Another change for U.S. Citizens.

[pizzachang]

On 9/4/2018 at 12:45 PM, Time Traveller said:

I don't quite understand this issue about proof of income. It's seems strange thai immigration are asking this, since the definition of income in USA is different from the definition of income in Thailand - they have different tax codes .

 

Example, according to the IRS, selling shares with capital gains in the US is income. But in Thai tax law it is not income. Accordingly for Americans with investments, they can almost manipulate their income to appear however they want it - by realizing losses or gains to minimize taxable income for any particular year  - hence the reason this request of "proof of income" is pointless. (In fact, taxation of capital gains is pointless as well due to offsetting loses against gains, hopefully the IRS will someday agree!) 

 

I don't even understand the "need" to have funds in a Thai bank. Electronically speaking, it's all the same and I can access money at any time. Just showing that you have the required monthly amount should (logically) be sufficient.

[Dante99]

1 hour ago, pizzachang said:

I just showed them my 1099's from SS and State of Alaska DRB. I've already prepared for my next extension by collecting my past 1099's, the notices informing me of retirement bennies and SS and I'll also download 3 or 6 months deposit statements from my bank in the US. Easy and maybe we won't need the Consulate's affidavit, saving $50. 

Many thanks.  Good clear confirmation that US financial documents are accepted at CM Immigration.  Or at least some of them are, nice to know they understand the 1099s.

[NancyL]

Something tells me Imm. will still want to see the $50 document from the Consulate, in addition to all your back-up documentation.  It will be interesting to get a report from someone who decides to skip the Consulate letter.

[silverhawk_usa]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

Something tells me Imm. will still want to see the $50 document from the Consulate, in addition to all your back-up documentation.  It will be interesting to get a report from someone who decides to skip the Consulate letter.

These were my thoughts also.  If we show legitimate proof from our financial source, why do we need the Consulate letter.  I hope this works out and we get accurate reports.

[Jingthing]

I bet it doesn't work without embassy/consulate income letter.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Nowisee]

Immigration would be wise to come up with some standardized document requirements to show proof of income.  
There's probably a good reason why the consulate does not require US citizens showing proof to get the affidavit.  How can they possibly authenticate/verify each one?   How can immigration do it?  
Forensic accounting is not their strong point.  

Edited September 8, 2018 by Nowisee

[happyme]

What I understand may be wrong but they now require up to date bank statement from a thai Bank showing 800,000Bt or the monthly payment  received in you bank account  

[Dante99]

11 minutes ago, happyme said:

What I understand may be wrong but they now require up to date bank statement from a thai Bank showing 800,000Bt or the monthly payment  received in you bank account  

Post #361 states actual experience which is contrary to what you state.

[silverhawk_usa]

16 hours ago, Nowisee said:

Immigration would be wise to come up with some standardized document requirements to show proof of income.  
There's probably a good reason why the consulate does not require US citizens showing proof to get the affidavit.  How can they possibly authenticate/verify each one?   How can immigration do it?  
Forensic accounting is not their strong point.  

I have posted about this, in length, before.  So here is as simple as I can explain it.....the U.S. Consulate is only accepting your sworn statement of what you state under oath as your income,  and notarizing the affidavit. To make a false statement can result in prosecution.  They are not in anyway guaranteeing your income amount and probably never will.

[moontang]

The letter is a cash cow for the Consulate...the whole thing developed into a quid pro quo arrangement, rife with dishonesty.  I think an MFA stamp requirement on the letter is more likely than them doing away with it.  Also, the real deal breaker will be when they require proof of the money coming into Thailand, which they might after someone points out how easy it is to do tax forms and 1099s...It is often more difficult to cheat the cheaters...

[jmd8800]

2 minutes ago, moontang said:

The letter is a cash cow for the Consulate...the whole thing developed into a quid pro quo arrangement, rife with dishonesty.  I think an MFA stamp requirement on the letter is more likely than them doing away with it.  Also, the real deal breaker will be when they require proof of the money coming into Thailand, which they might after someone points out how easy it is to do tax forms and 1099s...It is often more difficult to cheat the cheaters...

