Entry Clearance Manager Contact Info

[AmazingTryland]

Hi,

 

Anyone know the contact info for the  Entry Clearance Manger in Bangkok ?

Visit Visa to UK has been refused this time.

 

No way to ask for Manager to check the work of the Entry Clearance Officer as there is no right of appeal for Visit Visa refusals.

I intend to ask if Manager can look over his colleagues work . 

[theoldgit]

You'll never get the contact details of an ECM, if you did manage to get hold of them they would simply ignore your communication or refuse to take your call.

 

As you say you can't appeal the decision or even ask for an administrative review, though you could make a formal complaint though I wouldn't hold your breath on getting a satisfactory outcome.

 

https://eforms.homeoffice.gov.uk/outreach/_static/ukvi-international-complaints.html

 

I'm afraid that ECO's are pretty much protected against any flack from making wrong decisions.

 

If you'd care to share the details of the refusal, somebody may be able to offer some advice.

[Tanoshi]

You cannot appeal a refusal for a Visitor Visa.

 

The person who's application was refused will have received a 'refusal notice' detailing why it was refused.

All you can do is submit another application and provide additional proof to counter the reason for the refusal.

[Tony M]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

You cannot appeal a refusal for a Visitor Visa.

 

The person who's application was refused will have received a 'refusal notice' detailing why it was refused.

All you can do is submit another application and provide additional proof to counter the reason for the refusal.

 

That's not entirely true. You can complain about a refusal (and ask for the decision to be reviewed) if, for instance, the ECO made an error of law, or if you have good grounds for thinking that some evidence was not considered. Just complaining about a decision because you think it was wrong won't get you anywhere, I'm afraid. 

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, Tony M said:

 

That's not entirely true. You can complain about a refusal (and ask for the decision to be reviewed) if, for instance, the ECO made an error of law, or if you have good grounds for thinking that some evidence was not considered. Just complaining about a decision because you think it was wrong won't get you anywhere, I'm afraid. 

Yes, but you'd need to know the grounds for refusal first, which the OP hasn't yet shared.

[Tony M]

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Yes, but you'd need to know the grounds for refusal first, which the OP hasn't yet shared.

 

But you said "All you can do is submit another application..........'  I just pointed out that is not correct. Sorry if I have offended you in some way.

[Tanoshi]

13 minutes ago, Tony M said:

 

But you said "All you can do is submit another application..........'  I just pointed out that is not correct. Sorry if I have offended you in some way.

Not offended at all Tony. I was in agreement, the right of appeal doesn't exist for Tourist Visas, but as you correctly stated, you have the right to complain about the decision and ask for a review, but that would still depend on the grounds given in the refusal notice.

[theoldgit]

7 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

You cannot appeal a refusal for a Visitor Visa.

The OP knows that, he wrote it in his post.

[AmazingTryland]

Thanks for your replies.

 

Girlfriend works for Ministry of Education.

Our British born British citizen son lives with mother in Thailand.

Girlfriend has own home & land. 

Girlfriend been to UK twice on visit visa. No issues.

ECO officer says he doesn't believe she will go back home.

 

We said visit was for 3 weeks as we arranged it around school.

No way for the arrogant immigration officers work to be checked as no right of appeal.

 

Cheers

[bobrussell]

The devil is in the detail!

An ECO will state that he or she does not believe an applicant will return based on certain aspects of the application. This is why the full refusal letter (blocking out personal information) really needs to be posted before proper suggestions can be made! This is not just forum members being nosey!

It does sound as if there should be few or no grounds for refusal in this case but usually this means the applicant has made assumptions or the ECO has not really looked properly at the application.

If you are living in the UK and the applicant, Thailand then there may be a suspicion that the applicant may, on the balance of probability stay in the UK.

If you have provided ample evidence that there are good grounds for return then you can complain but as stated, don't expect much in the way of a response. You can complain as well as reapply but ECO's are pretty much protected by a ring of steel! Generally they don't even sign the letters in a meaningful way that identifies the ECO. 

They do make bizarre decisions at times and this may be one of them.

 

[Tanoshi]

3 hours ago, AmazingTryland said:

Girlfriend works for Ministry of Education.

Our British born British citizen son lives with mother in Thailand.

