What is it with all the fruit wine concealed as red wine?

[joeyg]

Thought this wasn't a bad every day drinkable wine.  I was surprised to find out when I looked at the back of the label but it was a fruit wine also. Amazing!!! https://www.vivino.com/wineries/nadin/wines/bin-777-cabernet-sauvignon-2013

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, joeyg said:

Thought this wasn't a bad every day drinkable wine.  I was surprised to find out when I looked at the back of the label but it was a fruit wine also. Amazing!!! https://www.vivino.com/wineries/nadin/wines/bin-777-cabernet-sauvignon-2013

Yes and a big con IMO........Even Vivino thought it was an Aussie wine but look at the details on their website..........

 

Manufacturer: 159--167 SOI SUKHUMVIT 62 SUKHUMVIT RD, BANGCHAK, PRAKHANONG, BANGKOK 10260 THAILAND

 

THAI SPIRIT INDUSTRY CO., LTD.

 

TSI BACKGROUND

TSI is the manufacturer of ready-to-drink alcoholic ,widely know as RTD. Our production facility is conveniently located in Bangpakong Industrial Park Estate, Chacheosao province , an only 30 minute drive from Bangkok. With the annual production capacity of over 10 million liters for RTD and our aspiration to be a key player in the international beverage market, we are confident of our potential as an ideal global business partner.

 

TSI TECHNOLOGY

TSI Bottling line has the advantage of the latest know-how from Germany, KRONES , the world’s leader in automatic bottling technology , and is also equipped with Siemens ‘s most advanced Programmable Logic Control program which prevents product contamination as required by HACC Standard. And also Tanks and Pipes are made from contamination free, stainless steel 316 L.

[joeyg]

3 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Yes and a big con IMO........Even Vivino thought it was an Aussie wine but look at the details on their website..........

 

Manufacturer: 159--167 SOI SUKHUMVIT 62 SUKHUMVIT RD, BANGCHAK, PRAKHANONG, BANGKOK 10260 THAILAND

 

THAI SPIRIT INDUSTRY CO., LTD.

 

TSI BACKGROUND

TSI is the manufacturer of ready-to-drink alcoholic ,widely know as RTD. Our production facility is conveniently located in Bangpakong Industrial Park Estate, Chacheosao province , an only 30 minute drive from Bangkok. With the annual production capacity of over 10 million liters for RTD and our aspiration to be a key player in the international beverage market, we are confident of our potential as an ideal global business partner.

 

TSI TECHNOLOGY

TSI Bottling line has the advantage of the latest know-how from Germany, KRONES , the world’s leader in automatic bottling technology , and is also equipped with Siemens ‘s most advanced Programmable Logic Control program which prevents product contamination as required by HACC Standard. And also Tanks and Pipes are made from contamination free, stainless steel 316 L.

Whoever engineered the Nadin fruit wine did a hell of a job.  It seems to agree with me although I don't think I will drink it anymore Now knowing this.

 

[oldhippy]

8 euro for a fruit wine.... I guess that would be my limit - if indeed it is drinkable (nice label, ugly deception).

 

In Europe my limit is 6 euro, and with some searching I get excellent wines for that price.

 

Aaaaaarrrrggghh about 1euro for a liter of chardonnay at the cave cooperative in.... the town of Chardonnay - bring your own jerrycan.....

 

[VocalNeal]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

bring your own jerrycan.....

Wines and aperitifs are often transported by tanker truck so a Jerrycan should be OK?  As for that matter is beer.

[oldhippy]

8 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Wines and aperitifs are often transported by tanker truck so a Jerrycan should be OK?  As for that matter is beer.

I once made a long bicycle tour (4.000km) through France and Cataluna.

I would go into a cave cooperative with 2 "bidons" - plastic water bottles that you can fix to a bicycle - and ask " 1 red, 1 white please".

 

Sometimes got them for free - they thought it was hilarious.

Ah, real culture, real joie de vivre...

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

19 hours ago, xylophone said:

Yes and this wine is actually bottled in Vietnam with grape juice from Oz and fruit juice of "black fruits" added, before being exported to Thailand. The white wine of similar origin has passion fruit juice added.

That sound like liquid headache.

I wonder what is the origin of the alcohol. Chemical processed ethanol?

