Do I need a lawyer to buy a condo?

[Tracyb]

Some of the units in this development are listed for rent on Airbnb.  Just a thought........  How would you feel about living next door to a unit that has frequent new tenants moving in and having no regard for noise, wear and tear, safety, security, shady drug deals.......or worse.  You can cut and paste the URL below and have a look. Also, what do the condo rules and regs have to say about short term rentals????

 

 https://th.airbnb.com/rooms/12398746

Edited March 28, 2017 by Tracyb
added info

[champers]

1 hour ago, Tracyb said:

Some of the units in this development are listed for rent on Airbnb.  Just a thought........  How would you feel about living next door to a unit that has frequent new tenants moving in and having no regard for noise, wear and tear, safety, security, shady drug deals.......or worse.  You can cut and paste the URL below and have a look. Also, what do the condo rules and regs have to say about short term rentals????

 

 https://th.airbnb.com/rooms/12398746

Some good points, Tracyb. Thank you. I had some problems with neighbours when I had a property in the UK, but I refused to be cowed by them. I could find the same issues renting or buying here. I don't want to be hopping around from property to property; I want some stability and continuity. I have a belief that most people are honest and decent but know full well there are bad people around too. I have to use my knowledge of living in my condo for 5 months as a guide for my future decisions. Also, the advice in this thread is a help though sometimes it is contradictory.

Edited March 28, 2017 by champers

[trogers]

35 minutes ago, champers said:

Some good points, Tracyb. Thank you. I had some problems with neighbours when I had a property in the UK, but I refused to be cowed by them. I could find the same issues renting or buying here. I don't want to be hopping around from property to property; I want some stability and continuity. I have a belief that most people are honest and decent but know full well there are bad people around too. I have to use my knowledge of living in my condo for 5 months as a guide for my future decisions. Also, the advice in this thread is a help though sometimes it is contradictory.

Would advice you to stay till a couple of months before your lease contract expires before taking action to buy a unit.

 

Get to know about each building and the facing of the units, hot, cool, rain soak, etc...and the type of people there.

 

Also, do look at units with owners looking to sell with a substantial discount from the developer's price. These owners could have bought during the initial launch of the project at prices 15-20% lower than today's developer prices.

[bazza73]

No, you don't need a lawyer to buy a condo. You do, however, need your sanity tested.

[whoareyou]

Paying for a lawyer here is just a donation.

Hundreds of thousands have gone lawyer free and zero problems

It's a very straight forward process but some farang can not let go of past habits in countries that force you to pay a lawyer... Win win, for the lawyers..

[oxo1947]

16 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

No, you don't need a lawyer to buy a condo. You do, however, need your sanity tested

That's what some of the older hands told me in the bars when I moved to Pattaya nearly 20 years ago....some are still there leaning against the same bar giving the same advice before popping over to the real estate to pay their rent as they have been doing for the last 23 years..... Financial wizards after 3 Singha's ....................

[geisha]

Have you had a look at all the other condos for sale ? There are a lot, but just choose the area you are interested in. I find the general building quality atrocious, but again, these are not expensive condos. I compared a few last year in Jomtien. 

I saw one or two that looked really solid , similar to what you would find in Europe.

Then others, that are only 2/3 years old, where the paint ( blue) is peeeling off and maybe in another 2/3 years will be falling apart. You'll know where I'm talking about. 

There was not a huge  price difference between the solid and the  other ones.

[bazza73]

4 hours ago, oxo1947 said:

That's what some of the older hands told me in the bars when I moved to Pattaya nearly 20 years ago....some are still there leaning against the same bar giving the same advice before popping over to the real estate to pay their rent as they have been doing for the last 23 years..... Financial wizards after 3 Singha's ....................

If they've been still able to pay their rent after 23 years on a fixed income, what does that say about capital appreciation of property here?

[MyFriend You]

I know lots of people will say you don't need a Lawyer, I say "get a Lawyer"   a third set of eyes is always good, especially for the amount of money you are likely to invest.  It appear you have been renting there for awhile so you pbly have a good idea what kind of Mgt there is........Lawyers doing your side of the paperwork is always a "eye opener" for the other party that you are no one to be messed with.  Worth every penny in my opinon.

[trogers]

36 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

If they've been still able to pay their rent after 23 years on a fixed income, what does that say about capital appreciation of property here?

Says poor appreciation of rental values...

