May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Flustered]

Sorry, just laughing at a thought.

 

You talk of morals...This is politics we are talking about. Morals do not come into it. It is dog eat dog. We give an inch and they take a yard.

 

No moral country even exists. High morals will not put rice on your table or a roof over your head.

 

 

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

Any chance of you negotiating on behalf of the EU in the upcoming talks. You would give everything away and ask for nothing in return.

 

Not interested in buying a used car are you? You must be the salesman's dream customer.

You just don't understand do you?

 

Everything is a zero sum game to you.

 

Much of life is not like that.

 

I hope you understand this before it is too late for you ?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

Sorry, just laughing at a thought.

 

You talk of morals...This is politics we are talking about. Morals do not come into it. It is dog eat dog. We give an inch and they take a yard.

 

No moral country even exists. High morals will not put rice on your table or a roof over your head.

 

 

What an awful life you must lead

 

I feel sorry for you

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

What an awful life you must lead

You have never been in negotiation,s have you? If you had, the other side would have had the shirt off of your back.

 

You really are the perfect person to represent the EU.

 

Why do you think it OK for the EU to refuse to talk about UK citizens rights?

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, Flustered said:

You have never been in negotiation,s have you? If you had, the other side would have had the shirt off of your back.

 

You really are the perfect person to represent the EU.

 

Why do you think it OK for the EU to refuse to talk about UK citizens rights?

By agreeing to formalise arrangement for EU citizens resident in the U.K. the matter is off the table. We gain kudos for this. Reciprocal arrangements would automatically follow.

 

You think I have never been involved in high level negotiations? Laughable; if only you knew! Real negotiations operate on multiple levels and multiple parameters. Don't apply for a job with the foreign office...

[citybiker]

There appears to be a clear indication that the EU is only looking out for itself. (See how Hungary got treated over its direct action on its borders). And has been for years, Cameron's pathetic attempt was just that, laughable at best.

That's just one member, and putting it very undiplomatic EU are control freaks, unaccountable and unelected yet wish to continue dictating its members.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Khun Han]

11 minutes ago, Flustered said:

You have never been in negotiation,s have you? If you had, the other side would have had the shirt off of your back.

 

You really are the perfect person to represent the EU.

 

Why do you think it OK for the EU to refuse to talk about UK citizens rights?

 

This is a problem created entirely by the EU. The UK wanted to resolve this months ago with a straightforward reciprocal guarantee, which is as fair and reasonable as it gets. The EU rejected this, back then and now UK remainers are trying to completely scupper it by trying to put into law unilateral guarantees. This frees up the EU's hand to use British citizens living in the EU as hostages in the upcoming negotiations. PM May's govenment can see this for what it is, and will force the bill through, ignoring the Remainer Lords attempts to undermine the government's brexit plan.

[Flustered]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

By agreeing to formalise arrangement for EU citizens resident in the U.K. the matter is off the table. We gain kudos for this. Reciprocal arrangements would automatically follow.

 

You think I have never been involved in high level negotiations? Laughable; if only you knew! Real negotiations operate on multiple levels and multiple parameters. Don't apply for a job with the foreign office...

First, we have to negotiate with 27 countries, if you think they will give us kudos there is no hope for you.

 

With regards to the UK rights in the EU it is not just just Malta against us but others. notably Germany.

 

To quote

"Theresa May has said her offer to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK has been snubbed by “one or two” European leaders.

She told European ambassadors in her keynote speech on Tuesday that she wanted to seal an early deal on the issue of the 3 million settled in the UK and the 1.2 million Britons in Europe, but she did not have the backing of all 27 member states.

“We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain and the rights of Britons in other member states as early as we can,” she said.

 

There you are, we want to do it but Germany and others are against it. So much for your kudos.

 

And, the last place I would quote as an example of negotiating power is the Foreign Office. No wonder you are so quick to give away everything and ask for nothing in return.

 

[Grouse]

27 minutes ago, Flustered said:

First, we have to negotiate with 27 countries, if you think they will give us kudos there is no hope for you.

 

With regards to the UK rights in the EU it is not just just Malta against us but others. notably Germany.

 

To quote

"Theresa May has said her offer to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK has been snubbed by “one or two” European leaders.

