Bars/restaurants for sale and restrictions on trade

[Chiengmaijoe]

September is one of the quietest months for trade in tourist-oriented businesses in Chiang Mai and so it's normal to see businesses for sale at this time of year. With the uncertainty over opening hours, proposed restrictions on selling alcohol near schools and colleges, and a general clampdown as regards to advertising and various other regulations, I'm surprised that more places aren't for sale.

I know of a buyer up from Phuket that was very interested in a going-concern on Loi Kroh rd, which he wanted to turn into a decent restaurant, but gave up when he heard about the proposed restrictions as regards to the 300 metre rule. It seems to me that those places looking to sell now are going to find buyers very hard to come by. The great thing is that some of those trying to sell will still be asking for ridiculous prices!

Something that seems hard to figure out is the reason behind the strict clamp-down in Chiang Mai compared to other popular tourist destinations. I have heard various theories as to why Chiang Mai is being targeted, but none that sound too convincing. So, despite this being the time of year for off-loading a struggling business, are there any buyers out there, and if not, are sellers going to drop their prices? A bar I saw for sale at 2.5m baht suggests otherwise.

[MaeJoMTB]

Don't know about that,

My local coffee shop lady is run off her feet with all the Chinese tour groups here this month, buying breakfasts and coffee.

Her busiest month and year ever ...............................

[Chiengmaijoe]

Don't know about that,

My local coffee shop lady is run off her feet with all the Chinese tour groups here this month, buying breakfasts and coffee.

Her busiest month and year ever ...............................

Good to know, but coffee shops are not affected by rules and regulations that are restricting the sale of alcohol and are not the subject of this topic.

[MaeJoMTB]

Don't know about that,

My local coffee shop lady is run off her feet with all the Chinese tour groups here this month, buying breakfasts and coffee.

Her busiest month and year ever ...............................

Good to know, but coffee shops are not affected by rules and regulations that are restricting the sale of alcohol and are not the subject of this topic.

It was just a suggestion that elderly white drunks may no longer be a viable target customer grouping in Chiang Mai.

Open that restaurant, but target the eating, smoothie, coffee consumers.

As far as I can see the mark up on coffee and smoothies is way higher than beer.

And there appear to be no restrictions on opening hours.

Edited September 21, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[PostmanPat]

The Original Poster asks the very pertinent question.....Why? Why everything has to close at Midnight? Why the Police come around harrassing heavy handedly at 11.30. Why do they not seem to realise that this attitude will have a significantly detrimental effect on tourism in the longer term. I am not a "blogger" but am reliably informed that those who travel then pass on tips to others following behind are now saying:

"Chiang Mai? Dont go there if you want fun. Its shit now because everything has to close at Midnight..."

I was in BKK for the weekend just gone, and its same as ever......bars,pubs, restaurants, music venues, open until well past midnight, nightclubs and discos open until at least 4am, then street food accompanied by beer and cocktails ( if you want it....too much for me!) until breakfast time, and all the time, police taking absolutely no notice and in fact condoning it !!

So the OP is right, "WHY" is the question?

[Chiengmaijoe]

Don't know about that,

My local coffee shop lady is run off her feet with all the Chinese tour groups here this month, buying breakfasts and coffee.

Her busiest month and year ever ...............................

Good to know, but coffee shops are not affected by rules and regulations that are restricting the sale of alcohol and are not the subject of this topic.

It was just a suggestion that elderly white drunks may no longer be a viable target customer grouping in Chiang Mai.

Open that restaurant, but target the eating, smoothie, coffee consumers.

As far as I can see the mark up on coffee and smoothies is way higher than beer.

And there appear to be no restrictions on opening hours.

And if the topic was asking for suggestions as to which business to go into, that too would be a great reply. But is isn't, so it isn't.

By the way, plenty of bars/pubs and restaurants make a decent living without elderly white drunks. They weren't the subject of the topic either.

[Chiengmaijoe]

The Original Poster asks the very pertinent question.....Why? Why everything has to close at Midnight? Why the Police come around harrassing heavy handedly at 11.30. Why do they not seem to realise that this attitude will have a significantly detrimental effect on tourism in the longer term. I am not a "blogger" but am reliably informed that those who travel then pass on tips to others following behind are now saying:

"Chiang Mai? Dont go there if you want fun. Its shit now because everything has to close at Midnight..."

I was in BKK for the weekend just gone, and its same as ever......bars,pubs, restaurants, music venues, open until well past midnight, nightclubs and discos open until at least 4am, then street food accompanied by beer and cocktails ( if you want it....too much for me!) until breakfast time, and all the time, police taking absolutely no notice and in fact condoning it !!