[oxo1947]

1 hour ago, bazza73 said:

If they've been still able to pay their rent after 23 years on a fixed income, what does that say about capital appreciation of property here?

I think bazza73  it says that I should have brought one of the new 3 storey shop houses that were being built in soi buakaow & sold for 2.4 million at that time. but I took their advice and didn't--My friends are now paying 10k A month (I concede that they were not paying that much 23 years ago---if you will concede that they will be paying a lot more than that in years to come.)

So if we take the 10k  as a medium  x 12 Months 120,000 x 23 years = over 2.7 million

They would now have no rent--and the property itself would  will have doubled by then.

Yes they are on a fixed income --and are struggling, some taking smaller rooms some talking about moving out, some even saying if the UK pound goes down any-more--they wont be able to pay the rent.

 

When have you ever heard that bricks & mortar are a bad investment ?

 

Sure you have to take care in what you do--

when you buy---

how you buy 

what safe guards. 

 

You can own a condo outright--(that's what this posts is about--a guy buying a condo) so I moved to Issan 10 years ago---brought a house with a  usufruct , by a lake--able to just walk into town, its also up in price--as is a lot of Issan.

 

Its a world of free choice---you want to pay rent for the rest of your life---fine....maybe it will never go up/maybe someone wont buy it from the owner for himself......maybe long term all the prices on property will go down............

 

Quote

what does that say about capital appreciation of property here? --bazzer73

 

Ask Google bazzer---they admit the that property is on the way down at the moment, if your old enough (i'm in the 70s) you have seen it all before---here & back home.

So the Bank of Thailand  say its a very slow market--& give Inflation adjustment as figures as...

Condo up 5.2%----Townhouses up 3.6% singfle houses hit the hardest---up 0.4%

Please no conspiracy stuff its on their web site---there will be places--areas-- that are worse than others---Pattaya has probably overbuilt--(maybe BKK is 10% Pattaya none) -it had overbuilt when I first arrived there in the 90s & took my friends advice.....don't hold you breath for a fire sale (other than individuals) no rates to pay no outgoings as such----or as one Thai put it to me when I offered him a low price on something years ago---"sell cheap why --it doesn't eat anything"  -= if the building is complete its not costing him.

 

Bank of Thailand

The condominium segment saw price rises slow to 4.7% (5.2% inflation-adjusted) during the year to Q1 2016, down from 8.9% (9.5% inflation-adjusted) during the year to Q1 2015, according to the Bank of Thailand (BoT).

Townhouse price rises decelerated to 3.1% (3.6% inflation-adjusted) during the year to Q1 2016, from 7.3% (7.8% inflation-adjusted) during the year to Q1 2015; although the figure is a slight improvement from the previous quarter’s 3.0% growth (3.9% inflation-adjusted).

The single-detached housing market dropped, albeit slightly, by 0.1% during the year to Q1 2016 (0.4% inflation-adjusted) - compared to price growth a year ago of 6.5% (7% inflation-adjusted).

 

 

 

[bazza73]

8 hours ago, oxo1947 said:

I think bazza73  it says that I should have brought one of the new 3 storey shop houses that were being built in soi buakaow & sold for 2.4 million at that time. but I took their advice and didn't--My friends are now paying 10k A month (I concede that they were not paying that much 23 years ago---if you will concede that they will be paying a lot more than that in years to come.)

So if we take the 10k  as a medium  x 12 Months 120,000 x 23 years = over 2.7 million

They would now have no rent--and the property itself would  will have doubled by then.

Yes they are on a fixed income --and are struggling, some taking smaller rooms some talking about moving out, some even saying if the UK pound goes down any-more--they wont be able to pay the rent.

 

When have you ever heard that bricks & mortar are a bad investment ?

 

Sure you have to take care in what you do--

when you buy---

how you buy 

what safe guards. 

 

You can own a condo outright--(that's what this posts is about--a guy buying a condo) so I moved to Issan 10 years ago---brought a house with a  usufruct , by a lake--able to just walk into town, its also up in price--as is a lot of Issan.

 

Its a world of free choice---you want to pay rent for the rest of your life---fine....maybe it will never go up/maybe someone wont buy it from the owner for himself......maybe long term all the prices on property will go down............

 

 

Ask Google bazzer---they admit the that property is on the way down at the moment, if your old enough (i'm in the 70s) you have seen it all before---here & back home.

So the Bank of Thailand  say its a very slow market--& give Inflation adjustment as figures as...

