Thaksin founded the Shinawatra dynasty, but the military empowered it

[yellowboat]

2 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Not sure why you are siting China as an example? China remains a communist state run by a seven man politburo. I don't think they are about to hold elections any time soon, well not the type we might expect in democratic societies anyway.

The system might include factions of the Communist Party of China but they all adhere strictly to Marxist doctrine. Considering the Party control the Red Army it could be seen that China's form of communism is just another military junta by another name.

That is the text book description of China and parts of what you say is true.  But the Chinese seem to be better educated than Thailand and have access to greater prosperity.  There is quite a bit of freedom in China that is not available in Thailand.  Wireless technology is not forbidden, interesting well paying jobs are more plentiful, transportation in big cities is better. 

 

Sadly, the junta will be around for quite a while.  They will probably allow the same sort of representational government that China will allow in Hong Kong. 

 

Have you lived in China ?

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

2 hours ago, yellowboat said:

That is the text book description of China and parts of what you say is true.  But the Chinese seem to be better educated than Thailand and have access to greater prosperity.  There is quite a bit of freedom in China that is not available in Thailand.  Wireless technology is not forbidden, interesting well paying jobs are more plentiful, transportation in big cities is better. 

 

Sadly, the junta will be around for quite a while.  They will probably allow the same sort of representational government that China will allow in Hong Kong. 

 

Have you lived in China ?

I have not lived there but my son has.

So I ask: do you think a communist state is the right system for Thailand? Is communism the way forward? Taiwan seem to do okay with their system, and Vietnam is on the up.

But no elections, no internet sites unless CP sanctioned etc etc.

Is Marxist idealism your goal?

It never seems to achieve anything more than capitalism, and is much more oppressive.

Sorry, but we are really talking about how badly democracy is abused in Thailand, and what is the answer now the Shins have been found out and ousted.

With your attitude it could easily slip into another North Korea with Thaksin at the helm (now Rama 9 has gone).

Thailand has to grow up.

 

Happy dreams.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[Ricardo]

9 hours ago, moe666 said:

You do not know that much about Chiang Mai and the North as you think. Yes he has a power base here but do not ever think every person in the North follows him in lock step.

  Spot-on !

 

It's several years since I saw a breakdown-by-province of the votes, but Chiang Mai only had about 60% for the reds, hence the 'need' for a certain local red activist-group to ensure that there are no open signs of open-dissent, in the Shins' home-province.  Which they used to do, very effectively.

 

Also a couple of provinces on the Burmese-border did vote for the Dems overall, in 2011.

[jayboy]

I have not lived there but my son has.
So I ask: do you think a communist state is the right system for Thailand? Is communism the way forward? Taiwan seem to do okay with their system, and Vietnam is on the up.
But no elections, no internet sites unless CP sanctioned etc etc.
Is Marxist idealism your goal?
It never seems to achieve anything more than capitalism, and is much more oppressive.
Sorry, but we are really talking about how badly democracy is abused in Thailand, and what is the answer now the Shins have been found out and ousted.
With your attitude it could easily slip into another North Korea with Thaksin at the helm (now Rama 9 has gone).
Thailand has to grow up.
 
Happy dreams.
 
 
 
 
 

China is Marxist in name only.The structure of the communist party remains since it administers power effectively, but the ideological underpinning is non existent.What has replaced ideology is a Faustian pact between rulers and ruled.As long as prosperity increases and broadens the people will not question power being in the hands of a small elite.What drives the economy is capitalism red in tooth and claw.

Unlike Thailand that elite is highly intelligent and effective.The reduction of poverty in China is almost a miracle.

If the CP fails to deliver the goods or there is a prolonged reversal, It all could get ugly.But I don't see that happening any time soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[superglue]

The B30 health system was a game changer.

[joecoolfrog]

On Friday, September 01, 2017 at 1:53 AM, phantomfiddler said:

The Redshirts have a very valid cause, the struggle for equality of justice and democracy. So unfortunate that they fell under the leadership of the most corrupt person/family in Thai history. In the long run they would do well to distance themselves from this influence so that they could possibly move on into a legitimate political force. Unfortunately there is a distinct possibility that their present leaders are only there to suck up the shinawatra funding.

So you know nothing of Thai history then !

[joecoolfrog]

On Friday, September 01, 2017 at 2:38 AM, Baerboxer said:

 

And yet the author of this article again misrepresents how Yingluck was dismissed from office.

 

I guess being removed by a coup suits his article better than the reality of being dismissed by a court for an illegal abuse of power!

Excellent article and that is all you gathered from it , you have some serious issues lol

[ovi1kanobi]

1 hour ago, superglue said:

The B30 health system was a game changer.

