Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[AleG]

One hundred sixty pages of people running around like headless chicken screaming "No DNA! Cover-up! Cover-Up!"

Then it turns out they were wrong and what do they do? Jump to the next set of speculation and conjecture.

Some people never learn.

The testimony today stated that the DNA evidence should still exist (what I, for one, have been saying for weeks). The defense has been asked yet again to list what it wants to retest. Of course, they have already indicated this many times over the last few months (while the samples were sitting and degrading) and were promised a (belated) answer on this request by July 8. We will see what the RTP and court say when the samples are once again requested tomorrow.

It is worth noting that the defense has also requested photos of the autopsies and chains of custody of the DNA samples. They have been obstructed in receiving those also.

You should read the article from post #4207

[MockingJay]

It is evident of the large scale corruption, lies, cover up and framing that is part of this case. These are bad enough. Now what is becoming even worse and alarming is for this charade to continue. If this country and its justice system has even a small amount of credibility, they will get of this save face sillyness and do the honourable thing. let the poor innocent guys go. give them some compensation for unlawful imprisonment and charging and get this corrupt filth of policemen behind bars where they belong.

Correctamundo! I believe the fact that this "case" was accepted as such by the court, given the plethora of cockups and confusion during the so-called "investigation" clearly shows that the justice system in LOS is nothing but a joke. They will hang the B2, no matter what.

[Linky]

Defense must be very sure their clients are not guilty to want dna retested. If it comes back and matches the accused they are in trouble. But then again, defense does not have to show prosecution or the court the result of the test. They dont have to prove innocence, the prosecution must prove guilt.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

But TIT so I suppose anything can happen in a Thai court.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

One of the key things the defense is being refused access to is the chain of custody documentation.

Yes sorry I should be more clear. The defense should not even have to request chain of custody. The prosecution should tender it in evidence to the court. If they dont then they have failed and the defense should simply request the court not to allow that dna evidence.

Umm, maybe I have just spent too long in the real world and I must learn Thainess a bit more.

[Dogmatix]

Defense must be very sure their clients are not guilty to want dna retested. If it comes back and matches the accused they are in trouble. But then again, defense does not have to show prosecution or the court the result of the test. They dont have to prove innocence, the prosecution must prove guilt.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

But TIT so I suppose anything can happen in a Thai court.

That's right. Anything can happen in a Thai court and once its ruling has been issued, it is a criminal offence to criticise it. There are no juries and judges pass judgement and sentence by themselves. Thailand has a civil law system which means that judges do not have to take legal precedents into account but are free to interpret the law in their on way, which may differ substantially from rulings made in other similar cases, sometimes by the same judge. Defendants have no right to know the prosecution's case against them before they are forced to plead when they are usually presented with heavy threats about the consequences of not pleading guilty. When the case goes to trial the prosecution again has no obligation to provide the defence with proper details of its case. Judges are appointed and promoted by the Justice Ministry which means there is no concept of judicial independence at this level of criminal justice, although things may be better at the Supreme Court level. Judges are recruited straight from university, based on connections, not from the ranks of successful and already wealthy barristers, as in the UK. Thai judges earn tiny civil service salaries may end up rather wealthy. Young judges have to cut their teeth in the provinces for years until their connections and other notable attributes can ingratiate them enough with the powers that be to get a plumb court posting in Bangkok where all the big money cases are heard. The system is rotten by design.

[BoristheBlade]

They had the results before the samples were even taken , just like a person of interest.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

I respect the opinions of anyone who is brave enough to speak up knowing they might get two tons of shiz dipped on them for that opinion. This forum is not for the timid or weak of heart. Day in and day out there are literally volumes of conversations written. CSI, bizarre, intelligent deduction or the insane. Nevertheless, there is one common denominator and that is Hannah and David and that we all want whoever did this to pay and pay dearly. This case is where it is because of international involvement and I'm sure those of you who actually live or have lived in Thailand would agree that the police sometimes adjust the story when money is paid and the real criminals are never prosecuted. If these two boys are not convicted then the blame is on those who did wrong investigating this case. The Pm will have international egg on his face but who will grill him? He'll just have an international media blackout and pull the strings on the puppet media here. And the crackdown this and that life continues...