Girlfriend has own home & land. 

Girlfriend been to UK twice on visit visa. No issues.

ECO officer says he doesn't believe she will go back home.

 

We said visit was for 3 weeks as we arranged it around school.

No way for the arrogant immigration officers work to be checked as no right of appeal.

 

You've certainly stated enough reasons for your girlfriend and son to return to Thailand, but do you know if sufficient evidence of those facts were submitted.

 

Do you know if your g/f submitted a letter from her employer, a letter from the school, Chanute as proof of land and house ownership.

 

[AmazingTryland]

Just now, Tanoshi said:

You've certainly stated enough reasons for your girlfriend and son to return to Thailand, but do you know if sufficient evidence of those facts were submitted.

 

Do you know if your g/f submitted a letter from her employer, a letter from the school, Chanute as proof of land and house ownership.

 

Hi,

 

Yes, she submitted a letter from the local authority. Which is her intimidate boss.

ECO didn't even bother to contact them to confirm the content was accurate. 

 

I said in my letter of invitation that i would meet all expenses during the 3 week holiday. Recent stamped balance from UK bank included in documents.

 

ECO didn't bother emailing or calling me either.

[AmazingTryland]

Not sure whether to contact VFS Global and try go thru them, or go thru Embassy or just complain to Home Office about the ECO making mistakes with the visit visa application .

 

If we complain about the anonymous ECO who has made a mistake i doubt my GF will ever be given any visa.

 

But risk we might have to take.

 

[brewsterbudgen]

Exactly how was the refusal notice worded?

[Mattd]

I would just take it on the chin and make a new application, read the refusal notice very carefully, noting the reason(s) stated by the ECO for the refusal and provide as much evidence as possible to counteract the reason(s).

Understand and agree with the frustration that you are feeling, however, I suspect trying to complain will only result in more frustration and the end result may be the same.

[Tony M]

For me, and I stress that it is my opinion only (or mostly  my opinion) there is a lot more in this situation than first appears.  It is a visit visa application, but there is a British child involved. The child lives in Thailand with his mother, and my view is that the child, as an EU citizen has a right to family life.  The Home Office has argued on many occasions that the Article 8 rights to family life do not apply in visit visa applications, but I don’t see how the right cannot exist.  The fact that the applicant hasn’t made a settlement application is, to me, irrelevant. The ECHR doesn’t differentiate between the reasons that a person might want to enjoy “family life”.  The Home Office is aware of this, and publishes guidance that states that if an applicant or sponsor expressly states in the visit visa application that there are human rights considerations, then the ECO must consider them. If it is not stated, then the ECO doesn’t have to consider any human rights. My question to that is, why shouldn’t the ECO have to consider any possible human rights “violations” in an application ?  Such reasons for a human rights claim could be that the child is so young that he cannot be expected to travel alone, and the father in the UK is unable to travel to Thailand for whatever reason, etc, etc. The normal outcome is that the refusal notice says that the ECO has considered the human rights claim, and that he doesn’t consider Article 8 (the right to family life) to have been engaged. So, the ECO refuses the application, and states that there is no right of appeal.

 

I do not believe that the ECO has the right to decide who has the right of appeal in human rights applications. He, logically, cannot be the final arbiter on such a important claim. Therefore it surely must be the Appeal Tribunal that decides if the applicant has a right of appeal on human rights grounds, and they will make that decision if an appeal is received at the IAT.  You could, in my opinion, therefore submit an appeal. It might well be denied at the hearing as no mention was made of any human rights aspect in the application, but (again, my view only) how can it be the ECO’s decision to say whether there are any human rights aspects or not. No disrespect to ECOs, but they are not experts in European human rights law, and I don’t believe that they are the correct “level” of decision – maker for such a decision. Denying someone their human rights is a fairly important decision at any level.

 

I am aware of one visit visa refusal, in almost identical circumstances, where an appeal has been submitted, even though the ECO said that there was no right of appeal. There will be an appeal hearing next month, I believe. The appeal may well be turned down, but it might at least give some guidance on whether the ECO has the right to decide if an applicant has a right of appeal in visit visa applications where “human rights” are claimed.  Please don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe that human rights should be thrown into every application, but where there are British children involved, who are unable to be with a parent, then I have some sympathy.

