New Brexit polls suggest shift in favour of leaving the EU

[Caps]

But some are educated and informed but still choose to go down a different path and suffer some of the consequences that might not be at bad as people are making out. Time will tell

! ?

But I am sure you will be fine looking down on us uneducated and uninformed people from that ivory tower you are sat in.

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't make them uneducated or uniformed

Most Brexiteers in this thread don't have the capability to understand all the issues, they can't process all the data to build a picture of their own so they join the Buccaneering camp by default because it's revolutionary, a bit like me having a poster of Che Guavera on my bedroom was when I was a teenager, it was romantic. I read a blog the other day that was just great, it ended with the words, "forget the dentist, the sweet shop is open", it sums up many Brexiteers almost perfectly.

But you could say the same for the Remainians on some points, I am not saying its perfect, far from it and thats both sides of the fence!

Whilst I do agree about it being on both sides, it's a waste of time perhaps to try and remind that the vast majority of reported news on this subject has come from the Remain side whilst almost non has come from the Brexit side. I've posted over 20 news articles from respected sources and all have been met with silly if not stupid replies, many of them from people who haven't even opened the links, let alone understood the content.

No I'm sorry, whilst there are shortcomings in both groups there's a glaring intellectual and informational shortfall in the Brexit Team, astonishingly so.

Yes you have posted and I have looked at the majority of them and I don't put stupid replies...really the only time I comment is when people try to be-little other people just because of their point of view...ill informed or not, again from both sides of the fence. There is no need for it, I thought we were all adults from varying backgrounds trying to put our views across. Even educated people can make very bad decisions, I have seen it first hand in the military and you see it in the UK quite a lot, so really the uneducated or educated can make ill informed choices

[wooloomooloo]

Well said, Caps. There are those here, and they know who they are, that constantly belittle the Brexit camp. I.e. we're not sharp enough, uneducated and all the rest of the derogatory comments. But, strangely, the Brexit camp aren't reciprocating.

If you challenge them then you'll be promptly placed on some posters ignore list anyway. Oh well, so be it.

Shame on them. Vote leave.

Edited June 11, 2016 by wooloomooloo

[sawadee1947]

So if Britain is clever, it will realise that it is not a world power on its own, that it will lose much with a yes to Brexit on June 23, and gain nothing but a brief moment of pride.

For me this is the best statement I´ve read since Cam announced the referendum. Sums the whole discussion up nicely!

...are you a FUNKEL fan?

[evadgib]

Sadly in the last day or so we are seeing the loutish behavior of those that make you ashamed to be British and will delight those who wish to see the back of us.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: <deleted> off Europe, were all voting out. They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: Sit down if you hate the French.

It's conceivable that various govts 'dirty tricks' depts could be behind this if true.

[wooloomooloo]

Football hooliganism has got nothing to do with anything but football.

Let someone mad enough in the political sphere even bother mention it. They'll only further increase the desire for Brexit.

[pitrevie]

Sadly in the last day or so we are seeing the loutish behavior of those that make you ashamed to be British and will delight those who wish to see the back of us.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: <deleted> off Europe, were all voting out. They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: Sit down if you hate the French.

It's conceivable that various govts 'dirty tricks' depts could be behind this if true.

I don't think English football fans need any assistance in that respect.

[evadgib]

Sadly in the last day or so we are seeing the loutish behavior of those that make you ashamed to be British and will delight those who wish to see the back of us.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: <deleted> off Europe, were all voting out. They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: Sit down if you hate the French.

It's conceivable that various govts 'dirty tricks' depts could be behind this if true.

I don't think English football fans need any assistance in that respect.

Have you heard the jocks at an old firm derby, or any home nation inc the Irish in any major sport playing En-ger-lund?

I agree our idiots don't help themselves but they're not always solely to blame.

Edited June 11, 2016 by evadgib

[Cirencester]

The out Vote is way way out in front now.

[sawadee1947]

Post-Withdrawal Britain: Why the Swiss Model Wouldn't Work for the UK

For Nigel Farage, the situation is simple. "The people of Norway (and) Switzerland ... are happy," says the head of the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP). "Those countries have their own deals, to maintain the type of trading relationship they want."

