Brit. Murders in Thailand

[chiang mai]

I came across the following article yesterday, since there had been a couple of threads recently where some posters tried to tell us that we were more likely to be murdered in Thailand than in any other country I thought this was worth posting again on its own.

I've posted the numbers at the end of the earlier threads because this is the very first set of reliable statistics that I've ever seen on this subject. Subsequently I though it useful to give the statistics some wider exposure hence I'm posting them here. For the unaware, the statistics come from the UK government, courtesy of a Freedom of Information request:

The top 15 deadliest countries for British tourists and the number of British citizens murdered.

The period covered is the three years, 2012 to 2014 and the numbers were first published this month:

Pakistan - 37
Tunisia - 34
Jamaica - 18
America - 15
France - 14
South Africa - 11
Ukraine - 10
Australia - 7
Algeria - 7
Afghanistan - 6
Barbados - 6
Spain - 6
Brazil - 5
Egypt - 5
Bangladesh - 5

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/worlds-deadliest-places-british-tourists-7547548

The numbers cover only murders but they do cover a three year period, since Thailand is not on the list it seems as though the number of British murders here per year is very very small.

Now before somebody comes along and tells us the numbers are not reliable and uses that obnoxious word, "apologist" again, the numbers don't include death by any other cause and certainly if road traffic accident (RTA's) were to be shown, the death toll would be far far higher. But I think it's useful to help clarify the notion of how dangerous Thailand can be, using facts, piece by piece, this being the first piece.

Blast away!

[ukrules]

There's a big difference between deaths and murders.

Thailand is a very popular retirement destination which is going to inflate the number of deaths to such a degree that only a detailed breakdown of causes of death will produce any meaningful information.

[TheAppletons]

British deaths overseas in 2013-2014, as compiled by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Thailand is the second most dangerous place, after Spain. (Source cited below.)

Spain - 856

USA - 125

Thailand - 362

France - 346

Greece - 160

United Arab Emirates - 75

Cyprus - 157

Australia - 72

India - 89

Germany - 146

Turkey - 75

China - 66

Philippines - 82

Pakistan - 21

Portugal - 131

Egypt - 49

Canada - 32

Switzerland - 173

Italy - 45

Jamaica - 23

Source: FCO

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3086453/The-country-highest-proportion-British-deaths-Philippines-cost-17-000-repatriate-body.html#ixzz42pRl0Vqc

[colinneil]

Many murders commited in Thailand are classed as unexplained or foul play not suspected.

[chiang mai]

As stated, the numbers cover only Brits. murdered in Thailand, just one piece of the overall statistics.

The other large chunks that interest me are the number of Brits who die in RTA's, from drowning and the number who die from old age, subtract those from the total and I think the number becomes very small indeed.

Somebody posted in another thread recently that the biggest reason for British deaths in Thailand is murder and suicide, the usual throw away nonsense type of statement, amazingly 26 other people came along and gave "likes" indicating that they also believe that to be true. Well it's still possible that suicide is a leading cause of deaths and until we see the numbers we'll never know, but at least now we know it isn't murder.

Edited March 13, 2016 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

Many murders commited in Thailand are classed as unexplained or foul play not suspected.

Can you prove that or is that just what you think or would like to believe?

[shirtless]

Do you really accept Thailands Data , most deaths here are swept under the carpet .They cannot afford to soil Thailands great image .?

[chiang mai]

Do you really accept Thailands Data , most deaths here are swept under the carpet .They cannot afford to soil Thailands great image .?

It's UK government data.

[chiang mai]

I'm interested in fact, not emotion, not bar stool stories, not "I think I know", not "my Thai wife knows", just fact and I tend to trust the UK government on this kind of data.

If you don't and/or you think the data supplied to the UK by Thailand is suspect then you can't contribute to the fact of all of this, especially so if you think that all governments lie about everything, ergo, you have nothing more than an opinion that has no basis, a guess, a baseless idea, in which I have zero interest.

Edited March 14, 2016 by chiang mai

[seedy]

one Disrespectful post Removed

[KittenKong]

Do you really accept Thailands Data , most deaths here are swept under the carpet .They cannot afford to soil Thailands great image .?