[BritTim]

One hundred sixty pages of people running around like headless chicken screaming "No DNA! Cover-up! Cover-Up!"

Then it turns out they were wrong and what do they do? Jump to the next set of speculation and conjecture.

Some people never learn.

The testimony today stated that the DNA evidence should still exist (what I, for one, have been saying for weeks). The defense has been asked yet again to list what it wants to retest. Of course, they have already indicated this many times over the last few months (while the samples were sitting and degrading) and were promised a (belated) answer on this request by July 8. We will see what the RTP and court say when the samples are once again requested tomorrow.

It is worth noting that the defense has also requested photos of the autopsies and chains of custody of the DNA samples. They have been obstructed in receiving those also.

You should read the article from post #4207

I already read it. The key section is:

Among the evidence available for restesting were a garden hoe allegedly used as the murder weapon, blood found in the sand at the murder scene, shoes and hair samples, said lead defence lawyer Nakhon Chompuchat.

The only new thing here is "hair samples". It is not clear if this includes the alleged "blond hair" found in Hannah's hand.

The key samples for the semen DNA should still be available, but the defense has once again to request them. We will then see if they are given up.

[Nip]

The possible reward for the bungling Mr Bean CCTV policeman previously of Surat Thani Region 8 for being made the laughing stock of the world's media was I believe to be made the Chief of Police in Rayong? He must have done something right?

[smedly]

Defense must be very sure their clients are not guilty to want dna retested. If it comes back and matches the accused they are in trouble. But then again, defense does not have to show prosecution or the court the result of the test. They dont have to prove innocence, the prosecution must prove guilt.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

But TIT so I suppose anything can happen in a Thai court.

In my humble view all they need to do is prove a break in the chain of custody to have the current dna tossed out.

One of the key things the defense is being refused access to is the chain of custody documentation.

Yes sorry I should be more clear. The defense should not even have to request chain of custody. The prosecution should tender it in evidence to the court. If they dont then they have failed and the defense should simply request the court not to allow that dna evidence.

Umm, maybe I have just spent too long in the real world and I must learn Thainess a bit more.

Defence lawyer - officer do you have the chain of custody documentation

Officer - well no but we check chain everyday and prisoner cannot escape, and we have big gun

[Linky]

I dont think the 2 accused did these murders but as I dont know the evidence It could be that they did. However allow me to adjust my tin foil hat for a moment.

It could be these 2 did it but the reason the police refuse to hand over details of dna and such like evidence to the defense is that maybe, just maybe there is also other dna on those items. Other dna that could possibly match (insert any headmans sons name here).

Just a thought, off with my hat now to await todays c*ckup in court.

[PaPiPuPePo]

If this was my home country the case would have been tossed out by the judge already. Just like that.

I'm wondering if there's ever a time in Thailand where a judge sees that the prosecution can't prove its case "beyond a (any) reasonable doubt" and dismisses the case out of hand. If that happens the accused can't be charged or tried again. It's up to the prosecution to prove its case and never up to the defendant to prove his innocence.

This worries me about Thailand as much as anything. Is there any justice for foreigners which these boys are? We'll see.

One thing that a lot of expats are aware of but others may well not be, so bears repeating or saying, is that in general in Asian countries the "justice" system is very heavily weighted towards prosecution. Even in more westernised and modernised Japan something like 99% of trials end in conviction, which is freaking scary if you think about it.

There's basically no concept of "innocent until proven guilty," or of reasonable doubt; getting the attention of the authorities, never mind being arrested or jailed, or worse ending up in the situation these two guys are, carries a stigma of guilt beyond what Westerners would, for the most part, ever experience back home.