Condo up 5.2%----Townhouses up 3.6% singfle houses hit the hardest---up 0.4%

Please no conspiracy stuff its on their web site---there will be places--areas-- that are worse than others---Pattaya has probably overbuilt--(maybe BKK is 10% Pattaya none) -it had overbuilt when I first arrived there in the 90s & took my friends advice.....don't hold you breath for a fire sale (other than individuals) no rates to pay no outgoings as such----or as one Thai put it to me when I offered him a low price on something years ago---"sell cheap why --it doesn't eat anything"  -= if the building is complete its not costing him.

 

Bank of Thailand

The condominium segment saw price rises slow to 4.7% (5.2% inflation-adjusted) during the year to Q1 2016, down from 8.9% (9.5% inflation-adjusted) during the year to Q1 2015, according to the Bank of Thailand (BoT).

 

Townhouse price rises decelerated to 3.1% (3.6% inflation-adjusted) during the year to Q1 2016, from 7.3% (7.8% inflation-adjusted) during the year to Q1 2015; although the figure is a slight improvement from the previous quarter’s 3.0% growth (3.9% inflation-adjusted).

 

The single-detached housing market dropped, albeit slightly, by 0.1% during the year to Q1 2016 (0.4% inflation-adjusted) - compared to price growth a year ago of 6.5% (7% inflation-adjusted).

 

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Property will always be a good investment for someone in their twenties to forties. For someone in their seventies, like you and me, it's not a good investment. I make far more on the stock market and peer-to-peer lending than I pay out in rental. A ratio of ten to one last year.

No falang OWNS property in Thailand. If it's a house, a Thai owns the land underneath it. If it's a condo, there is mandated 51% Thai ownership. To me, the definition of ownership is you have complete control over something. Here, no falang does.

Over the 9 years I have lived here, my rent has decreased from 10,000 baht/month to 8500 baht/month.Same apartment. Landlords in Chiang Mai are desperate for good tenants - it's a renters market here with so many untenanted properties.

 

The other issue for me is the inconvenient fact a falang has no legal protection against an unfavourable Immigration decision. Anyone can be booted out with no recourse. In that situation, I would much rather be a renter in terms of potential loss.

 

You can quote as many official statistics as you like. I gave up believing in them years ago because they are almost always manipulated to suit a particular agenda. Example: Employment statistics in Australia. One hour's employment a MONTH, and you are no longer unemployed. Yeah right.

You go your way,and I'll go mine. As long as we are both happy, no worries.

Edited March 29, 2017 by bazza73
Addition

[sarwardee]

On 27/03/2017 at 5:02 PM, Peterw42 said:

There are checks at the land office and the sale cant go ahead if the seller has a mortgage, unpaid condo fees etc

I wasn't aware that outstanding condo fees such as annual maintenance were reported to the Land Office.

That means there are fifty owners in our block can't buy @ present.

We are carrying an outstanding debt of 50 million baht from owners who have not paid ....

[trogers]

19 minutes ago, sarwardee said:

I wasn't aware that outstanding condo fees such as annual maintenance were reported to the Land Office.

That means there are fifty owners in our block can't buy @ present.

We are carrying an outstanding debt of 50 million baht from owners who have not paid ....

A seller would use part of the 10% down payment from the buyer to clear outstanding debts with the juristic office to obtain the clearance of juristic debt certificate.

 

If the property is under a mortgage, the buyer would make a cashier's cheque in favour of the creditor who would be at the Land office to sign and clear the mortgage for the title transfer to the buyer.

 

The balance of the purchase price should be in another cashier's cheque made to the seller.

[Peterw42]

22 minutes ago, sarwardee said:

I wasn't aware that outstanding condo fees such as annual maintenance were reported to the Land Office.

That means there are fifty owners in our block can't buy @ present.

We are carrying an outstanding debt of 50 million baht from owners who have not paid ....

To sell a condo, the seller needs to provide a letter, from the condo management, to the land office stating that the condo fees are up to date, and within the 49% quota if a foreign title sale. Commonly referred to as a debt certificate.

[oxo1947]

2 hours ago, bazza73 said:

Property will always be a good investment for someone in their twenties to forties. For someone in their seventies, like you and me, it's not a good investment.

I agree with you on this bazza73--I took the 73 in your name as being like my 47... DOB. So most of my reasoning for buying a house 10 years ago---was a pass on to my wife of 18 years---if single I may have well gone the Condo route.

