Could the new battery be dead?

[menzies233]

I had a Yuasa battery die overnight on my Honda 250, completely dead (It is a 6A/hr little bitty thing). Bought a new Yuasa replacement about 3 months ago, it was one of the wet lead acid jobs where you add the test tubes of acid at home then charge it.

My fantabulous Thai made battery charger only graduates in 1 Ampere steps so I couldn't give it the desired 1.2 A over 5-10 hours, instead it got 1 A over 10 hours.

Anyway it seemed to be OK until I bought my brand new super duper CTEK 0.8A Bike battery charger and conditioner the other day.

Here is the way things are, I put the battery on charge with the CTEK (0.8 XS) and it charges the battery through all six stages, takes almost 24 hours and is sitting there saying 100% Charge. I disconnect the CTEK for 1 hour and reconnect, now it gets through the first 2 stages in seconds, but then sits for almost 2 hours on the stage 3 charge, ABSORPTION then goes to full again.

Tried it two times and it still sits there on the absorption phase for ages. It doesn't do that on my kids MSX, it recharges in about 20 minutes and indicates full.

So it took some measurements today on the wonderful Thai made charger, it was hooked up to a 75A/hr car battery, that was a bit low, 12.4V. The charger was set to 3A but kept buzzing every few seconds and the amperage charge kept going from 4A to 10A randomly, the voltage measured at the battery varied between 15.3 and 16.5V, I then made another check and found that when the charger made the buzzing sound, it was putting out 50Hz mains frequency from the DC output, intermittently.

Question - Have I fried my batteries?

I think the Thai charger needs to be burned!

[papa al]

I don't know how that CTEK thingy works.Kindly explain.

[Gonsalviz]

Yuasa me?

[elgordo38]

If it can happen to governments it can happen to batteries.

[menzies233]

I don't know how that CTEK thingy works.Kindly explain.

The little MOFO goes through about 3 steps to charge a battery, Desulphation up to 8 hours, Bulk charge - up to 20 Hours, Absorption up to 10 hours, Analysis - 3 minutes, Float 10 Days, Pulse depemds on V drop. The last 3 steps are really irrelevant, it is the absorption phase that is taking the time.

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/857473/CTEK-Automatic-charger-XS-08

​

Edited August 20, 2015 by menzies233

[Garry]

Never had an issue with CTEK chargers on my batteries, though my batteries are the maintenance free type. Perhaps go that route and ditch the wet, lead acid one.

[Dellboy218]

First thing....Do not trust the ampere meter on any of those chargers. You need a half decent test meter to double check the current. Was it really putting AC onto the battery or is it an AC component on top of the DC. This is common as they are normally a very crude rectifier with no regulation which is why you must never use them on a sealed type battery that Gary was talking about. Reckon to charge batteries at 10% of capacity as a rough guide, in your case 0.6A or so. If they are getting rather warm then you are over doing it. As a matter of interest, once charged, leave it for a day and check to see if it has self discharged in that time. If it has then you know the plates are damaged and debris has fallen off them forming a sediment in the bottom.

If you have a hydrometer handy, check the S.G of the electrolyte, a charged battery should be 1.250 or more.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Dellboy218

[paz]

First thing....Do not trust the ampere meter on any of those chargers. You need a half decent test meter to double check the current. Was it really putting AC onto the battery or is it an AC component on top of the DC. This is common as they are normally a very crude rectifier with no regulation which is why you must never use them on a sealed type battery that Gary was talking about. Reckon to charge batteries at 10% of capacity as a rough guide, in your case 0.6A or so. If they are getting rather warm then you are over doing it. As a matter of interest, once charged, leave it for a day and check to see if it has self discharged in that time. If it has then you know the plates are damaged and debris has fallen off them forming a sediment in the bottom.

If you have a hydrometer handy, check the S.G of the electrolyte, a charged battery should be 1.250 or more.

Absolutely correct technical advice. But some aspects contrast a little with the practical side of things in 2015.

Short version - if your battery works be happy with it and don't spend further time reading

Measurement of electrolyte physical characteristic (density for charge state and temperature for charge progress) have become a lost art, killed by electronics. Measuring density and temperature (at the risk of burning a piece of clothing) makes little sense in a time where liquid electrolyte is becoming rarer every day, and electronic diagnosis is way easier. On the other side of things these cheap so-called smart chargers only measure two units - current absorption (amperage) and intensity (voltage),, recorded over time (a short time) to ascertain or guess what the battery is really doing. Do people knows that safe and optimal battery charge (especially for quick charging) requires temperature monitoring, and since Thailand is -on average- hotter than the countries where these are sold mostly, it can easily overcharge a battery? Of course not, that is just information overwhelming. In that sense cellphone manufacturers know better since they have tiny sensors, but if show me a "smart charger" that comes with a temperature sensor I'll show you one one that won't sell.

