Red-faced over Blackface: Vogue Thailand fails with model channeling Grace Jones in blackface

[berybert]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

So you can't back it up. 

 

Thought so. 

 

As for the rest of your post...sigh. 

 

As I  said no one has proved me wrong. 

You seem to be the voice of the black race in this thread, surely you can take the time to prove me wrong.

[Happy Grumpy]

5 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Using 'blackface' is using a tradition rooted in hate.

Even this is wrong.

 

It was a theatrical tradition based on light-hearted theater, where many things were exaggerated.

 

 

Are you okay? 

[Bluespunk]

11 minutes ago, berybert said:

As I  said no one has proved me wrong. 

You seem to be the voice of the black race in this thread, surely you can take the time to prove me wrong.

No.

 

I'd like to see you back up your statement. 

 

You seemed very confident about. 

 

Now prove it. 

[berybert]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

No.

 

I'd like to see you back up your statement. 

 

You seemed very confident about. 

 

Now prove it. 

Nope up to you to prove me wrong. That's how Thai justice works.

[Bluespunk]

14 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Even this is wrong.

 

It was a theatrical tradition based on light-hearted theater, where many things were exaggerated.

 

 

Are you okay? 

No it is a tradition rooted in hate, prejudice, bigotry and racism. 

 

As to your inquiry towards my health...not that it's any of your business but I'm fine. 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Bluespunk

[Bluespunk]

Just now, berybert said:

Nope up to you to prove me wrong. That's how Thai justice works.

As I thought. 

 

You can't. 

[berybert]

1 minute ago, Bluespunk said:

As I thought. 

 

You can't. 

Can you ? And are you aware your user name is offensive to Smurfs ?

[sanemax]

4 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

The answers I gave make clear my views on whitening up.

 

I don't pick and choose which to condemn and which to condone.

 

My views are consistent.

 

I don't do 'yeah but...'

So what is your view on this ?

Would it had been racist if the Thai Woman had whitened up to look like GJ when GJ whitened up to look like  a White woman ?

A yes or a no would be quicker to write , rather than a "I already replied to that" usual swerve

 

 

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, berybert said:

Can you ? And are you aware your user name is offensive to Smurfs ?

Enough of the deflection strategies. 

 

Back up your words. 

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

So what is your view on this ?

Would it had been racist if the Thai Woman had whitened up to look like GJ when GJ whitened up to look like  a White woman ?

A yes or a no would be quicker to write , rather than a "I already replied to that" usual swerve

 

 

And yet that is what you are getting. 

 

Read the thread read if you want my view on whitening up. 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Bluespunk

[berybert]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

Enough of the deflection strategies. 

 

Back up your words. 

There has no been one black person who has got upset and had a 'go' at me on this thread, so that must tell you something.

The only person who seems to be upset is you, and you aint black.

So what more do you want ?

 

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, berybert said:

There has no been one black person who has got upset and had a 'go' at me on this thread, so that must tell you something.

The only person who seems to be upset is you, and you aint black.

So what more do you want ?

 

I want you to back up your bold statement. 

[berybert]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

I want you to back up your bold statement. 

I have. Only one person has got upset and it isn't a black person.

Point proven.

Or do you want me to email every black person on the planet ?

[Bluespunk]

Just now, berybert said:

I have. Only one person has got upset and it isn't a black person.

Point proven.

Or do you want me to email every black person on the planet ?

I want you to prove your statement which did seem to encompass the whole world. 

 

Go on, don't back down, back up your claim. 

 

Do an an intensive survey and get back to us with results. 

[sanemax]

9 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

And yet that is what you are getting. 

 

Read the thread read if you want my view on whitening up. 

Sorry, was that a yes or a no ?

 

[Bluespunk]

Just now, sanemax said:

Sorry, was that a yes or a no ?

 

Read the post. 

 

It's fairly clear. 

[berybert]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

I want you to prove your statement which did seem to encompass the whole world. 

 

Go on, don't back down, back up your claim. 

 

Do an an intensive survey and get back to us with results. 

Ok I'll get back to you when its complete. But as of now after 12 pages of the thread there are about 3 or 4 non blacks feeling very sorry for people they are not. And no blacks feeling sorry for themselves.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, berybert said:

Ok I'll get back to you when its complete. But as of now after 12 pages of the thread there are about 3 or 4 non blacks feeling very sorry for people they are not. And no blacks feeling sorry for themselves.

 I await the results with baited breath. 

 

(Sarcasm alert). 

[jak2002003]

Bluespunk.....What if you were going to a fancy dress party? Why wouldn't you darken your face if you are dressing as a black person?... you would look rather daft as a black person with a white face, lol.

Black, white, purple, what does it matter?  If  you would say that white people should not be allowed to dress as black people.. why?  Surely that is a very raciest thing to say. 