I know with the condo route is a 51% -49% but the Thai owners really are not from Mars--most want whatever is best for the Condo block, their money is tied up in it also. Their just tenants like us.

 

2 hours ago, bazza73 said:

The other issue for me is the inconvenient fact a falang has no legal protection against an unfavourable Immigration decision. Anyone can be booted out with no recourse.

I do not feel this is correct bazza---when did you last hear of a person on here being told to leave the county for no reason at all--for braking no rules at all----(if you are just here doing boarder runs, then I would not contemplate investing in anything)  --by the way there is a recourse action, if you feel that ---Siam legal page covers it.

 

2 hours ago, bazza73 said:

You can quote as many official statistics as you like. I gave up believing in them years ago

Well what can I say bazza---we are back to the conspiracy theories  again---why BKK Bank would want to print false figures (They are saying the market is dropping at the moment) I don't know.

-----------------

I don't quite see how the Australian employment figures fit into this discussion bazza...so I am  a little at lost there.

-------------------

Your rent has gone down----great, you are in a down rental market at the moment--I am sure some stories from Pattaya will be the same.--but -tell me with hand on heart, if we did a survey, would the majority of people on here all be saying----Yes since coming to Thailand---my rent has done nothing but get reduced.

 

Thank you for your reply bazza--- I'm a plastic Oz.....28 years there--wonderful country.

 

[trogers]

12 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

To sell a condo, the seller needs to provide a letter, from the condo management, to the land office stating that the condo fees are up to date, and within the 49% quota if a foreign title sale. Commonly referred to as a debt certificate.

They are two separate certificates. One is clearance of debts to the juristic, and the other is to show the present % of foreign ownership.

[snoopy21]

One more thing, when I bought condo here, the land office asked for proof of remittance from my own country designated for buying condo.

[scubascuba3]

I wasn't aware that outstanding condo fees such as annual maintenance were reported to the Land Office.
That means there are fifty owners in our block can't buy @ present.
We are carrying an outstanding debt of 50 million baht from owners who have not paid ....

If i was on a condo committee i would automatically kick off legal action when the 5 years maintenance fee rule is reached, but give the owners a warning every year so they know it's coming.

Does this happen as standard? I doubt it.

[trogers]

38 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

If i was on a condo committee i would automatically kick off legal action when the 5 years maintenance fee rule is reached, but give the owners a warning every year so they know it's coming.

Does this happen as standard? I doubt it.

In my condo, a warning letter is issued upon accummulating 6 months of unpaid common fees.

[bazza73]

4 hours ago, oxo1947 said:

I agree with you on this bazza73--I took the 73 in your name as being like my 47... DOB. So most of my reasoning for buying a house 10 years ago---was a pass on to my wife of 18 years---if single I may have well gone the Condo route.

I know with the condo route is a 51% -49% but the Thai owners really are not from Mars--most want whatever is best for the Condo block, their money is tied up in it also. Their just tenants like us.

 

I do not feel this is correct bazza---when did you last hear of a person on here being told to leave the county for no reason at all--for braking no rules at all----(if you are just here doing boarder runs, then I would not contemplate investing in anything)  --by the way there is a recourse action, if you feel that ---Siam legal page covers it.

 

Well what can I say bazza---we are back to the conspiracy theories  again---why BKK Bank would want to print false figures (They are saying the market is dropping at the moment) I don't know.

-----------------

I don't quite see how the Australian employment figures fit into this discussion bazza...so I am  a little at lost there.

-------------------

Your rent has gone down----great, you are in a down rental market at the moment--I am sure some stories from Pattaya will be the same.--but -tell me with hand on heart, if we did a survey, would the majority of people on here all be saying----Yes since coming to Thailand---my rent has done nothing but get reduced.

 

Thank you for your reply bazza--- I'm a plastic Oz.....28 years there--wonderful country.

 

OK, I'll clarify the Australian employment statement for you.

Australia is on the upper level in terms of purported freedom from corruption. Thailand isn't what you would call famous for its lack of corruption.

So when a shining light like Australia is producing a completely corrupted statistic on employment, do you think a Thai bank, which has a vested interest in making housing figures look good, will be as pure as the driven snow?

Call it conspiracy theory if you want. I call it healthy skepticism.