1) US consulate notary services are global. The flat fee of 50USD is charged regardless of where you are. Notary services extend to a broad range of things to help US citizens living abroad. Real estate transactions, wills... the list goes on.

 

2) There is no requirement for you to transfer a specific amount into Thailand. The requirement is only to show that you generate a specific amount of income. I don't know how many times UbonJoe and others have shown the wording of Thai Imm policies concerning this.

[moontang]

still a cash cow that wont go away.....he has posted wording on TM30, too, and it is different at every office.  Same with MFA stamp.  "supporting documentation" could mean anything.  The policy may not state that you have to show it, but they also can deny someone fishy, just like the Consulate can refuse to notarize based on their gut feeling.  So many have lived their lives check to check..but kind of like a functional alcoholic; it may work in the near term, but is not the best plan in the long term....

[jmd8800]

Speaking of planning in the long term: Maybe the Thai government should implement a system where the retiree / long stay people put a fixed amount of 800,000THB into a bank account (private or government) as a bond. In exchange there could be some upsides:

 

1) As long as that person keeps the required amount in the bank they would be granted permission to stay as long as they don't break any laws where would be considered deportable. Just register once a year by mail ... maybe even do away with 90 day reports.

 

   a) I personally would not buy a condo (or other investment) when being granted permission to stay for no more than 1 year at a time.

 

2) the money could be used to pay hospital bills or other costs incurred or even buy the person a plane ticket home if being deported.

 

3) It would be almost impossible for the Thai gov't to make a list of approved health insurance policies and this would help address the problem of expats unable to pay their bills.

 

I'm sure this will rile some feathers here. Talk among yourselves.

 

 

 

 

[amexpat]

31 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

a) I personally would not buy a condo (or other investment) when being granted permission to stay for no more than 1 year at a time.

But an 800,000 baht bond is ok.  

Thai govt requiring and recommending health insurance companies (and their agents). What could go wrong?

[moontang]

45 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

Speaking of planning in the long term: Maybe the Thai government should implement a system where the retiree / long stay people put a fixed amount of 800,000THB into a bank account (private or government) as a bond. In exchange there could be some upsides:

 

1) As long as that person keeps the required amount in the bank they would be granted permission to stay as long as they don't break any laws where would be considered deportable. Just register once a year by mail ... maybe even do away with 90 day reports.

 

   a) I personally would not buy a condo (or other investment) when being granted permission to stay for no more than 1 year at a time.

 

2) the money could be used to pay hospital bills or other costs incurred or even buy the person a plane ticket home if being deported.

 

3) It would be almost impossible for the Thai gov't to make a list of approved health insurance policies and this would help address the problem of expats unable to pay their bills.

 

I'm sure this will rile some feathers here. Talk among yourselves.

 

 

 

 

The EU approves mandatory insurance policies for visitors, Thailand could adopt the same list of insurers..Shengen Letter...I can get it with one click.

[MamaSan]

On 9/7/2018 at 9:52 AM, NancyL said:

Something tells me Imm. will still want to see the $50 document from the Consulate, in addition to all your back-up documentation.  It will be interesting to get a report from someone who decides to skip the Consulate letter.

After simply (but elegantly) presenting back-up documentation alone, I was told to go back to get a Consulate letter.  'Asked if the letter would have been enough but answer was no - need back-up.  'Asked if I need the letter, do I need the back-up?  Answer was yes. The "reasoning" seemed a bit cirtuitous...

[Dante99]

22 minutes ago, MamaSan said:

After simply (but elegantly) presenting back-up documentation alone, I was told to go back to get a Consulate letter.  'Asked if the letter would have been enough but answer was no - need back-up.  'Asked if I need the letter, do I need the back-up?  Answer was yes. The "reasoning" seemed a bit cirtuitous...

