Chiang Mai or Chiang Rai - which future?

[bazza40]

Looking at the amount of infrastructure development going on around Chiang Rai, I can't help thinking the planners are looking north at where their hoped-for Chinese tourism will be transported most efficiently.

There are quite long highway choke points to Chiang Mai south at Lampang, and north at Doi Saket. In contrast, the road from Phrae through Phayao to Chiang Rai is relatively straightforward. Doi Saket through to the hot springs at Baan Nam Ronn is at least 40 minutes.

There seems to be little work being done on the Chiang Mai route, whereas a bypass to Chiang Rai airport has been built. The next step would presumably be a bypass of Mae Chan to Mae Sai.

Any thoughts?

[RichCor]

It's all fine if you love long-haul transport cargo trucks.

Not a lot of actual visitors since the Friendship Bridge #4 opened in Chiang Khong.

And while the papers are reporting land price increases, they also report very few 'locals' are profiting from the development of infrastructure as all the development is being done by deep-pocket foreign investors.

Add in the new high-speed transport train and it will turn this area into one large 'bypass'.

The overland 'tourists' are still only interested in Chiang Mai. Chiang Rai will only still be a 'rest stop' on the way there.

[cloudhopper]

They are going to build a new 4 lane divided highway between CM and CR. It will start on the outer ring road south of the 118 and cross midway between Doi Saket and Bo Sang heading E. I have seen the map from one of our neighbors whose house is going to be destroyed in the process. Construction is to begin in 4 years.

[Konini]

It's all fine if you love long-haul transport cargo trucks.

Not a lot of actual visitors since the Friendship Bridge #4 opened in Chiang Khong.

And while the papers are reporting land price increases, they also report very few 'locals' are profiting from the development of infrastructure as all the development is being done by deep-pocket foreign investors.

Add in the new high-speed transport train and it will turn this area into one large 'bypass'.

The overland 'tourists' are still only interested in Chiang Mai. Chiang Rai will only still be a 'rest stop' on the way there.

There was an interesting article about this in the Bangkok Post on either Saturday or Sunday.

[MESmith]

They are going to build a new 4 lane divided highway between CM and CR. It will start on the outer ring road south of the 118 and cross midway between Doi Saket and Bo Sang heading E. I have seen the map from one of our neighbors whose house is going to be destroyed in the process. Construction is to begin in 4 years.

Did you see which route it would take through the mountains? Surely, would be easier to expand 118 than build a new highway. Btw OP, the main road from CR to BKK does avoid CM. Hwy 1.

Edited January 7, 2016 by MESmith

[RichCor]

It's all fine if you love long-haul transport cargo trucks.

Not a lot of actual visitors since the Friendship Bridge #4 opened in Chiang Khong.

And while the papers are reporting land price increases, they also report very few 'locals' are profiting from the development of infrastructure as all the development is being done by deep-pocket foreign investors.

Add in the new high-speed transport train and it will turn this area into one large 'bypass'.

The overland 'tourists' are still only interested in Chiang Mai. Chiang Rai will only still be a 'rest stop' on the way there.

There was an interesting article about this in the Bangkok Post on either Saturday or Sunday.

I read that article, but they got many the 'facts' wrong.

They wrote that 'Chiang Khong' had been renamed 'New Town' but that most people were calling it a 'Ghost Town'.

What they are referring to as a 'Ghost Town' is a 3-block set of shophouses that some developers had built along the 3.3km road leading up to the border control offices of the new Friendship Bridge #4. The developer was speculating that Lao sellers and buyers would come across the bridge and set up shops along side Thais, similar to what happens in Mae Sai with Burmese/Chinese goods sellers.

This 3-block area started off well, but is now mostly vacant as there are no buyers.

Chiang Khong, 8km away, is still a busy location for the locals. But now that the previous water crossing has been replaced with a fancy bridge, there's no reason for the monied tourists to stop. The Buses from Chiang Mai, or personal passenger vehicles travelling in groups just drive right past our place, bypassing Chiang Khong altogether.

We only see the backpacker and DYI tourists pulling their Tourister luggage cases behind them trekking into town to stay overnight because they miss-timed their arrival and are either unable or too tired to continue their journey.

There's also the article in the BP with discontented locals, titled "Suspicion hangs over SEZ rush".

[cloudhopper]

They are going to build a new 4 lane divided highway between CM and CR. It will start on the outer ring road south of the 118 and cross midway between Doi Saket and Bo Sang heading E. I have seen the map from one of our neighbors whose house is going to be destroyed in the process. Construction is to begin in 4 years.

Did you see which route it would take through the mountains? Surely, would be easier to expand 118 than build a new highway. Btw OP, the main road from CR to BKK does avoid CM. Hwy 1.

I was more concerned with how close it was coming to our land but will be heading down there this weekend and will try to get a photo of the map band post it. IIRC it roughly parallels the 118 to the south and they are planning a big tunnel through the mountains.

[villagefarang]

I have seen lots of plans over the years and they tend to get changed with each change in government. Things do get done but there are usually many twists and turn along the way. The reasons for that are pretty clear but are just part of how things get done here.