She told European ambassadors in her keynote speech on Tuesday that she wanted to seal an early deal on the issue of the 3 million settled in the UK and the 1.2 million Britons in Europe, but she did not have the backing of all 27 member states.

“We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain and the rights of Britons in other member states as early as we can,” she said.

 

There you are, we want to do it but Germany and others are against it. So much for your kudos.

 

And, the last place I would quote as an example of negotiating power is the Foreign Office. No wonder you are so quick to give away everything and ask for nothing in return.

 

How little you know

 

Watch what happens....

 

Fortunately, you and your ilk will be dumbfounded 

 

I can tell you that international discussions are far removed from the school playground ?

[Grouse]

32 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

This is a problem created entirely by the EU. The UK wanted to resolve this months ago with a straightforward reciprocal guarantee, which is as fair and reasonable as it gets. The EU rejected this, back then and now UK remainers are trying to completely scupper it by trying to put into law unilateral guarantees. This frees up the EU's hand to use British citizens living in the EU as hostages in the upcoming negotiations. PM May's govenment can see this for what it is, and will force the bill through, ignoring the Remainer Lords attempts to undermine the government's brexit plan.

JFDI

 

 AND be thankful that we still have some adults in power - The House of Lords.

[SheungWan]

Well Hello! London struggles through Brexit.

 

 

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

How little you know

Let me explain in simple words the complications in the forthcoming negotiations.

 

When the French negotiate large contracts, their lawyers take prime lead as the importance is in how the documents are worded rather than the content. They are concerned that if they have to appear in front of a Court of Law, they will be judged on the legalese and structure of the language rather than content. This makes it very difficult to itemise a contract with the various responsibilities, deliverables and penalties. This is why so many international contracts that are signed in France are constructed under English Law. English Law is considered one of the main foundations of international negotiations.

 

When Germans negotiate large contracts, the prime lead is normally a highly qualified engineer and lawyers are just used to cross the Ts and dot the Is, ensuring that no legal boundaries have been crossed.

 

The British prime lead is usually a Contracts manager specialising in negotiations. lawyers again are used as in the German case.

 

Each country is different so just imagine how these negotiations will go on. The Belgians will expect the negotiations to be held under EU law (whatever that is), the French will want them held in France as they always do, the Germans do not care where they are held as long as they can veto any outcome and the British will have to go along for the ride with the trump card of walking away and deferring to WTO rules. This will hurt the EU far more than the UK.

 

And yes my friend, I do have experience of negotiations at international level I was a Bid manager and lead engineer for a major international industrial company and based in Paris for two years in the mid 90s. The major contracts should only have taken about 6 weeks each but the French used to stretch them out to 3 months or so. All contracts were negotiated in English and under English law at the request of the French partner. This was because they knew how long winded the French Courts are in any disputes.

[Flustered]

Just now, SheungWan said:

Well Hello! London struggles through Brexit.

 

I cannot seem to see any other EU cities named there except London.

 

Am I missing something?   

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I cannot seem to see any other EU cities named there except London.

 

Am I missing something?   

Yes, York(shire) was off the charts.

Edited March 1, 2017 by SheungWan

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Let me explain in simple words the complications in the forthcoming negotiations.

 

 

When the French negotiate large contracts, their lawyers take prime lead as the importance is in how the documents are worded rather than the content. They are concerned that if they have to appear in front of a Court of Law, they will be judged on the legalese and structure of the language rather than content. This makes it very difficult to itemise a contract with the various responsibilities, deliverables and penalties. This is why so many international contracts that are signed in France are constructed under English Law. English Law is considered one of the main foundations of international negotiations.

 

 

When Germans negotiate large contracts, the prime lead is normally a highly qualified engineer and lawyers are just used to cross the Ts and dot the Is, ensuring that no legal boundaries have been crossed.

 

 

The British prime lead is usually a Contracts manager specialising in negotiations. lawyers again are used as in the German case.

 

 

Each country is different so just imagine how these negotiations will go on. The Belgians will expect the negotiations to be held under EU law (whatever that is), the French will want them held in France as they always do, the Germans do not care where they are held as long as they can veto any outcome and the British will have to go along for the ride with the trump card of walking away and deferring to WTO rules. This will hurt the EU far more than the UK.