So the OP is right, "WHY" is the question?

Some guys up from Hong Kong for the weekend asked me where they could watch the late rugby world cup games. The answer? "I have absolutely no idea". Expats from Bangkok and Phuket are equally surprised at the early closing hours. I heard that Good View was closed at midnight on Saturday last week, with the place full of people watching Man. Utd v Liverpool.

The 'why' of that was certainly part of my post, but I'm also interested to see how it affects those trying to sell a bar/restaurant at this time. Alcohol sales are a big part of restaurant trade too.

[lovelomsak]

I donot wish to change the topic or take it off track but I think the reason Chiang Mai is going through this is it is known as Red shirt country. The powers that be are just making it tough for business's there.They are sending a message that Chiang mai can and will be heavily policed. Bars are the easiest target for this action

[Chiengmaijoe]

I donot wish to change the topic or take it off track but I think the reason Chiang Mai is going through this is it is known as Red shirt country. The powers that be are just making it tough for business's there.They are sending a message that Chiang mai can and will be heavily policed. Bars are the easiest target for this action

That isn't off topic, but part of it. You put forward an interesting but predictable view that I hear quite often, but I'm not convinced about it. I can understand punishing certain politicians or influential persons from here, but ultimately, Chiang Mai people will still have a vote and I'm sure the army are aware of that. Are bars and restaurants being similarly treated in the red shirt stronghold of Issan, I wonder?

I am used to stories of Loi Kroh being targeted as that has been on and off for years, but the city-wide nature of this clampdown is pretty new. Especially when places like Goodview get closed early.

The music bar up for sale at 2.5m intrigued me too. In the current circumstances I would have thought that if you really want to sell a bar, then you are probably best to try to get whatever you can. The worst case scenario is ending up having to walk out, and end up trying to sell your fixtures for whatever you can get. I've seen that happen a few times.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Chiengmaijoe

[PostmanPat]

I donot wish to change the topic or take it off track but I think the reason Chiang Mai is going through this is it is known as Red shirt country. The powers that be are just making it tough for business's there.They are sending a message that Chiang mai can and will be heavily policed. Bars are the easiest target for this action

This is a myth about hitting "Red Shirt Territory" hard. Theyre doing it all over Thailand, I know for a fact having been there with my son on holiday that theyre doing it in Pai and Phayao, and also many other places, so its not a "Chiang Mai Red Shirt Revenge" thing, its all over the Country except Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket !!!

But WHY ?? Why dont they tell us?

[Chiengmaijoe]

I donot wish to change the topic or take it off track but I think the reason Chiang Mai is going through this is it is known as Red shirt country. The powers that be are just making it tough for business's there.They are sending a message that Chiang mai can and will be heavily policed. Bars are the easiest target for this action

This is a myth about hitting "Red Shirt Territory" hard. Theyre doing it all over Thailand, I know for a fact having been there with my son on holiday that theyre doing it in Pai and Phayao, and also many other places, so its not a "Chiang Mai Red Shirt Revenge" thing, its all over the Country except Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket !!!

But WHY ?? Why dont they tell us?

If it is nationwide except 'tourist destinations', which some people suggest, then why is Chiang Mai not exempt?

[Motown239]

Interesting topic, I never visited Vietnam.

[heybruce]

The Original Poster asks the very pertinent question.....Why? Why everything has to close at Midnight? Why the Police come around harrassing heavy handedly at 11.30. Why do they not seem to realise that this attitude will have a significantly detrimental effect on tourism in the longer term. I am not a "blogger" but am reliably informed that those who travel then pass on tips to others following behind are now saying:

"Chiang Mai? Dont go there if you want fun. Its shit now because everything has to close at Midnight..."

I was in BKK for the weekend just gone, and its same as ever......bars,pubs, restaurants, music venues, open until well past midnight, nightclubs and discos open until at least 4am, then street food accompanied by beer and cocktails ( if you want it....too much for me!) until breakfast time, and all the time, police taking absolutely no notice and in fact condoning it !!

So the OP is right, "WHY" is the question?

I assume that enforcing closing times in Bangkok and some of the southern resort areas would be an inconvenience to the "quality people" currently running the country. Evidently there are no quality people in Chiang Mai so rules are being strictly enforced here.

[Chiengmaijoe]

Interesting topic, I never visited Vietnam.

I'll make a note of that. Thanks for letting us know.

