UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1032571/brexit-live-theresa-may-leaders-summit-brussels-philip-hammond

 

You'd have thought the Tories would have learned lessons about boxing themselves in, wouldn't you? 

[tebee]

French are getting prepared for a no-deal brexit - it's a pity we are not.

 

And for Brits in the UK like myself, it's not pretty.

 

 

 

[tebee]

UK citizens in France get thrown under the bus.

 

Presumably it will be the same in the rest of the EU

 

 

[tebee]

This is an example of how powerful Britain will be in the world post brexit

 

And a shining example of how Theresa May's "hostile environment" to all foreigners contradicts the Brexiters platitudes about "Global Britain".  In reality you can't have both

 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/how-tiny-moldova-s-brexit-grudge-could-cost-u-k-1-7-trillion

[kwilco]

15 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"If you want the cheapest food then be prepared for cruelly reared and slaughtered meat"

 

Genuine question - has the eu banned battery farming?  A similar question applies re. the cruel practices when it comes to slaughter....  Is foie gras still produced within the eu, or allowed to enter it's borders?  

 

AFAIK, the eu has made virtually no difference in these areas.

Go to a slaughterhouse in Indonesia or even Thailand and see for yourself....

[tebee]

15 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"If you want the cheapest food then be prepared for cruelly reared and slaughtered meat"

 

Genuine question - has the eu banned battery farming?  A similar question applies re. the cruel practices when it comes to slaughter....  Is foie gras still produced within the eu, or allowed to enter it's borders?  

 

AFAIK, the eu has made virtually no difference in these areas.

Yes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Council_Directive_1999/74/EC

 

The directive, passed in 1999, banned conventional battery cages in the EU from 1 January 2012 after a 13-year phase-out

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

UK citizens in France get thrown under the bus.

 

Presumably it will be the same in the rest of the EU

 

 

I hope this isn't the case. It could fast become a slippery slope. It ain't a one way street after all.

 

How many French men and women live and work in the UK? A lot! And (in the event of a no deal Brexit) could this not become a diplomatic game of tit-for-tat ? Something to be avoided surely. Stupid.

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

I think Aright's link was fair, considering the date of it.

 

Now read this from: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/china-is-winning-the-new-scramble-for-africa-brexit-could-change-that/

 

"The EU now allows certain processed foods such as cocoa and roasted coffee to be imported from the least developed countries tariff-free. In treating free trade as a humanitarian gesture, however, the EU merely emphasises its instinctive protectionism".

Every government in the world is instinctively protective of its home grown industries, human nature?

When the UK starts negotiations with the US, EU protectionism will pale into insignificance.

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, Orac said:

Still going low with the incorrect “blatant lie” claim I see - how sad.

If you think zero-tariffs from Africa is not significant to the debate you clearly don’t understand the issue.
Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

For a long time politicians said that it was the intention of the government to adopt the EU WTO schedule. The reality is of course the schedule cannot be adopted as it stood, a certain amount of text would need to be amended so it could only be replicated as applicable to the UK.

You have to bear in mind that in saying that they are the same, even if that is effectively the case, it provides an excuse to any impartial international trade guru to make out it is nothing more than a lie.

 

“It seeks to replicate the concessions and commitments applicable to the UK as part of the EU today. An important milestone as we prepare for our departure from the EU,” British Ambassador Julian Braithwaite wrote in a tweet.

"Britain’s government says that only minimal changes will be needed in the text and it does not expect any difficulties, apart from potentially in agriculture."

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-wto/britain-and-eu-formally-start-splitting-wto-membership-agreements-idUKKBN1KE2LJ

[nauseus]

55 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Every government in the world is instinctively protective of its home grown industries, human nature?

When the UK starts negotiations with the US, EU protectionism will pale into insignificance.

EU protectionism will only pale into insignificance when the EU is either reconstituted or dissolved.     

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I hope this isn't the case. It could fast become a slippery slope. It ain't a one way street after all.

 

How many French men and women live and work in the UK? A lot! And (in the event of a no deal Brexit) could this not become a diplomatic game of tit-for-tat ? Something to be avoided surely. Stupid.

 

The whole thing is stupid

 

Have you not realised that yet?