Another note. My friendly spare parts shop (in Europe) was happy to pull out his equipment to diagnose a recent faulty GS battery, and give me not less than three choices for a replacement. Of course the situation is different in Thailand. Moral of the story - IMHO - batteries are strange animals - treat them with respect and put up with them, or be ready to pay up every time.

Edited August 23, 2015 by paz

[menzies233]

Never had an issue with CTEK chargers on my batteries, though my batteries are the maintenance free type. Perhaps go that route and ditch the wet, lead acid one.

Well the Yuasa is maintenance free too, you buy it dry with a separate pack containing the acid, you mix the two together and then clip on the "Non removable" battery cell plate, so maintenance free just a bit of DIY to get you started, then charge for about 5-8 hours at about 1.2A.

As I said in the original post my cheapo Thai charger puts out an AC ripple at 50Hz. on top of the DC charge, it is about 0.7V AC - The CTEK is completely DC, no ripple at all.

I was worried that the AC has done some damage.

Cheers.

[menzies233]

First thing....Do not trust the ampere meter on any of those chargers. You need a half decent test meter to double check the current. Was it really putting AC onto the battery or is it an AC component on top of the DC. This is common as they are normally a very crude rectifier with no regulation which is why you must never use them on a sealed type battery that Gary was talking about. Reckon to charge batteries at 10% of capacity as a rough guide, in your case 0.6A or so. If they are getting rather warm then you are over doing it. As a matter of interest, once charged, leave it for a day and check to see if it has self discharged in that time. If it has then you know the plates are damaged and debris has fallen off them forming a sediment in the bottom.

If you have a hydrometer handy, check the S.G of the electrolyte, a charged battery should be 1.250 or more.

You are correct it is a 50Hz. Ripple of about 0.7V AC on top of the DC. Agree too, the charger is horribly crude and buzzes and keeps fluctuating the current anywhere from maybe 3 A to off the scale (+10A) Won't be using it again, that was why I bought the Ctek, it is rated at 0.8A with 6 stages of charge and battery care.

I charged the truck battery with it and it took two days but the truck battery behaves the same as the bike, it spends a long time at the absorption stage (it is a pretty new battery)

[menzies233]

First thing....Do not trust the ampere meter on any of those chargers. You need a half decent test meter to double check the current. Was it really putting AC onto the battery or is it an AC component on top of the DC. This is common as they are normally a very crude rectifier with no regulation which is why you must never use them on a sealed type battery that Gary was talking about. Reckon to charge batteries at 10% of capacity as a rough guide, in your case 0.6A or so. If they are getting rather warm then you are over doing it. As a matter of interest, once charged, leave it for a day and check to see if it has self discharged in that time. If it has then you know the plates are damaged and debris has fallen off them forming a sediment in the bottom.

If you have a hydrometer handy, check the S.G of the electrolyte, a charged battery should be 1.250 or more.

Absolutely correct technical advice. But some aspects contrast a little with the practical side of things in 2015.

Short version - if your battery works be happy with it and don't spend further time reading

Measurement of electrolyte physical characteristic (density for charge state and temperature for charge progress) have become a lost art, killed by electronics. Measuring density and temperature (at the risk of burning a piece of clothing) makes little sense in a time where liquid electrolyte is becoming rarer every day, and electronic diagnosis is way easier. On the other side of things these cheap so-called smart chargers only measure two units - current absorption (amperage) and intensity (voltage),, recorded over time (a short time) to ascertain or guess what the battery is really doing. Do people knows that safe and optimal battery charge (especially for quick charging) requires temperature monitoring, and since Thailand is -on average- hotter than the countries where these are sold mostly, it can easily overcharge a battery? Of course not, that is just information overwhelming. In that sense cellphone manufacturers know better since they have tiny sensors, but if show me a "smart charger" that comes with a temperature sensor I'll show you one one that won't sell.

Another note. My friendly spare parts shop (in Europe) was happy to pull out his equipment to diagnose a recent faulty GS battery, and give me not less than three choices for a replacement. Of course the situation is different in Thailand. Moral of the story - IMHO - batteries are strange animals - treat them with respect and put up with them, or be ready to pay up every time.