If this topic was "Who has been to Vietnam", your response would, by far, be the best we've had.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Chiengmaijoe

[LivinLOS]

I donot wish to change the topic or take it off track but I think the reason Chiang Mai is going through this is it is known as Red shirt country. The powers that be are just making it tough for business's there.They are sending a message that Chiang mai can and will be heavily policed. Bars are the easiest target for this action

This is a myth about hitting "Red Shirt Territory" hard. Theyre doing it all over Thailand, I know for a fact having been there with my son on holiday that theyre doing it in Pai and Phayao, and also many other places, so its not a "Chiang Mai Red Shirt Revenge" thing, its all over the Country except Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket !!!

But WHY ?? Why dont they tell us?

Erm they are both other red areas..

Phuket yellow.. 4 am

Hua Hin (middle dem leaning) 2am but effectively as long as the OAPs there want.

Patts (mixture) 2 - 4 am.. Even later for some discos.

Bangkok (yellow controlled, red outskirts) 1 am- ish..

Udon Red (midnight to 1am)

Korat Red (12:30 to 1) dont know it well.

Chiang Mai Red (midnight).

You dont see a pattern ??

[Chiengmaijoe]

I donot wish to change the topic or take it off track but I think the reason Chiang Mai is going through this is it is known as Red shirt country. The powers that be are just making it tough for business's there.They are sending a message that Chiang mai can and will be heavily policed. Bars are the easiest target for this action

This is a myth about hitting "Red Shirt Territory" hard. Theyre doing it all over Thailand, I know for a fact having been there with my son on holiday that theyre doing it in Pai and Phayao, and also many other places, so its not a "Chiang Mai Red Shirt Revenge" thing, its all over the Country except Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket !!!

But WHY ?? Why dont they tell us?

Erm they are both other red areas..

Phuket yellow.. 4 am

Hua Hin (middle dem leaning) 2am but effectively as long as the OAPs there want.

Patts (mixture) 2 - 4 am.. Even later for some discos.

Bangkok (yellow controlled, red outskirts) 1 am- ish..

Udon Red (midnight to 1am)

Korat Red (12:30 to 1) dont know it well.

Chiang Mai Red (midnight).

You dont see a pattern ??

But what would be the reasoning behind it, if it were colour based? Control, punishment?

[LivinLOS]

It was just a suggestion that elderly white drunks may no longer be a viable target customer grouping in Chiang Mai.

Open that restaurant, but target the eating, smoothie, coffee consumers.

As far as I can see the mark up on coffee and smoothies is way higher than beer.

And there appear to be no restrictions on opening hours.

But it isnt just the 'elderly white drunks' or even just the bars themselves..

3 or 4 years ago the new beer gardens springing up on middle ring rd were doing good trade.. Live music in many.. Lots of punters, beer girls, etc.. Around promenda (my exit from the city) some of them were jumping and 100s of people there when I would come home at 1 or 2 ish.. Kiss wang deang nightlcub was heaving with people, 100s out there and 4am also, lots of money being spent..

Along with all that trade was 100s of food stalls and other sideline biz along the roads which catered to the night customers.. Now theres barely a noodle stall all along the 1317.. Monkey has shut.. Kiss wang deang has gone.. Those middle ring road places are a ghost town, no more bands playing.

Thats a lot of people losing a lot of income.

[LivinLOS]

But what would be the reasoning behind it, if it were colour based? Control, punishment?

er.. you think ???

This is vote for us and get handouts (rubber farmers subsidy) dont vote for us and get crapped on (no water for your rice, stop planting your crops, bangkok metropolitan wants to hose down the streets and we must have shiny Mercedes)..

If you cant see that the implementation of policy falls down the color divide I think your being willfully ignorant. When the police tried to ignore the top down commands that they had to impose on the local community they got transferred.

Too many of these to think this is by chance.

[Chiengmaijoe]

It was just a suggestion that elderly white drunks may no longer be a viable target customer grouping in Chiang Mai.

Open that restaurant, but target the eating, smoothie, coffee consumers.

As far as I can see the mark up on coffee and smoothies is way higher than beer.

And there appear to be no restrictions on opening hours.

But it isnt just the 'elderly white drunks' or even just the bars themselves..

3 or 4 years ago the new beer gardens springing up on middle ring rd were doing good trade.. Live music in many.. Lots of punters, beer girls, etc.. Around promenda (my exit from the city) some of them were jumping and 100s of people there when I would come home at 1 or 2 ish.. Kiss wang deang nightlcub was heaving with people, 100s out there and 4am also, lots of money being spent..

Along with all that trade was 100s of food stalls and other sideline biz along the roads which catered to the night customers.. Now theres barely a noodle stall all along the 1317.. Monkey has shut.. Kiss wang deang has gone.. Those middle ring road places are a ghost town, no more bands playing.

