Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[Grouse]

21 minutes ago, aright said:

Didn't Volkwagen  clearly know something about diesel emissions violations but forgot to tell the general public.

Half a million vehicles recalled as I recall. So much for "they" clearly knowing

 

Last year suspicion of diesels emissions cheating on two Mercedes Benz engines resulted in Daimler executives being summoned to meet government officials in Berlin. Almost 3 million vans and cars recalled.

 

So much for believing directors. I think we know where the naivete lies

I think we have already established that your, er, expertise on this matter is sadly lacking. Don't tell me I have to explain it all again.

[aright]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think we have already established that your, er, expertise on this matter is sadly lacking. Don't tell me I have to explain it all again.

I think the only thing we established was that I and the two manufacturers didn't agree with your contention, hypothesis, theory , dissertation call it what you want.

Were Volks and Merc crazy to recall 3.5 million vehicles? It wasn't necessary, they could have saved a lot of money by consulting with you first. I wonder why they didn't?

It's McClaren Vale Reisling time. Don't bother me!

Edited July 5, 2018 by aright

[bristolboy]

42 minutes ago, aright said:

Didn't Volkwagen  clearly know something about diesel emissions violations but forgot to tell the general public.

Half a million vehicles recalled as I recall. So much for "they" clearly knowing

 

Last year suspicion of diesels emissions cheating on two Mercedes Benz engines resulted in Daimler executives being summoned to meet government officials in Berlin. Almost 3 million vans and cars recalled.

 

So much for believing directors. I think we know where the naivete lies

And what in God's name does Volkswagen have to do with this? I know Brexiters are fond of evoking Germany's WW2 transgressions at the slightest provocation. But I got news for you. Tata is an Indian company. And Indian soldiers overwhelmingly fought and died on the side of the UK. For what this is worth, which in the present context is nothing.  But lets indulge your flight from reality and concede that yes Volkswagen was lying about diesel emissions and it's somehow relevant. What has that got to do with supply chains? The whole automotive world now works this way. Parts manufactured in one plant get shipped to another. That part is somehow modified. It gets shipped somewhere else. Parts may cross national borders several times. Once again, the whole automotive world now works this way.. Except to your way of thinking, Volkswagen. Volkswagen alone does not rely on supply chains because they're such a bad idea. Such a bad idea that every major automotive manufacturer uses them. And your evidence? They lied about diesel emissions. Really?  And once again what makes your comment even more bizarre is that Tata owns Land Rover/Jaguar.  Are you saying that because Volkswagen lied about diesel emissions, therefore Tata is lying about supply chains? Seriously?

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Seems like Jersey gets on satisfactorily with the agreement it has with the EU. But I'll cherry-pick just one of the above which seems to me to be a major Brexit misunderstanding by leavers - i.e. striking trade deals independently. Apart from facing competition from the EU (which has a far greater consumer market clout than the UK) it could take YEARS to implement just one trade agreement from scratch.

 

With the USA it could take 3 years to implement an agreement, see link below. In other words, the UK cannot just go shopping and buy a trade agreement within days, weeks or months. And we would have to renegotiate deals with 30 or so countries we already have deals with by virtue of being in the EU. 

 

Here is one link that provides an insight: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/how-long-do-trade-deals-take-after-brexit/  

 

One reason the UK government is attempting to renegotiate a trade deal with the EU before exiting.  

 

 

 

I don't expect trade deals to be executed overnight. It's about taking control of our own destiny rather that doing everything at the behest of Brussels' finest bureaucrats

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

I notice that you miss out the most important issues.

 

I think a deal on "controlled free movement" can be achieved.

 

What EU regs do you wish to drop?

 

How would you like to see CAP change? It has already changed significantly and our farmers do well and produce well

 

I don't eat much fish

It's about having our own regulations and policies, not those imposed on us. We may not need to change many/any EU regs that were rolled into UK law, but it would be the UK's decision after Brexit. The same goes for CAP and CFP.

[Basil B]

Tory Chief whip gets a ear bashing from 50 hard line Brexiters, maybe time for the other 266 to speak up...

 

One thing for sure Teresa needs to decide on what direction she wants Brexit to go and have a cabinet clear-out so as to have a united government...