 

You seem to be the one with the hang ups about things being raciest... and you are not even black yourself!  These days the younger generation does not associate dressing as a black person as an insult to raciest connections to the 'black face' of the distant past anyway. 

 

It's people like you that are making this issue, and keeping the raciest aspect alive... poking at a wound to stop it healing.

 

 

 

 

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, jak2002003 said:

Bluespunk.....What if you were going to a fancy dress party? Why wouldn't you darken your face if you are dressing as a black person?... you would look rather daft as a black person with a white face, lol.

Black, white, purple, what does it matter?  If  you would say that white people should not be allowed to dress as black people.. why?  Surely that is a very raciest thing to say. 

 

You seem to be the one with the hang ups about things being raciest... and you are not even black yourself!  These days the younger generation does not associate dressing as a black person as an insult to raciest connections to the 'black face' of the distant past anyway. 

 

It's people like you that are making this issue, and keeping the raciest aspect alive... poking at a wound to stop it healing.

 

 

 

 

I would never darken my face. 

 

"Blackface" is something I would never have anything to do with. 

 

As for your psuedo analysis of myself and laughable claims about the current younger generstion's attitude to racist traditions... don't give up the day job. 

 

Likewise as to your inability to comprehend what racism is.

 

Also dressing as someone is not the same as "blackface". 

 

And as for your assertion that it's people like like me who refuse to forget traditions rooted in hate, prejudice and bigotry 

 

Fine by me. Some things should never be forgotten. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Bluespunk

[sanemax]

11 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Read the thread read if you want my view on whitening up.

As I understand it, you feel that its quite acceptable for people to '"whiten up" and its unacceptable to "blacken up " and in relation to this story , it would be acceptable for the Asian Woman to whiten up in order for her to resemble Grace Jones, when She (GJ) herself choose to whiten up , but its unacceptable for the Asian woman to darken herself in order to resemble GJ's true natural colour .

    There must be some hypocrisy and double standards in there somewhere, but . TBH, I really cannot get my head around it

[Bluespunk]

11 minutes ago, sanemax said:

As I understand it, you feel that its quite acceptable for people to '"whiten up" and its unacceptable to "blacken up " and in relation to this story , it would be acceptable for the Asian Woman to whiten up in order for her to resemble Grace Jones, when She (GJ) herself choose to whiten up , but its unacceptable for the Asian woman to darken herself in order to resemble GJ's true natural colour .

    There must be some hypocrisy and double standards in there somewhere, but . TBH, I really cannot get my head around it

Clearly

 

A) you have not read the thread

 

or, and I think this is the case, are too lazy to do so

 

C) or have serious comprehension issues. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Bluespunk

[sanemax]

20 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Clearly

 

A) you have not read the thread

 

or, and I think this is the case, are too lazy to do so

 

C) or have serious comprehension issues. 

I have read the thread and that is my conclusion of your opinion .

As you will not answer me directly , I am left to make my own conclusion

You are just being evasive .

Avoiding the issue .

You claim to have answered the question, but you will not state which post that answer is in .

You will not answer the question, just give the old "Read the thread" "You dont understand" swerve .

I have asked the same question three times now and on each occasion you have failed to answer the question .

I will not ask the same question again, because its quite clear that once again you will not answer .

Spare me the reply of "Read the thread" 

Because I have read the thread .

Anyway , going around in circles , no point in that

[Bluespunk]

6 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I have read the thread and that is my conclusion of your opinion .

As you will not answer me directly , I am left to make my own conclusion

You are just being evasive .

Avoiding the issue .

You claim to have answered the question, but you will not state which post that answer is in .

You will not answer the question, just give the old "Read the thread" "You dont understand" swerve .

I have asked the same question three times now and on each occasion you have failed to answer the question .

I will not ask the same question again, because its quite clear that once again you will not answer .

Spare me the reply of "Read the thread" 

Because I have read the thread .

Anyway , going around in circles , no point in that

You want to know my view, then...

 

Well you know what to do. 

[Captain Jack]

"Blacking-up" is totally unacceptable in almost all developed cultures. In Europe it used to be big in the 70's, then, along with chain smoking, wife beating and other forms of unbridled racism it became totally unacceptable.

 

Thailand never experienced such a reform.  In fact "Blacking-up" is still common place here. It's normally done to make fun of the working class in northern areas where people traditionally work outdoors and end up with dark skin.  This doesn't make it any less offensive.  The image portrayed is still of an uneducated, unintelligent clown-like figure.

 

The concept of racism is totally alien to such people. They are almost completely ignorant of the world outside Thailand, and since there are very few ethnic variations within the kingdom they have no concept of how to react to people of different racial origins.

 

We see this same ignorance every day in how Thailand reacts to the now huge numbers of Caucasians it sees.  "Farang" are not seen as equals, nor in fact actually as people.  In the Thai language there are clear rules on how to refer to people politely (including foreigners) and the "F-word" doesn't come anywhere close.  Nor do the sentence structures used in conjunction with it convey any kind of respect for the subject.  Sentence structure is hugely important in Thai language and these structures are more closely aligned with inanimate objects, like rocks, showing arguably less respect than one might for a dog, than for a human being.