[oldhippy]

3 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

That sound like liquid headache.

I wonder what is the origin of the alcohol. Chemical processed ethanol?

The origin of alcohol in fruit wine? We will never know!

 

Added chemical ethanol to keep the % up?

Fermentation of grapes and fruit together?

Separate fermentation of fruit juice?

 

 

 

 

[xylophone]

6 hours ago, joeyg said:

Whoever engineered the Nadin fruit wine did a hell of a job.  It seems to agree with me although I don't think I will drink it anymore Now knowing this.

 

Hey, if you like it and it suits you, then why not drink it!! 

[xylophone]

4 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

That sound like liquid headache.

I wonder what is the origin of the alcohol. Chemical processed ethanol?

No I think the alcohol is as a result of the fermentation process, but have never been able to find out whether the fruit juice is fermented with the grape juice or added after?????

[irishken]

Everybody is complaining about fruit wine been in small writing on the back label.

So Viagra must be bad for your eyesight then?

[Oxx]

There's an interesting article (undated, but probably about a year old) explaining some of the reasons fruit wine masquerading as real wine has started appearing in Thailand and where it started.  It also lists the brands to avoid:

 

Knight Black Horse

Peter Vella

Montclair

Belleville

Berri Estates

Cask 88

Corte Antica

Finca De Malpica

Mar Sol

 

With the exception of Belleville and Corte Antica, all of these fruit wines appear to come out of Siam Winery.

 

http://wineandabout.com/business/fruit-appearing-shelves/

[craigt3365]

On 08/31/2017 at 5:02 PM, irishken said:

Everybody is complaining about fruit wine been in small writing on the back label.

So Viagra must be bad for your eyesight then?

Read the article posted above. The labeling is deceptive. Plain and simple.

[craigt3365]

7 minutes ago, Oxx said:

There's an interesting article (undated, but probably about a year old) explaining some of the reasons fruit wine masquerading as real wine has started appearing in Thailand and where it started.  It also lists the brands to avoid:

 

Knight Black Horse

Peter Vella

Montclair

Belleville

Berri Estates

Cask 88

Corte Antica

Finca De Malpica

Mar Sol

 

With the exception of Belleville and Corte Antica, all of these fruit wines appear to come out of Siam Winery.

 

http://wineandabout.com/business/fruit-appearing-shelves/

Excellent article. And yes, those "wines" are terrible.

[oldhippy]

Funny isn't it?

 

We still do not know if fruit juice is blended into these fruit wines.

Maybe it is just a tax scam to write this in very small print on the back label.

Maybe it is just pure very low quality wine?

And if the fruit wines do contain fruit, we still do not know what that means: fruit juice blended in? fermented fruit juice blended in? grape juice blended with fruit juice fermented together? with our without chemical ethanol?

 

The only thing we do know is that they have a terrible taste.

And that most of it comes from the Red Bull criminal family.

 

But more importantly: has anyone found a drinkable fruit wine yet?

 

 

 

[xylophone]

4 hours ago, Oxx said:

There's an interesting article (undated, but probably about a year old) explaining some of the reasons fruit wine masquerading as real wine has started appearing in Thailand and where it started.  It also lists the brands to avoid:

 

Knight Black Horse

Peter Vella

Montclair

Belleville

Berri Estates

Cask 88

Corte Antica

Finca De Malpica

Mar Sol

 

With the exception of Belleville and Corte Antica, all of these fruit wines appear to come out of Siam Winery.

 

http://wineandabout.com/business/fruit-appearing-shelves/

Yes I had seen an article before somewhere and I think it was commented upon in the Montclair thread, but great to resurrect it (thank you) as I had forgotten all about it.

 

As was mentioned in the article and has been on this thread, a lot of folk really don't know what they are drinking and it is not made easier by the "almost omission" of exactly what is in the wine.

 

You can add a lot more to the list above, many of which are produced in Australia and mixed with the fruit juice before being exported to this country and if you look on the shelves in most supermarkets you will find: – Cedar Creek, Berri Estates, Rolling, Bodegas Valley (despite the label it is Australian), Castle Creek, Laughing Bird, Château Vendôme (this may be a Siam winery concoction as well?) And then you have wines from France such as Fleur du Galetis and from South Africa, Robertson's Estate (or similar name).............. and there are many others, the names of which escape me.