Thats a lot of people losing a lot of income.

At The White House restaurant on Chm-Lamphun rd I was asked for ID to get in, presumably to establish that I was over 20. In poor lighting I might pass for a young 50yr old, so I accepted the flattery. My wife says some of the places nearby are struggling now that midnight closing and under 20s being barred is being strictly enforced.

[PostmanPat]

I donot wish to change the topic or take it off track but I think the reason Chiang Mai is going through this is it is known as Red shirt country. The powers that be are just making it tough for business's there.They are sending a message that Chiang mai can and will be heavily policed. Bars are the easiest target for this action

This is a myth about hitting "Red Shirt Territory" hard. Theyre doing it all over Thailand, I know for a fact having been there with my son on holiday that theyre doing it in Pai and Phayao, and also many other places, so its not a "Chiang Mai Red Shirt Revenge" thing, its all over the Country except Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket !!!

But WHY ?? Why dont they tell us?

Erm they are both other red areas..

Phuket yellow.. 4 am

Hua Hin (middle dem leaning) 2am but effectively as long as the OAPs there want.

Patts (mixture) 2 - 4 am.. Even later for some discos.

Bangkok (yellow controlled, red outskirts) 1 am- ish..

Udon Red (midnight to 1am)

Korat Red (12:30 to 1) dont know it well.

Chiang Mai Red (midnight).

You dont see a pattern ??

Blimey, LivinginLOS, your paranoid conspiracy theories are worse than mine!! So the closing times are worked out using a sliderule and based on the percentage redshirt support in each place??!!

Total tosh but at least a theory even though its wrong !!

[Chiengmaijoe]

But what would be the reasoning behind it, if it were colour based? Control, punishment?

er.. you think ???

This is vote for us and get handouts (rubber farmers subsidy) dont vote for us and get crapped on (no water for your rice, stop planting your crops, bangkok metropolitan wants to hose down the streets and we must have shiny Mercedes)..

If you cant see that the implementation of policy falls down the color divide I think your being willfully ignorant. When the police tried to ignore the top down commands that they had to impose on the local community they got transferred.

Too many of these to think this is by chance.

How much thought did you give your reply? If I was being willfully ignorant then by definition I wouldn't be raising the issue.

[OneZero]

But what would be the reasoning behind it, if it were colour based? Control, punishment?

er.. you think ???

This is vote for us and get handouts (rubber farmers subsidy) dont vote for us and get crapped on (no water for your rice, stop planting your crops, bangkok metropolitan wants to hose down the streets and we must have shiny Mercedes)..

If you cant see that the implementation of policy falls down the color divide I think your being willfully ignorant. When the police tried to ignore the top down commands that they had to impose on the local community they got transferred.

Too many of these to think this is by chance.

...and why does BKK Immigration refuse to grant Chiang Mai Immigration the resources it needs to handle the customer load efficiently? In turn, why does Chiang mai Immigration too inflexible to implement continuous process improvements during this period of denied resources (such as training whatever personnel resources are still available so they can be shifted to other desks as workload changes, improving the old now defunct online queing system, etc). Is there a good old fued going on between BKK and Chiang Mai, with both sides too stubborn to compromise?

[Chicog]

Whatever the reason, I'm skipping a trip I'd normally make over an Eid holiday. Not worth flying all the way from the Middle East to CM to essentially get told that I can't be trusted to be out late and that I have to go home like a good boy.

I can stay up later in three or four Gulf countries.

I hope they've grown up by the time Xmas comes or I'll probably try one of Thailand's neighbours for a change.

And yes, I'm sure there are some tired old residents jolly happy about that, but I'm actually one of Chiang Mai's supporters and I spend a fair bit when I'm in town.

If they really want it to be just for teatotal Chinese tour groups that like early nights, just admit it and I'll happily jog on somewhere else.

[LivinLOS]

I donot wish to change the topic or take it off track but I think the reason Chiang Mai is going through this is it is known as Red shirt country. The powers that be are just making it tough for business's there.They are sending a message that Chiang mai can and will be heavily policed. Bars are the easiest target for this action

This is a myth about hitting "Red Shirt Territory" hard. Theyre doing it all over Thailand, I know for a fact having been there with my son on holiday that theyre doing it in Pai and Phayao, and also many other places, so its not a "Chiang Mai Red Shirt Revenge" thing, its all over the Country except Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket !!!

But WHY ?? Why dont they tell us?

Erm they are both other red areas..

Phuket yellow.. 4 am

Hua Hin (middle dem leaning) 2am but effectively as long as the OAPs there want.

Patts (mixture) 2 - 4 am.. Even later for some discos.