It is a standard Farage line. His party, along with many in the Conservative party, is calling for Britain to leave the European Union. They want Brexit. On June 23, the British are voting on the issue and current polls show that it will be extremely close.

David Cameron's government is warning of massive economic losses if the country's electorate chooses to leave Europe behind. His opponents argue that such talk is nothing but scaremongering. Switzerland and Norway, they say, aren't in the EU either -- and both countries are doing just fine.

The argument sounds intriguing at first. Would it be possible for the British, who already have a special status when it comes many to many aspects of the EU, perfect their situation and mutate into a kind of nuclear-armed Switzerland? In other words, could the UK be part of Europe both economically and militarily, but without Brussels' bureaucracy and regulations?

As charming as this may sound to many British voters, such an outcome is an illusion: Brexiteers are deceiving people. Neither the Norwegian nor the Swiss model is even vaguely realistic for Britain.

That can be demonstrated fairly simply when it comes to Norway. The country has twice rejected the prospect of joining the EU and Norway has been part of the European Economic Area (EEA) since 1994. The EEA was established in 1994 and opens its members to a single market with 500 million consumers.

But when they invoke Norway, Brexit campaigners decline to mention the price Oslo must pay to access the single market: EEA members are required to pay into the European Cohesion Fund, which offsets social disparities within the EU. Norway also takes part in a range of other EU programs and pays the same amounts for those as member states do.

All told, this adds up to over 850 million per year. If one takes into account how much money the UK currently receives from the EU, Norway pays almost the same amount per capita as the United Kingdom.

Furthermore, Norway must adhere to countless EU guidelines, like the free movement of workers, without having a voice in EU institutions. Were the UK to leave the EU and join the EEA, the country would continue paying and continue accepting guidelines from Brussels -- but it would no longer have the opportunity to be part of the negotiations that shape the European market.

"The British would lose their influence in the EU, but would have to follow all the rules," says Dennis Snower, head of the Institute of World Economy in Kiel. Originally from the US, Snower lived and researched in London for about 20 years and he describes the "economic irrationality of the Brexit advocates" as "frightening."

Switzerland: Another Illusion

Snower also considers the reference to the Swiss model to be a "fantasy, that is totally unrealistic" and sees the strategy being pursued by Brexiteers as emotional rather than fact-based.

Switzerland isn't a member of the EEA, but it has negotiated over 150 bilateral agreements with the EU over the past 25 years or so. As a result, the Swiss can benefit greatly from EU free trade -- but not, for example, when it comes to financial services. That would be a significant problem for Britain: The financial sector is deeply important for the British economy. And Switzerland too continually adopts European regulations in order to ensure compatibility with the EU, but like Norway, it has no say in their creation.

According to Stephan Breitenmoser, an expert on European law at the University of Basel, Switzerland's status would hardly be enough for the British. Additionally, he says, it is very difficult to make bilateral agreements with the EU. "The more specific the field, the more complicated it becomes," says Breitenmoser. The idea that Britain would attain Switzerland's status in the span of just two years -- the shortest length of time it would take for Brexit to become a reality -- is hard to imagine.

That is particularly true since the EU would have little reason to make similar concessions to the Brits as they do to the smaller nation of Switzerland. An example: Switzerland's agreements with the EU on the freedom of movement of workers are static. Prior to July 1, 1995, the Swiss adopted all EU regulations pertaining to freedom of movement. But the Swiss are not required to automatically adopt all EU regulations on freedom of movent that have been passed since. Rather, they were able to negotiate with Brussels which regulations they would accept. The future of that special status is currently in question because Switzerland is seeking to introduce an annual ceiling for the number of immigrants it is willing to accept.

"The static agreements hardly make sense for the EU anymore because of the rapid development of the laws," says European legal expert Breitenmoser. He believes it is unthinkable that Brussels would make such a deal with Britain.

Whether that's true remains to be seen. What is clear, however, is that the Brits can't have everything. It won't be possible for the UK to turn its back on the EU politically while still maintaining all of the economic advantages of the single market.

by SPIEGEL

[sandyf]

Right that's the pound f&&cked for the forseeable future - good luck Brit retirees on UK pensions better start economising now. Why can't we take a leaf out of Thailand's book and get the army in to suspend democracy. The shock waves will be enormous and the Scots are showing a majority to leave - could be a 1997 baht crisis / 2007 Lehman moment when global dominoes begin to fall and the fiction of global growth is exposed for what it is - massive quantitative easing and record low interest rates from wetern economies - and huge pointless infrastructure from China to keep the punchbowl topped up. First rule of a crisis is don't panic and the second rule if you must panic rush to the exits first.

