Do you think Trump will be impeached or forced to resign?

[Becker]

http://www.gfk.com/insights/press-release/germany-reclaims-top-nation-brand-ranking-with-usa-dropping-to-sixth-place/

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, Andaman Al said:

Mueller does not just intend to impeach 45

That's correct because he can't. Impeachment is a political process performed by Congress to remove elected officials from office, even the POTUS.

 

Mueller is engaged to discern civil criminal federal violations such as obstruction of justice, witness tampering, conspiracy to defraud the US government, bribery, money laundering, income evasion, lying under oath (including written responses), etc. Such violations or convictions may also be used by Congress to justify an impeachment process. Mueller is also working with state attorney generals who separately may bring criminal charges against Trump and/or his "associates." Defendants in state charges cannot be pardoned by US Presidential Order.

[Meljames]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

but I question your assertion that he's all that skilled. It's well known he didn't want to run for Governor of Indiana again because he was expected to lose. He's got the charisma of a grapefruit. I don't think he's in step with the country,

 

I agree he's not a leader and I doubt he'll have the popularity to carry enough votes to get a nomination for 2020. He has enough knowledge of how Washington operates to fall in line with Congress to allow for the hardcore  right to push through their agenda, unlike Trump. Trump or Pence in the  big chair issomewhat  win/win for them. Trump stirs up enough of a dust cloud to allow some terrible judges to  be placed in courts throughout the country as well as repealing many of Obama's EO's. In the long run best thing for the GOP is keeping him in the big chair while they re-tool the organization.  An impeachment is a guaranteed loss in 2020.

 

The best hope is for the  DNC to come together enough  to pull off a major victory next year. It's not a shoe in and the DNC isn't running very smoothly either these days. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Meljames

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Meljames said:

 

I agree he's not a leader and I doubt he'll have the popularity to carry enough votes to get a nomination for 2020. He has enough knowledge of how Washington operates to fall in line with Congress to allow for the hardcore  right to push through their agenda, unlike Trump. Trump or Pence in the  big chair issomewhat  win/win for them. Trump stirs up enough of a dust cloud to allow some terrible judges to  be placed in courts throughout the country as well as repealing many of Obama's EO's. In the long run best thing for the GOP is keeping him in the big chair while they re-tool the organization.  An impeachment is a guaranteed loss in 2020.

 

The best hope is for the  DNC to come together enough  to pull off a major victory next year. It's not a shoe in and the DNC isn't running very smoothly either these days. 

Pence won't be able to push anything if the democrats flip the house in 2018. Of course trump won't have much chance of being impeached unless that happens either. Keep an open mind. There are no clear cut outcomes at this point.

 

I wouldn't be predicting the future now. I had thought trump's exposure to the sexual assault charges was over, but now it's being looked at again, in view of his total hypocrisy regarding Moore and Franken. The political mood can and does change fast.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Jingthing

[CaptHaddock]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

That's correct because he can't. Impeachment is a political process performed by Congress to remove elected officials from office, even the POTUS.

 

Mueller is engaged to discern civil criminal federal violations such as obstruction of justice, witness tampering, conspiracy to defraud the US government, bribery, money laundering, income evasion, lying under oath (including written responses), etc. Such violations or convictions may also be used by Congress to justify an impeachment process. Mueller is also working with state attorney generals who separately may bring criminal charges against Trump and/or his "associates." Defendants in state charges cannot be pardoned by US Presidential Order.

Only the House of Representatives can vote articles of impeachment, not a special prosecutor.  However, if Mueller finds evidence of crimes by Trump that appear to meet the criteria for impeachment in the Constitution, then he can send his report to the House recommending impeachment.  There is a difference of opinion as to whether a sitting president can be criminally indicted.  In the Watergate time, Leon Jaworski, the special prosecutor, did not indict Nixon, but named him as an "unindicted conspirator."   While it's true that impeachment by the House and trial by the Senate is fundamentally a political process, not a judicial one, article of impeachment will necessarily accuse the President of crimes according to the Constitution, which are not necessarily statutory crimes.  So, the process is not purely a political one.

 

Mueller, like any prosecutor, is only concerned with criminal prosecution and cannot bring a civil suit.

[CaptHaddock]

14 hours ago, EvenSteven said:

Mueller has uncovered material that links the Trump crime syndicate to laundering dirty Russian money through their property holdings in Panama.  Mauricio Ceballos, a former prosecutor in Panama who investigated Trump’s business associates for financial crimes, called the Trump Ocean Club “a vehicle for money laundering.”