The work being done in Chiang Rai at the moment has nothing to do with Chiang Mai, in my opinion. They are developing bypass roads to help with the existing and projected traffic. The train project is projected to head south through Den Chai. The China to Thailand long-haul routes seem to be focused on Chiang Rai and Isaan river crossings with Chiang Mai being too far West. There doesn't seem to be much urgency to do more to connect Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai at this point. The existing road 118 really isn't all that old and took a very long time to expand so can't see them focusing on a domestic road when their focus seems to be international at the moment.

[DonaldBattles]

I believe that the population of Chiang Rai Amphur Muang has doubled in the past 5 years. The growth is mostly young educated young Thais looking for quality of life and economic opportunities. I expect that the growth will double again in 5 years. Mae Fah Luang University is growing rapidly with a new medical doctorate and nurse program. A new medical school building is under construction. The engineering department is growing at a rapid rate. Very few retired farangs live in Chiang Rai and I don't see this changing very much. They much rather live in Chiang Mai. The two big bypass roads under construction will help relieve a lot of the north-south traffic through the center of the Chiang Rai city. There is not a lot of need for a new or expanded Highway 118 and I don't expect that it will be built in the next 10 years. They could do some badly needed improvements on 118 that would make it a lot safer to drive.

[TheKnave]

Is there a smog problem in Chiang Rai, similar to that of Chiang Mai, in the months leading up to Songkran? I have never been there during those months...

[Colabamumbai]

Having lived and worked the past 5 years in Thailand, I was looking at C Rai to possibly retire, in the end, I think that it is too far away from anywhere, 3.5 hours from C Mai. I was there this past September looking. I did not see any smoke from fires then, but I imagine November and December will have.

Last year in Rayong In March and April I met a lot of ex pats from C Mai who went south for a holiday because they could not breath the air in C Mai during those months.

Now I am looking at Bang Saen in Chonburi, close to Bangkok and also Pattaya although I have not interest in Pattaya, and not far from Rayong. Beaches all the way.

[1FinickyOne]

As to the burning - my very limited experience was one night in CR - maybe February - and waking to find a thick coating of ash on my car and the air was tough to breathe - worse than anything I have seen in CM - though this could have possibly been a one off from a fire outside of town… we left that morning.

[johnhw]

Please, no more frightening items like this.
I do NOT want to even think about searching for a new haven away from the endless hordes of tourists and the glitz and sleaze they attract

[DonaldBattles]

Burning of crop residue takes place in all major farming areas. In Chiang Rai it seems to occur mostly in March. However there is random burning going on frequently. The Thai government has signed on to the climate control treaty in Paris. Let's see if they will start enforcing the laws that are already on the books. Tilling the residue under is much better for the farms but you never see the government promoting this. Most rice fields have no nutrients left because of yearly heavy doses of 45-45-45 chemical fertilizer. Tilling the residue would absorb some of the harmful chemicals in the ground. Most rice farmers that I know tell me the soil is so bad that it can never be used for anything except rice growing. Apparently the rice plants respond to only the heavy levels of chemical fertilizers. The government is encouraging rice farmers to grow something else but they don't say anything about a market and support for something else. I am guessing that 85% of the Chiang Rai farmland is used for rice growing and I don't see anyone changing crops.

[villagefarang]

In our area everyone seems to have dug a pond in their rice fields so they can grow pumpkins during the off season. While tilling the rice fields is an option if they can afford it, the seven or eight million rai of corn grown on steep mountainsides isn’t well suited for heavy machinery so I doubt they will stop burning it.

Lowland burning, hillside burning and forest burning seem to occur at slightly different times, spread over a few months.

Edited January 8, 2016 by villagefarang

[umbanda]

I believe that the population of Chiang Rai Amphur Muang has doubled in the past 5 years. The growth is mostly young educated young Thais looking for quality of life and economic opportunities. I expect that the growth will double again in 5 years. Mae Fah Luang University is growing rapidly with a new medical doctorate and nurse program. A new medical school building is under construction. The engineering department is growing at a rapid rate. Very few retired farangs live in Chiang Rai and I don't see this changing very much. They much rather live in Chiang Mai. The two big bypass roads under construction will help relieve a lot of the north-south traffic through the center of the Chiang Rai city. There is not a lot of need for a new or expanded Highway 118 and I don't expect that it will be built in the next 10 years. They could do some badly needed improvements on 118 that would make it a lot safer to drive.

Hi Donald. I just found out that a 100 talang lot facing the new bypass to the airport was sold for 4 mil. Before the construction of the new road, just 2 years ago, those lots were selling for 1.5 mil. The same is happening with the new mix use townhouses built by the Airport and Bandu main roads, where new housing and commercial projects are in the way. In my opinion, Chiang Rai will develop faster than Chiang Mai, not only because the Chinese tourist traffic.The commercial traffic will use Phayao-Lampang route to Bangkok. Any new industrial development in North Thailand will prefer to be located on that route, than close to Chiang Mai where real estate cost is a lot higher. I can see a future development and increase in real estate cost in Phayao and Lampang too.