 

This is from some old advice that I found :

An appeal to the Immigration and Asylum Chamber of the First-tier Tribunal can only be brought on grounds of either

·         a breach of human rights

or

·         race discrimination.

In some cases an appeal will not really be possible on these grounds and an application for judicial review will be the only means of legal challenge.

It is normally very hard to succeed in arguing a human rights immigration case and very few such cases normally succeed.

Do I even have a right of appeal?

It is no longer standard practice for visit visa refusals to be accompanied by an appeal form, and in an independent inspection in 2011 it was discovered that 30% of those refused visit visas were given in correct information about their appeal rights.

You should therefore not assume that information provided by the entry clearance post is accurate.

 

All visit visas have a right of appeal on human rights grounds or race discrimination grounds, and if an appeal is the right remedy for you then you can lodge an appeal to the tribunal irrespective of what information the Entry Clearance Officer provides.

 

What cases might raise human rights grounds?

First of all, you need to show that a human right of some sort is engaged by the visit. In immigration cases and family visits, that means that there will need to be a visit between close family members so that Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights can be argued to be engaged. This article protects the right to private and family life:

 

Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

 

A visit between two spouses or long term partners would normally be considered to engage human rights. A visit between a parent and child under the age of 18 would also normally be considered to engage human rights. A visit between a parent and non dependent child over the age of 18 might engage human rights, as might a visit between siblings and perhaps even between more extended family such as an uncle, aunt, cousin, nephew or niece.

 

So, you can appeal if you want to (and make another application while you are waiting, if you want to).  It may not succeed, but it might help others in the future. At the moment, the Home Office doesn’t even want to accept that there can be human rights considerations in visit visa applications, or rather, they don’t want applicants to know that there could be.  There is, actually, published guidance on this, but ECOs seem to like to ignore it. I have attached the guidance.

 

considering_hr_claims_from_visitors_guidance_v1_0_ext.pdf

[theoldgit]

10 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Exactly how was the refusal notice worded?

Indeed, this is something people need to see before trying to advise, at the moment we're having to make assumptions.

 

I'm not sure if the OP has seen the actual refusal notice yet, maybe he could ask his girlfriend to send him a copy so he can post it on the forum. 

[Tanoshi]

10 hours ago, AmazingTryland said:

Not sure whether to contact VFS Global and try go thru them, or go thru Embassy or just complain to Home Office about the ECO making mistakes with the visit visa application .

 

If we complain about the anonymous ECO who has made a mistake i doubt my GF will ever be given any visa.

 

But risk we might have to take.

 

Like flogging a dead horse.

 

I'd like to see a copy the refusal notice (personal info edited) as I'm sure there's more to this other than what your reporting.

[AmazingTryland]

ECO doesn't believe my GF can support herself during the holiday.

Yet I confirmed in writing I would pay for everything and supplied evidence from a UK bank .

ECO accuses my GF of wanting to stay in UK & not return home.

Yet if she wanted to stay in UK we would have applied for a settlement visa as we have a British citizen child.

Settlement visa would have given a right of appeal if denied.

 

EDIT BY MODERATOR: I have removed a serious allegation against a UK Government Employee, who cannot defend themselves.
If you wish to make such an allegation you should do so through the appropriate channel, this forum is not the appropriate medium.
theoldgit, Moderating Team

 

 

 

[Tony M]

45 minutes ago, AmazingTryland said:

ECO doesn't believe my GF can support herself during the holiday.

Yet I confirmed in writing I would pay for everything and supplied evidence from a UK bank .

ECO accuses my GF of wanting to stay in UK & not return home.

Yet if she wanted to stay in UK we would have applied for a settlement visa as we have a British citizen child.

Settlement visa would have given a right of appeal if denied.

It would be better if you posted the refusal notice.  As said before, the devil is in the detail.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, AmazingTryland said:

ECO doesn't believe my GF can support herself during the holiday.

Yet I confirmed in writing I would pay for everything and supplied evidence from a UK bank .

The refusal notice will say why the ECO did not accept that you would be able to support her while she is in the UK. To comment and advise on that, we need to know exactly what it says.

 

1 hour ago, AmazingTryland said:

ECO accuses my GF of wanting to stay in UK & not return home.