[Orac]

A Brexit plus - not all doom and gloom.

 

Australia has been carrying out consultations with industry and public bodies about what they want from a future FTA with U.K. and this little titbit turned up - sorry but no link as it was a pic on twitter.

[My Thai Life]

Some reactions to the idea of delaying another year:

 

"We cannot find the money to fund our frontline police properly, we cannot find the £2 billion for the vulnerable on Universal Credit, but we can mysteriously find billions to bung to the EU for the unnecessary extra year Clegg and Blair asked Barnier for to waylay Brexit," said Ms Dorries.

 

And Mr Davis's former chief of staff Stewart Jackson asked: "If you can't - or in the EU's case won't - resolve the backstop issue now because it's an issue of principle than why will it take another three years to resolve it? Will it not be an issue of principle once we have coughed up billions more in UK taxpayers' cash?"

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/17/brexit-live-michel-barnier-offers-extend-transition-period-ahead/

 

[dick dasterdly]

5 hours ago, tebee said:

Yes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Council_Directive_1999/74/EC

 

The directive, passed in 1999, banned conventional battery cages in the EU from 1 January 2012 after a 13-year phase-out

Did you read the link you provided?

 

Yes, the eu issued a directive in 1999 banning "conventional battery cages" after 2012.

 

BUT:-

1) The directive does not apply to establishments with fewer than 350 laying hens or establishments rearing breeding laying hens. Such establishments are, however, subject to the requirements of Directive 98/58/EC. The directive is not supported with fines, penalties or export bans.

 

2) allowed "furnished cages" ????....  A small improvement over 'battery cages' that a few individual eu countries are also banning as cruel.  Another quote from your linked article "Germany has introduced a ‘family cage’, which has more space than the furnished cages used in other countries, however, consumers in Germany have been rejecting these eggs. Outside the EU, Switzerland has already banned both the battery and furnished cage systems."  

 

I applaude German consumers for hitting the producers where it hurts - their wallet.

 

3) "It is clear that beyond the date of the law coming into effect, many hens are still being housed in battery cages. European Commission figures show that more than 47 million hens are still (January 2012) in conventional battery cages across the EU, representing 14.3% of production,^[8] although it has been reported this figure might be as high as 23% of EU egg production – equivalent to 84 million hens laying 70 million eggs a day"

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Orac said:

A Brexit plus - not all doom and gloom.

 

Australia has been carrying out consultations with industry and public bodies about what they want from a future FTA with U.K. and this little titbit turned up - sorry but no link as it was a pic on twitter.

The usual wild optimism that still pervades Brexiteer thinking. 

 

Also, any expats on this forum are likely not to live in Australia.

[tebee]

Well they have made a start !

 

Incidentally most of the indoor chicken production in France is for the British Frozen chicken supermarket trade, where price is King. The French prefer "Label   Rouge" corn fed, free range chickens to eat. Only poor people eat  the white indoor raised birds.

 

Incidentally it's very hard to find frozen chicken in France, almost all is fresh. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by tebee

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Some reactions to the idea of delaying another year:

 

"We cannot find the money to fund our frontline police properly, we cannot find the £2 billion for the vulnerable on Universal Credit, but we can mysteriously find billions to bung to the EU for the unnecessary extra year Clegg and Blair asked Barnier for to waylay Brexit," said Ms Dorries.

 

And Mr Davis's former chief of staff Stewart Jackson asked: "If you can't - or in the EU's case won't - resolve the backstop issue now because it's an issue of principle than why will it take another three years to resolve it? Will it not be an issue of principle once we have coughed up billions more in UK taxpayers' cash?"

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/17/brexit-live-michel-barnier-offers-extend-transition-period-ahead/

 

The extra year is needed because the Government couldn't get its act together.  A weak, half baked government with a weak, half baked plan.

[tebee]

44% of the UK population now expect us to leave with no deal.

 

 

 

https://theconversation.com/no-deal-brexit-survey-reveals-44-of-people-expect-the-uk-to-crash-out-of-eu-105161

 

[Orac]

11 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The usual wild optimism that still pervades Brexiteer thinking. 

 

Also, any expats on this forum are likely not to live in Australia.