 

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/trump-ocean-club-connected-drug-cartels-and-russian-mafia-panama-city

 

 

What's particularly entertaining about the corrupt activities of the Trump crime family in Panama is that it bled over to Mar-a-Lago which served as a money-laundering facility for the Russian kleptocracy.  And the sweet spot there is that Mar-a-Lago has been run by Ivanka Trump, whom I look forward to seeing in prison orange along with her career criminal husband.

[Opl]

Why Trump lies

Lies are the way authoritarians exercise power. While in office, Trump has lied 1,628 times

"Trump tells lies as a way to exercise power. He used lies to accumulate wealth as a businessman. He used lies to accumulate votes as a candidate. He used lies to accumulate power as a president. Now he’s using lies to keep himself from being removed from office. "

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/18/why-trump-lies/

[Kim1950]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:34 AM, mrdome said:

Not off topic as impeachment is about his removal as president of the US.

 

I owe you an answer re. calling his presidency "fake". "Fake" as in "fake news", as in untrue and not trustworthy. Here it is:

 

 

He was never qualified for the job to begin with plus he isn't even trying to do the job right.

He came in knowing diddly squat and then refused to be educated.

He tweets policy (with a chance of tweeting us all into a nuclear war with N. Korea).

He contradicts his own ministers, creating embarrassing situations.

He lies all the time and flip flops on issues (latest big one: China).

He's mentally unfit for the job, acts on impulse and is a security risk due to his weaknesses of needing to be praised to the point where other countries now influence his actions.

 

... I could go on but it's enough for now.

"The Legal requirements for presidential candidates have remained the same since the year Washington accepted the presidency. As directed by the Constitution, a presidential candidate must be a natural born citizen of the United States, a resident for 14 years, and 35 years of age or older." That's it.

 

The rest of your listed personally political tirade, disagreement with Trump's policies or dislike of Trump are meaningless for him being qualified for President. Once elected, there's no litmus test for popularity.  There some other ways to oust him, however,  none of your points would matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skywalker69]

 

 

[CaptHaddock]

5 hours ago, Opl said:

Why Trump lies

Lies are the way authoritarians exercise power. While in office, Trump has lied 1,628 times

"Trump tells lies as a way to exercise power. He used lies to accumulate wealth as a businessman. He used lies to accumulate votes as a candidate. He used lies to accumulate power as a president. Now he’s using lies to keep himself from being removed from office. "

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/18/why-trump-lies/

All true, but this piece misses the big Trump innovation in lying.  A lot of politicians lie of course, but they tell ordinary lies, the purpose of which is merely to deceive.  Trump tells plenty of ordinary lies, but he also tells a kind of lie new in American politics, the lie that is too obvious to be believed.  So, when he claims that he won the popular vote or that attendance at his innauguration exceeded Obama's even when the side-by-side photos show the opposite, he knows that no one will believe him.  So, why tell a lie if no one believes it?  Because to Trump the truth does matter in the least.  He shows that he is more powerful than the truth, that even when his lie is exposed as a lie he just keeps on telling it and no one can make him stop.  You don't have to be powerful to tell the truth, but it takes a powerful man to keep on lying when everyone knows it's a lie.

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, CaptHaddock said:

Because to Trump the truth does matter in the least. 

"... cognitive dissonance isn’t an equal opportunity phenomenon. Contrary to James Madison, we are not likely to defend all of our own opinions in the face of the facts. We are only likely to insist on our opinions when they involve our own feelings of self-worth."

http://www.newsweek.com/why-do-trump-supporters-ignore-his-lies-and-broken-promises-606171

For an ardent Trump supporter to deny his lies is no less than to deny their own worth.

[craigt3365]

2 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

All true, but this piece misses the big Trump innovation in lying.  A lot of politicians lie of course, but they tell ordinary lies, the purpose of which is merely to deceive.  Trump tells plenty of ordinary lies, but he also tells a kind of lie new in American politics, the lie that is too obvious to be believed.  So, when he claims that he won the popular vote or that attendance at his innauguration exceeded Obama's even when the side-by-side photos show the opposite, he knows that no one will believe him.  So, why tell a lie if no one believes it?  Because to Trump the truth does matter in the least.  He shows that he is more powerful than the truth, that even when his lie is exposed as a lie he just keeps on telling it and no one can make him stop.  You don't have to be powerful to tell the truth, but it takes a powerful man to keep on lying when everyone knows it's a lie.

I think also there's been a big change in those gravitating to the far right.  The radical right.  They buy into the lies and in a way, support and believe in them.  Sad times for the US.