It's UK government data.

But based on Thai data.

[isanbirder]

British deaths overseas in 2013-2014, as compiled by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Thailand is the second most dangerous place, after Spain. (Source cited below.)

Spain - 856

USA - 125

Thailand - 362

France - 346

Greece - 160

United Arab Emirates - 75

Cyprus - 157

Australia - 72

India - 89

Germany - 146

Turkey - 75

China - 66

Philippines - 82

Pakistan - 21

Portugal - 131

Egypt - 49

Canada - 32

Switzerland - 173

Italy - 45

Jamaica - 23

Source: FCO

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3086453/The-country-highest-proportion-British-deaths-Philippines-cost-17-000-repatriate-body.html#ixzz42pRl0Vqc

Most dangerous? What nonsense! The high figures for Spain, Thailand and France simply reflect the fact that these are favourite retirement destinations.

[MaeJoMTB]

Do you really accept Thailands Data , most deaths here are swept under the carpet .They cannot afford to soil Thailands great image .?

Thai authorities don't register cause of death accurately.

Suicide, road accident, shower accident, accidental drowning, overdose are all popular Thai verdicts with no investigation.

That's why you can only compare the overall death statistics.

The British authorities my not know why they died, but they certainly count the deaths.

[chiang mai]

Do you really accept Thailands Data , most deaths here are swept under the carpet .They cannot afford to soil Thailands great image .?

It's UK government data.

But based on Thai data.

Once again that's a view that is based on suspicion alone, zero fact. In favour of the opposite view is that UK authorities might become a little suspicious where a body is returned to the UK containing bullet holes or knife wounds where the cause of death was listed as suicide, don't you think!

[MaeJoMTB]

I'm interested in fact, not emotion, not bar stool stories, not "I think I know", not "my Thai wife knows", just fact and I tend to trust the UK government on this kind of data.

My last Thai gf admitted to killing her Swedish husband.

The Thai authorities recorded his death as a RTA (hit and run), which is what the Swedish government accepted.

Once again that's a view that is based on suspicion alone, zero fact. In favour of the opposite view is that UK authorities might become a little suspicious where a body is returned to the UK containing bullet holes or knife wounds where the cause of death was listed as suicide, don't you think!

Most foreigners are cremated in Thailand, very soon after their death.

I don't think many are killed by guns or knives.

More likely RTAs or balcony falls, or died of natural causes.

What about all those mysterious deaths in the CM Deathtown Inn ......

did any foreign path labs rule on cause of death?

did they even get to examine the bodies?

I think not.

Edited March 14, 2016 by MaeJoMTB

[RabC]

It would also be interesting to both death and murder stats as a % of the number of UK visitors, as they stand at the moment the figures are meaningless.

[chiang mai]

Do you really accept Thailands Data , most deaths here are swept under the carpet .They cannot afford to soil Thailands great image .?

Thai authorities don't register cause of death accurately.

Suicide, road accident, shower accident, accidental drowning, overdose are all popular Thai verdicts with no investigation.

That's why you can only compare the overall death statistics.

The British authorities my not know why they died, but they certainly count the deaths.

You think they don't "register cause of death accurately", can you support that thought with some proof or that just another WAG?

And no, looking at overall numbers is not helpful in making people understand the reason for the number. 362 deaths is likely to be something like 2 murders, 90 RTA deaths, 25 drownings, 15 suicides, 200 natural causes and some miscellaneous. If people were to understand that eventual break down they could perhaps modify their behavior accordingly and/or not be so scared of the reports that Thailand has the highest rate of gun deaths in the world and how likely you are to be murdered here.

[MaeJoMTB]

And no, looking at overall numbers is not helpful in making people understand the reason for the number. 362 deaths is likely to be something like 2 murders, 90 RTA deaths, 25 drownings, 15 suicides, 200 natural causes and some miscellaneous. If people were to understand that eventual break down they could perhaps modify their behavior accordingly and/or not be so scared of the reports that Thailand has the highest rate of gun deaths in the world and how likely you are to be murdered here.

Alternatively,

One could assume 260 of the 360 deaths were murders, and would likely be just as accurate.