Yet if she wanted to stay in UK we would have applied for a settlement visa as we have a British citizen child.

Settlement visa would have given a right of appeal if denied.

It is not unheard of for visitors to attempt to use a visit visa to by pass the settlement rules and remain in the UK after their visa has expired. Indeed, this is probably more common since the current ridiculous financial requirement was introduced in 2012. The ECO obviously had doubts about your partner's intentions, and these should be detailed, with the reasoning behind them, in the refusal notice. To comment and advise on that we need to know exactly what it says.

 

57 minutes ago, Tony M said:

It would be better if you posted the refusal notice.  As said before, the devil is in the detail.

Indeed, without the refusal notice in full, everything posted here is pure conjecture and of no real use to you.

 

As already said, first remove all names and other identifying material; this is a public forum and there are a lot of nutters out there in cyberspace!

[bobrussell]

Complain all you like, to whomever you wish, all of them if you want but it will do absolutely no good at all and there will be no reversal of the decision.

I have tried it all, including the EU complaints procedures and it gets you absolutely nowhere! Nobody will be held to account. They are too well isolated and expect complaints as a matter of course.

The Independent Inspector of Borders and Immigration has found more than a few errors which were eventually corrected but long after the visit would have happened!

The system is as it is and if you feel you will change it, give it a go! Your MP may be sympathetic but even that is unlikely to change things (actually did for a visit my wife made to the UK!!!).

They have a specific office in Croydon specifically not dealing with complaints made! They will fob you off as well. Must be a very long corridor to deal with all the complaints!

 

UKVI Complaints Allocation Hub

 

Long Corridor 11^th Floor

 

Lunar House

 

40 Wellesley Road

 

Croydon CR9 2BY

 

 

 

[AmazingTryland]

ECO refused GF a Visit visa on the grounds :

 

Paragraph V4.2. (a) & (c) Appendix V

 

Paragraph V4.3 (c) Appendix V 

 

Immigration rules.

 

ECO also states no evidence of contact between me and GF.

Even though I sent sponsor letter & UK bank information.

ECO never checked with me or with GF employer who also included a letter in English. 

[AmazingTryland]

21 hours ago, bobrussell said:

Complain all you like, to whomever you wish, all of them if you want but it will do absolutely no good at all and there will be no reversal of the decision.

I have tried it all, including the EU complaints procedures and it gets you absolutely nowhere! Nobody will be held to account. They are too well isolated and expect complaints as a matter of course.

The Independent Inspector of Borders and Immigration has found more than a few errors which were eventually corrected but long after the visit would have happened!

The system is as it is and if you feel you will change it, give it a go! Your MP may be sympathetic but even that is unlikely to change things (actually did for a visit my wife made to the UK!!!).

They have a specific office in Croydon specifically not dealing with complaints made! They will fob you off as well. Must be a very long corridor to deal with all the complaints!

 

UKVI Complaints Allocation Hub

 

Long Corridor 11^th Floor

 

Lunar House

 

40 Wellesley Road

 

Croydon CR9 2BY

 

 

 

Thanks for your information.

 

We are going to complain to the home office about the ECO.

No doubt his work & decision will then be scrutinized .

ECO must be held to account.

[brewsterbudgen]

14 minutes ago, AmazingTryland said:

ECO refused GF a Visit visa on the grounds :

 

Paragraph V4.2. (a) & (c) Appendix V

 

Paragraph V4.3 (c) Appendix V 

 

Immigration rules.

 

ECO also states no evidence of contact between me and GF.

Even though I sent sponsor letter & UK bank information.

ECO never checked with me or with GF employer who also included a letter in English. 

Why didn't you provide evidence of contact - a letter doesn't do this.

 

Did the ECO call your girlfriend? 

[theoldgit]

I'm sorry but it's really no use cherry picking information from the notice of refusal, ECO's normally give their reasoning as to how they reached their conclusion, they don't normally just cite the appropriate para and leave you to guess the reasoning.

If they didn't provide the reasoning, then I apologise, and you may well have grounds to complain.

If I can pick up on a couple of points, you say the ECO didn't bother calling your girlfriends employer, they don't routinely do so, did the ECO say they doubted the validity of the information provided, if not then there's no real reason to call and check.