Thaksin charged 30 baht now its free. and that 30 baht per person went straight to his bank account.

[joecoolfrog]

On Friday, September 01, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Baerboxer said:

 

Nonsense. And a pathetically crude attempt at sophistry.

 

I did not post the words or make the statement that you include. It's is against forum rules to change a posters words in such a twisted manner btw.

 

Nitpicking - you mean an inconvenient truth. Don't you think the person who appointed them, pay them and instructs them might be using them for self interest?

 

No one voted for any UDD or Red Shirt leader - they were appointed, that's the point. Or do you think that's democratic.

 

Do not try to invalidate my posts with false logic and assumptions or I will be force to report you. The UDD and Red Shirts are not political parties. They are pressure groups formed to support one particular party.

 

 

You are nitpicking and have been for a while . You constantly evade a major point by being pedantic in the extreme. To be fair when one is on such a sticky wicket , the only choice is to block or stay in the pavillion.

[Ricardo]

11 minutes ago, ovi1kanobi said:

Thaksin charged 30 baht now its free. and that 30 baht per person went straight to his bank account.

 

I agree completely with your first sentence, but would be interested to see any link you may have, for the second one ?

[jayboy]

16 minutes ago, ovi1kanobi said:

Thaksin charged 30 baht now its free. and that 30 baht per person went straight to his bank account.

Despite stiff competition, I think the post above has won the prize for unqualified absurdity.

 

 

[jayboy]

6 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

I agree completely with your first sentence, but would be interested to see any link you may have, for the second one ?

There is none.It's just a lie but so stupid and brain numbing that one wondered why he bothered.

[joecoolfrog]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

There is none.It's just a lie but so stupid and brain numbing that one wondered why he bothered.

For the sake of humanity I hope he is a troll.

[jayboy]

Just now, joecoolfrog said:

For the sake of humanity I hope he is a troll.

Yes you're probably right.The thought occurred to me afterwards.Yet there so many mad opinions out there fervently believed that sorting out the trolls is problematic sometimes.

 

I guess we have to live with the crazies on a forum like this.

[JAG]

Thaksin charged 30 baht now its free. and that 30 baht per person went straight to his bank account.

You really do post some utter b*ll*cks!

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, JAG said:

You really do post some utter b*ll*cks!

Ignore the recalcitrant lying troll JAG. 

[yellowboat]

5 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I have not lived there but my son has.

So I ask: do you think a communist state is the right system for Thailand? Is communism the way forward? Taiwan seem to do okay with their system, and Vietnam is on the up.

But no elections, no internet sites unless CP sanctioned etc etc.

Is Marxist idealism your goal?

It never seems to achieve anything more than capitalism, and is much more oppressive.

Sorry, but we are really talking about how badly democracy is abused in Thailand, and what is the answer now the Shins have been found out and ousted.

With your attitude it could easily slip into another North Korea with Thaksin at the helm (now Rama 9 has gone).

Thailand has to grow up.

 

Happy dreams.

Just comparing the present state of Thailand with that of the China.  Not advocating the same system of government, but they are starting to look alike with Thailand offering less opportunity for its citizens. 

 

When it comes to governance, the Taiwanese system is what Thailand should strive for.  Most people feel that a representative form of government is impossible in Asia.  Taiwan and Japan and perhaps South Korea are successful examples.

 

As much as you poo poo China, and some of the criticism is warranted, the first libertarian was Lao Tzu, who lived in China 600 years before Christ.  He spoke of a government that governs little.  Sadly, most governments over govern or over cook the small fish, as he put it.

 

 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, ovi1kanobi said:

Thaksin charged 30 baht now its free. and that 30 baht per person went straight to his bank account.

 

Another mis statement from you.

 

It is a LIE that the 30 baht went straight into his bank account. If you have 100% proof of that then I suggest that you present that proof to the current government, the police and the courts. If you do not have that proof then I suggest that you retract what you have said.

 

It is true that under Thaksin people were charged 30 baht.

 

It is equally true that under the Democrats the 30 baht fee was abolished.

 

It is equally true that under the PTP government of Yingluck the 30 baht fees was re applied.

[spidermike007]

On 9/1/2017 at 5:13 AM, Samui Bodoh said:

 

Or, put another way, Bangkok's middle classes and elites arrogantly believe that only they should have a voice in the running of Thailand. Not surprisingly, rural voters and the poor don't accept this. 

 

While I am not a fan of the Shins or the red shirts, I applaud them for opening up the debate and empowering the less fortunate. They have created a situation whereby any future government will have to take into account the needs of the poor and rural people if they want to have any chance of success. 