This is one reason why in any Asian country I've spent some time the citizens make every effort to have zero contact with the police--things can easily go south if you do.

[Nigeone]

The police woman producing the results of the DNA tests in a couple of hours I think needs to be challenged. There's various levels that can be done and I'm sure the testing procedure is going to be challenged by the defense expert as to procedures etc. this is the last day for a month something good has to come out today for the prosecution or there really deep deep in that hole.The fat lady getting ready to,fill,it in. A few notorious posters are quiet. Are they getting something direct from the courts.....?Just a thought

[fayou]

Well a smoking gun needs to be produced that connects the B2, if its not DNA ( which lets be honest is looking very dubious at the moment ) maybe its a murder weapon ( The Hoe ) this is now even more dubious, as it seems they dont have any DNA evidence connecting the B2 to the hoe. Perhaps some of the B2's clothing; Not looking great so far but I do believe they have something like this to produce. They have no motive and no witnesses to the actual crime ( unless they have kept them under lock and key ) The police force had the B2 re-enact the crime when it was obvious they were been told what to do, even if some claim they were not, the footage of said re-enactment shows the B2 committing the crime in a different manner to current theory put forth by prosecutors. I dont think the missed checking of CCTV or other lack of detective work unrelated to the B2 will hold much sway with the judges because it only points to incompetence, coupled with sloppy, unprofessional and alleged fabricated evidence on the B2 however it paints a telling picture.

Even for the most staunch RTP defenders, its hard to deny they have massive holes. Taking the stand and sprouting baseless conjecture is absurd. " We have no reason to believe they were followed from the AC bar " - Any lawyer/barrister worth his salt would tare statements like this to shreds ( given the chance ) It would appear they cannot even collude together, with officers giving conflicting reports of that to their colleagues on the stand. All of which after being informed to go away and reassess the case they have put together.

I have seen some comments alluding to the fact that in many other countries this would have been thrown out, I also stated the same. But instead let me offer a different scenario; The accused are some higher up or respected Thai citizens - Would this trial still be allowed to continue ?

If I am honest I don't think NS has anything to do with these disgusting crimes, maybe people connected to him did, its hard to argue some things dont point to that. I think if NS was complicit something undeniable would have surfaced. Certain aspects in relation to his laywers/familys behaviour has been questionable but that could be for a variety of reasons which I am not informed enough to dissect.

Sean is an interesting character I have first hand accounts of him allegedly been involved with some illegal past times on Koh Tao. He may know more than what he said but it doesnt make what he may know fact. It could well be gossip he was told. I think he is or was a troubled individual who sprouted some pretty damming accusations which so far have no weight. Did he really know David as well as he pertains to? Did he meet him or even intend to? Perhaps he was in some other deep stuff on Koh Tao and seen it as his way out.

Anyways rant over, I just hope justice if brought upon whoever was responsable for this tragic loss of life, along with some small peace for all familys involved.

related to your last question: "Did he meet him or even intend to?"

Sean Mc Anna and David Miller's last chat 14 sept 2014

-Sean McAnna is = Gianni DeLupo recently (?) chaged to = Sean DiLupo ( Facebook)

note: quality is bad because of the upload !

[JLCrab]

snip

snip

OK -- I made a comment last March that I don't think -- if the B2 are not complicit -- then the Powers-that-be will not be able to pull it off. And I'm going to stick by the comment. And that this is a murder trial with the world media on site and that that is a different scenario than usual.

Okay, accepted. Now let's leave it like that.

OK.

[whaleboneman]

birma guys...

not cambodians but the problem is the same.

the 3 or 4 real culprits are still running free.

Have you contacted the defense team to provide your testimony of who the real culprits are?

And have u? As u seem to know so much about it.

I'm not the one claiming to know who the "the 3 or 4 real culprits are" are.

I don't know who they are, but I know they aren't on trial.