Better to look the facts up and not listen to all the scare stories. Do you think,that if the electorate had been asked in the 1975 referendum to vote on what this monster of a EU would evolve into,the answer would have been YES ?

I don't know how old you are,but I can assure you that the vast majority of those who voted to join the EEC in 1975 now realise they were completely deceived.

The youngest voters in 1975 would be 59 years old now, I doubt very much if the majority are capable of thinking anything. You have obviously been 'assured ' by messages from the dark side.

[Richard W]

Only for Brits with Brain:

Nicely put. Well reasoned. It will be discarded by most here but thanks anyway ?

The frightening thought is that it may take a series of exit votes (Frexit?) to put the EU in order. It's a dangerous way of going about it, though. A prospect I have contemplated is a Confederate States of Europe (Europe de patries = states' rights) forming as an alternative to the United States of Europe.

I don't know how old you are,but I can assure you that the vast majority of those who voted to join the EEC in 1975 now realise they were completely deceived.

The youngest voters in 1975 would be 59 years old now, I doubt very much if the majority are capable of thinking anything. You have obviously been 'assured ' by messages from the dark side.

There are plenty of us still alive. But, given the age profile of the survivors, how high a proportion were federalists? I suspect federalists were younger than those who merely favoured a common market.

[chiang mai]

Most Brexiteers in this thread don't have the capability to understand all the issues, they can't process all the data to build a picture of their own so they join the Buccaneering camp by default because it's revolutionary, a bit like me having a poster of Che Guavera on my bedroom was when I was a teenager, it was romantic. I read a blog the other day that was just great, it ended with the words, "forget the dentist, the sweet shop is open", it sums up many Brexiteers almost perfectly.

But you could say the same for the Remainians on some points, I am not saying its perfect, far from it and thats both sides of the fence!

Whilst I do agree about it being on both sides, it's a waste of time perhaps to try and remind that the vast majority of reported news on this subject has come from the Remain side whilst almost non has come from the Brexit side. I've posted over 20 news articles from respected sources and all have been met with silly if not stupid replies, many of them from people who haven't even opened the links, let alone understood the content.

No I'm sorry, whilst there are shortcomings in both groups there's a glaring intellectual and informational shortfall in the Brexit Team, astonishingly so.

Yes you have posted and I have looked at the majority of them and I don't put stupid replies...really the only time I comment is when people try to be-little other people just because of their point of view...ill informed or not, again from both sides of the fence. There is no need for it, I thought we were all adults from varying backgrounds trying to put our views across. Even educated people can make very bad decisions, I have seen it first hand in the military and you see it in the UK quite a lot, so really the uneducated or educated can make ill informed choices

People don't get belittled for their point of view, they get belittled for their constant stream of inane and irrelevant replies to serious topics. I have no problem with people thinking that Brexit is the way they want to vote but when they're asked to support their reasons why or are challenged on them, responses such as, "it'll bounce back" or "we'll make new agreements" when all the evidence suggests the opposite, isn't sensible. And when evidence to the contrary is presented from a reliable source and the response to it is always that "it's collusion", "scaremongering" and similar, that tells me their arguments haven't been thought through and/or they don't understand.

So what would the sensible and rational person do when presented with substantial evidence that contradicted their opinion? They might sit back, rethink, regroup, reconsider, question and at least once in 26 pages, agree that a particular opposing point was indeed valid, based on the evidence. Do we ever see that here from the perpetual core team, nope! What we see instead is group response to any opposing issue, one post to one person becomes the subject of negative replies by all and everyone has to support the team by adding "likes" to every post, regardless of how inane ill judged it might be. Then we have the wordsmiths who spout endless prose with virtually no relevant content or long debates about vocabulary and the flamers who join only on weekends, presumably because they're bored, one doesn't add much to the debate and the other actually detracts from it!

As for people not being capable of understanding the complexity of all the issues, that's not a slur, it's a simple observation of fact, not everyone is equipped to do so.

