Koh Tao murders appeal reveals shocking new evidence suggesting unfair trial and wrongful conviction

[Moonsterk]

Putting anyone on the ignore list like xylophone just did means he is not willing to look at both sides of the coin.

Yes we all know how the Thai justice system works and it's not up to western standards we expect.

But that does not mean we should close our eyes when members here have some interesting theories of what might have happened. Instead of just confirming that my word is the only right one , because I want justice for B2 since they are clearly innocent in many peoples eyes.

When posters rely on accusations paid shill... troll .....antagonist to discredit a view, which is blatant baiting and incitement, offering very little in way of a true discourse, then putting them on ignore certainly is an understandable option.

While Win and Zaw may be innocent to some, to others, like myself, they are guilty as charged, and convicted. Certainly I won't say Thai police are a model of propriety, and Thai justice isn't sorely in need of an overhaul, it's the misinformation-the inference, the twisted facts, too oft repeated fallacies and the Facebook ringleaders of this campaign I find lack credibility, logic, even sanity

If I hadn't been personally attacked on so many levels, even threatened with violence, I too probably would have gone on believing their innocence, having never really stood back and looked at what was being said, and how it lacked a basis in facts, it was just crap being regurgitated.

I don' t see how people can ignore how a FB page, CSI La pasted Nom Sod's nose onto a screen grab of the running man clip and then hundreds of thousand of followers shared it as gospel

How can people ignore the only media carrying these claims are a tabloid blogger that this forum will not allow posts from- Mr Drummond and Ms. Buchanan of the Samui Times, who refers to the convicted as " My Boys.." publicly declaring she will dedicate her life to their release and in no way should be considered impartial on the matter.

Incidentally, Samui Times is not an accredited news entity. In fact it is illegal for foreigners to own news media within Thailand, so there is no way could the web site even be considered for accreditation. Should it really be treated as a viable news source by this forum?

I find accusing someone of murder with no more evidence than a photo shopped nose on a pic to be objectionable- and within this nation, is it not technically a criminal offense?

[xylophone]

Putting anyone on the ignore list like xylophone just did means he is not willing to look at both sides of the coin.

Yes we all know how the Thai justice system works and it's not up to western standards we expect.

But that does not mean we should close our eyes when members here have some interesting theories of what might have happened. Instead of just confirming that my word is the only right one , because I want justice for B2 since they are clearly innocent in many peoples eyes.

A reasoned response "balo" for which I thank you, however I am willing to look at both sides and have done so, but what I do not like is someone who says that he takes enjoyment out of winding other people up/antagonising those with different viewpoints, because there is absolutely no need for it. Just look at some of this person's responses and you will see what I mean.

Like you, I want justice for the B2, but let me say this, if they were found guilty because of overwhelming and correctly collected evidence, then I would have no problems in accepting the verdict, but the case is riddled with inconsistencies, extremely poor police procedures, lost evidence and possible perjury. These aspects have no place in any criminal procedure in any country, even a Third World country.

And again let me make this clear, if a retrial occurs and they are found guilty due to irrefutable evidence, then so be it, however I doubt this can ever happen because of all that has gone on before, and the need to save face in a country where it is so important it will override all other considerations, even life.

[Moonsterk]

Why does blonde hair on Koh Tao have to equate to being a tourist?

This man works as a DJ at intouch bar:

post-222707-0-91900000-1443887508.jpg

Snipped

This, Dear Undecided Reader, is a great example of the complete manufacture of a narrative.

That is a woman leaning over behind the man and it is her hair over his head.

Good grief.

[Moonsterk]

If Hannah had a blonde hair in her hand, it seems likely that an attacker had blonde hair - natural or dyed?

Likely doesn't cut it if one can make a plausible case that it was someone other than a attacker including one who may have come to try to aid the late Ms. Witheridge after the attackers had left. But if you want to say it was the attacker, then again, that attacker could not be the one that every says was at least one of the attackers and now you are making the case for multiple attackers none of whom anyone on here has speculated as to their identity while they have no problem speculating as to the one person's identity and who might have not even been there.