 

A couple of the wines mentioned above can be bona fide and it seems as if the producer caters to two markets, both the fruit wine and the normal wine markets, splitting the range based on price.

 

"Old hippy" asked a few questions about the actual production and I have telephoned and written to Siam winery to get an answer, but none was forthcoming and I then contacted a friend of mine in Australia, whose son is an assistant winemaker in one of the producers of this stuff and he would not answer me either?

 

Nothing to be ashamed of if everything is "above-board" so I would suspect that the producers don't really want the consumers to know how the stuff is made, or indeed what they are actually drinking. 

 

[Oxx]

Just looking at the Tesco-Lotus online offerings is dispiriting.  Completely dominated by the fake fruit wine.  The site also doesn't give any information to help one discriminate between the fake and the real.

 

https://shoponline.tescolotus.com/groceries/en-GB/shop/beverages-snacks-and-desserts/alcoholic-beverages/all?shelf=4294964165&viewAll=shelf%2Cbrand

Edited September 3, 2017 by Oxx

[xylophone]

21 minutes ago, Oxx said:

Just looking at the Tesco-Lotus online offerings is dispiriting.  Completely dominated by the fake fruit wine.  The site also doesn't give any information to help one discriminate between the fake and the real.

 

https://shoponline.tescolotus.com/groceries/en-GB/shop/beverages-snacks-and-desserts/alcoholic-beverages/all?shelf=4294964165&viewAll=shelf%2Cbrand

You'd have to look on the labels/boxes to know what is fruit wine what isn't, although as I have stated before, most of the ones which originate from overseas do clearly state that fruit juice is added.

 

The only good thing about the list you provided is the fact that the Montepulciano is now 499 baht and if it is the same as I have bought previously for 549 baht, then I will go and buy some more.

[topt]

22 minutes ago, xylophone said:

You'd have to look on the labels/boxes to know what is fruit wine what isn't, although as I have stated before, most of the ones which originate from overseas do clearly state that fruit juice is added.

 

The only good thing about the list you provided is the fact that the Montepulciano is now 499 baht and if it is the same as I have bought previously for 549 baht, then I will go and buy some more.

Yes that's been my go to staple recently. The Rioja is not bad but unfortunately 799baht. The Tesco finest range appear to offer better value than most.

However I tried either the Carmenere or Merlot and was disappointed.

Edited September 3, 2017 by topt
typo

[partington]

Anyone with a palate basically able to taste anything should be able to tell instantly whether a wine has been made completely from fermented grape juice, and then after completion of the wine making process has had a quantity of fresh fruit juice added before being sold!.

 

If you cannot tell just from the taste whether this has happened then clearly it doesn't matter what you are drinking!

 

Take Berri estates, for example, at 549B or so a box of 3 litres. This is labelled as fruit wine.  It tastes fine.  It is 13% alcohol, and most sources agree that with the common yeasts in use in most wineries 15% is the highest alcohol content attainable. (Let us ignore special yeasts, special wineries and all the kinds of things that do exist, but are not likely to be common or garden wine production, as would be the basis for the production of these cheap wines).

 

This means that if fresh fruit juice were added to the completed wine, to get it to 13% from 15%, you would need to add 100ml of fresh fruit juice to 650ml of finished fermented grape wine, or 20mls of fruit juice per 150ml glass.

 

I can tell just by tasting that Berri Estates does not contain 20ml of fresh fruit juice, (pomegranate or blackcurrant, redcurrant or whatever) per glass!  

 

This does not mean that some wines in Thailand do not have fresh fruit juice and sugar added. Some do.  You can tell by tasting which ones these are (and if you can't, why do you care?)

[xylophone]

29 minutes ago, partington said:

Anyone with a palate basically able to taste anything should be able to tell instantly whether a wine has been made completely from fermented grape juice, and then after completion of the wine making process has had a quantity of fresh fruit juice added before being sold!.

 

If you cannot tell just from the taste whether this has happened then clearly it doesn't matter what you are drinking!