Your rose coloured glasses completely obscure the dangers of Thailand to you.

You have no credibility on this subject.

[chiang mai]

It would also be interesting to both death and murder stats as a % of the number of UK visitors, as they stand at the moment the figures are meaningless.

900,000 British visitors per year:

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/bangkok-bombing-qa-how-many-british-travellers-are-in-thailand-is-it-safe-to-travel-to-the-country-10459802.html

Assuming 4 murders per three years that's 1.3 per year or 0.000014%, if that's helpful!

AND

If 900,000 visitors and 50,000 resident expats and 362 British deaths per year in total from all causes, that's 0.038%.

[chiang mai]

And no, looking at overall numbers is not helpful in making people understand the reason for the number. 362 deaths is likely to be something like 2 murders, 90 RTA deaths, 25 drownings, 15 suicides, 200 natural causes and some miscellaneous. If people were to understand that eventual break down they could perhaps modify their behavior accordingly and/or not be so scared of the reports that Thailand has the highest rate of gun deaths in the world and how likely you are to be murdered here.

Alternatively,

One could assume 260 of the 360 deaths were murders, and would likely be just as accurate.

Your rose coloured glasses completely obscure the dangers of Thailand to you.

You have no credibility on this subject.

That's just another thought with zero basis in fact, put up fact and you'll be listened to, until then it's just more hot air and anti Thai rhetoric from yet another Thai basher..

[RabC]

It would also be interesting to both death and murder stats as a % of the number of UK visitors, as they stand at the moment the figures are meaningless.

900,000 British visitors per year:

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/bangkok-bombing-qa-how-many-british-travellers-are-in-thailand-is-it-safe-to-travel-to-the-country-10459802.html

Assuming 4 murders per three years that's 1.3 per year or 0.000014%, if that's helpful!

AND

If 900,000 visitors and 50,000 resident expats and 362 British deaths per year in total from all causes, that's 0.038%.

Again useless figures unless we have those details for all the other listed countries. I am not trying to shoot down your theory but with the facts given up to now it is impossible to tell if Thailand is any more or less dangerous than anywhere. I feel perfectly safe living here and have no issues buth throwing out numbers willy nilly leaves you open to comments.

[mariohh1]

Do you really accept Thailands Data , most deaths here are swept under the carpet .They cannot afford to soil Thailands great image .?

It's UK government data.

But based on Thai data.

Once again that's a view that is based on suspicion alone, zero fact. In favour of the opposite view is that UK authorities might become a little suspicious where a body is returned to the UK containing bullet holes or knife wounds where the cause of death was listed as suicide, don't you think!

i just googeld a little bit and found an BBC request for the number of murders in thailand was denied by the freedom of information based on they dont want to damage thai relations and the tourist sector, so thats why there is no number for thailand! And not because it is so low.

[sandgroper2]

Many murders commited in Thailand are classed as unexplained or foul play not suspected.

Can you prove that or is that just what you think or would like to believe?

Quite possibly he reads the newspapers daily, try it.

[chiang mai]

It's UK government data.

But based on Thai data.

Once again that's a view that is based on suspicion alone, zero fact. In favour of the opposite view is that UK authorities might become a little suspicious where a body is returned to the UK containing bullet holes or knife wounds where the cause of death was listed as suicide, don't you think!

i just googeld a little bit and found an BBC request for the number of murders in thailand was denied by the freedom of information based on they dont want to damage thai relations and the tourist sector, so thats why there is no number for thailand! And not because it is so low.

If you want us to believe that you need to post a link to prove what you say is true, otherwise you made it up.

[chiang mai]

It would also be interesting to both death and murder stats as a % of the number of UK visitors, as they stand at the moment the figures are meaningless.

900,000 British visitors per year:

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/bangkok-bombing-qa-how-many-british-travellers-are-in-thailand-is-it-safe-to-travel-to-the-country-10459802.html

Assuming 4 murders per three years that's 1.3 per year or 0.000014%, if that's helpful!

AND

If 900,000 visitors and 50,000 resident expats and 362 British deaths per year in total from all causes, that's 0.038%.