 

I don't feel I can agree with your statement Thai owners are not from Mars. My condo has the situation where the body corporate fees have not increased for 20 years. The management has run out of money. Every time they have a vote on increasing the fees, the Thai majority (mostly absentee) vetoes it. So it's looking as if the swimming pool could be shut down to save the considerable costs of running it.

If that does happen, there will be the following consequences: Renters like me will desert it. Rental income will adjust to a much lower level. The capital values will drop like a bus off a cliff.

Yes, that is a one-off example. I do know,however, of other condos in CM which have ongoing problems such as rusty water or dodgy electrics because there is no money in their sinking funds to fix them.

You'll have to explain the term plastic Oz to me, haven't struck it before.

Edited March 29, 2017 by bazza73
Explanation

[scubascuba3]

In my condo, a warning letter is issued upon accummulating 6 months of unpaid common fees.

Does that escalate so they know after 5 years legal action commences to seize the condo?

[trogers]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Does that escalate so they know after 5 years legal action commences to seize the condo?

We don't wait five years. A year is long enough.

[sarwardee]

16 hours ago, trogers said:

In my condo, a warning letter is issued upon accummulating 6 months of unpaid common fees.

thanks for your input Trogers. Can I inquire to extent you have been successful with recalcitrant owners not paying their annual maintenance fees?

 

We have sent letters, made phone calls, added % fine, and suggested legal action, but still ... nothing.

So much baht still outstanding that it makes it difficult to run the condo properly. 

 

Why was this allowed to happen here? Is legal action so ineffectual that the recalcitrant owners know it is only used in absolute last resort cases

and only when there is a huge amount owing? 

 

Is there a more effective way that anyone knows? I appreciate your help.

[sarwardee]

11 hours ago, trogers said:

We don't wait five years. A year is long enough.

long enough to do what trogers? what is a condo committee legally allowed to do after one year in terms of trying to get the owner to pay? 

thanx

[sarwardee]

21 hours ago, bazza73 said:

If it's a condo, there is mandated 51% Thai ownership.

I am unaware that a Thai owns 51% of my condo?

How can I find out who is this mysterious person? 

[trogers]

1 hour ago, sarwardee said:

thanks for your input Trogers. Can I inquire to extent you have been successful with recalcitrant owners not paying their annual maintenance fees?

 

We have sent letters, made phone calls, added % fine, and suggested legal action, but still ... nothing.

So much baht still outstanding that it makes it difficult to run the condo properly. 

 

Why was this allowed to happen here? Is legal action so ineffectual that the recalcitrant owners know it is only used in absolute last resort cases

and only when there is a huge amount owing? 

 

Is there a more effective way that anyone knows? I appreciate your help.

If your project consists mainly of small units, making monthly common fees only just over a thousand baht, your committee can approve taking legal action when the quantum owed reaches Bt30,000.

 

If short of funds, engage a legal firm with the agreement that they would be paid a % of the money awarded and collected from the legal suits, either through court awarded or mutual settlement.

 

The committee can then proceed to lodge legal suits in court through the Juristic Manager. Only when these non-paying owners get a court summons would they wake up because they need to either engage their own lawyers or to settle their debts.

Edited March 29, 2017 by trogers

[trogers]

1 hour ago, sarwardee said:

I am unaware that a Thai owns 51% of my condo?

How can I find out who is this mysterious person? 

A Thai does not own 51% of your condo unit.

 

But collectively, 51% of the land and common areas of a condo development must be owned by Thais, meaning, they own 51% of the total condo units by internal areas and have 51% of the voting rights.

 

The Thais have more than 51% ownership rights in all 3 condo projects that I bought into, in Bangkok.

Edited March 29, 2017 by trogers

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, trogers said:

If your project consists mainly of small units, making monthly common fees only just over a thousand baht, your committee can approve taking legal action when the quantum owed reaches Bt30,000.

 

Where do you get those figures from? As far as I know there it no written indication anywhere as to the level at which a committee can or cant decide to take legal action to recover debts. It's up to them, and their interpretation of what the court is likely to consider worth bothering with. The only definitive figures that I know of are the ones relating to fines/interest.

That said, debts in buildings I know of reached much higher levels than that before legal action was taken but in those buildings there was no cash shortage.

[scubascuba3]

your committee can approve taking legal action when the quantum owed reaches Bt30,000.
 

Does this mean if the condo owner owes 30,000 baht or above legal action can commence? So what's this 5 year thing mentioned on another thread?