Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[aright]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

They will win either way, they control the flow of money, what do they care about leave or remain let the plebs ( for them that includes the politicians ) fight it out and then they adjust accordingly.

What's this "they" business; don't you mean "Germany will win either way because Germany controls the flow of money"

Call it like it is dear boy.

[transam]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Yet the reality is that there are more membership applications than applications to leave.

 

This "terminal decline" theory has been around for as long and has as much validity as the so called project fear.

More Oliver Twist's....?

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Yet the reality is that there are more membership applications than applications to leave.

Yes, how could we forget.

 

6 Countries, all in the top 10 poorest Countries of Europe.

 

The EC wants them signed up by 2025. Another 6 Net recipients, just what the EU needs.

 

That is going to go down well ??

Edited June 17, 2018 by The Renegade

[sandyf]

38 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Remind me where and when I said that ?

 

This is what I posted, taken directly from the UK Governments £9 Million Referendum leaflet

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Why are you lying ?

 

Or are you just another remainer that has problems reading and understanding plain English ? 

This was the point in question to which you responded with an opinion document.

 

"If you or anyone else can show where in the referendum act or any other legislation where it states that a vote to leave the EU would include leaving the SM and CU I am quite willing to stand corrected."

 

Your final comments are in breach of forum rules and should be retracted.

 

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

More Oliver Twist's....?

That subtle sarcasm was exquisite ?

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, aright said:

What's this "they" business; don't you mean "Germany will win either way because Germany controls the flow of money"

Call it like it is dear boy.

The super rich aren't confined to one country and they have no allegiance to their birth country, an American would sing the 'star bangled banner' while shorting the Dollar just as easily as a Rees Mogg would set up a firm in Ireland while saying brexit is good for the UK (and he isn't even super rich). Governments only seem to have power, they are told what to do.

[The Renegade]

8 minutes ago, sandyf said:

This was the point in question to which you responded with an opinion document.

 

"If you or anyone else can show where in the referendum act or any other legislation where it states that a vote to leave the EU would include leaving the SM and CU I am quite willing to stand corrected."

 

Your final comments are in breach of forum rules and should be retracted.

 

Yeah OK.

 

No need to look through a couple of forests.

 

There was a simple question on the Referendum paper, which had 2 options. Remain or Leave.

 

The Governments Referendum leaflet made it clear that only a remain vote would guarantee full access to the SM

 

Quote

The EU is by far the UK’s biggest trading partner. EU countries buy 44% of everything we sell abroad, from cars to insurance. Remaining inside the EU guarantees our full access to its Single Market. By contrast, leaving creates uncertainty and risk.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Blatant lying is also against forum rules, if you want to start that nonsense.

 

Quote

Since when did opinion documents become legislation.

Nowhere did I mention opinion documents or legislation.

Edited June 17, 2018 by The Renegade

[sandyf]

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Yes, how could we forget.

 

6 Countries, all in the top 10 poorest Countries of Europe.

 

The EC wants them signed up by 2025.

 

That is going to go down well ??

So you agree the original comment was flawed.

"as more and more voters in individual countries turn their backs on the ‘Federal  State of Europe’ dream,"

[transam]

6 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

That subtle sarcasm was exquisite ?

I wonder "who" will be Goooogling.....

[aright]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

No more than the other speculators here, do I think brexit will be a success ? No, GB is a muddle through country, she has been lucky in the past but luck runs out eventually and brexit is the mother of all muddles.

The EU has been lucky as well and the chickens are coming home to roost. Recent elections show the people have clocked the EU, they have been ignored and they realise the train will not stop and it only has one destination.

It is an economic reality that the way the Euro is currently set up is a major cause of the horrendous youth unemployment rates in the Mediterranean countries. A further reality is that the chief beneficiary of the current arrangement is Germany, Do the EU care? No the project means everything and young people just have to suffer on its alter. 

There is further grief in sight.....if Trump proceeds with his tariffs the German automobile industry and Germany itself will have serious economic difficulties   

 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So you agree the original comment was flawed.

"as more and more voters in individual countries turn their backs on the ‘Federal  State of Europe’ dream,"

What are you gibbering about ?

 

This is what I said.