I said way before the trial began in June 2015 that it was possible that the perpetrators of these crimes were not the B2 and not persons related to the family that owned the properties 'across the street' but other persons who went back to their hotels and calmly checked out in the morning and left the island before the island went on lock-down but that suggestion was hooted down.

But now you can't even tell if the blond hair that is claimed to indeed be that of the murderer's was even a natural or dyed blond hair and I would venture that any Thai with blond hair would have dyed hair and not natural.

Considering the condition Ms. Witheridge was left in. I have serious doubts she was alive even moments after the attack. Also the position she was in, suggests she was posed. Would someone who came to her aid, leave her in such a manner? And why was there no attempt to get her help if she was discovered still alive?

Actually, I think you are just getting a kick out of winding up posters as a devil's advocate.

I think JL Crab is being accused of winding up posters because he masterfully shreds the logic lacking narrative many are putting out- and does it in a highly amusing manner to the interested reader who might even find his posts and/or the thread to have some entertainment value.

People do read for pleasure, topic notwithstanding.

Not everyone gives a damn.

Here's a thought- Hannah had blonde hair, she had dyed blonde hair with darker blonde roots.

Is it remotely possible the hair in her hand have been..... hers?

As far as "suggested" Witheridge was left posed. It really is far more likely she engaged in a sexual encounter-perhaps forced, perhaps even consensual with Miller, and then a secondary forced assault which might have occurred after she was beaten unconscious- as the initial confession stated, and simply left in the position.

[Khun Han]

Putting anyone on the ignore list like xylophone just did means he is not willing to look at both sides of the coin.

Yes we all know how the Thai justice system works and it's not up to western standards we expect.

But that does not mean we should close our eyes when members here have some interesting theories of what might have happened. Instead of just confirming that my word is the only right one , because I want justice for B2 since they are clearly innocent in many peoples eyes.

Reasonable debate is fine, even with people whose motives appear questionable to me. The only poster on the whole of this forum I have on ignore is 'Moonsterk' - who's posts I find particularly intellectually dishonest and unsavoury. I generally don't respond to Crab, but his posts don't bother me enough to warrant being blocked (they're sometimes even genuinely witty), even though he is a self-confessed troll/wind-up merchant.

[Aj Mick]

If I hadn't been personally attacked on so many levels, even threatened with violence, I too probably would have gone on believing their innocence, having never really stood back and looked at what was being said, and how it lacked a basis in facts, it was just crap being regurgitated.

I find accusing someone of murder with no more evidence than a photo shopped nose on a pic to be objectionable- and within this nation, is it not technically a criminal offense?

Yes, you do have a history of being personally attacked, and not just on this forum. Perhaps you have never really stood back to look at your attitude, as well as what you have said and how it lacked basis in facts, it is just crap being regurgitated.

I find convicting someone of murder and sentencing them to death on no more than unverifiable evidence to be objectionable…...

…… especially in the face of evidence that could implicate certain others being ignored.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Aj Mick

[IslandLover]

Moonsterk, on 17 Jun 2016 - 15:42, said:

canuckamuck, on 14 Jun 2016 - 01:33, said:

Considering the condition Ms. Witheridge was left in. I have serious doubts she was alive even moments after the attack. Also the position she was in, suggests she was posed. Would someone who came to her aid, leave her in such a manner? And why was there no attempt to get her help if she was discovered still alive?

Actually, I think you are just getting a kick out of winding up posters as a devil's advocate.

I think JL Crab is being accused of winding up posters because he masterfully shreds the logic lacking narrative many are putting out- and does it in a highly amusing manner to the interested reader who might even find his posts and/or the thread to have some entertainment value.

People do read for pleasure, topic notwithstanding.