[aright]

54 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And what in God's name does Volkswagen have to do with this? I know Brexiters are fond of evoking Germany's WW2 transgressions at the slightest provocation. But I got news for you. Tata is an Indian company. And Indian soldiers overwhelmingly fought and died on the side of the UK. For what this is worth, which in the present context is nothing.  But lets indulge your flight from reality and concede that yes Volkswagen was lying about diesel emissions and it's somehow relevant. What has that got to do with supply chains? The whole automotive world now works this way. Parts manufactured in one plant get shipped to another. That part is somehow modified. It gets shipped somewhere else. Parts may cross national borders several times. Once again, the whole automotive world now works this way.. Except to your way of thinking, Volkswagen. Volkswagen alone does not rely on supply chains because they're such a bad idea. Such a bad idea that every major automotive manufacturer uses them. And your evidence? They lied about diesel emissions. Really?  And once again what makes your comment even more bizarre is that Tata owns Land Rover/Jaguar.  Are you saying that because Volkswagen lied about diesel emissions, therefore Tata is lying about supply chains? Seriously?

I made no reference to WW2, Volks supply chains or Tata or them owning LRJ.  Try rereading and understanding and putting more water with it.

 

 

 

[tomacht8]

10 hours ago, The Renegade said:

- Snip -

Ace of free to trade how and with who we please - Commencing 29 March 2019

LOL

From a continental perspective, 54.4% of UK exports by value were delivered to other European trade partners while 22.6% were sold to Asian importers. United Kingdom shipped another 15% worth to North America.
Smaller percentages arrived in Africa (2.5%), Oceania led by Australia and New Zealand (1.6%) and Latin America excluding Mexico but including the Caribbean (1.4%).

 

So over 50% export trade with the EU. Where is the new trade deal?
Obviously, the UK is not yet in a position to place a new trade deal here. That is certainly due to the stupid EU bureaucrats. What a miracle.

No problem. That leaves Asia with over 20%. Especially with China. Since you can buy there cheap

t-shirts, drug copies and electrically fully secure appliances.

Hopefully the Uk will not try to export this garbage further into the EU via dark channels. Understandably, the EU needs here a clear border with strict controls.

No problem. North America still has 15%. Signing new contracts with toddler Trump is like walking in the park. Since the Uk can already look forward to the healthy and genetically manipulated food,

and the newest NSA spy software.

 

Which new trade deals are currently in the pipeline?
What trade should be done in the future? With whom exactly?

 

Or is this still a secret?

Edited July 5, 2018 by tomacht8

[kwilco]

The fact is that whatever way you look at it Brexit will have a negative impact on the UK.

.it's like voting for a flat earth....it doesn't matter if the majority is 4 % or a respectable 2 thirds....the earth is still around.

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don't expect trade deals to be executed overnight. It's about taking control of our own destiny rather that doing everything at the behest of Brussels' finest bureaucrats

I'd love to hear your idea of what that "Destiny" might be.

[tebee]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don't expect trade deals to be executed overnight. It's about taking control of our own destiny rather that doing everything at the behest of Brussels' finest bureaucrats

It's one of the great misconceptions of this whole thing anyway - trade deals are not that important!

 

Firstly they don't deal with services - 80% of the UK's GDP comes from services now.

 

Secondly, it's non-tariff barriers that restrict trade these days to a large extent.

 

What does help is the mutual recognition of standards and that comes from being part of the single market.

 

Any solution that does not involve us being part of the single market wil damage out economy.

[tomacht8]

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

The fact is that whatever way you look at it Brexit will have a negative impact on the UK.

.it's like voting for a flat earth....it doesn't matter if the majority is 4 % or a respectable 2 thirds....the earth is still around.

 

16 minutes ago, kwilco said:

The fact is that whatever way you look at it Brexit will have a negative impact on the UK.

.it's like voting for a flat earth....it doesn't matter if the majority is 4 % or a respectable 2 thirds....the earth is still around.

Nice analogy.
Well, even the ultra hardcore brexiteers are now admitted that the earth is not quite flat. The exit date 29.3.2019 is known.
But if you ask what is going to happen after that, there is only hot air.

[tebee]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

It's about having our own regulations and policies, not those imposed on us. We may not need to change many/any EU regs that were rolled into UK law, but it would be the UK's decision after Brexit. The same goes for CAP and CFP.

North Korea has it's own regulations and policies - doesn't it do well ?

[bristolboy]

23 minutes ago, tebee said:

It's one of the great misconceptions of this whole thing anyway - trade deals are not that important!

 

Firstly they don't deal with services - 80% of the UK's GDP comes from services now.