Not really.

 

They want your ass for false statement to US government if you are pulling one so they want the letter.  The letter strengthens the case.  But since the Consul will not check back up, they want that too.

 

Thanks for the report providing useful information. 

[jmd8800]

2 hours ago, MamaSan said:

After simply (but elegantly) presenting back-up documentation alone, I was told to go back to get a Consulate letter.  'Asked if the letter would have been enough but answer was no - need back-up.  'Asked if I need the letter, do I need the back-up?  Answer was yes. The "reasoning" seemed a bit cirtuitous...

Thanks for the info!

[happyme]

11 hours ago, MamaSan said:

After simply (but elegantly) presenting back-up documentation alone, I was told to go back to get a Consulate letter.  'Asked if the letter would have been enough but answer was no - need back-up.  'Asked if I need the letter, do I need the back-up?  Answer was yes. The "reasoning" seemed a bit cirtuitous...

They want to see you have cash in Thailand

 

[chingmai331]

How does a letter from the consulate qualify as having 'cash in thailand'?  I've got the USA ATM card; good enough for me.

[pizzachang]

20 hours ago, moontang said:

, rife with dishonesty.

I think this is just speculation.  I seriously doubt that mass American retirees are dishonest about their Social Security and or other retirement benefits.  The comment I heard in person about my two pensions was telling....."I wonder why farangs get so much retirement.?  Compared to Thailand, I understand but a minimal retirement pension in the USA is more than enough to live on in Thailand and easily provable. No need to be dishonest, unless someone is trying to hide the source of their income.

[sometimewoodworker]

On 8/23/2018 at 10:18 PM, moontang said:

seeing the actual monthly transfers would be the big deal breaker.  Easy enough to show 65000 per month into a US account...but who really wants or needs to transfer that much money over every month.  I know people that can show it in rental income, but they seem to leave out that mortgages and taxes take back 80% of it.

That's irrelevant as the requirement is 65000  income not 65000 after expenses.

[sometimewoodworker]

42 minutes ago, happyme said:

They want to see you have cash in Thailand

 

No they don't, if on the income method.

 

Yes if money in the bank.

[sometimewoodworker]

On 9/9/2018 at 8:47 AM, happyme said:

What I understand may be wrong but they now require up to date bank statement from a thai Bank showing 800,000Bt or the monthly payment  received in you bank account  

No. For income. It is income proof not bank deposits proof.

Yes for 800,000 deposit

[grin]

After having to show backup for the US income affidavit I think it is simpler if I hide income that is not needed. I.e. in the past I showed all regular monthly income due to thinking that I would be lying on the affidavit if I left some sources of income out. On re-reading the affidavit more carefully I think there would be no problem if I left some income out. In my case my monthly pay check covers the income requirement so in the future that is all I will show on the affidavit and it is the only thing I will need to show as backup. KISS or keep it simple stupid as I tell myself.

[moontang]

34 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

I think this is just speculation.  I seriously doubt that mass American retirees are dishonest about their Social Security and or other retirement benefits.  The comment I heard in person about my two pensions was telling....."I wonder why farangs get so much retirement.?  Compared to Thailand, I understand but a minimal retirement pension in the USA is more than enough to live on in Thailand and easily provable. No need to be dishonest, unless someone is trying to hide the source of their income.

average us ss check is 1350...Thailand requires 1950...throw in the masses that are here because it is cheap....more than half the letters are bogus..bought my first home here in 2006...always some in a panic when their currency declines...just as many have to fudge numbers for the marriage extensions.  Saying your income is 2000, when you have 1600 in costs may not be making a false statement, but it obviously goes against the spirit of the rules....and is even shadier than four guys using the same deposit.