 

12 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Yes, how could we forget.

 

6 Countries, all in the top 10 poorest Countries of Europe.

 

The EC wants them signed up by 2025. Another 6 Net recipients, just what the EU needs.

 

That is going to go down well ??

If I was poor I would want to join the EU also and hold my hands out for some lovely moolah.

 

That does not mean I would want a Federal State of Europe.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

I wonder "who" will be Goooogling.....

I will make it simple, no need to goooooogle ?

 

15 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Yes, how could we forget.

 

6 Countries, all in the top 10 poorest Countries of Europe.

 

The EC wants them signed up by 2025. Another 6 Net recipients, just what the EU needs.

 

That is going to go down well ??

 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

I will make it simple, no need to goooooogle ?

 

 

 

[sandyf]

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Yeah OK.

 

No need to look through a couple of forests.

 

There was a simple question on the Referendum paper, which had 2 options. Remain or Leave.

 

The Governments Referendum leaflet mad it clear that only a remain vote would guarantee

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Blatant lying is also against forum rules, if you want to start that nonsense.

 

Nowhere did I mention opinion documents or legislation.

I have not lied and neither have I said that you did , you made the accusation. 

You provided an opinion document in response to my point so at the end of the day it would appear that you cannot provide any legal basis for TM's decision to leave the single market and customs union. My original comment still stands.

 

"It should be noted that under this so called democratic process that there is no requirement for the UK to leave the single market or customs union, that is an interpretation made by TM and part of her government."

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It should be noted that under this so called democratic process that there is no requirement for the UK to leave the single market or customs union, that is an interpretation made by TM and part of her government."

Leave means Leave.

 

It does not mean leave but stay in the bits that we might like.

 

As for this '' So called democratic process '' that you speak so disparagingly about.

 

You might want to start here

 

 

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/europeanunionreferendum.html

 

Which was the 1st step in the '' Democratic Process ''

 

Have fun and get back to me in about 2 weeks, that is how long it will take you to wade through the '' Democratic Process '' if you give it your full and undivided attention.

 

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, aright said:

The EU has been lucky as well and the chickens are coming home to roost. Recent elections show the people have clocked the EU, they have been ignored and they realise the train will not stop and it only has one destination.

It is an economic reality that the way the Euro is currently set up is a major cause of the horrendous youth unemployment rates in the Mediterranean countries. A further reality is that the chief beneficiary of the current arrangement is Germany, Do the EU care? No the project means everything and young people just have to suffer on its alter. 

There is further grief in sight.....if Trump proceeds with his tariffs the German automobile industry and Germany itself will have serious economic difficulties   

 

BMW has its biggest factory in the USA as has Mercedes and both also produce in China.

Germany can't be blamed for producing goods people want. It wasn't foreseen that the Euro would be weaker than the DM in fact I can remember being told at the introduction of the Euro it would be as strong if not stronger than the DM (Germans loved their DM and were fearful of change), it wasn't and this worked to Germany's advantage.Other countries (the Southern lot) didn't do their homework, were pleased with a (for them) strong currency and spent and borrowed like a drunk on a binge. Germany, under Gerhard Schroeder (labour) rearranged Germany's finances at the peak of its industrial power to prepare for downturns (the firm I worked for also prepared accordingly) while an indebted Greece ordered new submarines (from Germany, should the manufacturers have said no,you can't afford it). Before the EU I can remember Germany standing as guarantor with their DM for Italy's oil imports, they weren't so scathing then nor did they buck up their ideas.

[Kieran00001]

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Leave means Leave.

 

It does not mean leave but stay in the bits that we might like.

 

As for this '' So called democratic process '' that you speak so disparagingly about.

 

You might want to start here

 

 

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/europeanunionreferendum.html

 

Which was the 1st step in the '' Democratic Process ''

 

Have fun and get back to me in about 2 weeks, that is how long it will take you to wade through the '' Democratic Process '' if you give it your full and undivided attention.

 

 

It better bloody mean stay in some bits, Leave promised again and again that leaving the EU would not mean leaving the customs union.  If that changes then we need another referendum, they can't add things later.

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

It better bloody mean stay in some bits,

Why ? Who are you ?