[BritTim]

1:18AM BST 26 Sep 2014

Police quiz Thai footballers over murder of British backpackers

Police have been evasive about the AC Bar's possible importance to their inquiries. Thai media reported a police raid on the nightclub last Friday during which "narcotics" were allegedly found. However, the nightclub continues to operate and officials have repeatedly refused to provide details of that operation.

Many Koh Tao locals say they are convinced that whatever triggered the Britons' murders is likely to have taken place at the nightclub.

"We all believe that it started at AC Bar," one source said.

Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11122966/Police-quiz-Thai-footballers-over-murder-of-British-backpackers.html

To me, the most interesting parts of that article are at the end (and have some bearing on the sainted Pol Gen Panya:

Rumours have circulated about a possible altercation at the AC Bar between the two victims and a group of Thai men.

However, Panya Mamen, the police chief, said interviews with Ms Witheridge's friends indicated there had been "no such confrontation".

Police are thought to be in possession of footage from security cameras inside the nightclub but it has not been made public.

Note that, according to court testimony

• Rumors of an altercation in AC Bar were not investigated
• No CCTV footage was available from inside the bar

[smedly]

what I don't get is the sheer lack of cctv footage from 2am onwards, the only thing shown was the running man which in my view would never have been released if it wasn't for the original transferred cop

surely there must be footage of B3 going to the shop for more beer before heading off to see his GF

I will even lay money on it that there is footage of B1 and B2 leaving the beach area at about 3am

although granted having never been there I don't know the layout of the place

anyone with google earth that knows the layout could you perhaps point out a few landmarks and the location of AC bar and the murder area

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@10.0891645,99.8258572,159m/data=!3m1!1e3

[diehard60]

Yea know I just read this and clicked on to read all of it "

• Must read Koh Tao police 'never checked' all important CCTV camera after Britons Killed

But when I went there there was nothing about this topic. I wonder why????????????????? Cover up ??? Again?????

[Mooner]

Koh Tao police quizzed on why they didn’t look into rumoured bar dispute

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

< snip >

Not investigated

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Read more: http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

Hows this one going to be spun by the shills?

It was a rumor.

Irrelevant. It was a horrific double murder. Should of been followed up! Interesting that some reports say it was followed up but then the senior officer said it wasnt.

[AleG]

what I don't get is the sheer lack of cctv footage from 2am onwards, the only thing shown was the running man which in my view would never have been released if it wasn't for the original transferred cop

surely there must be footage of B3 going to the shop for more beer before heading off to see his GF

I will even lay money on it that there is footage of B1 and B2 leaving the beach area at about 3am

although granted having never been there I don't know the layout of the place

anyone with google earth that knows the layout could you perhaps point out a few landmarks and the location of AC bar and the murder area

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@10.0891645,99.8258572,159m/data=!3m1!1e3

Muang Muang went back to their own room to get, IIRC, a bottle of wine back to the beach, he didn't go to a store.

Personally I find it hard to believe that three men drinking three bottles of beer and one bottle of wine among them would end up too drunk to remember anything.

[Dogmatix]

It would definitely speed things up, if you knew what the results were in advance.

[Rykbanlor]

Did I just read that they haven't even recieved the report on NOmsod's DNA? The Police officer said he was promised a report which never came. &lt;deleted&gt;?

[stephenterry]

So far, sparse facts that fuels speculation. Answers to both the alleged altercation, and a clearer DNA insight into the UK autopsy reports should provide more clarity. The defence have two UK witnesses and the coroner's report (as I understand it).

As far as the RTP are concerned, their only interest is to gain a conviction, not carry out a proper investigation. Hence their ineptitude of following up what would be second nature in other countries. And a judgement that could be politically motivated, so as not to rock the boat. Hence the likelihood (as hinted by the lead judge) of a resumption of the case in the Appeals court.

Does this mean that if he considers it a 'mistrial' in this court either both, or one of the prosecution or defence can appeal? And what would happen to the B2? Stay in confinement? Perhaps someone could clarify?