So once again, people don't get belittled for holding a particular view, they get belittled for holding no supportable view when they say they hold a strong one that they've thought through thoroughly.

[Scott]

Inflammatory posts removed along with replies.

[pitrevie]

Football hooliganism has got nothing to do with anything but football.

Let someone mad enough in the political sphere even bother mention it. They'll only further increase the desire for Brexit.

Read what was being chanted again, these so called football fans think otherwise.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: “<deleted> off Europe, we’re all voting out.” They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: “Sit down if you hate the French.”

[brewsterbudgen]

Football hooliganism has got nothing to do with anything but football.

Let someone mad enough in the political sphere even bother mention it. They'll only further increase the desire for Brexit.

Read what was being chanted again, these so called football fans think otherwise.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: “<deleted> off Europe, we’re all voting out.” They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: “Sit down if you hate the French.”

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

[Rancid]

Here we go, most Brits should be familiar with Yes Minister. How to get the polls give you the answer you want:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

[i claudius]

Football hooliganism has got nothing to do with anything but football.

Let someone mad enough in the political sphere even bother mention it. They'll only further increase the desire for Brexit.

Read what was being chanted again, these so called football fans think otherwise.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: “<deleted> off Europe, we’re all voting out.” They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: “Sit down if you hate the French.”

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

I dont see it being thinly veiled , most of us make it quite obvious , we do not want hordes of backward thinking young men ,who come from countrys that have not yet left the middle ages ,descending on Britain , i am sure that is not thinly veiled , and i do not see it as racist .

[Mosha]

If we don't leave, the French will. 81% would vote out if offered a referendum. According to a Euro poll

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

Football hooliganism has got nothing to do with anything but football.

Let someone mad enough in the political sphere even bother mention it. They'll only further increase the desire for Brexit.

Read what was being chanted again, these so called football fans think otherwise.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: “<deleted> off Europe, we’re all voting out.” They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: “Sit down if you hate the French.”

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

Yes indeed! It's sometimes embarrassing to be British!

On occasion, I have resorted to speaking German just in case some people thought I might be British!

Why are some of our brethren like that?

Is it education do you think?

[Grouse]

Football hooliganism has got nothing to do with anything but football.

Let someone mad enough in the political sphere even bother mention it. They'll only further increase the desire for Brexit.

Read what was being chanted again, these so called football fans think otherwise.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: “<deleted> off Europe, we’re all voting out.” They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: “Sit down if you hate the French.”

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

I dont see it being thinly veiled , most of us make it quite obvious , we do not want hordes of backward thinking young men ,who come from countrys that have not yet left the middle ages ,descending on Britain , i am sure that is not thinly veiled , and i do not see it as racist .

To which European countries are you referring?

[Caps]

I was all for the EEC, it was a great idea to allow economic integration among its members. I also think that the European Free Trade Agreement allowing the EEA to come into existant was great too.

All this IMHO made for a good Europe.

What spoilt it for me is when it started to change in to the EU, I think it was with the Maastricht Treaty which gave powers to the European Council....I am sure someone will correct if it is wrong! But whatever it was!

Now we have Junker.., we as a country (I believe)didn't even want him. Who voted for him? I didn't, did you? Yes we vote for our MEP's and I think thats about it. He is just some no mark who failed in Luxembourg. Now this no mark whats to play with his train set. Maybe we should let the House of Lords vote in our next PM and not let the public decide

Why do we need a European Tax number? What has it to do with them how much tax I, we pay. Its another route of a slow, stealth take over. I am not saying we have a great Tax office ourselves but its ours

Why do we need an EU army which in my eyes would be detrimental to HM Forces? I am all for military exercises and common goals but as for the EU Army! Quite a lot of the countries in the EU are in NATO, which quite frankly doesn't have a lot of back bone anyway (look at the Ukraine). Do you think the EU Army will have more, not a chance. It will be another bottomless money pit to pay into with nothing in return. Again its another way of a closer take over

Why do we need a EU Police force? We have interpol and yes the EU arrest warrant is ok, but I am sure countries could have this agreement without all the other stuff that goes with it and I believe there is a new arrangement to allow countries to take their ar53holes back quicker, I am pretty sure that if countries worked at it they could have this also. That way it would not be another bottomless money pit

We also as a country have to be careful who we as a 'Democratic Country' vote for, because according to No Mark Junker if he doesn't like the person a country democratically votes for he won't deal with them, eh! Who does he think he is? Isn't that more like a dictatorship? I hate being dictated to

Then he had the gall to threaten us

I am also for people coming to the UK to live and work. But I also believe it should not be a right of passage for everyman and his 3 legged dog.