 

Going back as far as November 2016, Remainers have been trying everything to get the UK tied into the SM

 

Quote

The government is facing a legal battle over whether the UK stays inside the single market after it has left the EU, the BBC has learned.

 

Lawyers say uncertainty over the UK's European Economic Area membership means ministers could be stopped from taking Britain out of the single market.

 

They will argue the UK will not leave the EEA automatically when it leaves the EU and Parliament should decide.

 

But the government said EEA membership ends when the UK leaves the EU.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38126899

 

That got shot down

 

Quote

Two senior judges have blocked a legal challenge to the government’s strategy for leaving the single market and the European Economic Area.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/03/fresh-brexit-legal-challenge-blocked-high-court-article-127

 

Despite the hysterical rantings of remainers. Leave, does in fact, mean Leave.

Edited June 17, 2018 by The Renegade

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

It better bloody mean stay in some bits, Leave promised again and again that leaving the EU would not mean leaving the customs union.  If that changes then we need another referendum, they can't add things later.

pro EU Tories have warned May they will block Brexit. The way is being cleared for Javid to become PM at years end. Tax increase to pay for NHS increase in funding. Working out a treat isn't it.

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Why ? Who are you ?

 

Going back as far as November 2016, Remainers have been trying everything to get the UK tied into the SM

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38126899

 

That got shot down

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/03/fresh-brexit-legal-challenge-blocked-high-court-article-127

Despite the hysterical rantings of remainers. Leave, does in fact, mean Leave.

 

The Leave campaign repeatedly promised that leave did not mean leaving the single market.

Quote

“Our trade will almost certainly continue with the EU on similar to current circumstances…The reality is that the hard-headed, pragmatic businessmen on the continent will do everything to ensure that trade with Britain continues uninterrupted.” David Davis, speech, 26 May 2016

 

“The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave”. Vote Leave, What Happens When We Vote Leave?

 

“there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market”, Boris Johnson, The Telegraph, 26 June 2016

 

[aright]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

BMW has its biggest factory in the USA as has Mercedes and both also produce in China.

Germany can't be blamed for producing goods people want.

Of course they can't and of course Germany's car industry can build further factories in the USA and China which will benefit those economies but what are Germany's jobless going to say about that?

 

 

"Exports equal 46pc of GDP in Germany, but only 12pc in the US. “Further punitive tariffs on cars from Trump would do massive damage to the German economy,” said Hans Gersbach from the German economy ministry. Roughly 850,000 jobs in Germany depend on the car industry. An eighth of all jobs are linked to the sector in one way or another.

The difficulty is that Brussels cannot wave tariffs on US cars alone even if it wants to. The EU has to extend the same zero rates to China, India, and emerging Asia to be compliant with World Trade Organisation rules."

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Why ? Who are you ?

 

Going back as far as November 2016, Remainers have been trying everything to get the UK tied into the SM

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38126899

 

That got shot down

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/03/fresh-brexit-legal-challenge-blocked-high-court-article-127

 

Despite the hysterical rantings of remainers. Leave, does in fact, mean Leave.

“Despite the hysterical rantings of remainers. Leave, does in fact, mean Leave.”

 

And yet the Government is doing all it can to ‘leave’ in name only, while even the Brexiteer’s darling Rees-Mogg is talking publicly of a ten year interim period.

 

That he is privately telling investors in his hedge fund of the risks of Brexit to their wealth ought to give ‘the common man’ food for thought.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

“there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market”, Boris Johnson, The Telegraph, 26 June 2016

This might be difficult for you but try and understand what Johnson is actually saying.

 

Continue to be free trade - This is mutually beneficial.

 

Access to the Single Market - This does not mean a member of the Single Market.

 

Which ties in with what TM said in June 2017

 

Quote

What the UK wants: Mrs May says the UK will not accept the free movement of people - and will withdraw from the single market. In its place, she wants to draw up a comprehensive free trade deal with the EU.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37507129

 

The EU / Barnier are fighting this because, to put it bluntly, they need the UK's money to keep flowing into the coffers of Brussels.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“Despite the hysterical rantings of remainers. Leave, does in fact, mean Leave.”