[Thakkar]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

"... cognitive dissonance isn’t an equal opportunity phenomenon. Contrary to James Madison, we are not likely to defend all of our own opinions in the face of the facts. We are only likely to insist on our opinions when they involve our own feelings of self-worth."

http://www.newsweek.com/why-do-trump-supporters-ignore-his-lies-and-broken-promises-606171

For an ardent Trump supporter to deny his lies is no less than to deny their own worth.

In relation to this, below is a link to a story of the origins of the ludicrous Pizzagate story and an absolutely fascinating deconstruction of how it was spread.

 

The fact that millions of people are trafficking in these lies is a huge problem and I haven't got the faintest idea about how to fix it. People believe what they want to believe and there are some actors in this world who are ready to give them what they want in order to advance their own agenda. Indeed, a whole population has been primed by talk radio and right wing media to accept a certain kind of propaganda with no questions asked. We are all susceptible to confirmation bias but this is on a level that approaches brainwashing.It's very, very disturbing.

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/pizzagate-anatomy-of-a-fake-news-scandal-w511904

[Jingthing]

I think this quote below sheds some light on the political crisis now in the USA. I think most politically aware Americans would agree, there really is a sort of (currently) non-bloody civil war going on now. But it also points out the impossibility of DEBATE between the two sides. I'm posting this because trump is correctly held responsible for bringing us to this critically dark place (though he didn't start it) and also to inform non-Americans that might think, oh, this is just another partisan argument in the USA. Nothing to see here. Nope, there is plenty to see here. This is a historic division and nobody knows where this is leading the USA and the world at this stage of the FOG of this civil war. trump's culpability in greatly aggravating these already existing deep divisions is not an impeachable offence. The founders didn't think of that. 

 

Carl Bernstein (not Bernie Bernstein, Washington Post, of Watergate fame) on the t.v. show Real Time with Bill Maher

 

Quote

CARL BERNSTEIN:

Let me ask a question here.
We're really in the midst of a COLD CIVIL WAR in terms of our culture and perhaps trump has brought it to the point of NEAR IGNITION. But is it possible that we could have a debate in which right and left, republicans and democrats, is it possible to have a FACTS BASED debate? 

BILL MAHER: -- No. Next question.

CARL BERNSTEIN: I AGREE. We cannot have a facts based debate in this culture.

 

To add, I realize some people will label likening the current political divide in the USA to a CIVIL WAR is pure hyperbole. Seriously, does anyone associate Carl Bernstein, one of the greatest journalists in history, as someone that uses hyperbole? 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Jingthing

[pornprong]

Worst thing that could possibly happen is for Trump to be forced out. 

Let the voters do their job in 2020 - anything else only serves to make Trump a martyr.

[Jingthing]

Worst thing that could possibly happen is for Trump to be forced out. 
Let the voters do their job in 2020 - anything else only serves to make Trump a martyr.

That conclusion is premature. Let the investigations play out. If really serious dirt is uncovered even Republicans will start clamoring for his removal. I do agree if he could somehow be removed just for being the atrocious lying super troll that he is then he would become a martyr.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Skywalker69]

Trump Family Business Worth A Fraction Of What President Has Touted

 

 

Donald Trump has an inflated view of his assets. The president’s family business is worth about one-tenth of the value he has claimed, according to an analysis of the latest figures he has filed with the federal government.

 

Some of the discrepancy is due to a downturn in business, but the rest is credited to an overheated imagination, according to Crain’s New York Business reporter Aaron Elstein, who examined the numbers.

Related SearchesTrump FamilyLatest News From President TrumpDonald Trump FamilyTrump Net Worth 2017

 

Elstein told NPR he feels a bit like he was played.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-family-business-worth-fraction-130141786.html

[lannarebirth]

10 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I think this quote below sheds some light on the political crisis now in the USA. I think most politically aware Americans would agree, there really is a sort of (currently) non-bloody civil war going on now. But it also points out the impossibility of DEBATE between the two sides. I'm posting this because trump is correctly held responsible for bringing us to this critically dark place (though he didn't start it) and also to inform non-Americans that might think, oh, this is just another partisan argument in the USA. Nothing to see here. Nope, there is plenty to see here. This is a historic division and nobody knows where this is leading the USA and the world at this stage of the FOG of this civil war. trump's culpability in greatly aggravating these already existing deep divisions is not an impeachable offence. The founders didn't think of that. 