 

Take Berri estates, for example, at 549B or so a box of 3 litres. This is labelled as fruit wine.  It tastes fine.  It is 13% alcohol, and most sources agree that with the common yeasts in use in most wineries 15% is the highest alcohol content attainable. (Let us ignore special yeasts, special wineries and all the kinds of things that do exist, but are not likely to be common or garden wine production, as would be the basis for the production of these cheap wines).

 

This means that if fresh fruit juice were added to the completed wine, to get it to 13% from 15%, you would need to add 100ml of fresh fruit juice to 650ml of finished fermented grape wine, or 20mls of fruit juice per 150ml glass.

 

I can tell just by tasting that Berri Estates does not contain 20ml of fresh fruit juice, (pomegranate or blackcurrant, redcurrant or whatever) per glass!  

 

This does not mean that some wines in Thailand do not have fresh fruit juice and sugar added. Some do.  You can tell by tasting which ones these are (and if you can't, why do you care?)

I think much of what you say is true and I have often thought that fruit juice added to the final product would be easily detectable and possibly too unstable. Therefore fruit juice added to the pre-fermentation mix would seem the most likely.

 

This brings up another point I have mentioned previously because a lot of fruit juice is actually pasteurised to keep it stable as well as having preservatives added, so if this is the case, then you are getting a fairly inert fruit juice added to the mix?

 

Pasteurisation would seem the best bet because it will mean the fruit juice is stable and can be stored in the winery for use, whereas added preservatives will hinder the fermentation process of the complete product.

 

So by my reasoning, pasteurised fruit juice is probably added to the pre-fermentation mix, so it is fermented along with the grape juice......but then again all this is supposition until we know the actual process and that is why I have been trying to find out from the producers both here and in Australia, but with no success.

 

The other reason for doing this is to find out why I do get a headache after a few glasses of the likes of Montclair and that was even before I knew what I was being served at a local restaurant here, which made a lovely Friday night paella!! Having said that, I can take a couple of glasses of the Berri Estates rich red, I think it's called, but that's about it. 

 

I guess we'll never know unless we can corner a whistleblower from the winery!!

[kkerry]

In the article linked earlier, several people in the comments suggest whatever the label may say, there is no fruit juice added to some of the wines from overseas.

There is of course one very obvious reason why the labels might say there is, even if there isn't any.. 

 

Berri Estates is a very large, very old Australian winery (I think they may even own Banrock Station, a couple of dollars cheaper than Jacobs Creek as an everyday modestly priced bottle for many people). You will find Berri 5lt casks and Banrock Station bottles & casks in almost every liquor outlet in Australia.

 

Check Dan Murphy's online and you can see the stated alcohol content of the various Berri Estates cask wines e.g. Traditional Dry Red is 13%, Classic Dry White 11%

If anyone has a Thai version handy it would be interesting to compare the alcohol content listed.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by kkerry

[Lucky mike]

Possible to form club and import in bulk then bottle for private use ? Anyone know what import costs involved ?

[ExpatOilWorker]

3 hours ago, partington said:

Anyone with a palate basically able to taste anything should be able to tell instantly whether a wine has been made completely from fermented grape juice, and then after completion of the wine making process has had a quantity of fresh fruit juice added before being sold!.

 

If you cannot tell just from the taste whether this has happened then clearly it doesn't matter what you are drinking!

 

Take Berri estates, for example, at 549B or so a box of 3 litres. This is labelled as fruit wine.  It tastes fine.  It is 13% alcohol, and most sources agree that with the common yeasts in use in most wineries 15% is the highest alcohol content attainable. (Let us ignore special yeasts, special wineries and all the kinds of things that do exist, but are not likely to be common or garden wine production, as would be the basis for the production of these cheap wines).

 

This means that if fresh fruit juice were added to the completed wine, to get it to 13% from 15%, you would need to add 100ml of fresh fruit juice to 650ml of finished fermented grape wine, or 20mls of fruit juice per 150ml glass.

 

I can tell just by tasting that Berri Estates does not contain 20ml of fresh fruit juice, (pomegranate or blackcurrant, redcurrant or whatever) per glass!  

 

This does not mean that some wines in Thailand do not have fresh fruit juice and sugar added. Some do.  You can tell by tasting which ones these are (and if you can't, why do you care?)