 

And yet the Government is doing all it can to ‘leave’ in name only, while even the Brexiteer’s darling Rees-Mogg is talking publicly of a ten year interim period.

 

That he is privately telling investors in his hedge fund of the risks of Brexit to their wealth ought to give ‘the common man’ food for thought.

That is about the 10th time you have posted this.

 

Here is an idea.

 

Go and take it up with Rees - Mogg or better still, go and invest with with his hedge fund. If you have not already done so, ask yourself why because with all your ranting about it, it must be a shoo - in.

[Orac]

After the referendum even the majority of leavers expected us to stay in the SM.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, Orac said:

After the referendum even the majority of leavers expected us to stay in the SM.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

You would at least hope that some of them had listed to the Leave campaign, and anyone who did would have been left with the impression that we were definitely staying in the Single Market as they promised us we would be again and again.  It is only since it has come down to the negotiations that it turns out to not be that simple and leaving might mean also leaving the markets, in which case we need another referendum on that deal, it is only fair if they cannot keep every promise made in their campaign.

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

It better bloody mean stay in some bits, Leave promised again and again that leaving the EU would not mean leaving the customs union.  If that changes then we need another referendum, they can't add things later.

Don’t be mistaken that the rants of Brexit zealots here on TVF have any bearing on the outcome of Brexit.

 

Nobody voted for job losses or to be poorer, something that will become more of an issue nas the final deal comes into sight.

 

(I quoted your whole comment because I didn’t have to cut out bits I didn’t agree wit ?

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

That is about the 10th time you have posted this.

 

Here is an idea.

 

Go and take it up with Rees - Mogg or better still, go and invest with with his hedge fund. If you have not already done so, ask yourself why because with all your ranting about it, it must be a shoo - in.

Please, if you can repeatedly refer to the catchphrases of the Brexit campaign, I’m sure I can repeatedly refer to the actions and the words of the politicians at the forefront of the Brexit process.

 

If you don’t like the government diluting the Brexit you presumably voted for, take it up with the government.

 

If you don’t like being reminded Rees Mogg is talking about a ten year interim period, rake it up with Rees-Mogg.

 

If Rees-Mogg warning investors in his hedge fund doesn’t raise any questions for you, we’ll take that up later after Brexit.

 

But I’ll repeat these things as often as I believe they deserve airing.

 

A bit like the repetitive call ‘Leave means leave’.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

47 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Leave means Leave.

 

It does not mean leave but stay in the bits that we might like.

 

As for this '' So called democratic process '' that you speak so disparagingly about.

 

You might want to start here

 

 

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/europeanunionreferendum.html

 

Which was the 1st step in the '' Democratic Process ''

 

Have fun and get back to me in about 2 weeks, that is how long it will take you to wade through the '' Democratic Process '' if you give it your full and undivided attention.

 

I’m delighted to read your spirited defence of ‘the democratic process’.

 

It’s precisely that ‘a process’ it did not come to a shuddering halt on referendum day.

 

The democratic process continues, reflecting changes in public mood and understanding.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Of course they can't and of course Germany's car industry can build further factories in the USA and China which will benefit those economies but what are Germany's jobless going to say about that?

 

 

"Exports equal 46pc of GDP in Germany, but only 12pc in the US. “Further punitive tariffs on cars from Trump would do massive damage to the German economy,” said Hans Gersbach from the German economy ministry. Roughly 850,000 jobs in Germany depend on the car industry. An eighth of all jobs are linked to the sector in one way or another.

The difficulty is that Brussels cannot wave tariffs on US cars alone even if it wants to. The EU has to extend the same zero rates to China, India, and emerging Asia to be compliant with World Trade Organisation rules."

America isn't the only market in the world and Germany's car factories are highly automated, if you walk into an engine making plant you have to look for workers. Yes it could be difficult but anyone who can afford a high end BMW or Mercedes won't be put off by a higher price and the 'normal' model buyers are buying a product already made in the USA anyway. It hasn't come to this yet, Trump, not the EU, has invited for talks over tariff's with Europe, 

http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/05/investing/trump-tariffs-european-cars/index.html

This won't be as easy as he thinks anyway.