Must Read Shock as Trump backs Putin on election meddling at summit

[Silurian]

Who would of known that out of all the nicknames the Reality TV Con Artist gives other people, he has now given himself the best worst of them all. He will now forever be known as "Traitor Trump".

 

From now on, traitor and Trump will be synonymous in many people's mind. He will live in history next to Benedict Arnold and Aaron Burr.

 

 

[Hummin]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. He has given them the lowest unemployment in a long while and a booming economy, plus extra money in their pocket, but many still hate him, even before Russia summit.

Well if you pure gasolin on fire it heats up quick, but it is like pissing in your pants when its cold. It feels good for a second or two! 

 

Just wait for the reality hits back, and you have to deal with it. That bubble is huge, and it will burst. 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Which is exactly why he will be impeached, if not charged with treason.

Does the potus actually set foreign policy alone?

 

Seems to me that it would be, for good reasons, some form of committee. 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Does the potus actually set foreign policy alone?

 

Seems to me that it would be, for good reasons, some form of committee. 

U.S. presidents have a MASSIVE amount of individual power on foreign policy. 

[newnative]

5 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

No one can "prove" to what extent the Russian hacking and disinformation had on the election outcome, because how do you prove what causes millions of voters to decide on one candidate or another. So Rosenstein as a Justice Department figure can't publicly allege it.  He can allege all the factual things they have alleged -- conspiracy, computer hacking, election interference, identity theft, data theft, etc.

 

But anyone who watched the campaign play out, saw how the Russia-fed Wikileaks releases and fake and distorted social media campaigns against Clinton swelled and influenced public opinion would have to believe the Russian efforts played some role in changing the minds of some share of the voters in that election.  I have no doubt it played a role, along with Comey's pre-election public announcements.

 

Rosenstein also said the recent indictments didn't name any Americans.  But that doesn't mean that ones naming Americans aren't coming down the pike soon.

 

     Totally agree.  It may not be something that can be 'proven' but it's important to remember that Clinton won the popular vote and if a few states that very narrowly went for Trump had gone her way she would have won the Electoral College, as well.  (In my mind she will always have won the election but not the Electoral College, same as Gore.)  There's no doubt in my mind that the Russian meddling, along with Comey, did enough to swing the close election to Trump.  

[newnative]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. He has given them the lowest unemployment in a long while and a booming economy, plus extra money in their pocket, but many still hate him, even before Russia summit.

The 'extra money' only landed in the pockets of the rich.

[mikebike]

2 hours ago, smotherb said:

And why is American not technically correct? Our country's name is the United States of America. America is in our name. The other countries in North and South America do not have the word "America" in their names, do they?

All North and South Americans are considered "Americans". Or did you forget about continents?

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Don't disagree about Trump - completely mad.

 

But come on the CIA "very credible people" - would that be when they're not bombing neutral countries like Laos, overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with right wing dictators, undermining other countries elections (shock horror), or disappearing and torturing people?

 

Anyone who believes Russia bad US good as a mantra seriously does want their head examining. It ain't black and white. And those pulling the strings of the US "establishments" in the past are very very murky and care little about justice and democracy any more than the Russians or Chinese.

 

Anyone who believes in the mantra that "they are all the same" want their grasp of reality examined. To put it otherwise, Russia is bad, US is better. Doesn't make the US the Eternal Champion of Good. More a matter of degree. If you have any issues with that - consider the freedoms you take for granted. Or the consequences of posting political views in either country. Same same? Not really.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, Ramen087 said:

I find these inferences of submission perplexing.  Saying one thing in public, but knowing something else, and doing something different in the geopolitical arena is as old as politics itself. Read between the lines. Very little was accomplished when Obama and Putin had their stare down at the G-7. Neither one of these men is stupid, nor non-worldly. It's a political and diplomatic engagement yet to be played out. It's easier to best your diplomatic rivals up close. You may feel Putin has the upper hand, but I don't see him putting sanctions on any US corporations and individuals. Trump is an excellent negotiator and I like his odds. He knows how to play opossum when he has to, and losing isn't his style.

 

Quote

Trump is an excellent negotiator

 

Every time Trump fans toss in this slogan, I get reminded of 

 

 

The nonsense bit about Putin putting sanctions against the US - priceless. Thanks.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, mikebike said:

All North and South Americans are considered "Americans". Or did you forget about continents?

Oh, just stop it already. There is no other NATION state with the name of America than the USA. People of the USA are Americans. NO OTHER nationality including of course any in the Americas refers to their NATIONALITY as American. Got it now? Good. 