You say the ECO doubted communication between you both, this is particularly important when the sponsor lives in the UK and the applicant in Thailand. A sponsors covering letter and a bank statement isn't really evidence of regular contact, the ECO would be looking for something more concrete, maybe email or telephone logs or messaging interactions.

Nobody wants to stop you complaining, but from what you've shared so far, I can see very little for the ECO to be held accountable for.

[Jip99]

Without posting the refusal letter in full this thread is pointless.

[bobrussell]

By all means complain to the Home Office.

Unless you are royalty or similar there is almost no chance the ECO's work will come under scrutiny.

Part of a complex situation with my wife's best friend, she was refused a visit visa (not what was applied for) partly on the grounds the ECO believed she may work in the UK to pay for the trip. Actually the wife of a multimillionaire Swiss businessman and a Swiss resident so actually would be entitled to work in the UK under EEA law.

Did they sort it out? No chance!!

The UK lost out on thousands in spending  at Harrods and the like. Thankfully saved me a fortune because my wife likes to spend money too and could not afford to keep up!! They point blank refuse to have any dealings with the UK now and everyone went to Disneyland Paris instead.

The refusal letter will tell you why there was doubt regarding reasons to return.

Reapply and save your breath and all the adverse effects on your blood pressure!

[7by7]

1 hour ago, AmazingTryland said:

ECO refused GF a Visit visa on the grounds :

 

Paragraph V4.2. (a) & (c) Appendix V

 

Paragraph V4.3 (c) Appendix V 

 

Immigration rules.

 

ECO also states no evidence of contact between me and GF.

Even though I sent sponsor letter & UK bank information.

ECO never checked with me or with GF employer who also included a letter in English. 

 Those are the particular paragraphs of the rules which the ECO believed were not met. You can read them at Immigration Rules Appendix V: visitor rules

 

As theoldgit says, the refusal notice will give his/her reasons for believing that.

 

A sponsor's letter and bank information is not evidence of contact between sponsor and applicant. Did you provide any evidence of contact at all?

 

The visa section does sometimes contact an applicant's employer to confirm the contents of any letter, and also sometimes conduct a telephone interview with the applicant themselves. I have never known of a situation where a sponsor has been contacted; but this, of course, does not mean it never happens.

 

1 hour ago, AmazingTryland said:

We are going to complain to the home office about the ECO.

No doubt his work & decision will then be scrutinized .

ECO must be held to account.

ECOs can only judge an application on the evidence provided by the applicant. The onus is upon the applicant to ensure that evidence is complete and shows that they satisfy the requirements of the rules.

 

Although ECOs, or visa section staff, may, as I say above, make telephone enquires to clarify or confirm information provided, they are under no obligation to do so. They will certainly never contact an applicant or sponsor to chase after missing evidence.

 

I'm sorry, but the more you post the more it seems to me that this application was poorly prepared and that is why it was refused. That is, the fault is yours, not the ECO's.

 

Of course, if you post the refusal notice in full together with a full list of all the supporting documents provided with the application, we will all be better able to judge and so advise on your next step.

Edited August 18, 2017 by 7by7

[AmazingTryland]

7 hours ago, theoldgit said:

I'm sorry but it's really no use cherry picking information from the notice of refusal, ECO's normally give their reasoning as to how they reached their conclusion, they don't normally just cite the appropriate para and leave you to guess the reasoning.

If they didn't provide the reasoning, then I apologise, and you may well have grounds to complain.

If I can pick up on a couple of points, you say the ECO didn't bother calling your girlfriends employer, they don't routinely do so, did the ECO say they doubted the validity of the information provided, if not then there's no real reason to call and check.

You say the ECO doubted communication between you both, this is particularly important when the sponsor lives in the UK and the applicant in Thailand. A sponsors covering letter and a bank statement isn't really evidence of regular contact, the ECO would be looking for something more concrete, maybe email or telephone logs or messaging interactions.

Nobody wants to stop you complaining, but from what you've shared so far, I can see very little for the ECO to be held accountable for.

ECO has made a mistake. 

Purpose of visit was for my GF & our British Citizen young child to visit me and relatives in UK.

ECO didn't bother contacting me. ECO ignored GF employment & property evidence. She works for Thai government . 

ECOs  have been known to make mistakes.