 

Secondly, it's non-tariff barriers that restrict trade these days to a large extent.

 

What does help is the mutual recognition of standards and that comes from being part of the single market.

 

Any solution that does not involve us being part of the single market wil damage out economy.

I thought that financial services were covered.I know that the EU most likely will make it a lot more difficult for London based financial houses to provide those services to EU members. Am I missing something?

 

"Theresa May’s new plan for future relations with the EU will be “dead on arrival”, senior figures in Brussels have told The Independent. 

EU officials said any hint that the UK wants to be part of the single market on goods, but not services will be rejected.

 

It is a blow for the prime minister who has spent the last week in meetings with EU leaders, including Angela Merkel, in a bid to prevent Europe dismissing her plans out of hand when they are published next week."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-uk-customs-plan-dead-on-arrival-eu-trade-tariffs-theresa-may-a8433041.html

Edited July 5, 2018 by bristolboy

[tebee]

2 hours ago, bristolboy said:

I thought that financial services were covered.I know that the EU most likely will make it a lot more difficult for London based financial houses to provide those services to EU members. Am I missing something?

 

"Theresa May’s new plan for future relations with the EU will be “dead on arrival”, senior figures in Brussels have told The Independent. 

EU officials said any hint that the UK wants to be part of the single market on goods, but not services will be rejected.

 

It is a blow for the prime minister who has spent the last week in meetings with EU leaders, including Angela Merkel, in a bid to prevent Europe dismissing her plans out of hand when they are published next week."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-uk-customs-plan-dead-on-arrival-eu-trade-tariffs-theresa-may-a8433041.html

Normally trade agreements don't cover financial services - the recent Canada/EU didn't - but they can be extended to cover them if both parties agree.

 

WTO has some very limited provisions for financial services too - but not that useful in real terms.  

 

If you have time to waste and don't mind getting a headache read this useful summary

 

 http://www.blplaw.com/media/download/Brexit_WTO_Brochure.pdf

[The Renegade]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

North Korea has it's own regulations and policies - doesn't it do well ?

Are you really that scared ? Trying to make comparisons between North Korea and the UK takes stupidity to a whole new level.

 

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Any solution that does not involve us being part of the single market wil damage out economy.

Any solution that means the UK stays in the Single Market is not leaving the EU.

 

Why are you so worried about the UK economy ? I thought you lived between France and Thailand ?

 

For someone who claims to live on half the French Minimum Wage, you have far more to worry about than the UK economy.

 

Perhaps it might be an idea to stop hunting the internet for anything that appears to be doom & gloom that is Brexit related and sort out your own economics.

 

[tebee]

The UK needs a solution that addresses the NI issue along with one that protects UK business and that was always going to require a degree of harmonisation. That is the way the world works. Pretending it can be done by other means is dishonest to the core. If Brexiters wanted a different outcome then they should have set out a plan - but they refused to do so - so they can't complain about the destination. Instead they've spent the last two years lying through their teeth, massaging the narrative that we can trade on WTO rules.

 

What we are seeing is now is a childish tantrum from people who refused to engage in the issues. They sidelined themselves. Brexit is complex with adult issues to attend to and if they play silly buggers then they can't expect to be taken seriously. As it happens, May's Brexit plan is a total abortion and will be rejected by the EU. Everybody knows that so what we are actually seeing is faux indignation - pretending the proposal is a betrayal so when it is rejected they can further massage the EU intransigence narrative.

 

Ultimately the choice comes down to an FTA or the EEA which May will have to face up to sooner or later. An FTA means a wet border and the weakening of the union. No PM can sign up to that so it has to be the EEA.

 

So it's really EEA or no deal. We can leave with an amicable comprehensive relationship that safeguards jobs or one that leaves everybody in the shit and sours European relations for decades. So Brexiters have to decide if they are going to be adults or spoiled children. Having refused to specify a Brexit vision, having complained about every single option, wanting their cake and to eat it, there is no possibility of constructive engagement so May might as well ignore them. The EEA is in the national interest and the majority will wear it.

 

They will trot out the line that it betrays the vote of 17m people but they don't speak for me. I voted to leave the EU. That does not extend a mandate to the far economic right to enact their brand of disaster capitalism. It couldn't win an election. It's profoundly dishonest to pretend that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to end all formal relations with the EU and even more dishonest to say that the public will not accept a compromise. There was never going to be a consequence free Brexit. The public knows that. It's profoundly dishonest to pretend that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to end all formal relations with the EU and even more dishonest to say that the public will not accept a compromise. There was never going to be a consequence free Brexit. The public knows that.

