BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[JackThompson]

46 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

the expat who buys income letters from the internet,

This is the first I've heard of this.  Complete with watermark, etc (IOs look for this)?  Requiring a MFA-stamp (as I had to do for a Non-O application) would eliminate this issue, in any case.  That process can be done via-mail. 

 

I can certainly understand why fake-letters would cause anger, given the applicant could get a faked-money extension without paying into the agent-system which provides that option (using 1-day loaned, un-seasoned money in-the-bank).

 

29 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Common practice for visa agents to "seed" bank accounts and give a sweetner to IO to get them through. I suspect that this practice may come to an end.

32 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Maybe he knows where the 'agent' skeletons are and wants to know who the cupboard belongs to?

I suspect negotiations are ongoing - though it may have been worked-out conditional to accepting the position.  Consider how much loot is at stake.  I would expect some high-profile "busts" for appearances, then back to the usual - perhaps with higher fees, though.

Edited October 11, 2018 by JackThompson

[soalbundy]

Anyone know if this is a BE or FO decision ?

[vogie]

47 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Good observation there. It buggers my theory about why the BE is stopping this service since the BE income letters always had a similar 'disclaimer' statement across the bottom. I was pondering that maybe Thai Immigration had requested it be removed but now more likely they may have asked for the same, exact wording that the US are now placing on their income affidavits and highly likely the FCO mandarins and lawyers said they cannot do that.

 

If anyone has a BE income letter, maybe they can post the exact wording of their disclaimer just for comparison?

Is this what you were looking for.

 

Consular Letter Confirming Pension/Income for Retirement Visa – Fee No 2 (i)
This service is only available by post.
The Consular Section is able to issue a standard letter addressed to Thai Immigration confirming your 
pension/income to support the renewal/extension of your retirement visa. This letter is a Thai requirement and the 
granting of the visa is at the sole discretion of the Thai Immigration authorities, not the British Embassy.
Requirements 
 Photocopy of your current British passport data page (page with photo)
 Evidence of your current pension/income which will be returned to you
 Completed application form
Completed form as below. Please note we will use the financial figures provided on this form and will not check or 
amend any financial amounts.
Please ensure the pension/income evidence you provide is in a form that is simple and easy to understand and 
shows clearly the key financial amounts that are required for inclusion in the letter. According to Thai Immigration,

[superal]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What office?
Careful with your language.
Some people might read that as a requirement that it be over 800k all year rather than three months.
Yes they might want to see activity because if not they may wonder where your spending is coming from.
Sorry I don't believe they would really be requiring frequent deposits on bank based applications.
Sounds to me like a miscommunication.

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Dont shoot the messenger from up here in the north east  Not trying to be an alarmist but what I quoted was more or less verbatim . From my limited knowledge of the Thai visa system it seems that various IO have different rules or interpretations .

[gaviny]

When I bring physical cash over twice a year to top up my 800k amount for visa time I think it would be prudent from now on to keep my exchange booth receipts and pay the exact same amount into my account. Threads like this sometimes indirectly make you realise improvements in your funds audit trail you hadn't previously thought of. Maybe not required but a sensible precaution I feel

Yes I have never kept any records of cash brought in physically but this will prompt me to do ,if Oz Embassy follows suit.

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[sappersrest]

On 10/10/2018 at 10:56 AM, 007 RED said:

As many posters have already pointed out, we really don’t know if Thai immigration have imposed additional requirements on the BE in respect of their letter confirming income, or if the BE is reducing its workload in advance of its move to new accommodation in July next year.

 

The Freedom of Information Act 2000 provides members of the public (of any nationality or any location) to submit a request to any UK public body for information which they hold.

 

This morning I  submitted a request to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) via the WhatDoTheyKnow website https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwN_Mg_n63QIVVRuPCh2ApgvBEAAYASAAEgJYbfD_BwE

 

The request is as follows:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

On the 8th October 2018 the British Embassy in Bangkok announced on its website that with effect from the 1st January 2019 it will no longer be providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income.  This letter has previously served as a supporting document for British National obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.

 

According to the announcement the Embassy is stopping certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai Authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals. 

As the Embassy has not given any details as to why they cannot fulfil the Thai Authorities requirements I should be grateful if you would provide me, under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, the following information:

 

1.  The total number of letters confirming income issued to British Nationals by the Embassy during the following periods:

 

a)  8th October 2015 to 7th October 2016.

b)  8th October 2016 to 7th October 2017.

c)  8th October 2017 to 7th October 2018.