Again useless figures unless we have those details for all the other listed countries. I am not trying to shoot down your theory but with the facts given up to now it is impossible to tell if Thailand is any more or less dangerous than anywhere. I feel perfectly safe living here and have no issues buth throwing out numbers willy nilly leaves you open to comments.

I don't have a theory, I simply posted some government figures!

And from the comments thus far, at least two people can't read/don't read well and/or are confused because the subject is not foreign deaths abroad it's as the title states. As for the remainder, at least three people chose to attack the poster rather than the statistics so clearly they have nothing to add that is based on fact and have already lost the argument.

Edited March 14, 2016 by chiang mai

[mariohh1]

It's UK government data.

But based on Thai data.

Once again that's a view that is based on suspicion alone, zero fact. In favour of the opposite view is that UK authorities might become a little suspicious where a body is returned to the UK containing bullet holes or knife wounds where the cause of death was listed as suicide, don't you think!

i just googeld a little bit and found an BBC request for the number of murders in thailand was denied by the freedom of information based on they dont want to damage thai relations and the tourist sector, so thats why there is no number for thailand! And not because it is so low.

If you want us to believe that you need to post a link to prove what you say is true, otherwise you made it up.

i know of 4 murders all public including the koh tao murders or are you saying they start counting first from 5 murders?

[chiang mai]

Once again that's a view that is based on suspicion alone, zero fact. In favour of the opposite view is that UK authorities might become a little suspicious where a body is returned to the UK containing bullet holes or knife wounds where the cause of death was listed as suicide, don't you think!

i just googeld a little bit and found an BBC request for the number of murders in thailand was denied by the freedom of information based on they dont want to damage thai relations and the tourist sector, so thats why there is no number for thailand! And not because it is so low.

If you want us to believe that you need to post a link to prove what you say is true, otherwise you made it up.

i know of 4 murders all public including the koh tao murders or are you saying they start counting first from 5 murders?

No the total number of deaths for the period are less than 5, an unknown number - the koh tao murders are I believe outside of the reporting period described above, 2012-2014.

I can't accept a book as reliable proof of the facts you claim, I'm sorry, I just can't.

The following article adds to some of what you describe although the only quoted fact in there that I can see is confirmation of there having been 17 Brits murdered since 2000, the rest is speculation is support of a novel!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/with-so-many-britons-murdered-in-thailand-why-does-our-government-not-warn-of-the-dangers-faced-769640.html

But then there's this independent site which might be worth looking into, I haven't looked too deeply but I will and will let you know what I find:

http://www.farang-deaths.com/

EDIT to add: I just filtered the above site and looked very quickly, I can see clear evidence of one British death by murder, the remaining 17 deaths appear to have other clear causes but I perhaps need to take a second look.

Edited March 14, 2016 by chiang mai

[fey]

It would also be interesting to both death and murder stats as a % of the number of UK visitors, as they stand at the moment the figures are meaningless.

correct. the numbers dont convey well your actual chances of being murdered.

i think the high pakistan figure was due to an isolated isis attack, not really reflective of overall risk for most people.

on a side note its doubtful thai authorities have the training and science to investigate most murders. some of these guys have a high school degree and are low paid to boot.

theres also the buddhist ethic where what happens is just accepted and forgotten, rather then analyzed. well he must have deserved what happened. karma you know.

i suspect most deaths are simply written off after the paperwork is finished.

Edited March 14, 2016 by fey

[Thongkorn]

I would like to know how and who collates these statistics. Don't Think many Country's can .

[chiang mai]

It would also be interesting to both death and murder stats as a % of the number of UK visitors, as they stand at the moment the figures are meaningless.

correct. the numbers dont convey well your actual chances of being murdered.

i think the high pakistan figure was due to an isolated isis attack, not really reflective of overall risk for most people.

on a side note its doubtful thai authorities have the training and science to investigate most murders. some of these guys have a high school degree and are low paid to boot.

theres also the buddhist ethic where what happens is just accepted and forgotten, rather then analyzed. well he must have deserved what happened. karma you know.

i suspect most deaths are simply written off after the paperwork is finished.

More likely that the Pakistani numbers comprise British citizens of Pakistan origin who returned home to live.