 

 

And yes my friend, I do have experience of negotiations at international level I was a Bid manager and lead engineer for a major international industrial company and based in Paris for two years in the mid 90s. The major contracts should only have taken about 6 weeks each but the French used to stretch them out to 3 months or so. All contracts were negotiated in English and under English law at the request of the French partner. This was because they knew how long winded the French Courts are in any disputes.

As I thought. Commercial negotiations are all you understand. And yes I understand the cross-cultural issues involved

 

But, some things in life are not purely commercial

 

Some times, occupying the moral high ground is extremely powerful.

 

Stay with junior/middle commercial management and leave the main deal to the more mature people over cigars!

[Flustered]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Yes, York(shire) was off the charts.

Proud to be one and not ashamed of posting where I come from.

 

If we had more Yorkshire men like William Hague in the negotiations we would romp home. (Shame we have John Prescott as well, kind of shoots myself in the foot).

 

 

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

As I thought. Commercial negotiations are all you understand. And yes I understand the cross-cultural issues involved

 

But, some things in life are not purely commercial

 

Some times, occupying the moral high ground is extremely powerful.

 

Stay with junior/middle commercial management and leave the main deal to the more mature people over cigars!

I have given you a like. I love your arrogance and stance that you know everything and everyone else knows nothing about life the universe and everything.

 

These negotiations are commercial if you had not noticed. They are not some nice little discussion about where the next Foreign Office tea party will be. (Scene is a bunch of free loaders puffing on cigars and blah blah blahing away).

 

I have never known in my three score and ten anyone taking the higher moral ground and winning. It is for losers and charities.

 

These negotiations are the most important thing to happen for decades. Just to roll over and hope the the EU will be generous after already stating we will be punished shows how much you know.

 

Go down your route and we are Royally stuffed.

 

You are not French by any chance are you?

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I have given you a like. I love your arrogance and stance that you know everything and everyone else knows nothing about life the universe and everything.

 

These negotiations are commercial if you had not noticed. They are not some nice little discussion about where the next Foreign Office tea party will be. (Scene is a bunch of free loaders puffing on cigars and blah blah blahing away).

 

I have never known in my three score and ten anyone taking the higher moral ground and winning. It is for losers and charities.

 

These negotiations are the most important thing to happen for decades. Just to roll over and hope the the EU will be generous after already stating we will be punished shows how much you know.

 

Go down your route and we are Royally stuffed.

 

You are not French by any chance are you?

How very dare you!

[nontabury]

19 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Yes, York(shire) was off the charts.

 Well we are very particular.

[Flustered]

Just been watching Parliament live from the House of Lords. I have a question for all those who are so concerned about the EU people working in the UK.

What about the UK citizens in the EU, why do they not matter?

The Labour, Lib Dem and Luvvie Lords do not care one fig about the UK citizens. Michael Howard has put forward a very articulate speech asking the bill to go through quickly so that both EU citizens and UK citizens can rest easy. The other side to a person has stated that the EU citizens must come first.

What a slap in the face to the UK populace in general. You do not matter, you can sit and fret while EU citizens are safe and secure.

I ask again, what about the UK citizens in the EU, why do they not matter?

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

Just been watching Parliament live from the House of Lords. I have a question for all those who are so concerned about the EU people working in the UK.

What about the UK citizens in the EU, why do they not matter?

The Labour, Lib Dem and Luvvie Lords do not care one fig about the UK citizens. Michael Howard has put forward a very articulate speech asking the bill to go through quickly so that both EU citizens and UK citizens can rest easy. The other side to a person has stated that the EU citizens must come first.

What a slap in the face to the UK populace in general. You do not matter, you can sit and fret while EU citizens are safe and secure.

I ask again, what about the UK citizens in the EU, why do they not matter?

 

You have to view this as a rearguard action by remain to make the UK government's negotiating position much more difficult. Secure the rights of EU citizens living in the UK, and UK citizens living in the EU are exposed and become a very poweful bargaining point for the EU negotiators. It's through this and other subtle challenges to the UK government's brexit position, that remain hope that brexit will unravel, and we will be forced to accept a humiliating deal with the EU.

