A fine old mess

[Deserted]

Greetings. I cycle a lot everywhere and do thousands of kms each year (no comments on what you think of that please, its not what this post is about) Late last year, I had an accident almost right outside the Vaphiwadi Hospital. The voluntary service was called and took more there unconscious, where I was monitored. When I came round they said we think you should CT scan and a few other things. I said no and walked straight out.

 

Sadly on Din Daeng a similar thing happened on my bike on Din Daeng as a Garbage Truck slammed the brakes on and I couldn't get out of the way in time. Unconscious on the road for a second time the volunteer service was called. They then took me across town past many government hospitals to the Bungrumrad hospital whilst I was unconscious. The doctors there claimed I had a seizure and performed 3 scans, one on chest, one on neck and one on head, all of which showed nothing. So when I came round, they said oh here's your bill of 54000 baht. I walked straight out even though I was very bloody from the accident.

 

I did not ask to be taken there but some volunteer decided and I did not give consent for parts of my body to be scanned either. I did not appreciate regaining consciousness, feeling ok and then being hit by a massive bill. I spoke to staff on the phone and they were very understanding and took my side but side it is hospital policy to do whatever is necessary to save a life. I explained that the Vipawadi hospital did not do such a thing and monitored me, and that trained medics are more than capable of doing this. I then explained that not all foreigners are wealthy here and I genuinely can't cover that bill and I don't think I should because they carried out such actions without my consent. They were understanding and I have since spoken to many and decided I am not going to pay for scans that showed absolutely nothing, cost 15000 baht a time and I never asked for them. As I left they said the police station will hold my bicycle which I no longer have access to and depend upon. Am I in the wrong here? I never chose to go there and I did not ask them to carry out such actions. That's their policy not my requests in play. I should not be responsible for some volunteer who thinks I can just pick up any bill thrown at them. What's the best thing to do here?

[swissie]

What if those scans would have shown a serious injury, that would have needed immediate treatment to save your live?

Not having health insurance and not having emergency funds to cover a hospital bill of US$ 1600 ? Hmmm.....
Another hospital-bill that will remain unpaid by a Farang?

Do you realise, that this is the reason that more and more Thai-Hospitals refuse treatment for Farangs, unless their ability to pay is established before they do ANYTHING AT ALL, even in an emergency?
Cheers.

[gmac]

3 minutes ago, swissie said:

What if those scans would have shown a serious injury, that would have needed immediate treatment to save your live?

Not having health insurance and not having emergency funds to cover a hospital bill of US$ 1600 ? Hmmm.....
Another hospital-bill that will remain unpaid by a Farang?

Do you realise, that this is the reason that more and more Thai-Hospitals refuse treatment for Farangs, unless their ability to pay is established before they do ANYTHING AT ALL, even in an emergency?
Cheers.

If it wasn't for the blatant overcharging and unnecessary procedures undertaken to pad bills the Farangs might a little less likely to try avoiding payment.  Taken into a private hospital as the OP was even though Government hospitals were closer, I tend to agree with his feelings on the matter.  As an accident victim you don't know what treatments are necessary, if it seemed that serious why wasn't he taken to the closest one rather than the one where the volunteer service gained the most commission.  

[thequietman]

I think its clear that the meat truck took you to that hospital because he is paid to do so.

If it was me I suppose I would be a little pissed, however you can't put a price on life. Maybe go to the government hospital that he passed and find out the costs of the same procedures there and pay that to Bungrumrad hospital. I think its unfair to not pay anything.

This is your second time, take out some accident insurance. It's not that expensive. Good luck.

[Deserted]

i went past 6 hospitals, why did I have to be taken to the most expensive one? That really bugs me. 

[Deserted]

You don't need scans galore to save a life. Medics have done that for decades before they were in use and did it last year. I had no injuries on my chest or neck at all. Nothing, so why were they scanned, the scans showed nothing, I just had a cut above my eye and one on my chin. But they did claim I had a seizure. How true that is I don't know I was knocked out. It's not that I don't want to pay but that I can't. Not all of us have money lying about especially when I just had to pay school fees which wiped me out. The Vipawadee hospital behaved very differently.

[Deserted]

4 hours ago, thequietman said:

I think its clear that the meat truck took you to that hospital because he is paid to do so.

If it was me I suppose I would be a little pissed, however you can't put a price on life. Maybe go to the government hospital that he passed and find out the costs of the same procedures there and pay that to Bungrumrad hospital. I think its unfair to not pay anything.

This is your second time, take out some accident insurance. It's not that expensive. Good luck.

 its true you can't put a price on life but they could surely have monitored me like happened last time until I came round and then asked me what options I wanted to take. 

[Deserted]

4 hours ago, swissie said:

What if those scans would have shown a serious injury, that would have needed immediate treatment to save your live?

Not having health insurance and not having emergency funds to cover a hospital bill of US$ 1600 ? Hmmm.....
Another hospital-bill that will remain unpaid by a Farang?

Do you realise, that this is the reason that more and more Thai-Hospitals refuse treatment for Farangs, unless their ability to pay is established before they do ANYTHING AT ALL, even in an emergency?
Cheers.