I find it very important to know what I eat and drink is Asia. It is very possible that fake Chinese food products already have made their way to the Thai market.

 

http://www.chimpost.com/the-10-food-scams-that-only-china-would-have

[xylophone]

19 hours ago, kkerry said:

In the article linked earlier, several people in the comments suggest whatever the label may say, there is no fruit juice added to some of the wines from overseas.

There is of course one very obvious reason why the labels might say there is, even if there isn't any.. 

 

Berri Estates is a very large, very old Australian winery (I think they may even own Banrock Station, a couple of dollars cheaper than Jacobs Creek as an everyday modestly priced bottle for many people). You will find Berri 5lt casks and Banrock Station bottles & casks in almost every liquor outlet in Australia.

 

Check Dan Murphy's online and you can see the stated alcohol content of the various Berri Estates cask wines e.g. Traditional Dry Red is 13%, Classic Dry White 11%

If anyone has a Thai version handy it would be interesting to compare the alcohol content listed.

 

 

Not quite sure where you are coming from with this (respectfully)?

 

Some of the wines from overseas do not have fruit juice added, and those that do, state it quite clearly. However there are those who produce wines for home consumption without fruit juice and produce wines with fruit juice for export and I believe Accolade Wines, the conglomerate which owns Berri and many other labels/producers, does just this.

 

However it gets a bit tricky if you delve deeply into their website and other avenues of information, because they do promote Montclair, for example, and nowhere does it state that this is fruit wine. The same way that they promote the bottles of Berri Estate wines, which I believe are produced by Siam winery----- obviously a tie-up between these.

 

It seems to be getting to the state where the French wine market was decades ago, where you never quite knew what you were getting, or where it came from, let alone the grapes that were in it and a huge cleanup was needed in that market to restore consumer confidence. 

 

Quite how Accolade wines and Siam winery can get away with what they do seems incredible and perhaps a cleanup is needed at the Australian end as well as the Thailand end, but the latter would seem a big task because of the power and position of the wealthy owner.

[xylophone]

On 9/3/2017 at 3:49 PM, kkerry said:

If anyone has a Thai version handy it would be interesting to compare the alcohol content listed.

Sorry kkerry, I meant to get back to you on that because I did go and have a look here in Big C and the alcohol content on the cask of Berri Estates red is 13%.

 

The bottles of Berri Estates seem to be bottled by Siam winery (although I couldn't fully see the print because it was so small) and the words Fruit Wine are just about discernible on the bottom of the back label.

[kkerry]

Same alcohol content as in Australia then. If they were using enough fruit juice to get a tax cut you would think the difference in taste would be noticeable.

 

I'm guessing casks are packaged in Australia and exported as is (not much difference in freight costs) while bottled wine is sent in bulk and bottled in Thailand, in the same way cheaper Scotch is sent to Australia, water added and bottled locally to reduce freight costs. Probably needs an investigative journalist with industry contacts to work out what really happens to cheap imported wine in Thailand.

[xylophone]

11 minutes ago, kkerry said:

Same alcohol content as in Australia then. If they were using enough fruit juice to get a tax cut you would think the difference in taste would be noticeable.

 

I'm guessing casks are packaged in Australia and exported as is (not much difference in freight costs) while bottled wine is sent in bulk and bottled in Thailand, in the same way cheaper Scotch is sent to Australia, water added and bottled locally to reduce freight costs. Probably needs an investigative journalist with industry contacts to work out what really happens to cheap imported wine in Thailand.

Not sure that this is the situation in all cases though agree with the basics..........this because, for example, the "Rolling" range in bottles with fruit juice added is bottled in OZ (I think.......must check next time out)!!!!

[Henryford]

I always thought that all wine was made from fruit

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 8/30/2017 at 5:32 PM, xylophone said:

Yes and this wine is actually bottled in Vietnam with grape juice from Oz and fruit juice of "black fruits" added, before being exported to Thailand. The white wine of similar origin has passion fruit juice added.

Since this wine is bottled in Vietnam, it really should say "Made in Vietnam", but it clearly says PRODUCT OF AUSTRALIA, what a deception.

 

Except for Australian wines, it is safe to assume that wine from other major producers, France, Chile, Italy, etc always will be 100% genuine wine?