 

Not sure where you are coming from with that comment - I am hardly a brexiteer and the item is from a report to a committee of the Australian Parliament. Their thinking is that this would bring an extra 1b$ a year into Australia which would clearly be an additional annual  cost to U.K. if they can push it through as part of an FTA.

 

Though not directly effecting expats in Thailand it does have the potential to put more impetus behind the campaign to get this looked at on a worldwide basis particularly it other nations also request this in negotiations.

[stretch5163]

On 8/10/2018 at 7:32 AM, tomacht8 said:

The EU just wants to prevent that criminals pirates smuggling substandard products duty-free into the EU. That's not difficult to understand.

LOL biggest crock post i've read yet. EU can't do anything to secure any of their borders in Europe in regard's to smuggling, Immigration and anything else that affects so called EU border's. That is what is not difficult to understand. Too many people have opinions about hings that do not directly affect them.

 

Maybe they should get their own border's sorted without bothering about other borders.

 

No matter what happens with Brexit it will never be an acceptable agreement on any side.

 

Britain has gone it alone before and im sure it can do again. Blow up the channel tunnel will be the 1st good start. Then EU wont need to worry about that border. Put a hard border back in Ireland that's problem solved there. Not as if these borders were not in place before and not as if they cannot be put back in place.

[dick dasterdly]

46 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Did you read the link you provided?

 

Yes, the eu issued a directive in 1999 banning "conventional battery cages" after 2012.

 

BUT:-

1) The directive does not apply to establishments with fewer than 350 laying hens or establishments rearing breeding laying hens. Such establishments are, however, subject to the requirements of Directive 98/58/EC. The directive is not supported with fines, penalties or export bans.

 

2) allowed "furnished cages" ????....  A small improvement over 'battery cages' that a few individual eu countries are also banning as cruel.  Another quote from your linked article "Germany has introduced a ‘family cage’, which has more space than the furnished cages used in other countries, however, consumers in Germany have been rejecting these eggs. Outside the EU, Switzerland has already banned both the battery and furnished cage systems."  

 

I applaude German consumers for hitting the producers where it hurts - their wallet.

 

3) "It is clear that beyond the date of the law coming into effect, many hens are still being housed in battery cages. European Commission figures show that more than 47 million hens are still (January 2012) in conventional battery cages across the EU, representing 14.3% of production,^[8] although it has been reported this figure might be as high as 23% of EU egg production – equivalent to 84 million hens laying 70 million eggs a day"

 

29 minutes ago, tebee said:

Well they have made a start !

 

Incidentally most of the indoor chicken production in France is for the British Frozen chicken supermarket trade, where price is King. The French prefer "Label   Rouge" corn fed, free range chickens to eat. Only poor people eat  the white indoor raised birds.

 

Incidentally it's very hard to find frozen chicken in France, almost all is fresh. 

A start?  The directive was supposed to stop battery farming in 2012!

 

And the directive (which has been pretty much ignored by a few eu countries) still allowed "furnished cages".  i.e. a tiny improvement - that is still battery farming.....

 

Your 'point' that battery farmed chicken production in France is sent to the Brits. -  only goes to prove that France hasn't stopped battery farming.

 

Edit - I notice that you prefer the term "indoor chicken production", in much the same way the eu prefers the term "furnished cages".....☹️

Edited October 18, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Orac]

LOL biggest crock post i've read yet. EU can't do anything to secure any of their borders in Europe in regard's to smuggling, Immigration and anything else that affects so called EU border's. That is what is not difficult to understand. Too many people have opinions about hings that do not directly affect them.
 
Maybe they should get their own border's sorted without bothering about other borders.
 
No matter what happens with Brexit it will never be an acceptable agreement on any side.
 
Britain has gone it alone before and im sure it can do again. Blow up the channel tunnel will be the 1st good start. Then EU wont need to worry about that border. Put a hard border back in Ireland that's problem solved there. Not as if these borders were not in place before and not as if they cannot be put back in place.

Steadily moving from Canada+++ to No Deal to the new North Korea Brexit option I see.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

A start?  The directive was supposed to stop battery farming in 2012!

 

And the directive (which has been pretty much ignored by a few eu countries) still allowed "furnished cages".  i.e. a tiny improvement - that is still battery farming.....