 

2.  Minutes of meetings, notes, correspondence (including emails) and conversation recordings between Embassy staff and Thai Authorities, and between Embassy staff which relate to the withdrawal of the provision of letters confirming income to British Nationals.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

The FCO should receive the request today and they have 20 working days (from tomorrow) to respond with the information requested or provide explanations as to why they cannot provide the information.

TV members will be able to see the request and responses on the above mentioned website – search under either FCO or Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Sent off today thanks.

[NanLaew]

15 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Anyone know if this is a BE or FO decision ?

The other thread (the one that mentions that they knew last May) suggests that it is a local BE decision.

 

Write your MP's!!!

[NanLaew]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

Is this what you were looking for.

 

Consular Letter Confirming Pension/Income for Retirement Visa – Fee No 2 (i)
This service is only available by post.
The Consular Section is able to issue a standard letter addressed to Thai Immigration confirming your 
pension/income to support the renewal/extension of your retirement visa. This letter is a Thai requirement and the 
granting of the visa is at the sole discretion of the Thai Immigration authorities, not the British Embassy.
Requirements 
 Photocopy of your current British passport data page (page with photo)
 Evidence of your current pension/income which will be returned to you
 Completed application form
Completed form as below. Please note we will use the financial figures provided on this form and will not check or 
amend any financial amounts.
Please ensure the pension/income evidence you provide is in a form that is simple and easy to understand and 
shows clearly the key financial amounts that are required for inclusion in the letter. According to Thai Immigration,

No. That's just the instruction letter.

 

member pontious has already posted the disclaimer from the actual BE income letter.

 

For New Zealand and Canadian members who's local embassy income verification process remains unchanged, is there any sort of disclaimer printed on the actual letters they issue? Or is it solely a hand-on-heart, swear-to-God type of verbal affirmation that's given.

 

Trying to suss out if it's the presence of any sort of disclaimer on the printed letter that is causing the ruckus. As I understand it, Thai Immigration want the BE to verify the income proof being supplied by each income. The BE says that cannot do this and the disclaimer pretty much says as much. Maybe removing the disclaimer isn't an option due to the legal protections it affords the BE and FCO?

Edited October 11, 2018 by NanLaew

[gaviny]

Now , to add salt to the wound , a friend of mine uses the 800k method to secure his visa . The 800k not only has to be in his Thai bank account for 3 months but the account has to be seen as active with regular deposits and withdrawals with the account never below the basic 800k  amount . This was fairly recent .

I hope this ain't true as I was thinking about depositing the 800K and then live off it for 9 months before topping it back for next renewal.I have used a Stat Dec from Oz Embassy in the past .Can anybody verify Superal's post?


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[fforest1]

Almost 1100 posts in 3 days on this thread...This has to be a Thai Visa record...

[giddyup]

16 minutes ago, gaviny said:

I hope this ain't true as I was thinking about depositing the 800K and then live off it for 9 months before topping it back for next renewal.I have used a Stat Dec from Oz Embassy in the past .Can anybody verify Superal's post?


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Jomtien immigration asks for the bank letter verifying the 800K deposit as well as photocopies of the bank book front and last entry page. There is never any mention as to what I live on through the year, even though I have a separate savings account. Whether I could live on the 800K for 9 months I can't say, but it clearly says that the 800K only has to be in an account for 3 months prior. I guess only your local immigration office can say for sure.

[Thaidream]

None of this makes any sense to me and it raises many questions-

 

IMHO- the issue centers on the fact that  the BE does not have the applicant swear under Oath and that  if one lies under Oath- the applicant is subject to a felony.  I don't know British Law but I do know American Law and to me this is the issue.

To swear under Oath- means you must appear in person and raise your hand and attest  in the affirmative.  You cannot do this by mail.  The US Embassy makes every applicant appear and attest under Oath.

 

-The issue of 'fake' Income letters is a non issue-  if handled correctly- If one appears in person- the Oath is taken- the person signs in front of the Embassy Official- a seal- dated and signed is embossed and imprinted into the paper.  The problem occurs when the BE allows its applicants to use the mail to get the letter- no Oath; No signed/raised seal and no signature in front of the Embassy Official.

 

Of course - making everyone come in person- means scheduled appointments; staff to verify the identify; give the Oath; sign the forms; use a Seal etc.

 

Therein lies the difference between the BE and the others and Thai Immigration doesn't like the BE system.  Instead of the BE changing the system- they have decided to eliminate  the letter.  

 

[Pattaya46]

8 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Jomtien immigration asks for the bank letter verifying the 800K deposit as well as photocopies of the bank book front and last entry page. //

Several years already that they don't ask any more for bank book copy. 