 

The lesson for the Bangkok elite and middle classes is that you cannot ignore a large portion of the population anymore. 

 

And you won't have legitimacy if you do. Period.

 

And that is a good thing. 

 

 

As much as some of us disliked Thaksin, and Yingluck, the former was the first prime minister in the history of the nation to really do anything specific, to benefit the poor. The vast majority of the nation had been completely ignored prior to that. Perhaps the small man can learn something from that lesson. Perhaps. He does not appear to embrace learning, nor does he seem to have any interest in doing anything to benefit the majority. 

[4MyEgo]

On 01/09/2017 at 7:51 AM, webfact said:

Meanwhile the military has indicated it intends to control the country for the next decade or two, pending permission from the political elite and middle class and their continuing willingness to limit democracy to prevent the return of the Shinawatra clan.

There you have it, "the military has indicated that intends to control the country for the next decade or two" and all of you were moaning and groaning how bad the Thai's had it under the Shinawatra's, democracy in Thailand is now well and truly a thing of the past.

[4MyEgo]

On 01/09/2017 at 0:36 PM, jayboy said:

It's interesting that this article from The Nation notes that the military ousted Yingluck in 2014.Obviously this is shorthand given the directed court intervention.But everyone understands what is meant.

 

Yet when one refers to military involvement in Yingluck's ouster on this forum there is usually a scream of outrage from the usual suspects.Much the same happens if one mentions the military's involvement in Thaksin's ouster (he wasn't PM at the time etc etc ad nauseam).

 

It's just a reminder that those who seek to manipulate and deceive about the past can hardly be taken seriously when they comment on the present.

I dare say your partly correct.

 

He was overthrown in a military coup on 19 September 2006. His party was outlawed and he was barred from political activity.^[4]

 

After mass protests against her government in late 2013, she asked for a dissolution of parliament on 9 December 2013, triggering a snap election, but continued to act as caretaker prime minister.^[9] On 7 May 2014, the Constitutional Court of Thailand removed Yingluck Shinawatra from the office of caretaker prime minister and defence minister following months of political crisis.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

17 hours ago, joecoolfrog said:

So you know nothing of Thai history then !

The point he made was valid, but missed vital points just the same as the "professor" did in his article. And I do know plenty about Thai history.

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

4 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I dare say your partly correct.

 

He was overthrown in a military coup on 19 September 2006. His party was outlawed and he was barred from political activity.^[4]

 

After mass protests against her government in late 2013, she asked for a dissolution of parliament on 9 December 2013, triggering a snap election, but continued to act as caretaker prime minister.^[9] On 7 May 2014, the Constitutional Court of Thailand removed Yingluck Shinawatra from the office of caretaker prime minister and defence minister following months of political crisis.

Why was that not even referred to in the article. To mislead the reader I suspect.

Oh, don't forget Thaksin was in the US and it was all done very easily with no bloodshed, unlike his murderous "war on drugs" campaign that saw thousands injudiciously shot on a false pretext.

If the rice scam had really helped the northern farmers nobody would have complained, but all it did was line the pockets of the Phew Thai Party.

It is easy to brush the truth under the fridge (nobody has carpets anymore) when trying to make a point.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

14 hours ago, yellowboat said:

Just comparing the present state of Thailand with that of the China.  Not advocating the same system of government, but they are starting to look alike with Thailand offering less opportunity for its citizens. 

 

When it comes to governance, the Taiwanese system is what Thailand should strive for.  Most people feel that a representative form of government is impossible in Asia.  Taiwan and Japan and perhaps South Korea are successful examples.

 

As much as you poo poo China, and some of the criticism is warranted, the first libertarian was Lao Tzu, who lived in China 600 years before Christ.  He spoke of a government that governs little.  Sadly, most governments over govern or over cook the small fish, as he put it.

 

 

Thanks for that, very good point.

I am not as such poo pooing China, but wondering where politics world wide is headed.

The cry for democracy seems to me to be misguided as it is only possibly the best of a bad choice. It is abused for gain (as it is here), or overtaken by bureaucracy and idealist expansionism (as in the EU).

In communist run countries there is discontent as the people feel disenfranchised, but remain suppressed.

Also, these days in the west minorities seem to get a disproportionate say, and mass demonstrations against majority decisions are rife.

 

The ancient philosophers quotes are only relevant now simply because we don't learn from history...

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

20 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

China is Marxist in name only.The structure of the communist party remains since it administers power effectively, but the ideological underpinning is non existent.What has replaced ideology is a Faustian pact between rulers and ruled.As long as prosperity increases and broadens the people will not question power being in the hands of a small elite.What drives the economy is capitalism red in tooth and claw.