[Hummin]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh dear, oh dear ( shakes head in wonder ).

 

except this time he’s going to bankrupt the nation.

LOL, Obama already did that with his 17 trillion or whatever debt.

 

Really? Omg

[Hummin]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and Trump is the only one trying to level the playing field with his tariffs on China. However, many US politicians think they should allow China to continue to rip off the US. Also many non politicians by the looks of it.

Trump is the one calling out Germany for giving Russia loadsacash while expecting the US to protect Germany for free, or nearly free from Russia.

I have one word for you: Wallmart!

 

Americans ripped themselves appart, and one of the reasons is they like to  buy cheep shit! Thats how you ended up in the pockets of the Chineese and then outsourced all of your top noth business in the name of free markeds

[tomacht8]

Another aspect of how little DT thinks.
Two days before he threatens the EU - the foe - because of the gas pipeline, Nord Stream 2 sharp.
Then Putin must have clearly said his opinion.
Suddenly he is the tender Twitter little bird in Putin's hand.
 

U.S. President Donald Trump eased his tone about a Russian natural gas pipeline to Germany after a one-on-one meeting with President Vladimir Putin, shifting from the harsh criticism he’d levied in Europe last week.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-16/trump-says-u-s-will-compete-with-russia-for-european-gas-market

So you can not shape international politics.
Words such as stupid, naive and reckless are still too soft in the description.
The US must be careful not to be taken seriously on the world stage anymore.
There is urgent need for correction to stop this megalomaniac one man show.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Wow, with all the Helsinki fireworks, I missed this on the eve of the summit.  When it rains Trump, I guess it really pours Trump.

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1048626-on-eve-of-russia-summit-trump-calls-european-union-a-foe/

 

Quote

 

HELSINKI (Reuters) - On the eve of his meeting with Russia's Vladimir Putin, U.S. President Donald Trump rattled allies once more by labelling the European Union a "foe" with regard to trade.

 

In a pre-summit interview with CBS News' "Face the Nation" programme aired on Sunday, Trump lumped in the EU with China and Russia as U.S. economic adversaries. "I think the European Union is a foe, what they do to us in trade," he said.

 

Quote

 

Trump has baffled his own advisers at times with his unabashed desire for strong ties with Putin, White House sources have said. Most U.S. officials see Putin as an unsavoury character on the world stage.

 

U.S. officials have said they hope to make progress during the talks persuading Russia to use its influence to get Iranian forces out of Syria, as part of a wider campaign to rein in Iran's influence in the Middle East.  They also expect Trump to bring up Russia's incursion into Ukraine and the allegations of Russian meddling in the election.

 

 

Well, guess those things didn't happen...not at least, in the way anyone expected.

 

 

 

[Hummin]

3 hours ago, smotherb said:

And why is American not technically correct? Our country's name is the United States of America. America is in our name. The other countries in North and South America do not have the word "America" in their names, do they?

For Canada and every middle and south American country, it is refered to the continent, not the country itself! 

[androokery]

5 hours ago, stud858 said:

Usa-ian,  is the U S A the only country that doesn't have a word for their people.  This was stated to me by a person from the USA. American is not technically correct. 

The Vatican? Vaticanians?

[canuckamuck]

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Oh, just stop it already. There is no other NATION state with the name of America than the USA. People of the USA are Americans. NO OTHER nationality including of course any in the Americas refers to their NATIONALITY as American. Got it now? Good. 

It is only because the "Americans" could not get their act together and come with a definitive name for their country. What would it be like if a country in Africa called themselves the United states of Africa, or if it happened similarly in Asia or Europe. Maybe that is a project they can work on in the next couple of years. Give the country a name. Meanwhile the non yank nations on 2 continents cannot refer to themselves as Americans, because they don't wish to be misunderstood.  

[ChouDoufu]

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

Did you get your information from Putin?  If not, where did it come from?

 

https://www.wired.com/2016/07/heres-know-russia-dnc-hack/

 

http://time.com/4600177/election-hack-russia-hillary-clinton-donald-trump/

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/jul/31/what-we-know-about-russias-role-dnc-email-leak/

interesting reading, but i will echo a stable genius...."where's the server?"

 

i don't doubt the russians (and a slew of other nation-state actors) gained access to the dnc servers.  that is to be expected. indeed i would be surprised if that were not the case.  but what does it say about the integrity of the "investigation" when the fbi is refused access to the crime scene?  what are they hiding?  and how can other agencies make evaluations based on a the limited bit of data released by crowdstrike that they claim to have discoverd on the server?