Again I totally agree, temperature is absolutely critical with batteries here. Back in the cold North of England I have had motors for maybe 10 years and more and never had to change a battery - here in the hot climate I am having to change my truck battery after maybe 2 years, and these are genuine Toyota costing almost 80 quid a piece for a 100 A/H part. They just lose all capacity to hold a charge after a year or so.

[Dellboy218]

First thing....Do not trust the ampere meter on any of those chargers. You need a half decent test meter to double check the current. Was it really putting AC onto the battery or is it an AC component on top of the DC. This is common as they are normally a very crude rectifier with no regulation which is why you must never use them on a sealed type battery that Gary was talking about. Reckon to charge batteries at 10% of capacity as a rough guide, in your case 0.6A or so. If they are getting rather warm then you are over doing it. As a matter of interest, once charged, leave it for a day and check to see if it has self discharged in that time. If it has then you know the plates are damaged and debris has fallen off them forming a sediment in the bottom.

If you have a hydrometer handy, check the S.G of the electrolyte, a charged battery should be 1.250 or more.

Absolutely correct technical advice. But some aspects contrast a little with the practical side of things in 2015.

Short version - if your battery works be happy with it and don't spend further time reading

Measurement of electrolyte physical characteristic (density for charge state and temperature for charge progress) have become a lost art, killed by electronics. Measuring density and temperature (at the risk of burning a piece of clothing) makes little sense in a time where liquid electrolyte is becoming rarer every day, and electronic diagnosis is way easier. On the other side of things these cheap so-called smart chargers only measure two units - current absorption (amperage) and intensity (voltage),, recorded over time (a short time) to ascertain or guess what the battery is really doing. Do people knows that safe and optimal battery charge (especially for quick charging) requires temperature monitoring, and since Thailand is -on average- hotter than the countries where these are sold mostly, it can easily overcharge a battery? Of course not, that is just information overwhelming. In that sense cellphone manufacturers know better since they have tiny sensors, but if show me a "smart charger" that comes with a temperature sensor I'll show you one one that won't sell.

Another note. My friendly spare parts shop (in Europe) was happy to pull out his equipment to diagnose a recent faulty GS battery, and give me not less than three choices for a replacement. Of course the situation is different in Thailand. Moral of the story - IMHO - batteries are strange animals - treat them with respect and put up with them, or be ready to pay up every time.

Again I totally agree, temperature is absolutely critical with batteries here. Back in the cold North of England I have had motors for maybe 10 years and more and never had to change a battery - here in the hot climate I am having to change my truck battery after maybe 2 years, and these are genuine Toyota costing almost 80 quid a piece for a 100 A/H part. They just lose all capacity to hold a charge after a year or so.

If the OP's battery charger was jumping like that and it isn't the battery then there is a dudd connection or component in there somewhere. As a thought, put a spare 12 volt lamp on it and see if it still jumps around and or whether the lamp brilliance alters, just in case its the meter circuit. I have had a couple of locally made chargers, the meter read double what my clamp meters were reading.

Going off topic a little..........

I get about 5 years out of the battery in my Toyota. I wonder if your local Toyota lads are topping your battery for you and using crappy water? Just a thought! In the temperatures round here I top up every 3 months or so and tend to overfill as the water does evaporate rather quickly.

[menzies233]

First thing....Do not trust the ampere meter on any of those chargers. You need a half decent test meter to double check the current. Was it really putting AC onto the battery or is it an AC component on top of the DC. This is common as they are normally a very crude rectifier with no regulation which is why you must never use them on a sealed type battery that Gary was talking about. Reckon to charge batteries at 10% of capacity as a rough guide, in your case 0.6A or so. If they are getting rather warm then you are over doing it. As a matter of interest, once charged, leave it for a day and check to see if it has self discharged in that time. If it has then you know the plates are damaged and debris has fallen off them forming a sediment in the bottom.

If you have a hydrometer handy, check the S.G of the electrolyte, a charged battery should be 1.250 or more.

Absolutely correct technical advice. But some aspects contrast a little with the practical side of things in 2015.

Short version - if your battery works be happy with it and don't spend further time reading

Measurement of electrolyte physical characteristic (density for charge state and temperature for charge progress) have become a lost art, killed by electronics. Measuring density and temperature (at the risk of burning a piece of clothing) makes little sense in a time where liquid electrolyte is becoming rarer every day, and electronic diagnosis is way easier. On the other side of things these cheap so-called smart chargers only measure two units - current absorption (amperage) and intensity (voltage),, recorded over time (a short time) to ascertain or guess what the battery is really doing. Do people knows that safe and optimal battery charge (especially for quick charging) requires temperature monitoring, and since Thailand is -on average- hotter than the countries where these are sold mostly, it can easily overcharge a battery? Of course not, that is just information overwhelming. In that sense cellphone manufacturers know better since they have tiny sensors, but if show me a "smart charger" that comes with a temperature sensor I'll show you one one that won't sell.