They may still take it if you give it to them though... 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Pattaya46

[kinyara]

3 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Jomtien immigration asks for the bank letter verifying the 800K deposit as well as photocopies of the bank book front and last entry page. There is never any mention as to what I live on through the year, even though I have a separate savings account. Whether I could live on the 800K for 9 months I can't say, but it clearly says that the 800K only has to be in an account for 3 months prior. I guess only your local immigration office can say for sure.

Yep, exactly the same experience in Jomtien, every entry is there in my passbook throughout the year for them to scrutinize and balance has dropped below the 800k for each of the last 3 years through use, topped up for the 3 month seasoning, never a problem. I would say the case mentioned is an isolated local example.

[soalbundy]

39 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The other thread (the one that mentions that they knew last May) suggests that it is a local BE decision.

 

Write your MP's!!!

or bombard the FO fb site with protests

Edited October 11, 2018 by soalbundy

[NanLaew]

21 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

IMHO- the issue centers on the fact that  the BE does not have the applicant swear under Oath and that  if one lies under Oath- the applicant is subject to a felony.  I don't know British Law but I do know American Law and to me this is the issue.

To swear under Oath- means you must appear in person and raise your hand and attest  in the affirmative.  You cannot do this by mail.  The US Embassy makes every applicant appear and attest under Oath.

And right there I think you may have nailed it.

 

The BE made it a mail-order only option a few years back and possibly Thai Immigration reckon that's open to fraudulent use which sort of takes the biscuit IMHO.

 

The Immigration want a face-to-face and the BE, due to the economies wrought of not having the great unwashed traipsing through their hallowed halls, has declined to support their request.

 

However, according to pontious, the US income affidavit does now include a written disclaimer that apparently never existed before.

Edited October 11, 2018 by NanLaew

[superal]

24 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Jomtien immigration asks for the bank letter verifying the 800K deposit as well as photocopies of the bank book front and last entry page. There is never any mention as to what I live on through the year, even though I have a separate savings account. Whether I could live on the 800K for 9 months I can't say, but it clearly says that the 800K only has to be in an account for 3 months prior. I guess only your local immigration office can say for sure.

and that can be a variant and rarely consistent

[maximuss99]

Through a Australian friend,its business as usual, at their Embassy.

And on their consular services website, it confirms this so ,with a updated to morning,  explanation of their services provided 

Make the most out of the above, and good luck????

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

And right there I think you may have nailed it.

 

The BE made it a mail-order only option a few years back and possibly Thai Immigration reckon that's open to fraudulent use which sort of takes the biscuit IMHO.

 

The Immigration want a face-to-face and the BE, due to the economies wrought of not having the great unwashed traipsing through their hallowed halls, has declined to support their request.

 

However, according to pontious, the US income affidavit does now include a written disclaimer that apparently never existed before.

I would have thought by showing the British Embassy our documents as to where our funds originate from it would make it less fraudulent than the other embassies.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, pontious said:

It says:

The service provided by the British Embassy on this document should not be taken as to certify that this document is binding in law [ whether under UK law or otherwise ]. Individuals are advised to seek independent legal advice as to the validity of this document under the relevant law.

 

 

I was going to post a copy of my 2018 letter and found that it was a photocopy and I had not saved it as an editable PDF file. I am not on my usual computer but I hope to try when I get back on.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Common practice for visa agents to "seed" bank accounts and give a sweetner to IO to get them through. I suspect that this practice may come to an end.

 

People buying fake British Embassy income letters off the internet and having them accepted by the IO? Highly unlikely. evidence please.

 

The original of a BE letter has an embossed stamp on the paper itself. I have copies of my BE letters going back years and I could edit them easily enough over the years but it is the embossed paper that would be the problem.

[gaviny]

Jomtien immigration asks for the bank letter verifying the 800K deposit as well as photocopies of the bank book front and last entry page. There is never any mention as to what I live on through the year, even though I have a separate savings account. Whether I could live on the 800K for 9 months I can't say, but it clearly says that the 800K only has to be in an account for 3 months prior. I guess only your local immigration office can say for sure.

Thanks mate ,will check with Sakeo IO, and as mentioned previously I usually bring cash with me on my 3 trips from Oz per year so that would supplement whatever I use from the 800K.

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[xylophone]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

 

I was going to post a copy of my 2018 letter and found that it was a photocopy and I had not saved it as an editable PDF file. I am not on my usual computer but I hope to try when I get back on.