Not everyone gives a damn.

Here's a thought- Hannah had blonde hair, she had dyed blonde hair with darker blonde roots.

Is it remotely possible the hair in her hand have been..... hers?

As far as "suggested" Witheridge was left posed. It really is far more likely she engaged in a sexual encounter-perhaps forced, perhaps even consensual with Miller, and then a secondary forced assault which might have occurred after she was beaten unconscious- as the initial confession stated, and simply left in the position.

It was stated in court witness testimony that the blonde hair found in Hannah's hand was not hers, or David Miller's, or either of the two accused. What part of that do you not understand?

Your constant references to Hannah and David being about to engage in sex or being engaged in sex on the beach that night has already earned you a rebuke from the Miller family via facebook. Give it a rest, please.

[Khun Han]

I don't know why you bother engaging with her IslandLover. She is thoroughly dishonest, and often in utterly revolting ways. Best on the ignore list.

[IslandLover]

Khun Han, on 17 Jun 2016 - 18:22, said:

I don't know why you bother engaging with her IslandLover. She is thoroughly dishonest, and often in utterly revolting ways. Best on the ignore list.

I agree. The type of language and imagery used is deliberately designed to shock, and provoke a reaction from decent-minded people.

[IslandLover]

Edit to my post #427 above:

Your constant references to Hannah and David being about to engage in sex or being engaged in sex on the beach that night has no basis in fact and has already earned you a rebuke from the Miller family via facebook. Give it a rest, please.

[JLCrab]

<snip>

I find convicting someone of murder and sentencing them to death on no more than unverifiable evidence to be objectionable…...

…… especially in the face of evidence that could implicate certain others being ignored.

It wasn't ignored -- Kuhn Panya just didn't bother to tell anyone what it is.

"He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders." PBS 23 SEP 2014

[Khun Han]

Why does blonde hair on Koh Tao have to equate to being a tourist?

This man works as a DJ at intouch bar:

post-222707-0-91900000-1443887508.jpg

And this woman is a Koh Tao local and a friend of Nomsod:

post-222707-0-72034500-1444132789.jpg

I also recall Facebook photos from the infamous bad taste post-murders Koh Tao party, with a blonde Thai woman pretending to bury a toy hoe in inother Thai woman's head whilst laughing.

Just to confirm the island DJ's strange penchant for blonde hair, I found this:

[Aj Mick]

I find convicting someone of murder and sentencing them to death on no more than unverifiable evidence to be objectionable…...

…… especially in the face of evidence that could implicate certain others being ignored.

It wasn't ignored -- Kuhn Panya just didn't bother to tell anyone what it is.

"He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders." PBS 23 SEP 2014

Maybe correct, we don't know for sure…….. However, after Pol Lt Gen Panya was "promoted" off the case, that evidence along with other material that could implicate those suspects (or associated others) did not feature in the investigation and trial of the scapegoats. That was conveniently overlooked, lost, "used up" or whatever and the conviction was made on the basis of dubious and unverifiable, so called evidence.

[JLCrab]

I find convicting someone of murder and sentencing them to death on no more than unverifiable evidence to be objectionable…...

…… especially in the face of evidence that could implicate certain others being ignored.

It wasn't ignored -- Kuhn Panya just didn't bother to tell anyone what it is.

"He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders." PBS 23 SEP 2014

Maybe correct, we don't know for sure…….. However, after Pol Lt Gen Panya was "promoted" off the case, that evidence along with other material that could implicate those suspects (or associated others) did not feature in the investigation and trial of the scapegoats. That was conveniently overlooked, lost, "used up" or whatever and the conviction was made on the basis of dubious and unverifiable, so called evidence.

That was his one chance to show his evidence and he blew it -- if he thought he could publicly and to the media make murder charges against 2 of the most powerful persons on the island and say about the evidence and CCTV "I'll get back to you later" then he didn't understand Thai behavior at least as well as some of those claim to on here.