Another note. My friendly spare parts shop (in Europe) was happy to pull out his equipment to diagnose a recent faulty GS battery, and give me not less than three choices for a replacement. Of course the situation is different in Thailand. Moral of the story - IMHO - batteries are strange animals - treat them with respect and put up with them, or be ready to pay up every time.

Again I totally agree, temperature is absolutely critical with batteries here. Back in the cold North of England I have had motors for maybe 10 years and more and never had to change a battery - here in the hot climate I am having to change my truck battery after maybe 2 years, and these are genuine Toyota costing almost 80 quid a piece for a 100 A/H part. They just lose all capacity to hold a charge after a year or so.

If the OP's battery charger was jumping like that and it isn't the battery then there is a dudd connection or component in there somewhere. As a thought, put a spare 12 volt lamp on it and see if it still jumps around and or whether the lamp brilliance alters, just in case its the meter circuit. I have had a couple of locally made chargers, the meter read double what my clamp meters were reading.

Going off topic a little..........

I get about 5 years out of the battery in my Toyota. I wonder if your local Toyota lads are topping your battery for you and using crappy water? Just a thought! In the temperatures round here I top up every 3 months or so and tend to overfill as the water does evaporate rather quickly.

I take care of my batteries myself, you cannot trust Toyota to do anything correctly, nor Honda nor no one. If you want it done properly do it yourself.

I believe it is the garbage Thai battery charger, the CTEK is at least consistent, it is just a bit slow - The Thai charger can be heard buzzing and cooking itself over and over, it gets real hot and the current is all over the place.

I only ever use the purple distilled water from sealed bottles, still never managed to get 5 years on any battery here. ( I have had at least two genuine Toyota, GMAX, Yuasa, now I am back to Yuasa for the Toyota)

As for Toyota, I could not be bothered to crawl under it the other week to drain the oil, I needed a ball joint changing at the same time so I just asked them to change the joint, oil and filter at the same time. Thought nothing about it at the time but after about 1 month I pulled the air filter to wash it out and checked the dipstick, the bloody oil must be almost half to 3/4's of an inch OVER THE FULL MARK! - unbelievable.

Honda - I took my kids MSX in for a new front brake disk, (warped - I think the little git has being doing stoppies) - I asked the techs there if I could buy a tube of Loctite Blue thread lock, they hadn't a clue what I was on about.

I watched them dismantle and reassemble the front disk, they used no threadlock whatsoever, but used a hammer and an impact driver to "Set The Correct Torque" - they didn't even have a torque wrench!

When I kept on about locking the threads on bolts, the manager came over and showed me a "Liquid Weld" two part epoxy!!!!! .

Also Delboy, I ran the Ctek over an extended period on the older failed Toyota battery and after initially showing about 13.7 V it dropped to about 10V after 2 days, so I think you are correct, there is obviously a dead cell or a short in there somewhere.

When my third Toyota battery died after 2 years, I measured the voltage when charging and it was somewhere around 15.7 Volts, showed this to the techies at Toyota and they said it was fine, to me it seemed as though the alternator was putting out a bit too much voltage, I was expecting less than 15V, maybe 14.8 max?

Cheers.

Edited August 29, 2015 by menzies233

[Dellboy218]

Does sound a bit high doesn't it. Should be some info somewhere as to what it should be. Have you ever tried washing a battery out? Swilling it out to remove sediment. Only been successful once myself but my father used to tell me tales of it being a common thing to do in the 40's and early 50's when he and his brother had a dozen Aerials.

[tingtongfarang]

When i bought a new battery for the cbr 250 it came with the rack of tubes to fill in the acid, i assumed they are dry charged and just need a few minutes after filling before ready for use, i never charged it...it started first push of the button,

I think you cooked an already dry charged battery.

[menzies233]

When i bought a new battery for the cbr 250 it came with the rack of tubes to fill in the acid, i assumed they are dry charged and just need a few minutes after filling before ready for use, i never charged it...it started first push of the button,

I think you cooked an already dry charged battery.