[citybiker]

Well it's confirmed, the lords have rejected the Brexit Bill.


The Lords poor attempt to put the Government in its place.

Vote for EU migrants rights in the UK. That'll get reversed in the Commons. It was an insane vote. You agree to guarantee the rights of the EU citizens in the UK when the EU agrees to guarantee the rights of the UK citizens in the EU. To do otherwise hands the EU a HUGE negotiating advantage. To call those who voted in favour is this amendment morons is too kind a description.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Flustered]

Just now, citybiker said:

Well it's confirmed, the lords have rejected the Brexit Bill.


The Lords poor attempt to put the Government in its place.

Vote for EU migrants rights in the UK. That'll get reversed in the Commons. It was an insane vote. You agree to guarantee the rights of the EU citizens in the UK when the EU agrees to guarantee the rights of the UK citizens in the EU. To do otherwise hands the EU a HUGE negotiating advantage.

To call those who voted in favour is this amendment morons is too kind a description.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I watched the debate, it was embarrassing. These jumped up free loading un elected jack asses actually stated they were more interested in ensuring the rights of EU citizens over those of UK citizens.

 

Michael Howard was so articulate and put the case extremely well. In response, all the other side and Bremoaners could say was "we must think of the 3.5 million EU citizens first".

 

Bloody shambles and at least it will get smartly turned around in the commons.

 

The Lords are on a hiding to nothing. They have  done themselves no favours and actually put back to point at which EU citizens can feel assured of staying.

[Flustered]

There you have it..

 

"Within three months of exercising the power under section 1(1), Ministers of the Crown must bring forward proposals to ensure that citizens of another European Union or European Economic Area country and their family members, who are legally resident in the United Kingdom on the day on which this Act is passed, continue to be treated in the same way with regards to their EU derived-rights and, in the case of residency, their potential to acquire such rights in the future."

 

Not a word about the rights and security of UK citizens. They don't give a damn about their own people.

 

Disgraceful.

[citybiker]

Completely agree, the Lords are damn fools for showing just how out of touch they really are, giving priority to EU citizens already within the UK without a reciprocal to U.K. Citizens abroad.

Traitors of their own people, I bet they feel proud..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Basil B]

Totally agree...

 

This is a very important issue, certainly for those have lived and worked in the UK and EU for over 5 years but it should be reciprocal, and I am sure it is very high on the negotiation list.

 

The Old Farts Club seem to know how to make a stink...

Edited March 1, 2017 by Basil B

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

Completely agree, the Lords are damn fools for showing just how out of touch they really are, giving priority to EU citizens already within the UK without a reciprocal to U.K. Citizens abroad.

Traitors of their own people, I bet they feel proud..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That complete list of UK traitors in full (in chronological order):

The High Court Judges.

The Supreme Court.

The House of Commons.

The House of Lords.

.....Just one more in the pack required to make a Full House.

Edited March 1, 2017 by SheungWan

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, citybiker said:

IIRC The EU have already stated that the issue 'the lords' are addressing will not be debated until Art 50 is invoked.

Why concede to allow all 3.5million EU citizens to remain in the U.K. When the Government haven't received mutual reassurances over the 1million UK citizens in the EU..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The UK should not crawl in the gutter, irrespective of what anyone else does.

Two wrongs will never make a right.

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, Flustered said:

Just been watching Parliament live from the House of Lords. I have a question for all those who are so concerned about the EU people working in the UK.

What about the UK citizens in the EU, why do they not matter?

The Labour, Lib Dem and Luvvie Lords do not care one fig about the UK citizens. Michael Howard has put forward a very articulate speech asking the bill to go through quickly so that both EU citizens and UK citizens can rest easy. The other side to a person has stated that the EU citizens must come first.

What a slap in the face to the UK populace in general. You do not matter, you can sit and fret while EU citizens are safe and secure.

I ask again, what about the UK citizens in the EU, why do they not matter?

If they mattered at all, they would have been allowed to vote on their own future. Bit late to start taking the high ground.

[sandyf]

Something else for the leavers to get wound up about.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-gina-miller-article-50-theresa-may-court-case-three-knights-opinion-a7606346.html