questionsreplies]

Should we alternate and use different gasoline sometimes ?

[ktm jeff]

Ethanol has about half the energy than "propper" petrol . So using E 20 will give 5% less power / more fuel consumption than E 10 , ( E20 has 10% more ethanol than E10 - and that ethanol has half the energy ) . OP,s figures dont make sense . Only have to get stuck in traffic , or use the air con more , to mess up the figures . Unless you have a "bio" car ( E85 ) , use either E10 - 91 , or E10 - 95 . Sone performance , or older cars , require/benifit from Benzine .

[Ace of Pop]

E85 is funny stuff,it improves acceleration time .yet loosing MPG.

[thedemon]

I didn't think PTT stations sold straight gasoline. Could be wrong but I think that whether 91 or 95 at PTT, it's still gasohol.

I only know because I buy gas for my boat which apparently is not supposed to use gasohol. The only stations in Bangkok that seem to always sell "Benzine" (as it's called in Thailand) are Caltex.

I'm certainly no expert on the subject though.

[DavisH]

Only under very constant conditions would a significant difference be found in economy between E10 and E 20. But conditions are so variable from day to day, I've found no difference in economy between them in my swift, so I just use E20.

[bangkokairportlink]

Anybody using E20 for years and still happy with it ? No need to use 95 sometimes ?

[VocalNeal]

On 7/7/2015 at 7:22 PM, ktm jeff said:

Ethanol has about half the energy than "propper" petrol .

 

On 7/8/2015 at 9:19 AM, Ace of Pop said:

E85 is funny stuff,it improves acceleration time .yet loosing MPG.

Ethanol blended fuel has more potential but needs more volume. My VW Flex car in Brazil got more Hp on E100 (more like E95 to stop people drinking it) but got less Km/L.

From Wikipedia "

• 1.0L VHT 72 hp (76 hp Ethanol) producing 95 Nm (104 Nm Ethanol) @ 3850 rpm

 

About 600 km per tank on "benzine' but only about 450 on E100!

 

When comparing one has to calculate in baht/km just as one would if comparing LPG!

[Gary A]

2 hours ago, bangkokairportlink said:

Anybody using E20 for years and still happy with it ? No need to use 95 sometimes ?

Most places now have E20 available and that's mainly what I have been using for a number of years. If E20 is not available, the Ford Focus needs 95 octane, so once in awhile that's what I buy. Quite honestly the difference between E20 and 95 whatever is not different and not noticeable.

 

The Focus belongs to my wife. My Isuzu diesel is more efficient.

[KhunBENQ]

3 hours ago, bangkokairportlink said:

Anybody using E20 for years and still happy with it ? No need to use 95 sometimes ?

Since at least 5 years with a small Mazda 2 specified for E20.

No need for a change.

 

[KhunBENQ]

On 8.7.2015 at 10:01 AM, thedemon said:

I didn't think PTT stations sold straight gasoline. Could be wrong but I think that whether 91 or 95 at PTT, it's still gasohol.

Major PTT stations still sell straight gasoline 95.

Just look out for the most expensive stuff on the price list.

Today from 33 Baht up (depends on location).

 

Bit hard to read "Blue Gasoline 95":

[DavisH]

On 7/8/2015 at 10:47 AM, DavisH said:

Only under very constant conditions would a significant difference be found in economy between E10 and E 20. But conditions are so variable from day to day, I've found no difference in economy between them in my swift, so I just use E20.

Changed my mind...just use gasohol 95 now. Economy is a bit better (around 0.5 to 1 km/l over E10) in my swift (as measured over several thousand kms). Engine runs well on it. Other car models may vary. 

[bangkokairportlink]

20 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

Major PTT stations still sell straight gasoline 95.

Just look out for the most expensive stuff on the price list.

Today from 33 Baht up (depends on location).

 

Bit hard to read "Blue Gasoline 95":

 

 

Hello, why is E85 cheaper ?

 

 

[ktm jeff]

E 85 is cheaper as Ethanol has 35 % less energy than "Gasahol" , meaning you may use a lot more , possibly whilst getting less power. E85 is only 13% cheaper. Do the maths.

[VocalNeal]

^ If I am correct.

 

Your 95 costs 11% more per litre. So your 1km/l needs to be 11% better than on E20. That means you are getting about 10km/l ?

Edited June 13, 2017 by VocalNeal

[Ace of Pop]

For Motorway driving E85 is much the same as E20. In the City traffic its no saving at all ..[emoji594][emoji383]


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[Ace of Pop]

E85 on M/way about 1600 rpm


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[luk AJ]

Ethanol blended fuel has more potential but needs more volume. My VW Flex car in Brazil got more Hp on E100 (more like E95 to stop people drinking it) but got less Km/L.
From Wikipedia "

• 1.0L VHT 72 hp (76 hp Ethanol) producing 95 Nm (104 Nm Ethanol) @ 3850 rpm

 
About 600 km per tank on "benzine' but only about 450 on E100!
 
When comparing one has to calculate in baht/km just as one would if comparing LPG!