Another explanation is that maybe he was bluffing and there really was no evidence or CCTV and he was taken off the case for being a loose cannon with a penchant for the cameras and publicity.

Edited June 18, 2016 by JLCrab

[Khun Han]

And a big promotion is given immediately after 'screwing up' and being taken off the biggest murder case in Thailand for years!

"Crab's the name. Obfuscation's the game."

[JLCrab]

And a big promotion is given immediately after 'screwing up' and being taken off the biggest murder case in Thailand for years!

"Crab's the name. Obfuscation's the game."

That's right -- get this loose cannon out of here who goes on the media claiming to have evidence without one indication of what that evidence is and blowing our chance for any real investigation and prosecution wherever that may lead -- kick him upstairs if you have to but get him the he--ll out of here.

[stephenterry]

And a big promotion is given immediately after 'screwing up' and being taken off the biggest murder case in Thailand for years!

"Crab's the name. Obfuscation's the game."

That's right -- get this loose cannon out of here who goes on the media claiming to have evidence without one indication of what that evidence is and blowing our chance for any real investigation and prosecution wherever that may lead -- kick him upstairs if you have to but get him the he--ll out of here.

i don't think any police murder investigation elsewhere would reveal what evidence has been collected, for obvious legal reasons. Notwithstanding that, the RTP doesn't appear to have any consideration towards any legal barriers, and spout 'flavour of the day' at media reporters. Defamation doesn't apply to them.

Perhaps Panya was muzzled as soon as his statements were broadcast. Intriguing, isn't it?

[JLCrab]

And a big promotion is given immediately after 'screwing up' and being taken off the biggest murder case in Thailand for years!

"Crab's the name. Obfuscation's the game."

That's right -- get this loose cannon out of here who goes on the media claiming to have evidence without one indication of what that evidence is and blowing our chance for any real investigation and prosecution wherever that may lead -- kick him upstairs if you have to but get him the he--ll out of here.

i don't think any police murder investigation elsewhere would reveal what evidence has been collected, for obvious legal reasons. Notwithstanding that, the RTP doesn't appear to have any consideration towards any legal barriers, and spout 'flavour of the day' at media reporters. Defamation doesn't apply to them.

Perhaps Panya was muzzled as soon as his statements were broadcast. Intriguing, isn't it?

Yes -- because at that stage of the game, if he did not want to give any indication as to what was the evidence or what was contained on the CCTV, he should have just said that we have one person of interest in custody and are seeking one other and not revealed any specific names. Anything else is the work of a loose cannon.

Clearly.

This guy should have known that 23 SEP 2014 was going to be his one chance to put some evidence or indication of evidence into the public record so any such evidence could not just 'disappear' as he was probably going to yanked off the case in short order and he blew it. And people on here say that, if he was left on the case, he would have been able to prove the guilt of the 2 suspects even though people on here don't have the slightest idea what evidence there was if there indeed was any.

... and if he didn't realize he was going to yanked off the case, then he doesn't understand Thai behavior.

Edited June 18, 2016 by JLCrab

[stephenterry]

And a big promotion is given immediately after 'screwing up' and being taken off the biggest murder case in Thailand for years!

"Crab's the name. Obfuscation's the game."

That's right -- get this loose cannon out of here who goes on the media claiming to have evidence without one indication of what that evidence is and blowing our chance for any real investigation and prosecution wherever that may lead -- kick him upstairs if you have to but get him the he--ll out of here.

i don't think any police murder investigation elsewhere would reveal what evidence has been collected, for obvious legal reasons. Notwithstanding that, the RTP doesn't appear to have any consideration towards any legal barriers, and spout 'flavour of the day' at media reporters. Defamation doesn't apply to them.

Perhaps Panya was muzzled as soon as his statements were broadcast. Intriguing, isn't it?