Edited September 10, 2018 by moontang

[NancyL]

59 minutes ago, grin said:

After having to show backup for the US income affidavit I think it is simpler if I hide income that is not needed. I.e. in the past I showed all regular monthly income due to thinking that I would be lying on the affidavit if I left some sources of income out. On re-reading the affidavit more carefully I think there would be no problem if I left some income out. In my case my monthly pay check covers the income requirement so in the future that is all I will show on the affidavit and it is the only thing I will need to show as backup. KISS or keep it simple stupid as I tell myself.

Hubby has two pensions -- Social Security and a private pension from a former employer -- that when combined more than adequately meet the income requirement for Thai immigration.  That is always the amount he was reported on the US consulate affidavit. 

 

He has never reported his entire income which includes investments, interest, etc, because it fluctuates from year-to-year and the documentation to support it would be difficult for someone to understand and probably reveal his net worth.  He has always brought our Federal Income Tax returns with him when doing his annual retirement extension, figuring he'd show the 1099 forms from SSA and the private pension provider and/or the annual letters from each detailing how much his pension was going to be for the coming year. 

 

That's the plan for the coming visa extension application in November and we'll see if he's actually asked for proof this time.  Again, we think there is no need to reveal our complete financial picture, just enough (that's easily understandable) to prove he has what's needed to meet their requirements.

[grin]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

Hubby has two pensions -- Social Security and a private pension from a former employer -- that when combined more than adequately meet the income requirement for Thai immigration.  That is always the amount he was reported on the US consulate affidavit. 

 

He has never reported his entire income which includes investments, interest, etc, because it fluctuates from year-to-year and the documentation to support it would be difficult for someone to understand and probably reveal his net worth.  He has always brought our Federal Income Tax returns with him when doing his annual retirement extension, figuring he'd show the 1099 forms from SSA and the private pension provider and/or the annual letters from each detailing how much his pension was going to be for the coming year. 

 

That's the plan for the coming visa extension application in November and we'll see if he's actually asked for proof this time.  Again, we think there is no need to reveal our complete financial picture, just enough (that's easily understandable) to prove he has what's needed to meet their requirements.

I only reported regular monthly income consisting of my paycheck, rental income and royalty payments. I never reported my other income from Schedule C's, work bonuses, stock options, and other investment income. When I stop working my SS income alone will be all I need to report. Again I have learned my lesson and will just keep it simple.

[Nowisee]

On 9/9/2018 at 11:00 AM, silverhawk_usa said:

I have posted about this, in length, before.  So here is as simple as I can explain it.....the U.S. Consulate is only accepting your sworn statement of what you state under oath as your income,  and notarizing the affidavit. To make a false statement can result in prosecution.  They are not in anyway guaranteeing your income amount and probably never will.

That's correct.  An affidavit is, confirming your statement by oath/affirmation. 

The point of my comment was IF immigration wants to aliens to prove (requiring further evidence of the income) the validity of the affidavit, then they should come up with some sort of standardized document requirement.  Rather than random acceptance of some and not others by one I/O and not another, this is what complicates things like this.

Perhaps I should have left out the consulate part as to my speculation as to why they don't require proof.  Good call. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Nowisee

[NancyL]

2 minutes ago, Nowisee said:

That's correct.  An affidavit is, confirming your statement by oath/affirmation. 

The point of my comment was IF immigration wants to start proving the validity of the affidavit, then they should come up with some sort of standardized document requirement.  Rather than random acceptance of some and not others by one I/O and not another, this is what complicates things like this.

Perhaps I should have left out the consulate part as to my speculation as to why they don't require proof.  Good call. 

I don't anticipate CM Immigration coming up with a "standardized document requirement" because what they're doing is unique and not being done in any other province, at least not on as widespread a scale as is being done in Chiang Mai now.  To do so would be evidence that they're making up their own rules,  As it is now, they can fall back on what all of immigration has said for years that they have the right to ask for additional evidence in support of Consulate/Embassy income affidavits without being specific as to what they require.  They love having "discretion".