This is why I am unsure of what to do but are scans going to show anything when I had no injuries at all on my chest or neck and only a cut above my eye? Was all that so necessary?

[swissie]

3 minutes ago, Deserted said:

You don't need scans galore to save a life. Medics have done that for decades before they were in use and did it last year. I had no injuries on my chest or neck at all. Nothing, so why were they scanned, the scans showed nothing, I just had a cut above my eye and one on my chin. But they did claim I had a seizure. How true that is I don't know I was knocked out. It's not that I don't want to pay but that I can't. Not all of us have money lying about especially when I just had to pay school fees which wiped me out. The Vipawadee hospital behaved very differently.

Could be they got their commission from the hospital in question. OR: They figured a Farang has the means to pay for a "good" hospital, knowing that sometimes government hospitals "are not so good". We will never know.

Cheers.

[mommysboy]

At a rough guess I'd say they acted beyone their remit.  I think only one of the mods could likely comment. 

[Deserted]

4 hours ago, swissie said:

Could be they got their commission from the hospital in question. OR: They figured a Farang has the means to pay for a "good" hospital, knowing that sometimes government hospitals "are not so good". We will never know.

Cheers.

I have been told that by several people and when I said it to the staff at the Bungrumrad they agreed with me. At another hospital I went to after the doctor said that the volunteer service will get bigger donations if they take you to private hospitals. 

[Deserted]

If I was loaded I would pay it but I really am not. I couldn't even pay half of it and have lost my transport as a result. It's put me in a difficult position and I did nothing wrong. I was the victim yet I get hit for heavy bills for work that achieved nothing and I never asked for. It just isn't right to me. 

[mommysboy]

How about patying 5000 baht a month, and try to negotiate down.  You do owe something. 

 

A modest Thai Health policy would likely have covered most of this, and woulkd cost about 12000 baht per year.

[Deserted]

well I just started a new job. I signed the contract the day before and it has Bupa Insurance apparantly. Never had it before. WOuld the accident be covered, would they post date the accident by a week or two. I am told it won't be valid until next week and at present I am not covered. You are right I do owe something but nothing like what they are asking for in my opinion.

[Deserted]

i was not covered at the time of the accident but if they want to help me clear it, can't they post date the accident by two weeks? How much of it would Bupa cover?

[ajarngreg]

Op, you walked away from a hospital after your first accident, without paying the bill, just to have another accident where you'd been unconscious.

 

      Would you like to have a lung infection from a crowded ICU at a government hospital?

 

           You are angry that the cops keep your bike, but you do not think about a solution to your problem, as somebody has already mentioned, eventually monthly rates?

 

        You should stop blaming the bad guys who helped you a lot. You could have had inner bleeding, but you do not seem to get it.

 

        If you don't value your own life, it's really time to go to school and develop a common sense what's right and what's wrong.

 

     

 

    

 

         

 

       

Edited April 19, 2017 by ajarngreg

[tonray]

If you don't want to be saddled with debts whilst you are stone out cold, then buy accident insurance or stay off the road. 

[Deserted]

Ajarngreg Read it more carefully, I did not walk away from the first accident as no action was taken as none was needed and the point of the post is to gain opinions other than my own, so yes I do think about the situation, in fact I don't stop. And yes of course I value my own life. Read the thread more carefully. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Deserted

[mommysboy]

Government hospitals are a good option. 

 

No back dating.

 

Try what I said.  It's good you have some health insurance now.

[Deserted]

4 hours ago, tonray said:

If you don't want to be saddled with debts whilst you are stone out cold, then buy accident insurance or stay off the road. 

Agreed. First accident was the first in over 30 years of cycling, I did not think it would happen again. It has so yes point taken but it is the case at hand which is the purpose of the thread

[Deserted]

5 hours ago, gmac said:

If it wasn't for the blatant overcharging and unnecessary procedures undertaken to pad bills the Farangs might a little less likely to try avoiding payment.  Taken into a private hospital as the OP was even though Government hospitals were closer, I tend to agree with his feelings on the matter.  As an accident victim you don't know what treatments are necessary, if it seemed that serious why wasn't he taken to the closest one rather than the one where the volunteer service gained the most commission.  

Yes, I was literally 100 meters from a good public hospital yet they sent me much further, anything could have happened. Would I have had a seizure if I had assistance 20 mins earlier? I don't know.

[tonray]

4 minutes ago, Deserted said:

Agreed. First accident was the first in over 30 years of cycling, I did not think it would happen again. It has so yes point taken but it is the case at hand which is the purpose of the thread

Bottom line is an unconscious person is deemed not competent to make decisions for himself and therefore applicable laws apply regarding medical staff and treatment, in short I believe they can order anything within reason and you are on the hook. If they had ordered a prostate biopsy maybe you would have a case but I think based upon circumstances, it seems reasonable. 

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, Deserted said:

Yes, I was literally 100 meters from a good public hospital yet they sent me much further, anything could have happened. Would I have had a seizure if I had assistance 20 mins earlier? I don't know.