Yes -- because at that stage of the game, if he did not want to give any indication as to what was the evidence or what was contained on the CCTV, he should have just said that we have one person of interest in custody and are seeking one other and not revealed any specific names. Anything else is the work of a loose cannon.

Clearly.

This guy should have known that 23 SEP 2014 was going to be his one chance to put some evidence or indication of evidence into the public record so any such evidence could not just 'disappear' as he was probably going to yanked off the case in short order and he blew it. And people on here say that, if he was left on the case, he would have been able to prove the guilt of the 2 suspects even though people on here don't have the slightest idea what evidence there was if there indeed was any.

... and if he didn't realize he was going to yanked off the case, then he doesn't understand Thai behavior.

Perhaps you should send him an e-mail telling him that.

[JLCrab]

I think he's probably figured that out by himself by now.

[Khun Han]

So we are forever berated for pointing out errors in the judicial procedures, and endlessly reminded that we have no say in them. But it's 'open house' on a senior police officer who gave a narrative that Crab dislikes. The hypocrisy and desperation to obfuscate on this aspect stand out like a sore thumb. But I suppose it fits perfectly with the overall strategy of the 'guilty' team: 'undermine inconvenient facts and evidence in any way you can think of, nothing is off-limits.'

[JLCrab]

So we are forever berated for pointing out errors in the judicial procedures, and endlessly reminded that we have no say in them. But it's 'open house' on a senior police officer who gave a narrative that Crab dislikes. The hypocrisy and desperation to obfuscate on this aspect stand out like a sore thumb. But I suppose it fits perfectly with the overall strategy of the 'guilty' team: 'undermine inconvenient facts and evidence in any way you can think of, nothing is off-limits.'

[Khun Han]

Or, to put it simply: General Panya told everyone who two of the real murderers are, so Crab is desperate to discredit him.

[JLCrab]

Or, to put it simply: General Panya told everyone who two of the real murderers are, so Crab is desperate to discredit him.

Evidence -- Evidence? We don't need to show you no stinkin' evidence.

[Khun Han]

Now his ham-handed attempt at sarcasm inadvertently exposes another fact: police normally release evidence to obtain the public's co-operation to gain more evidence. When they already have the culprits and enough evidence to nail them, they will say so and feel no need to prove it to the media. That's reserved for the court case unless, of course, corruption rears it's ugly head. As it did in this case.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Khun Han

[JLCrab]

I don't think in any jurisdiction in the world there would be a public announcement of the arrest of two prominent figures in a high profile case without giving some indication as to the evidence that led to the arrest ... unless of course maybe because there really was no evidence.

It was announced on here by one of the usual suspects that the proof that the 2 arrested were guilty of these crimes was because Panya said so ... if that don't earn the honey-baked h\am I don't know what will.

Edited June 18, 2016 by JLCrab

[Khun Han]

It's standard procedure to name suspects the police have proof were involved in a crime, without releasing that proof to the general public when there is no need to do so.

[JLCrab]

It's standard procedure to name suspects the police have proof were involved in a crime, without releasing that proof to the general public when there is no need to do so.

We have evidence -- trust us. Well whatever the reason for Panya not saying anything about the evidence that led him to arrest the two suspects, he was gone the next day. If this was a country other than Thailand, maybe that wouldn't happen -- but this is Thailand.

A result of the appeal is not due, according to the defense until sometime next year. So you'll have plenty of time to say what is wrong with the verdict. Have at it.

[Khun Han]

It's just standard police procedure Crab. We'd all like to see the evidence, but we only get to do that if the police deem it to be in the interests of the case.

Of course, if corruption steps in on behalf of the accused, that evidence never sees the light of day. As has happened here.

[JLCrab]

It's just standard police procedure Crab. We'd all like to see the evidence, but we only get to do that if the police deem it to be in the interests of the case.

Of course, if corruption steps in on behalf of the accused, that evidence never sees the light of day. As has happened here.

Bul*lshit.