 

I describe this condition as "passive racism". "Passive" because they don't do it on purpose, they simply don't know any better. It's not done to intentionally be rude, but ignorance has never been an acceptable excuse for anything.

 

The problem here in Thailand is further compounded by the often greater ignorance of foreigners themselves.  It makes me cringe every time I hear a white person refer to themselves as "farang".  Look at it this way, it's a Thai (slang) word, unless you actually speak Thai (and therefore understand how derisory it is) then don't use it.  Thai people want to speak to you in English, so speak to them in ENGLISH. Don't try to imitate their version of English or try to use their slang words.  Don't dumb yourself down by dropping pre modifiers and conjunctions.  Don't use non-nonsensical 'English' terms you might hear them use ("my-friend-me" doesn't mean anything).  Speak to them clearly, and confidently, don't rush you words and don't be afraid to politely correct their errors.

 

At the same time learn Thai. Unless you are here on holiday then you have an obligation to.  Don't kid yourself that "everyone here speaks English" because they don't, they really don't, and if you believe they do then you're deluding yourself.  Learn Thai.  If they lived in your country you would expect them to learn your language.  Learn Thai!  If we are to ever expect racism in Thailand to ever abate at all and for people of different colours and creeds to be treated as equals then we all need to make the effort to integrate. Learn Thai!!

 

We must expose ourselves to each-others cultures if we are ever to expect these fundamental issues of racism to ever change.  Until then we'll continue to see national icons blacking-up in beauty magazines and Thai people will continue to be utterly oblivious of how wrong it is.

 

Learn Thai.

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, Captain Jack said:

The problem here in Thailand is further compounded by the often greater ignorance of foreigners themselves.  It makes me cringe every time I hear a white person refer to themselves as "farang".  Look at it this way, it's a Thai (slang) word, unless you actually speak Thai (and therefore understand how derisory it is) then don't use it.  

You are going way off topic 

[jak2002003]

6 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

 

As for your psuedo analysis of myself and laughable claims about the current younger generstion's attitude to racist traditions... don't give up the day job. 

 

Likewise as to your inability to comprehend what racism is.

 

Fine by me. Some things should never be forgotten. 

What is it with all your aggression... calling my opinions laughable and telling me I can not comprehend what racism is. Maybe it's you who are looking for racism where there is none... and making a point to bring out bad feelings between people of different colours.....

 

I am not saying to forget bad things that happened in the past... but we have got to learn by them and move one with life.  Otherwise nothing will change.. and all the problems will still be there forever.

 

Go out and ask you black friends if its such a big deal to them if you dressed up a black celebrity and used make up to darken your face....

 

If you can't understand the difference between dressing up innocently and the 'black face' racism of the past.. with the white gloves, googly eyes and stupid 'oh mamma' act, then there is something lacking in your comprehension of what racism is... not mine.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by jak2002003

[Bluespunk]

31 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

What is it with all your aggression... calling my opinions laughable and telling me I can not comprehend what racism is. Maybe it's you who are looking for racism where there is none... and making a point to bring out bad feelings between people of different colours.....

 

I am not saying to forget bad things that happened in the past... but we have got to learn by them and move one with life.  Otherwise nothing will change.. and all the problems will still be there forever.

 

Go out and ask you black friends if its such a big deal to them if you dressed up a black celebrity and used make up to darken your face....

 

If you can't understand the difference between dressing up innocently and the 'black face' racism of the past.. with the white gloves, googly eyes and stupid 'oh mamma' act, then there is something lacking in your comprehension of what racism is... not mine.

 

 

 

 

I only told you what your post showed. You analysis someone, then be prepared for feedback. 

 

"Blackface" because of it's roots can never be revived. There is nothing innocent about it's  use. 

 

The use "blackface" pays homage, intentionally or not, to its roots of racist hatred. 

 

Anyone unable to see that has no understanding of racism.

 

There is no way "blackface" use can be considered innocent. The prejudice that lies behind ensures that. 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Bluespunk

[Captain Jack]

6 hours ago, sanemax said:

You are going way off topic 

The topic is racism.

[nausea]

The article talks about "blackface" and incidentally refers to the word "colored", but Thailand has no history of racist "blackface" minstrel shows or "colored" segregation. These things are outrageous to Americans for a reason, or at least they "get" the reason why other Americans find them outrageous, but Thais lack the cultural context. And they're not the only one's who don't quite get the US perspective; a couple of UK examples - David Cameron made headlines posing with blackfaced Morris dancers and Benedict Cumberbatch had to apologise for calling black actors coloured. If these two could be perceived as making inadvertent racist blunders, you can't really criticise the Thais.