[The Renegade]

Great copy and paste job tebee. Who wrote that for you ? ??

 

It also appears that many of your comments are not actually comments but copy and paste jobs with no link as to the source or where this information comes from.

 

This is normally the handiwork of a paid troll.

 

Is this you posting in theTelegraph ?

 

Quote

Alan Hester 6 Jul 2018 5:22AM

 

@jon jack @Maximo Reed

 

Borris ?

Only ever seen Boris written with 2 '' R's '' twice, by you and this Alan Hester.

 

Surprise, surprise, it is also on a Brexit related article.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/05/analysis-theresa-mays-brexit-plan-leaving-eurosceptics-incandescent/

Edited July 6, 2018 by The Renegade

[Eloquent pilgrim]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

.it's like voting for a flat earth....it doesn't matter if the majority is 4 % or a respectable 2 thirds....the earth is still around.

I assume you meant round, not around. However, not a particularly good analogy; the earth is not round, it is an oblate spheroid, meaning that the distance from the earth's centre to sea level is roughly 21 kilometres greater at the equator than at the north and south poles.

[tebee]

28 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Are you really that scared ? Trying to make comparisons between North Korea and the UK takes stupidity to a whole new level.

 

 

I'm merely pointing out that any trade agreement - or indeed the act of trade itself - means that a country must relinquish  some of it's control over its own policies and regulations to others. Only countries like North Korea don't have to do that 

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

I'm merely pointing out that any trade agreement - or indeed the act of trade itself - means that a country must relinquish  some of it's control over its own policies and regulations to others. Only countries like North Korea don't have to do that 

Were you really ?

 

It certainly looked to me that you were getting hysterical and trying to compare North Korea to the UK.

 

Or are you trying to say that every other Country in the World that is not in the Single Market can also be compared to North Korea ?

[Chomper Higgot]

Getting back to topic.

 

It’s Friday, PM Theresa May has promised that she shall by next week  deliver the UK’s negotiating position as a white paper.

 

She and her hand picked Cabinet are heading off to Chequers today to somehow miraculously deliver what they’ve been unable to even find over the past two years.

 

Brexiteers here on TVF are once again resorting to all manner of diversions and off-topic posts but they can’t escape the fact the U.K. government has no agreement on a way forward.

 

It’s Brexit make or break time.

 

What an utter shambles.

[Chomper Higgot]

38 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Are you really that scared ? Trying to make comparisons between North Korea and the UK takes stupidity to a whole new level.

 

Any solution that means the UK stays in the Single Market is not leaving the EU.

 

Why are you so worried about the UK economy ? I thought you lived between France and Thailand ?

 

For someone who claims to live on half the French Minimum Wage, you have far more to worry about than the UK economy.

 

Perhaps it might be an idea to stop hunting the internet for anything that appears to be doom & gloom that is Brexit related and sort out your own economics.

 

Perhaps Brexiteers can hunt around the internet and find the U.K. negotiating position, the government seem to have misplaced it.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

33 minutes ago, tebee said:

The UK needs a solution that addresses the NI issue along with one that protects UK business and that was always going to require a degree of harmonisation. That is the way the world works. Pretending it can be done by other means is dishonest to the core. If Brexiters wanted a different outcome then they should have set out a plan - but they refused to do so - so they can't complain about the destination. Instead they've spent the last two years lying through their teeth, massaging the narrative that we can trade on WTO rules.

 

What we are seeing is now is a childish tantrum from people who refused to engage in the issues. They sidelined themselves. Brexit is complex with adult issues to attend to and if they play silly buggers then they can't expect to be taken seriously. As it happens, May's Brexit plan is a total abortion and will be rejected by the EU. Everybody knows that so what we are actually seeing is faux indignation - pretending the proposal is a betrayal so when it is rejected they can further massage the EU intransigence narrative.

 

Ultimately the choice comes down to an FTA or the EEA which May will have to face up to sooner or later. An FTA means a wet border and the weakening of the union. No PM can sign up to that so it has to be the EEA.

 

So it's really EEA or no deal. We can leave with an amicable comprehensive relationship that safeguards jobs or one that leaves everybody in the shit and sours European relations for decades. So Brexiters have to decide if they are going to be adults or spoiled children. Having refused to specify a Brexit vision, having complained about every single option, wanting their cake and to eat it, there is no possibility of constructive engagement so May might as well ignore them. The EEA is in the national interest and the majority will wear it.