 

Your 'point' that battery farmed chicken production in France is sent to the Brits. -  only goes to prove that France hasn't stopped battery farming.

No I meant open indoor raised rather than battery raised - battery is general only used for egg production rather than chickens raised for meat.

 

I will agree that furnished cages are far from perfect, but they are much better than the original battery cages, where the chickens have no space to move round. Do you think we would have got even this far without the EU?

  

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

No I meant open indoor raised rather than battery raised - battery is general only used for egg production rather than chickens raised for meat.

 

 

like this

 

Ayam [Public domain], by 31Dordia, from Wikimedia Commons

[tebee]

Ex-cabinet Brexiters:
"People voted to leave, they knew that meant Hard Brexit, they can't change their minds now"

Also:
"The December agreement we voted for - we didn't know what it meant, we must be able to go back & change our minds"

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, tebee said:

like this

 

Ayam [Public domain], by 31Dordia, from Wikimedia Commons

Ignoring the point that original battery farming has only been replaced by 'furnished cages' (according to your link) - the 'photo you have shown is not an example of 'furnished cages'.

 

I'd add, that the 'photo provided is presumably not typical - rather a 'photo taken to comfort those who are looking for a reason to find no problem with 'indoor farming'.  The rest of us who actually care about stopping some of the cruelty involved, see it as a way round free-range, and - like the French (according to you), would ONLY buy organic, or at least free-range.

 

The terms 'furnished cages' and 'indoor farming' - says everything about these practices....  Comforting terms to pretend they're not cruel and inhumane.  (I'm obviously using the term inhumane in the sense of the 'superiority' we are supposed to possess - not the actuality that we as a species are not at all superior to other animals when it comes to inflicting suffering on others, if it suits our own ends).

 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[7by7]

46 minutes ago, stretch5163 said:

Put a hard border back in Ireland that's problem solved there.

But it will create an even bigger problem.

 

A 'soft' border between North and South is part of the Good Friday agreement.

 

A hard land border will upset Republicans; a hard sea border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK will upset Unionists.

 

I don't mean just upset the politicians; I mean either will upset the people with guns and bombs!

 

Before the Good Friday agreement we had 30 years of regular terrorist murders and atrocities in the RoI and UK; do you want to go back to that?

[tebee]

There is a high % of levers in NI that want Brexit even if it wreaks the Good Friday agreement. 

 

So brexit is worth reigniting a civil war in your country for ? You are the ones who are going to have to live through this - I really don't understand the brexit at all costs mentality.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

There is a high % of levers in NI that want Brexit even if it wreaks the Good Friday agreement. 

 

So brexit is worth reigniting a civil war in your country for ? You are the ones who are going to have to live through this - I really don't understand the brexit at all costs mentality.

Feels like Brexit has become a dogma for some people. All logical thinking can be thrown away, when religion like feelings suppress the frontal cortex functions. 

[candide]

26 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Ignoring the point that original battery farming has only been replaced by 'furnished cages' (according to your link) - the 'photo you have shown is not an example of 'furnished cages'.

 

I'd add, that the 'photo provided is presumably not typical - rather a 'photo taken to comfort those who are looking for a reason to find no problem with 'indoor farming'.  The rest of us who actually care about stopping some of the cruelty involved, see it as a way round free-range, and - like the French (according to you), would ONLY buy organic, or at least free-range.

 

The terms 'furnished cages' and 'indoor farming' - says everything about these practices....  Comforting terms to pretend they're not cruel and inhumane.  (I'm obviously using the term inhumane in the sense of the 'superiority' we are supposed to possess - not the actuality that we as a species are not at all superior to other animals when it comes to inflicting suffering on others, if it suits our own ends).

 

 

I agree with you that while the situation has improved a bit with the EU regulation, the furnished cages are far from ideal (and usually much more crowded than in the picture shown). 

What seems to be efficient is the pression from public opinion and consumer lobbies. In Germany, eggs produced in cages have been banned by distributors and the same is occurring now in France.

The French government has also announced it will ban the production of eggs in cage. It can be hoped that national initiatives will ultimately lead to improvements in the EU regulation.