Bangkok (yellow controlled, red outskirts) 1 am- ish..

Udon Red (midnight to 1am)

Korat Red (12:30 to 1) dont know it well.

Chiang Mai Red (midnight).

You dont see a pattern ??

Blimey, LivinginLOS, your paranoid conspiracy theories are worse than mine!! So the closing times are worked out using a sliderule and based on the percentage redshirt support in each place??!!

Total tosh but at least a theory even though its wrong !!

No slide rule involved..

Thailand is country that runs on nepotism and clan connections.. A country where favors and support are paid back in roundabout ways.. A country where laws and rules are very selectively enforced..

You mean its total co-incidence that Shin heartland is having rules applied that are economically painful ?? And Sutheps south is possibly the latest in the country ??

I suppose (mostly southern) rubber farmers getting the same subsidy deal they howled as being illegal when given to the Northern rice farmers is total co-incidence ?? Theres no element of reward or payback in that at all ??

[PostmanPat]

Right. So every working person in the tourism industry is a Red Shirt who deserves to be punished? Every person who runs a restaurant, or a coffee shop, or a person who is a tour guide, or who sells tours to tourists, who is currently starting to fall down the slippery slope through reducing tourist numbers they all, every one of them deserve to be punished??

My partner is a tour guide/ tour arranger and is not a Red Shirt and her numbers are significantly down. Before anyone says it by the way,Chinese tourists dont buy tours they rent bikes and do it all themselves. My partner has not done one baht of trade with the Chinese tourists.

[MaeJoMTB]

My partner has not done one baht of trade with the Chinese tourists.

Does she speak Chinese?

[PostmanPat]

My partner has not done one baht of trade with the Chinese tourists.

Does she speak Chinese?

Clever clever. No she doesnt speak Chinese but then she doesnt speak French, German, Hebrew, Flemish, Dutch either but she still gets lots of work from them, OK?

[robblok]

My partner has not done one baht of trade with the Chinese tourists.

Does she speak Chinese?

Clever clever. No she doesnt speak Chinese but then she doesnt speak French, German, Hebrew, Flemish, Dutch either but she still gets lots of work from them, OK?

Most of these people do speak English, Chinese especially the cheap group tours won't speak much English.

*edit* read she is a tour operator, the Chinese prefer to arrange it themselves and safe a few baht. Seasoned tourists do the same thing. But i can understand its annoying.

Edited September 21, 2015 by robblok

[worgeordie]

It was just a suggestion that elderly white drunks may no longer be a viable target customer grouping in Chiang Mai.

Open that restaurant, but target the eating, smoothie, coffee consumers.

As far as I can see the mark up on coffee and smoothies is way higher than beer.

And there appear to be no restrictions on opening hours.

But it isnt just the 'elderly white drunks' or even just the bars themselves..

3 or 4 years ago the new beer gardens springing up on middle ring rd were doing good trade.. Live music in many.. Lots of punters, beer girls, etc.. Around promenda (my exit from the city) some of them were jumping and 100s of people there when I would come home at 1 or 2 ish.. Kiss wang deang nightlcub was heaving with people, 100s out there and 4am also, lots of money being spent..

Along with all that trade was 100s of food stalls and other sideline biz along the roads which catered to the night customers.. Now theres barely a noodle stall all along the 1317.. Monkey has shut.. Kiss wang deang has gone.. Those middle ring road places are a ghost town, no more bands playing.

Thats a lot of people losing a lot of income.

At The White House restaurant on Chm-Lamphun rd I was asked for ID to get in, presumably to establish that I was over 20. In poor lighting I might pass for a young 50yr old, so I accepted the flattery. My wife says some of the places nearby are struggling now that midnight closing and under 20s being barred is being strictly enforced.

It must have been VERY dark Joe,but it must have made your evening.

regards Worgeordie

[heybruce]

Right. So every working person in the tourism industry is a Red Shirt who deserves to be punished? Every person who runs a restaurant, or a coffee shop, or a person who is a tour guide, or who sells tours to tourists, who is currently starting to fall down the slippery slope through reducing tourist numbers they all, every one of them deserve to be punished??

My partner is a tour guide/ tour arranger and is not a Red Shirt and her numbers are significantly down. Before anyone says it by the way,Chinese tourists dont buy tours they rent bikes and do it all themselves. My partner has not done one baht of trade with the Chinese tourists.

I think restrictions on closing times do have something to do with Chiang Mai being perceived as a redshirt area. People who are not redshirts, like your partner, are collateral damage.

Can someone answer this--is it legal to require all these places to close at midnight? I thought the law allowed a lot of them to stay open until 1 a.m.