 

Carl Bernstein (not Bernie Bernstein, Washington Post, of Watergate fame) on the t.v. show Real Time with Bill Maher

 

To add, I realize some people will label likening the current political divide in the USA to a CIVIL WAR is pure hyperbole. Seriously, does anyone associate Carl Bernstein, one of the greatest journalists in history, as someone that uses hyperbole? 

 

I wouldn't call it a Civil War. I'd liken it more to a religious war with each side buying into a certain dogma. They buy into their respective dogmas in toto and apply no critical thinking or even observation to question or debunk their respective doctrines as a lot of it is a "faith based" belief system. In the absence of God and Satan we have concocted our own mortal deities, who tell us our, brother/enemy who may be either a believer or a heretic and therefore good or evil is who would love or hate. It's a Holy War, not a Civil War. It's also a distraction meant to enable the greatest heist of global treasuries in history but that likewise is OT.

[bendejo]

21 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

All true, but this piece misses the big Trump innovation in lying. 

 

DT's innovation is called gaslighting, not a new term.  Not necessarily done on a contentious level: e.g. during one of the debates with HRC he kept sniffling.  When asked about it he said there was "no sniffling."  While not an earth-shaking matter, that kind of lie shows a true contempt for the person you're speaking to.  And then comes the other stuff like "I never mocked a handicapped person," "I never said _______" when these things are easily refuted by video recordings.

 

I never watched any of his TV shows, the first I caught of him speaking was a clip in an airplane hangar during the Obama years.  He had been saying he has investigators in Hawaii checking Obama's past, and they were coming up with some "amazing stuff."  In the hangar appearance a reporter asked about this, he dodged the question, and when another reporter asked the same thing he said "I already answered that."  Talk about brass!

 

 

[CaptHaddock]

2 hours ago, bendejo said:

 

DT's innovation is called gaslighting, not a new term.  Not necessarily done on a contentious level: e.g. during one of the debates with HRC he kept sniffling.  When asked about it he said there was "no sniffling."  While not an earth-shaking matter, that kind of lie shows a true contempt for the person you're speaking to.  And then comes the other stuff like "I never mocked a handicapped person," "I never said _______" when these things are easily refuted by video recordings.

 

I never watched any of his TV shows, the first I caught of him speaking was a clip in an airplane hangar during the Obama years.  He had been saying he has investigators in Hawaii checking Obama's past, and they were coming up with some "amazing stuff."  In the hangar appearance a reporter asked about this, he dodged the question, and when another reporter asked the same thing he said "I already answered that."  Talk about brass!

 

 

Gaslighting is a little different.  It's a kind of manipulation or deception that is intended to get you to doubt your own perception.  The term comes from the movie, "Gaslight," in which secret Nazi Claude Rains is trying to drive his wife, Ingrid Bergman, mad, by such tricks as pretending to continue to read when the lights have gone out to cause poor Ingrid to think she must be losing her mind.

 

I don't read DT's lies as intended to get Americans to doubt their own perceptions as though they might become unsure as to whether Obama's inauguration crowd is really larger than Trump's even though the pictures clearly show it was.

 

Trump's bald, demonstrably false lies are intended to show that he is more powerful than the truth.  This is the kind of lie that is the hallmark of third-world dictators.  Power is the only thing that matters.  Just like Putin.

[Credo]

He certainly surrounds himself with some interesting people.   Here's another one who is going down:

 

Trump Campaign Coordinator And 'Family Values' Republican Pleads Guilty To Child Sex Trafficking, Faces Life In Prison

Carlos Ballesteros

,

Newsweek•November 20, 2017

 

 

Ralph Shortey, former Oklahoma state senator and a county campaign coordinator for President Donald Trump’s campaign last year, will plead guilty to a child sex trafficking offense for soliciting sex from a 17-year-old boy in March.

In exchange for his guilty plea, government prosecutors have agreed to drop three counts of child pornography against him.  Shortey is scheduled to plead guilty on November 30, two weeks before his trial was set to commence on December 5.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaign-coordinator-apos-family-222545006.html

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, Credo said:

He certainly surrounds himself with some interesting people.   Here's another one who is going down:

 

Trump Campaign Coordinator And 'Family Values' Republican Pleads Guilty To Child Sex Trafficking, Faces Life In Prison

Carlos Ballesteros

,

Newsweek•November 20, 2017

 

 

Ralph Shortey, former Oklahoma state senator and a county campaign coordinator for President Donald Trump’s campaign last year, will plead guilty to a child sex trafficking offense for soliciting sex from a 17-year-old boy in March.