Unlike Thailand that elite is highly intelligent and effective.The reduction of poverty in China is almost a miracle.

If the CP fails to deliver the goods or there is a prolonged reversal, It all could get ugly.But I don't see that happening any time soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

A little confusing my friend.

A "Faustian Pact" doesn't sound like a stable basis for long term government without total repression.

You say it could turn ugly, it has before in China!

 

The trouble is, since they are now a major financial player, if the dissidents dare to rise up and are suppressed once again what will it do to the western economies, and how could they react?

With N Korea's increasing threat and Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea, are we once more in a scenario that will lead to huge conflict?

 

Oh dear, time for a beer...

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 02/09/2017 at 1:57 AM, Reigntax said:

 

But still far better representation than they currently do under a self appointed, non elected, undemocratic, unrepresentative of the people government which somehow you conveniently ignore.

This country is a very young democracy. It is abused by all that enter power as corruption is rife in every corner.

Without a definitive rule of law nothing will change.

Fleeing from the scene is seem all the time, nobody will stand up and be counted, right or wrong.

Check back on the struggle for democracy in history for the countries that have it now...

 

A few submarines and tanks for the county's armed forces is nothing compared to the personal gains made by democratically elected leaders (that became dictators) here, or elsewhere in history.

Think reality, not Nirvana!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

A little confusing my friend.

A "Faustian Pact" doesn't sound like a stable basis for long term government without total repression.

You say it could turn ugly, it has before in China!

 

The trouble is, since they are now a major financial player, if the dissidents dare to rise up and are suppressed once again what will it do to the western economies, and how could they react?

With N Korea's increasing threat and Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea, are we once more in a scenario that will lead to huge conflict?

 

Oh dear, time for a beer...

 

 

 

 

You say confusing but you nevertheless seem to have understood my point.Faustian Pact is exactly that with the implications you note.I don't think dissidents, at least in the normal sense, will be the catalyst but rather a disillusioned and disappointed middle class (now a huge and growing number).But there are two key and unpredictable elements - whether the the economy will fail and how the PLA will react.It's worth stressing however that the Chinese leadership has always amazing powers of ingenuity and pragmatism.I would guess they will find a way through.I don't like them but I respect them.Bit different from Thai politicians of all stripes:I quite like them but don't respect them.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Quote

Therefore, the 2010 red-shirt protest was not primarily an endorsement of the Shinawatra family, but rather an outcry by the long-ignored rural poor, who wanted to protect their voting rights under the Thai constitution and the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Thailand is a signatory.

 

I'll begin to believe that when the PTP selects a future leader that isn't a family member or puppet of the Shinawatra clan. Until then, at least in terms of the leadership of the party and its priorities, it's still a fugitives family business.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

17 hours ago, jayboy said:

You say confusing but you nevertheless seem to have understood my point.Faustian Pact is exactly that with the implications you note.I don't think dissidents, at least in the normal sense, will be the catalyst but rather a disillusioned and disappointed middle class (now a huge and growing number).But there are two key and unpredictable elements - whether the the economy will fail and how the PLA will react.It's worth stressing however that the Chinese leadership has always amazing powers of ingenuity and pragmatism.I would guess they will find a way through.I don't like them but I respect them.Bit different from Thai politicians of all stripes:I quite like them but don't respect them.

You make some very interesting points.

Unpredictable elements are what we should worry about indeed, and there are now many causing problems that a simple but bloody face to face conflict cannot solve.

Do you think the Chinese middle class will get a voice?

I think they call the Chinese system "totalitarianism", it works, but is it acceptable?

What do the west do about N Korea if China continue to sanction what they are doing???

The Chinese have been known as "inscrutable" for centuries!

 

Cheers G

 

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[Khun Han]

23 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

This country is a very young democracy. It is abused by all that enter power as corruption is rife in every corner.

Without a definitive rule of law nothing will change.

Fleeing from the scene is seem all the time, nobody will stand up and be counted, right or wrong.

Check back on the struggle for democracy in history for the countries that have it now...

 

A few submarines and tanks for the county's armed forces is nothing compared to the personal gains made by democratically elected leaders (that became dictators) here, or elsewhere in history.

Think reality, not Nirvana!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A few tanks and submarines? Are you avvin a laff??? The army is into everything (and I mean everything). Hotels, bars, boiler room scams, slavery, people smuggling, gem smuggling, drug smuggling, everything. Their wealth creation makes the politicians look like rank amateurs. Open your eyes man.