As for Law, Legislation and Finance. What is good for one country is not always the best for another. Its a shame really but Greece is down the pan and will possibly need another bail out...more bottomless money pit and what a waste of money from the UK, I am sure we have better things to spend it on! Maybe Italy and Spain won't be far behind? Again it will be a shame but it could happen.

So yes there are a lot of advantages of being a member of Europe but I think that no marks like Junker and his cronies are going to stop at nothing till we are completely under their power/thumb.

I don't want that and I will never want that.

I know this is not the choice of all on this thread, but its mine and I have earned it

On a lighter note, apparently there is a new European Regulation that came into force on 1st May. If you hire a car in Switzerland you can not drive it into a neighbouring country because The rule bans EU citizens from driving non-EU registered hire cars in the EU A European commission spokeswoman said: “EU citizens should try to inform the car rental company in advance if they intend to … drive into the EU. What another load of b0!!ocks

Edited June 12, 2016 by Caps

[Caps]

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

I dont see it being thinly veiled , most of us make it quite obvious , we do not want hordes of backward thinking young men ,who come from countrys that have not yet left the middle ages ,descending on Britain , i am sure that is not thinly veiled , and i do not see it as racist .

To which European countries are you referring?

Morning...

I don't think he was specifically on about European countries, just countries in general

[Mosha]

Football hooliganism has got nothing to do with anything but football.

Let someone mad enough in the political sphere even bother mention it. They'll only further increase the desire for Brexit.

Read what was being chanted again, these so called football fans think otherwise.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: “<deleted> off Europe, we’re all voting out.” They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: “Sit down if you hate the French.”

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

Yes indeed! It's sometimes embarrassing to be British!

On occasion, I have resorted to speaking German just in case some people thought I might be British!

Why are some of our brethren like that?

Is it education do you think?

Some of the thugs might surprise you. Doctors, lawyers and other top end jobs.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

Whilst I do agree about it being on both sides, it's a waste of time perhaps to try and remind that the vast majority of reported news on this subject has come from the Remain side whilst almost non has come from the Brexit side. I've posted over 20 news articles from respected sources and all have been met with silly if not stupid replies, many of them from people who haven't even opened the links, let alone understood the content.

No I'm sorry, whilst there are shortcomings in both groups there's a glaring intellectual and informational shortfall in the Brexit Team, astonishingly so.

Yes you have posted and I have looked at the majority of them and I don't put stupid replies...really the only time I comment is when people try to be-little other people just because of their point of view...ill informed or not, again from both sides of the fence. There is no need for it, I thought we were all adults from varying backgrounds trying to put our views across. Even educated people can make very bad decisions, I have seen it first hand in the military and you see it in the UK quite a lot, so really the uneducated or educated can make ill informed choices

People don't get belittled for their point of view, they get belittled for their constant stream of inane and irrelevant replies to serious topics. I have no problem with people thinking that Brexit is the way they want to vote but when they're asked to support their reasons why or are challenged on them, responses such as, "it'll bounce back" or "we'll make new agreements" when all the evidence suggests the opposite, isn't sensible. And when evidence to the contrary is presented from a reliable source and the response to it is always that "it's collusion", "scaremongering" and similar, that tells me their arguments haven't been thought through and/or they don't understand.

So what would the sensible and rational person do when presented with substantial evidence that contradicted their opinion? They might sit back, rethink, regroup, reconsider, question and at least once in 26 pages, agree that a particular opposing point was indeed valid, based on the evidence. Do we ever see that here from the perpetual core team, nope! What we see instead is group response to any opposing issue, one post to one person becomes the subject of negative replies by all and everyone has to support the team by adding "likes" to every post, regardless of how inane ill judged it might be. Then we have the wordsmiths who spout endless prose with virtually no relevant content or long debates about vocabulary and the flamers who join only on weekends, presumably because they're bored, one doesn't add much to the debate and the other actually detracts from it!