[BritTim]

So far, sparse facts that fuels speculation. Answers to both the alleged altercation, and a clearer DNA insight into the UK autopsy reports should provide more clarity. The defence have two UK witnesses and the coroner's report (as I understand it).

As far as the RTP are concerned, their only interest is to gain a conviction, not carry out a proper investigation. Hence their ineptitude of following up what would be second nature in other countries. And a judgement that could be politically motivated, so as not to rock the boat. Hence the likelihood (as hinted by the lead judge) of a resumption of the case in the Appeals court.

Does this mean that if he considers it a 'mistrial' in this court either both, or one of the prosecution or defence can appeal? And what would happen to the B2? Stay in confinement? Perhaps someone could clarify?

If the Burmese kids know the truth as to what happened that night, they will be kept in jail as long as possible, where threats of assisted suicide will prevent them speaking out. If they are ignorant of what happened, they might be given bail.

[bruceybonus]

It is evident of the large scale corruption, lies, cover up and framing that is part of this case. These are bad enough. Now what is becoming even worse and alarming is for this charade to continue. If this country and its justice system has even a small amount of credibility, they will get of this save face sillyness and do the honourable thing. let the poor innocent guys go. give them some compensation for unlawful imprisonment and charging and get this corrupt filth of policemen behind bars where they belong.

They have no face left to save with the international community. The country's reputation in the last 5 years has plummeted & it will take a long time to repair.

[stephenterry]

what I don't get is the sheer lack of cctv footage from 2am onwards, the only thing shown was the running man which in my view would never have been released if it wasn't for the original transferred cop

surely there must be footage of B3 going to the shop for more beer before heading off to see his GF

I will even lay money on it that there is footage of B1 and B2 leaving the beach area at about 3am

although granted having never been there I don't know the layout of the place

anyone with google earth that knows the layout could you perhaps point out a few landmarks and the location of AC bar and the murder area

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@10.0891645,99.8258572,159m/data=!3m1!1e3

Muang Muang went back to their own room to get, IIRC, a bottle of wine back to the beach, he didn't go to a store.

Personally I find it hard to believe that three men drinking three bottles of beer and one bottle of wine among them would end up too drunk to remember anything.

The last sentence is speculative, and not based on any case-specific scientific evidence. And has no bearing on the B2's movements or where they were at 4am. And another point. Hannah's friends stated she left the AC bar with David between 3-4 am. If true, where is that CCTV?

[DLang]

Note that, according to court testimony

• Rumors of an altercation in AC Bar were not investigated
• No CCTV footage was available from inside the bar

Awww, aren't they just adorable.

[DLang]

Beyond a tragic comedy at this stage, isn't it.

[stephenterry]

So far, sparse facts that fuels speculation. Answers to both the alleged altercation, and a clearer DNA insight into the UK autopsy reports should provide more clarity. The defence have two UK witnesses and the coroner's report (as I understand it).

As far as the RTP are concerned, their only interest is to gain a conviction, not carry out a proper investigation. Hence their ineptitude of following up what would be second nature in other countries. And a judgement that could be politically motivated, so as not to rock the boat. Hence the likelihood (as hinted by the lead judge) of a resumption of the case in the Appeals court.

Does this mean that if he considers it a 'mistrial' in this court either both, or one of the prosecution or defence can appeal? And what would happen to the B2? Stay in confinement? Perhaps someone could clarify?

If the Burmese kids know the truth as to what happened that night, they will be kept in jail as long as possible, where threats of assisted suicide will prevent them speaking out. If they are ignorant of what happened, they might be given bail.

BT - more speculation (although feasible), no doubt fuelling responses by AleG and the like. I was hoping for a legal opinion. Should have known...

[tajtom]

Innocent Innocent Innocent

The POLICE are JOKERS useless and could not investigate a 7 Eleven. They botched the crime scene and the whole investigation

A Thai did this maybe 2

Thats the truth