 

was there actual evidence of russian hacking found?  was there evidence of hacking by multiple actors?  was the claim or hacking based on the tools used, and are those tools not available to anyone?  and can attribution be based on these bits of data now that the nsa itself has been hacked (or leaked by employee?) and their tools which they use to insert false id's into hacks has been released to the hacking community.

 

so.  where's the server?

[newnative]

3 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

It is only because the "Americans" could not get their act together and come with a definitive name for their country. What would it be like if a country in Africa called themselves the United states of Africa, or if it happened similarly in Asia or Europe. Maybe that is a project they can work on in the next couple of years. Give the country a name. Meanwhile the non yank nations on 2 continents cannot refer to themselves as Americans, because they don't wish to be misunderstood.  

Well, sure they can, they just need to be a little specific.  I'm South American, from Brazil.  I'm North American, from Canada.  I'm Central American, from Panama.

[canuckamuck]

1 minute ago, newnative said:

Well, sure they can, they just need to be a little specific.  I'm South American, from Brazil.  I'm North American, from Canada.  I'm Central American, from Panama.

Well we are used to working around the American way of things. They deserve our respect, they win the world series every year.

[FritsSikkink]

Wet noodle:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/schwarzenegger-calls-trump-a-wet-noodle-after-putin-summit/vi-AAAcqwO?ocid=spartanntp

Edited July 17, 2018 by FritsSikkink

[GroveHillWanderer]

4 hours ago, sukhumvitneon said:

EU's view is that the US is a cash cow and is cannon fodder for any war with Russia.  US then asserts sovereignty and calls the EU on its bullshit.  These shit countries can't even be bothered to meet 2% defense spending.

 

Then we get labeled: "You're a Nazi/fascist/racist"  Pick any three.  Sit and spin, EU.

There is nothing anywhere about EU countries having to spend 2% on defence. You don't even seem to realise that the EU and NATO are two different things. 

 

Also, if we're talking about NATO, some of them do spend 2% or more already (6 at the moment and it will be 8 by the end of the year) and the summit declaration which all the NATO leaders (including Donald Trump) signed this week, only talks about most of the others trying to reach a 2% level by 2024. Even then, it's still only a voluntary commitment, not a requirement.

[smotherb]

2 hours ago, mikebike said:

All North and South Americans are considered "Americans". Or did you forget about continents?

Ah, er, ah; did you not see what I said? " Our country's name is the United States of America. America is in our name. The other countries in North and South America do not have the word "America" in their names, do they?"

 

North and South America are the continents; so how is it you think I forgot about the continents?

 

The peoples from the other countries in North or South America, just like the Americans, are called by the names of their countries; e.g., Brazilians, Argentinians, Peruvians,  Costa Ricans, Hondurans, Mexicans, Canadians, etc. Would you rather call the people from the United States of America, Unitedians or Statesians?

 

We prefer Americans. If you don't like it; well, you can cry.

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

interesting reading, but i will echo a stable genius...."where's the server?"

 

i don't doubt the russians (and a slew of other nation-state actors) gained access to the dnc servers.  that is to be expected. indeed i would be surprised if that were not the case.  but what does it say about the integrity of the "investigation" when the fbi is refused access to the crime scene?  what are they hiding?  and how can other agencies make evaluations based on a the limited bit of data released by crowdstrike that they claim to have discoverd on the server?

 

was there actual evidence of russian hacking found?  was there evidence of hacking by multiple actors?  was the claim or hacking based on the tools used, and are those tools not available to anyone?  and can attribution be based on these bits of data now that the nsa itself has been hacked (or leaked by employee?) and their tools which they use to insert false id's into hacks has been released to the hacking community.

 

so.  where's the server?

The DNC is a private organization, the server is private property, the data in it is private information.  When the police are asked to find someone stealing mail, they are not invited to read and keep the mail.

 

Regarding crowdstrike; government agencies routinely contract for outside expertise when the technical skills don't exist in-house.  Intelligence agencies routinely limit the information they release to that which will not reveal how the information is acquired. 

 

People with far greater knowledge of this matter than me, and with no incentive to lie, are confident that Russia hacked the DNC server.  That's good enough for me.  Generating a conspiracy theory about the server is a deflection.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, BobBKK said:

I'm afraid your reflections, if they can be called that,  are so off the mark its almost embarrassing. Putin is not a Hitler. Your hatred burns away at your soul and you cannot see anything for the flames. USA is not at war with Russia and Russia is not the enemy even though some US rednecks want to paint it that way.  Both sides spy, meddle and cheat right?  it's all manufactured BS for the masses hoping to get rid of Trump in 2020. Tell us you can see that.