 

They will trot out the line that it betrays the vote of 17m people but they don't speak for me. I voted to leave the EU. That does not extend a mandate to the far economic right to enact their brand of disaster capitalism. It couldn't win an election. It's profoundly dishonest to pretend that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to end all formal relations with the EU and even more dishonest to say that the public will not accept a compromise. There was never going to be a consequence free Brexit. The public knows that. It's profoundly dishonest to pretend that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to end all formal relations with the EU and even more dishonest to say that the public will not accept a compromise. There was never going to be a consequence free Brexit. The public knows that.

tebee, whose words are these please, they are not yours, so please name your source(s)

 

You should also be more careful when you copy and paste, you have repeated a couple of sentences at the end of your post

 

 

***It’s profoundly dishonest to pretend that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to end all formal relations with the EU and even more dishonest to say that the public will not accept a compromise. There was never going to be a consequence free Brexit. The public knows that***     *** It's profoundly dishonest to pretend that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to end all formal relations with the EU and even more dishonest to say that the public will not accept a compromise. There was never going to be a consequence free Brexit. The public knows that ***

[tebee]

34 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

.....

 

Any solution that means the UK stays in the Single Market is not leaving the EU.

 

......

 

OK so you consider it your priority to leave the EU completely even though  it will damage the economy and cause countless people to lose their  jobs ? That is your prerogative, but I find it heartless and unthinking. It really does remind me of a religious cult  where the tenets must be upheld no matter what consequences.

 

Brexit was always going to mean either:

 

1. 3rd party relationship and the restructuring of large sections of the U.K. economy, or

2. Integrated relationship and the blurring (at best) of the red lines

 

The  first has a cost - I think that cost is too much for the benefit  

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Were you really ?

 

It certainly looked to me that you were getting hysterical and trying to compare North Korea to the UK.

 

Or are you trying to say that every other Country in the World that is not in the Single Market can also be compared to North Korea ?

The strawman arguments are out in full today, I see. Is it nerves?

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Getting back to topic.

 

It’s Friday, PM Theresa May has promised that she shall by next week  deliver the UK’s negotiating position as a white paper.

 

She and her hand picked Cabinet are heading off to Chequers today to somehow miraculously deliver what they’ve been unable to even find over the past two years.

 

Brexiteers here on TVF are once again resorting to all manner of diversions and off-topic posts but they can’t escape the fact the U.K. government has no agreement on a way forward.

 

It’s Brexit make or break time.

 

What an utter shambles.

According to Laura Kunssberg, all electronic gadgets are to be removed from all ministers upon arrival at Chequers. The PM cannot trust her own cabinet - madness!

[stephenterry]

10 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don't expect trade deals to be executed overnight. It's about taking control of our own destiny rather that doing everything at the behest of Brussels' finest bureaucrats

Trade deals won't be executed overnight - that's the problem with taking over our own destiny (whatever that is in practice). And in the 3 year waiting period before fluorinated chickens arrive from the USA to fill up the decimated supermarket shelves, I suppose we can all eat North Sea fish all day.

 

But the main question you should ask your mirror when talking about taking control over our own destiny, is whether the current Tory government can actually carry out what is needed to implement it? I'm pretty sure that any reasonable mirror would not be able to answer in the affirmative based on the shambles currently dividing the cabinet.

 

Fresh cod today, guys? It is Friday.   

[The Renegade]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The strawman arguments are out in full today, I see. Is it nerves?

???

 

When remainers appear like flies attacking fresh dung. They are the ones that are nervous ??

 

May's ousting to start and a '' Brexit means Brexit '' PM installed 

 

You need a list or can you hear them buzzing around ? 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The strawman arguments are out in full today, I see. Is it nerves?

The Brexiteers in this discussion have a single game play ‘distraction’.

 

The cards they play are:

Off topic post

Questions to elicit off-topic responses.

Personal challenges to elicit off-topic bickering.

 

 

The answer to this is, don’t play their game. Stick to topic.

 

The PM has not at this late stage agreed the U.K.s negotiating position, she personally admits as much and she promises to deliver it this next week.

 

It’s this utter shambles that Brexiteers wish to distract from.

 

They voted for this, nail them on it.

 

Don’t get distracted!

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Chomper Higgot