[MESmith]

They are going to build a new 4 lane divided highway between CM and CR. It will start on the outer ring road south of the 118 and cross midway between Doi Saket and Bo Sang heading E. I have seen the map from one of our neighbors whose house is going to be destroyed in the process. Construction is to begin in 4 years.

Did you see which route it would take through the mountains? Surely, would be easier to expand 118 than build a new highway. Btw OP, the main road from CR to BKK does avoid CM. Hwy 1.

I was more concerned with how close it was coming to our land but will be heading down there this weekend and will try to get a photo of the map band post it. IIRC it roughly parallels the 118 to the south and they are planning a big tunnel through the mountains.

That ain't gonna happen. Relax about a big road near your land, unless it's another ring road or more empty housing estates. At least your land will increase in value. Then SELL!

[bazza40]

They are going to build a new 4 lane divided highway between CM and CR. It will start on the outer ring road south of the 118 and cross midway between Doi Saket and Bo Sang heading E. I have seen the map from one of our neighbors whose house is going to be destroyed in the process. Construction is to begin in 4 years.

Did you see which route it would take through the mountains? Surely, would be easier to expand 118 than build a new highway. Btw OP, the main road from CR to BKK does avoid CM. Hwy 1.

I was more concerned with how close it was coming to our land but will be heading down there this weekend and will try to get a photo of the map band post it. IIRC it roughly parallels the 118 to the south and they are planning a big tunnel through the mountains.

Given the amount of seismic activity in the area, I wouldn't like to be using it.

Would have to be a loooong tunnel as well.

[seedy]

one nonsense post removed

[chiang mai]

As a frequent visitor to Chiang Rai it was a very difficult choice for me to make between there and where we eventually moved to, closer to Chiang Mai. That having been said, the worst burning season experiences I have ever endured in the past twelve years were en-route to and in Chiang Rai.

[LivinLOS]

They are going to build a new 4 lane divided highway between CM and CR. It will start on the outer ring road south of the 118 and cross midway between Doi Saket and Bo Sang heading E. I have seen the map from one of our neighbors whose house is going to be destroyed in the process. Construction is to begin in 4 years.

Did you see which route it would take through the mountains? Surely, would be easier to expand 118 than build a new highway. Btw OP, the main road from CR to BKK does avoid CM. Hwy 1.

I was more concerned with how close it was coming to our land but will be heading down there this weekend and will try to get a photo of the map band post it. IIRC it roughly parallels the 118 to the south and they are planning a big tunnel through the mountains.

Please do post any map.. its helpful to know the ideas as they develop..

[Somnambulist]

I used to know a Canadian who lived in Chiang Rai, a teacher. He had asthma, worse than mine, and during the smoky season he came down to Chiang Mai every chance he could get because the smoke is less bad in CM, believe it or not. So CR is out of the question for me.

[TheKnave]

I used to know a Canadian who lived in Chiang Rai, a teacher. He had asthma, worse than mine, and during the smoky season he came down to Chiang Mai every chance he could get because the smoke is less bad in CM, believe it or not. So CR is out of the question for me.

Thanks.

I know burning takes place wherever crops are cultivated, but Chiang Mai has a ring of mountains, and a strong inversion that, like Los Angeles, keeps the smog trapped. I guess it makes sense that Chiang Rai would be similar, although I had no idea if the geography and climactic conditions made it similar to CM.

Too bad. I liked it there, although we were there in November, and probably missed the burning.

[canuckamuck]

Nothing to see up here in Chiang Rai, please forget about it and close this thread.

[LannaGuy]

I think it would be great for CR to expand as anything that takes the relentless pressure of CM is welcomed

[cloudhopper]

Here is a picture of the map provided in a 145 page booklet given to a neighbor whose land this will cross. It is a 184 km 4 lane divided highway from CM to CR. Several km of tunnels will be required - the booklet has diagrams of 2 parallel round tunnels dug by a machine. 900+ homes will need to be "moved".

I hope you guys are right that it will not happen by the 4 year target start date. But if the government goes on an infrastructure tear in an attempt to boost the economy then it may happen regardless of its practicality...

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ Very ambitious.. I don't think that kind of major tunneling exists in Thailand anywhere.

Also interesting that the highway would be new all the way from the outer ring; was expecting to use the new Sankamphaeng / Mae On road as the starter, but it looks like a new one more or less parallel to the Doi Saket road.

Also makes you wonder if it's worth the investment.. Kind of wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to vastly improve Highway #11 to Lampang, which of course also connects with Highway #1 to Chiang Rai. But with an improved #11 that includes major tunneling you get the added benefit of also improving the connection to Bangkok, not just Chiang Rai and China.

Then again, I suppose once you're through that first tunnel and into Lampang province, you could have another highway South to Lampang city and Highway #1 to Bangkok.

Edited January 14, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[MESmith]

Could you take a close up of the section from CM east through the first tunnel & then north? Post as big a pic as you can, please.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ Yeah, it's blurry. Would be nice to have a shot of the legend, too.

[cloudhopper]

The red is built on the surface, black elevated and yellow tunnel.

Could you take a close up of the section from CM east through the first tunnel & then north? Post as big a pic as you can, please.