We get it:  Both sides spy, so you think it's no big deal that Russia has attempted and will once again attempt to undermine US elections.  You think it's no big deal that Trump trusts Putin more than his intelligence services.  I and many others disagree.

 

You also want the investigation to be finished quietly and quickly.  You don't want voters in 2018 and 2020 having Russian manipulation on their minds and viewing news from unknown sources more skeptically.  You, and Putin, want people ignorant, gullible, and easily manipulated.  I and many others disagree on this also.

 

I want as much about this investigation as can be released to be made public.  I realize information will be severely limited before the investigation finished, but after it is concluded I want a book published about it's findings, just as was done after the 9-11 investigation.  https://www.amazon.com/11-Commission-Report-Terrorist-Authorized/dp/0393326713/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1531840721&sr=1-1&keywords=9%2F11+commission+report

 

I want that.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

Does the potus actually set foreign policy alone?

 

Seems to me that it would be, for good reasons, some form of committee. 

There are some checks, but normally POTUS has a great deal of leeway in foreign policy.  However even this Republican dominated Congress has found ways to limit Trump's influence, especially when it comes to Russia and sanctions. 

[Opl]

"Trump’s Appeasement Summit with Putin.  Putin clearly tried to play alpha dog with Trump from the start. At an opening photo call, the optics were awful. Putin looked bored. He slouched back into the side of his chair, his legs spread. He often didn’t even look at Trump. "

 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trumps-appeasement-summit-with-putin

 

"Putin pets his poodle at the Helsinki summit" 

“[Director of National Intelligence] Dan Coats came to me and some others, they said they think it’s Russia. I have President Putin; he just said it’s not Russia. I will say this: I don’t see any reason why it would be.” That supposed bafflement about motive came even though Putin had just acknowledged he had wanted Trump to win “because he was the one who wanted to normalize relations with Russia.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/editorials/2018/07/16/putin-pets-his-poodle-helsinki-summit/uZUsLA6gD37s7jfXG8nQZK/story.html

Edited July 17, 2018 by Opl

[stud858]

3 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Well we are used to working around the American way of things. They deserve our respect, they win the world series every year.

This is getting comical.  Reminds of the Seinfeld episode where George tries to understand the difference between the Netherlands and Holland, and after being explained they are the same he finally says, " well,  who are the Dutch?"

Americans it is then for people from the U.S. I accept it. 

Go Trump!

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There was an interesting analysis piece on CNN.com asking the question of just how long Trump's "war cabinet"  -- Mattis, Pompeo, Coats, Bolton, (not to mention Kelly)  serious men who've spent their careers opposing the Soviet Union and Russia and what they stand for -- can continue abiding their president's foolishness... The question is asked, but obviously not answered.

 

How long can his war Cabinet tolerate Trump's farce?

By Peter Bergen, CNN National Security Analyst

Updated 11:17 AM ET, Tue July 17, 2018

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/16/opinions/how-long-can-war-cabinet-tolerate-trump-farce-bergen/index.html
 

Quote

 

The Helsinki, Finland, summit will surely go down as one of the worst-ever presidential performances on the international stage. Not since President John F. Kennedy was thoroughly intimidated when he met with the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev in Vienna, Austria, in 1961 has an American president been so completely and artfully outflanked by his Russian counterpart.

 

 

 

Quote

Surely Trump's performance in Helsinki must have the members of his war Cabinet asking themselves: How can I continue serving in this administration? After all, these are serious public servants, much of whose lives have been bound up in countering first the Soviet threat and now the Russian threat.

 

Quote

 

So, we are now in the bizarre place where the Trump administration seems to have two sets of policies about Russia. There is the policy of the administration, which has taken a fairly hard line on Russia...Then there is the policy of the President, who continues to embrace Putin and to deny the assessments of his own intelligence agencies. How long is this really sustainable for the members of Trump's war Cabinet?

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just want to be clear about one thing here, though.  While the U.S. government under Trump has kept sanctions on Russia and taken some other punitive responses, I think Trump personally is responsible for NONE of that. And instead, it's those around him who have managed to get him to do things he wouldn't ordinarily want to do.

 

In part because, his entire term as president has had him in the crosshairs of a Russia election tampering/Trump campaign collusion investigation, which has effectively tied his hands and left him unable to act on his true wishes. If it weren't for the Russia investigation, I have no doubt Trump by now would have dropped the Russia sanctions and who knows what else vis-a-vis Russia so he can achieve his goal of being good pals with Putin.