As for people not being capable of understanding the complexity of all the issues, that's not a slur, it's a simple observation of fact, not everyone is equipped to do so.

So once again, people don't get belittled for holding a particular view, they get belittled for holding no supportable view when they say they hold a strong one that they've thought through thoroughly.

Chiang Mai is absolutely correct on this point

Any sensible person will realise that this is a complex issue

There are pros and cons

For some reason, the diehard Brexiteers (you know who you are) can not accept ANY point however valid which would support remaining

Now to me, that is just foolish

You see, I think there is indeed a democratic deficit. I also think our "Border Force" is pathetic. BUT, and on BALANCE, I believe we are better off remaining.

[Grouse]

Read what was being chanted again, these so called football fans think otherwise.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: “<deleted> off Europe, we’re all voting out.” They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: “Sit down if you hate the French.”

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

Yes indeed! It's sometimes embarrassing to be British!

On occasion, I have resorted to speaking German just in case some people thought I might be British!

Why are some of our brethren like that?

Is it education do you think?

Some of the thugs might surprise you. Doctors, lawyers and other top end jobs.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

I would be extremely surprised. City types maybe, but I doubt qualified professionals.

[Grouse]

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

I dont see it being thinly veiled , most of us make it quite obvious , we do not want hordes of backward thinking young men ,who come from countrys that have not yet left the middle ages ,descending on Britain , i am sure that is not thinly veiled , and i do not see it as racist .

To which European countries are you referring?

Morning...

I don't think he was specifically on about European countries, just countries in general

Good morning, Sir!

This thread is concerning EU referendum?

If the comment did not concern European countries? What is the point?

You see Brexit may reduce the numbers of European migrants but what about the migration from countries stuck in the middle ages? (I don't need to list them do I?). Banning halal meat would be a much better idea!

As I've stated many times, I have no problem living cheek by jowl with any other Europeans and I suspect most of those concerned with immigration feel much the same (unless you happen to be a labourer or potato picker!)

[Grouse]

Post-Withdrawal Britain: Why the Swiss Model Wouldn't Work for the UK

For Nigel Farage, the situation is simple. "The people of Norway (and) Switzerland ... are happy," says the head of the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP). "Those countries have their own deals, to maintain the type of trading relationship they want."

It is a standard Farage line. His party, along with many in the Conservative party, is calling for Britain to leave the European Union. They want Brexit. On June 23, the British are voting on the issue and current polls show that it will be extremely close.

David Cameron's government is warning of massive economic losses if the country's electorate chooses to leave Europe behind. His opponents argue that such talk is nothing but scaremongering. Switzerland and Norway, they say, aren't in the EU either -- and both countries are doing just fine.

The argument sounds intriguing at first. Would it be possible for the British, who already have a special status when it comes many to many aspects of the EU, perfect their situation and mutate into a kind of nuclear-armed Switzerland? In other words, could the UK be part of Europe both economically and militarily, but without Brussels' bureaucracy and regulations?

As charming as this may sound to many British voters, such an outcome is an illusion: Brexiteers are deceiving people. Neither the Norwegian nor the Swiss model is even vaguely realistic for Britain.

That can be demonstrated fairly simply when it comes to Norway. The country has twice rejected the prospect of joining the EU and Norway has been part of the European Economic Area (EEA) since 1994. The EEA was established in 1994 and opens its members to a single market with 500 million consumers.

But when they invoke Norway, Brexit campaigners decline to mention the price Oslo must pay to access the single market: EEA members are required to pay into the European Cohesion Fund, which offsets social disparities within the EU. Norway also takes part in a range of other EU programs and pays the same amounts for those as member states do.

All told, this adds up to over 850 million per year. If one takes into account how much money the UK currently receives from the EU, Norway pays almost the same amount per capita as the United Kingdom.

Furthermore, Norway must adhere to countless EU guidelines, like the free movement of workers, without having a voice in EU institutions. Were the UK to leave the EU and join the EEA, the country would continue paying and continue accepting guidelines from Brussels -- but it would no longer have the opportunity to be part of the negotiations that shape the European market.

"The British would lose their influence in the EU, but would have to follow all the rules," says Dennis Snower, head of the Institute of World Economy in Kiel. Originally from the US, Snower lived and researched in London for about 20 years and he describes the "economic irrationality of the Brexit advocates" as "frightening."