That which was posted in your previous post is correct billd766, and I have added this para from mine which would seem suggest the BE are absolutely under no legal pressure with regards to their Embassy letter...……

 

"Mr Xylophone has also stated that he receives monthly pensions totalling "xyz" and has shown to us a letter from The Pension Service stating that he receives pensions totalling GBP xyz per annum. 

[giddyup]

38 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Several years already that they don't ask any more for bank book copy. 

They may still take it if you give it to them though... 

I only renewed my extension 3 months ago. They asked for bankbook copies because I had to go back outside to the shop next door to do it, and they have asked for it every time I renewed extension.

[billd766]

42 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

None of this makes any sense to me and it raises many questions-

 

IMHO- the issue centers on the fact that  the BE does not have the applicant swear under Oath and that  if one lies under Oath- the applicant is subject to a felony.  I don't know British Law but I do know American Law and to me this is the issue.

To swear under Oath- means you must appear in person and raise your hand and attest  in the affirmative.  You cannot do this by mail.  The US Embassy makes every applicant appear and attest under Oath.

 

-The issue of 'fake' Income letters is a non issue-  if handled correctly- If one appears in person- the Oath is taken- the person signs in front of the Embassy Official- a seal- dated and signed is embossed and imprinted into the paper.  The problem occurs when the BE allows its applicants to use the mail to get the letter- no Oath; No signed/raised seal and no signature in front of the Embassy Official.

 

Of course - making everyone come in person- means scheduled appointments; staff to verify the identify; give the Oath; sign the forms; use a Seal etc.

 

Therein lies the difference between the BE and the others and Thai Immigration doesn't like the BE system.  Instead of the BE changing the system- they have decided to eliminate  the letter.  

 

What does the US Embassy do if you don't believe in God? This is a serious question.

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, xylophone said:

That which was posted in your previous post is correct billd766, and I have added this para from mine which would seem suggest the BE are absolutely under no legal pressure with regards to their Embassy letter...……

 

"Mr Xylophone has also stated that he receives monthly pensions totalling "xyz" and has shown to us a letter from The Pension Service stating that he receives pensions totalling GBP xyz per annum. 

 

I have 3 pensions and as my extension renewal date is August 23rd I used to call all 3 providers early in May to start the ball rolling. The letters usually arrived in June and I would fill in the Embassy application and send that off in early July and their letter normally turned up in 2 working weeks.

 

That left me a month in which to apply early and time to get any extra documents for Immigration if required.

[gaviny]

I only renewed my extension 3 months ago. They asked for bankbook copies because I had to go back outside to the shop next door to do it, and they have asked for it every time I renewed extension.

Might be easier for myself to do the Stat Dec as they haven't asked me for evidence apart from SD, funnily enough the IO looked at it and then asked my missis if that was true, to which she replied ," Yup otherwise I wouldn't be with him". [emoji23]

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[giddyup]

1 minute ago, gaviny said:

Might be easier for myself to do the Stat Dec as they haven't asked me for evidence apart from SD, funnily enough the IO looked at it and then asked my missis if that was true, to which she replied ," Yup otherwise I wouldn't be with him".

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As long as the Aussie  embassy still issues a stat dec, go with it. It's just more convenient for me to keep the 800K in the bank. It's also a fall back if I needed money for emergency medical treatment.

[doctormann]

I foresee a potential problem.

 

Even if Thai Immigration agrees to accept bank statements, showing 65k deposited per month (for retirement) - and it is still not known if they will - we will be reliant on the Thai banks to provide the statements.  I doubt very much if electronic copies from the internet will be acceptable so we shall need them to provide the real thing - duly stamped.

 

Thai banks, like any other Thai institutions, are a law unto themselves.  How easy it would be if only they would all sing from the same hymn sheet but, as we know full well, this is never the case.  So, some banks may be very reluctant to provide the statements while others may be more amenable.  My own experience - several years ago now - was trying to get TMB to come up with transfer slips that showed deposits coming from abroad.  It was like trying to get blood out of a stone but I persisted and did eventually manage to get what I wanted.  At that time there was some indication that Immigration was interested in where the money was coming from.  They never followed this up though so, in the end, the slips were unnecessary.

 

[simoh1490]

Anyone spending enough time on TVF over the years will have frequently seen the ads. that get posted by scammers, typically a flood of around a dozen at a time that get deleted by Mods. very quickly. One only has to look at one those ads. to know that any type of official documentation is on offer from passports, to degrees, to bank statements etc, including Embassy letters, there's nothing new about this whatsoever.