You are correct, ethanol gives more power, I have a BMW M5 and I use E 20 all the time. If you want to get full potential from ethanol the car should be tuned to this fuel mix otherwise it won't do any good.


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[bangkokairportlink]

5 hours ago, luk AJ said:

You are correct, ethanol gives more power, I have a BMW M5 and I use E 20 all the time. If you want to get full potential from ethanol the car should be tuned to this fuel mix otherwise it won't do any good.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

so E20 is good for performance cars ? Do you use anything else sometimes ?

 

 

[luk AJ]

Yes E 20 is good for performance, E85 even better but not everywhere available and results in much higher fuel consumption. If you have ever time just stop once in the evening at the PTT station at the 10 baht tollway Bangkok - Cheang Watthana. Every evening around 10pm you will find a lot of tuned cars, they for sure can confirm what I claimed and you can find very good tuners in their midst.


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[bangkokairportlink]

2 hours ago, luk AJ said:

Yes E 20 is good for performance, E85 even better but not everywhere available and results in much higher fuel consumption. If you have ever time just stop once in the evening at the PTT station at the 10 baht tollway Bangkok - Cheang Watthana. Every evening around 10pm you will find a lot of tuned cars, they for sure can confirm what I claimed and you can find very good tuners in their midst.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

If it's Somchai who tuned his ugly pickup I would believe more that he uses E85 because it's cheaper.

Hate these ugly customized pickup owners.

 

 

[luk AJ]

 
If it's Somchai who tuned his ugly pickup I would believe more that he uses E85 because it's cheaper.
Hate these ugly customized pickup owners.
 
 

What are you talking about??? These pick-ups are mostly diesel engines nothing to do with the topic...


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[ktm jeff]

VocalNeal , yes , you are correct. E 10 95 is 10 or 11% more expensive than E 20.  E10 91 is 8% more expensive than E 20.  I would always prefer to use fuel with the least amount of Ethanol considering the long term damage / problems it causes.  A car ( standard or performance ) that has been correctly tuned ONLY for E85 , could give more ultimate power but i would fuel consumption to be as much as 40% higher , although bad emmisions could be less.  I believe "E 85" contains about 70% Ethanol.

[bangkokairportlink]

13 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

VocalNeal , yes , you are correct. E 10 95 is 10 or 11% more expensive than E 20.  E10 91 is 8% more expensive than E 20.  I would always prefer to use fuel with the least amount of Ethanol considering the long term damage / problems it causes.  A car ( standard or performance ) that has been correctly tuned ONLY for E85 , could give more ultimate power but i would fuel consumption to be as much as 40% higher , although bad emmisions could be less.  I believe "E 85" contains about 70% Ethanol.

 

What long term damage ? If your car make said that you can use it, there won't have any damage.

 

 

[ktm jeff]

7 hours ago, bangkokairportlink said:

 

What long term damage ? If your car make said that you can use it, there won't have any damage.

 

 

Just because the maker says you can , doesnt mean its as good for your engine as other fuels that are available. Ethanol is a "dry" fuel ( it lacks lubrication propeties ) ,  and can cause similar lubrication problems as experienced by many people , many years ago who tried to switch from "leaded" petrol , to "un-leaded" .  Ethanol also causes engine components , such as valves , to run a lot hotter .  In Thailand , a hot country. Just think about that for a moment. Show me 2 engines after 150K , 1 thats run on E85 and the other thats run on E10 , and you will both hear and feel the difference.  As a matter of fact , did you know there is a special engine oil available , just to use if you try to run on CNG , another "dry" fuel.  End of the day , its not my engine , or my problem. Just do some serious research befor commiting yourself. Im not being "anti-green" , but the small annual savings some people may make  do not yet compensate for the many issues and concerns. Give it 5 - 10 years , and Ethanol and CNG may make more sense due o economic reasons.

[BKKBike09]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/9266802/Ethanol-More-or-less-power

 

A topic that can be debated ad infinitum ...

[bangkokairportlink]

On 6/15/2017 at 7:05 PM, ktm jeff said:

Just because the maker says you can , doesnt mean its as good for your engine as other fuels that are available. Ethanol is a "dry" fuel ( it lacks lubrication propeties ) ,  and can cause similar lubrication problems as experienced by many people , many years ago who tried to switch from "leaded" petrol , to "un-leaded" .  Ethanol also causes engine components , such as valves , to run a lot hotter .  In Thailand , a hot country. Just think about that for a moment. Show me 2 engines after 150K , 1 thats run on E85 and the other thats run on E10 , and you will both hear and feel the difference.  As a matter of fact , did you know there is a special engine oil available , just to use if you try to run on CNG , another "dry" fuel.  End of the day , its not my engine , or my problem. Just do some serious research befor commiting yourself. Im not being "anti-green" , but the small annual savings some people may make  do not yet compensate for the many issues and concerns. Give it 5 - 10 years , and Ethanol and CNG may make more sense due o economic reasons.

 

 

So you are sure that it is better to use 95 than e20 ?