Switzerland: Another Illusion

Snower also considers the reference to the Swiss model to be a "fantasy, that is totally unrealistic" and sees the strategy being pursued by Brexiteers as emotional rather than fact-based.

Switzerland isn't a member of the EEA, but it has negotiated over 150 bilateral agreements with the EU over the past 25 years or so. As a result, the Swiss can benefit greatly from EU free trade -- but not, for example, when it comes to financial services. That would be a significant problem for Britain: The financial sector is deeply important for the British economy. And Switzerland too continually adopts European regulations in order to ensure compatibility with the EU, but like Norway, it has no say in their creation.

According to Stephan Breitenmoser, an expert on European law at the University of Basel, Switzerland's status would hardly be enough for the British. Additionally, he says, it is very difficult to make bilateral agreements with the EU. "The more specific the field, the more complicated it becomes," says Breitenmoser. The idea that Britain would attain Switzerland's status in the span of just two years -- the shortest length of time it would take for Brexit to become a reality -- is hard to imagine.

That is particularly true since the EU would have little reason to make similar concessions to the Brits as they do to the smaller nation of Switzerland. An example: Switzerland's agreements with the EU on the freedom of movement of workers are static. Prior to July 1, 1995, the Swiss adopted all EU regulations pertaining to freedom of movement. But the Swiss are not required to automatically adopt all EU regulations on freedom of movent that have been passed since. Rather, they were able to negotiate with Brussels which regulations they would accept. The future of that special status is currently in question because Switzerland is seeking to introduce an annual ceiling for the number of immigrants it is willing to accept.

"The static agreements hardly make sense for the EU anymore because of the rapid development of the laws," says European legal expert Breitenmoser. He believes it is unthinkable that Brussels would make such a deal with Britain.

Whether that's true remains to be seen. What is clear, however, is that the Brits can't have everything. It won't be possible for the UK to turn its back on the EU politically while still maintaining all of the economic advantages of the single market.

by SPIEGEL

I think that every 'Leave' voter knows they'll be a price to be paid if the UK leaves the EU but fears that the cost of remaining will be higher - you sound as if you know the price of everything and the value of nothing. I think UK nationals including many of foreign extraction agree that the social welfare system including the National Health Service as an example has been for many years and is presently being abused and that is linked to a ridiculously open and unregulated immigration policy.

Many feel that their whole way of life, nationality has been for many years and is increasingly under threat particularly from Muslims who do not integrate and believe (at heart) in and want a wholly different social and political system but are willing to cash-in on the present lax and over-generous benefit arrangements which just fuel their rise to dominance They, the Brexit voters, believe that it simply has to stop and that it simply never will under EU steering.

Is it your opinion that many EU migrants are muslim?

[nontabury]

Sadly in the last day or so we are seeing the loutish behavior of those that make you ashamed to be British and will delight those who wish to see the back of us.

Between clashes with the police, fans sang: <deleted> off Europe, were all voting out. They also sang anti-IRA and anti-German songs before singing: Sit down if you hate the French.

It's conceivable that various govts 'dirty tricks' depts could be behind this if true.

I don't think English football fans need any assistance in that respect.

When these events occurred,understandably due to the English fans behavioure of 20 yrs ago,the English fans took the blame. Now however neutral observers to these violent clashes how come out to state that it was Not the English fans,but the locals who started the trouble.

By the way Pitrivie I do know what groups the English,Welsh,Nth Ireland and even the Irish republic teams are in, strangely cannot find the group for Scotland, perhaps you can tell me.

[SgtRock]

One of the most disturbing aspects of the Brexit campaign is the thinly veiled undercurrent of racism and xenophobia. At least the football hooligans are being honest about it.

Racism and xenophobia are so last decade. It no longer washes.

People are judged on their actions. These have been in the UK less than a year.

A Syrian refugee who recently arrived in Britain under David Cameron’s high-profile resettlement programme has been charged with sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/refugee-accused-of-sex-attack-on-girl-14-96tkx06vz

[Caps]

A Syrian refugee who recently arrived in Britain under David Cameron’s high-profile resettlement programme has been charged with sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/refugee-accused-of-sex-attack-on-girl-14-96tkx06vz

That didn't take long