You should have been taken there. I expect the bill would have been around 20,000 baht.  Perhaps you can make that point.

 

If you are coming on this thread to garner support for a claim that you should pay nothing then be prepared for harsh criticism.

[eisfeld]

No insurance, bicycle as main mode of transportation on BKK roads, tailgating a truck, thinking about back dating the accident which is insurance fraud... hm sorry to say but you really should rethink your decision making process all around.

 

If you as a foreigner got a job then surely you are being paid something like 50k THB? Negotiate the total amount down and then do monthly payments of 2-3k for a year or so. That shouldn't hurt too much and at least you get out of that story. And after that year, keep setting that same amount to the side for future unexpected expenses.

[ajarngreg]

43 minutes ago, Deserted said:

Ajarngreg Read it more carefully, I did not walk away from the first accident as no action was taken as none was needed and the point of the post is to gain opinions other than my own, so yes I do think about the situation, in fact I don't stop. And yes of course I value my own life. Read the thread more carefully. 

It seems that you should read my post more careful. I wrote that you left the hospital after your first accident. Did you pay anything at the first hospital, or did you "just walk out?" 

 

   

[teddog]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

At a rough guess I'd say they acted beyone their remit.  I think only one of the mods could likely comment. 

Id say so too.  Had a couple of run-ins with these damned private hospitals years ago...pneumonia,ICU  nobody came all night,doctor in morning,told them this is insane Im checking out, half full oxygen bottles changed mad rush for more medications,even more of whatever to bump that bill up,yes was a bill,about70,000,   Demanded to see director of hospital,told him Im not paying for this crap and call the police.  He asked how much would I like to pay,a third I replied  OK he said

    Pharmacy ,with guy in charge would have been more than sufficient

  Another time,skin cancer, now I knew the doctor was lying  told him so   ,behind the ear stuff, on further test  no cancer

  Hope all you filled up to the brim medical insurance types,paying for "peace of mind"  hefty sum types never get to use it,you can look back at a waste of money,but then maybe not,..do govt. hospitals do insurance?

[simon43]

I read your original post.  You had an accident on your bicycle and were left unconscious, (Were you wearing a bike helmet?).  You were taken to a hospital, but when you regained consciousness, you walked out without paying the bill.  (Regardless that the ambulance were staffed by volunteers, there would have been a cost involved, including that of the doctors who initially treated you).

 

Then a similar event happened (were you wearing a bike helmet?).  This time, you were taken to a private hospital and so the costs involved were higher than that for the government hospital.  Again, you walked out without paying.

 

Now you want to defraud Bupa by trying to get the doctors to change the date of your new medical insurance.

 

By your own comments, you do not have the money to pay the hospital bills, even though in both cases they acted to help you in accidents which could have killed you.  (As a lay person, you cannot claim that the injury were of a minor nature - if you are knocked unconscious, then it is possibly a life-threatening injury).

 

I'm not going to pass judgement on you, but I suggest you stop cycling for a start.  

[lopburi3]

There are no hospitals that I can see in Din Daeng and you do not say where your accident was so suspect most of those six hospitals were facilities on Rama 9 so getting to Bumrungrand would not have been much further and they would be sure to have needed specialists available for head issues.   So your medical opinion is you should lie dying with no effort made to help you until you are able to tell them exactly what you want done?  

 

I suspect you could (and should) arrange some form of payment.  Expect hospitals and doctors can provide discounts with reasonable discussion.

[Sheryl]

You should negotiate with the hospital to reduce the bill if possible, and then pay. If necessary, in installments.

 

In terms of negotiation -- the head CT was very likely medically necessary to rule out an intracerebral bleed which, had it been present, could have killed you or left you with permanent brain damage. You do not have any reasonable ground to object to it. In fact, you should be grateful they did it.

 

I have never heard of a neck CT.

 

And cannot understand why a chest CT would have been indicated (though a Chest Xray might have been).

 

On the other hand the total charge you report is less than would be expected if you had really undergone 3 CTs in addition to ER care. Is it possible you are confusing xrays with scans?

 

Anyhow - you can at least question the necessity of the chest scan and "neck scan" (whatever that was).  The head CT, you should pay for along with the ER care.

 

From Din Dang,  quickest hospital to get to would usually be Bumrungrad - straight shot on the expressway. As you were unconscious -- and possibly seizing - the emergency staff were quite correct in opting for the quickest place.

 

You seem to take head injuries leading to loss of consciousness rather lightly. They are not something to shrug off just because in 2 cases you were unusually lucky. They  next one could  be your last.

 

As for "back dating" the accident that would be insurance fraud. Do not even think of it (and certainly do not expect the hospital to aid and abet with it).

 

[cunningstunt]

Lots of guys in the West have "do not revive ' tattooed on their chest, some have long term illness or just sick of living.

You could get that done in thai and roll the dice on whether you wake up or not

 

Or

 

Tattoo do not treat at bumingrad , that would work with all uninsured in bangkok

 

An elderly friend fainted outside villa market was taken straight to the Bumrungrad where he got double pneumonia.

 

2 weeks 1.2m baht which he paid

They never found out why he fainted