The battery I bought comes with the add in acid, exactly the same as you mention. If you read the instructions from Yuasa, you will see you need to charge that battery for a minimum of about 6-8 hours on a 1.2A charge before using it. If you do not do this in the first place the battery will never maintain charge correctly and is buggered even before you start, in my opinion, using it and starting your bike after a few minutes of adding the acid without charging says to me, You have COOKED your own battery.

[tingtongfarang]

When i bought a new battery for the cbr 250 it came with the rack of tubes to fill in the acid, i assumed they are dry charged and just need a few minutes after filling before ready for use, i never charged it...it started first push of the button,

I think you cooked an already dry charged battery.

The battery I bought comes with the add in acid, exactly the same as you mention. If you read the instructions from Yuasa, you will see you need to charge that battery for a minimum of about 6-8 hours on a 1.2A charge before using it. If you do not do this in the first place the battery will never maintain charge correctly and is buggered even before you start, in my opinion, using it and starting your bike after a few minutes of adding the acid without charging says to me, You have COOKED your own battery.

Could be right, but mine is still going strong after 18months,

Checked just now after reading your post, did,nt use the bike for nearly a week and it reads 12.4 volts, i have no idea how accurate this digital voltage meter is.

Edited September 4, 2015 by tingtongfarang

[Dellboy218]

When i bought a new battery for the cbr 250 it came with the rack of tubes to fill in the acid, i assumed they are dry charged and just need a few minutes after filling before ready for use, i never charged it...it started first push of the button,

I think you cooked an already dry charged battery.

The battery I bought comes with the add in acid, exactly the same as you mention. If you read the instructions from Yuasa, you will see you need to charge that battery for a minimum of about 6-8 hours on a 1.2A charge before using it. If you do not do this in the first place the battery will never maintain charge correctly and is buggered even before you start, in my opinion, using it and starting your bike after a few minutes of adding the acid without charging says to me, You have COOKED your own battery.

Could be right, but mine is still going strong after 18months,

Checked just now after reading your post, did,nt use the bike for nearly a week and it reads 12.4 volts, i have no idea how accurate this digital voltage meter is.

Normally a digi meter works within its parameters or it does not work at all. The difference with an expensive one is how much abuse it can take and still work. Now you have done that, test the battery again with a load, turn the lights on or similar. See how much the battery voltage drops. A good battery should only drop a bit and still allow enough to start the bike. If the voltage collapses then you know at least one cell is open and acting like a capacitor, the battery when tested as you have done may continue to show a good voltage off load as the self discharge rate may be reduced. Testing it whilst on load will give you the answer.

This is basically how many ''battery testers'' work, you tell the box what the capacity of the battery is and what load so it know what the voltage drop should be.

There are many web pages on the subject, this one http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/437-activating-dry-charged-batteries from a battery maker suggest leaving the battery 90 minutes to allow the electrolyte to permeate and then a low charge.

[menzies233]

When i bought a new battery for the cbr 250 it came with the rack of tubes to fill in the acid, i assumed they are dry charged and just need a few minutes after filling before ready for use, i never charged it...it started first push of the button,

I think you cooked an already dry charged battery.

The battery I bought comes with the add in acid, exactly the same as you mention. If you read the instructions from Yuasa, you will see you need to charge that battery for a minimum of about 6-8 hours on a 1.2A charge before using it. If you do not do this in the first place the battery will never maintain charge correctly and is buggered even before you start, in my opinion, using it and starting your bike after a few minutes of adding the acid without charging says to me, You have COOKED your own battery.

Could be right, but mine is still going strong after 18months,

Checked just now after reading your post, did,nt use the bike for nearly a week and it reads 12.4 volts, i have no idea how accurate this digital voltage meter is.

Maybe you are lucky, but as Dellboy says, check it under load. I had a car battery that appeared perfect when you measure it with a Voltmeter as it stood but when the engine was cranked it was a disaster waiting to happen. Guess there are two outcomes from this (but if you have had 18 months out of your battery then it looks like yours is the better one) -

1: Risk overcharging, sulphating the plates= dead battety

2: Not correctly charging the battery initially, = battery will never hold a charge.

Seems like from your experience (and probably mine two, option one does a lot more damage than option 2!

[Dellboy218]

Just in case anyone needed convincing. My locally made charger. The ammeter goes to 20A, that is rather optimistic as the battery cables look like they would be suitable for 10A max. Although it is reading 20A my clamp meter reckons its just over 6! At 12A my clampmeter says its just over 3. What the AC ripple on top is doing would be anyones guess without having a scope or graphic meter handy. If the error was the other way around this would certainly give you problems on a small battery, always best to check.