In exchange for his guilty plea, government prosecutors have agreed to drop three counts of child pornography against him.  Shortey is scheduled to plead guilty on November 30, two weeks before his trial was set to commence on December 5.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaign-coordinator-apos-family-222545006.html

Normally, something like this should not be counted against Trump. Except that Trump has often emphatically bragged about always hiring the best people.

[craigt3365]

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/mueller-interviews-white-house-officials/index.html

Quote

Mueller interviews with senior White House officials coming up

 

It's starting to get interesting.  Hard to lie in front of a panel like this.

 

 

[Kim1950]

19 hours ago, Skywalker69 said:

Trump Family Business Worth A Fraction Of What President Has Touted

 

 

Donald Trump has an inflated view of his assets. The president’s family business is worth about one-tenth of the value he has claimed.

So what. He wasn't elected on his balance sheet nor was his platform about his assets. You missed the the message. The US was weary of the Obama narrative. How's Merkel doing? 

[Thakkar]

8 minutes ago, Kim1950 said:

19 hours ago, Skywalker69 said:

Trump Family Business Worth A Fraction Of What President Has Touted

 

 

Donald Trump has an inflated view of his assets. The president’s family business is worth about one-tenth of the value he has claimed.

So what. He wasn't elected on his balance sheet nor was his platform about his assets. You missed the the message. The US was weary of the Obama narrative. How's Merkel doing? 

 

Yeah, Skywalker. Trump was elected on a hateful message of misogyny, racism, assholery, bluster and buffoonery. As long as he keeps all that up, he’s good with his base.

[Jingthing]

So what. He wasn't elected on his balance sheet nor was his platform about his assets. You missed the the message. The US was weary of the Obama narrative. How's Merkel doing? 

It's another sign of his low morals and character. Lies about everything including his wealth. If you're saying that people voted for him knowing he was a notorious liar, con man, and sexual abuser I would have to agree.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Kim1950]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's another sign of his low morals and character. Lies about everything including his wealth. If you're saying that people voted for him knowing he was a notorious liar, con man, and sexual abuser I would have to agree.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

How many times have I have need to state that facts in politics don't matter. You are getting tiring in your stuck and inability to progress with political reality. Trump's past history is an allusion. So far, the US economy is great, that's huge, for everyday folk, maybe not for others on slack time on TV. Go catch, what's happening with Merkel. She's got a immigrant problem. So Trump in your wildest dreams gets impeached, whose up Franken. The democrats have nobody in the ballpen. And nobody cares. The whole thing will move democrats to moderates. 

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, Kim1950 said:

How many times have I have need to state that facts in politics don't matter. You are getting tiring in your stuck and inability to progress with political reality. Trump's past history is an allusion. So far, the US economy is great, that's huge, for everyday folk, maybe not for others on slack time on TV. Go catch, what's happening with Merkel. She's got a immigrant problem. So Trump in your wildest dreams gets impeached, whose up Franken. The democrats have nobody in the ballpen. And nobody cares. The whole thing will move democrats to moderates. 

If I ever get as dark and cynical as you, somebody please shoot me. You're assuming the trump darkness is permanent. It could be but more likely it's a dark phase like with Hitler and Joseph McCarthy. Of course the darkness of trumpism will likely get even darker still. But some feel the recent 2017 election just might be the beginning of the beginning of the end of it. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Jingthing

[Kim1950]

1 hour ago, Thakkar said:

 

Yeah, Skywalker. Trump was elected on a hateful message of misogyny, racism, assholery, bluster and buffoonery. As long as he keeps all that up, he’s good with his base.

Right on, the Democratic deep pockets guy was Weinstein, now you got another Dem taking head count on how many beautiful babes he screwed in his life. What's lacking in your views, so far, Trump has done not much, as you assume, no nuclear war, no indiscriminate rounding up of immigrants, no blatant discrimination of minorities,  no favoritism of Russia. Just a freak'en great economy, where else. People all over the world with smart money have cast their vote. And immigrants want to come here. If I can make it here, I can make it anywhere. Though I will stay here for the kids.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Kim1950 said:

Right on, the Democratic deep pockets guy was Weinstein, now you got another Dem taking head count on how many beautiful babes he screwed in his life. What's lacking in your views, so far, Trump has done not much, as you assume, no nuclear war, no indiscriminate rounding up of immigrants, no blatant discrimination of minorities,  no favoritism of Russia. Just a freak'en great economy, where else. People all over the world with smart money have cast their vote. And immigrants want to come here. If I can make it here, I can make it anywhere. Though I will stay here for the kids.

 

Full on KOOL AID. 

Quote

Drinking the Orange Kool-Aid

 

https://www.gq.com/story/the-cult-of-trump