Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Dionigi]

18 hours ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Agreed.  This is from the BKK website.

 

 

This is a form given to me by an Immigration Officer in the BKK Immigration office.

 

It's that little word "or" that counts

[Peterw42]

9 hours ago, ajnamoon said:

Really    thats strange   as when i first came here  i got a one year retirement extension from Thai  Consulate  in  Hull    UK

You would have got a one year OA visa, only available in your home country

[habanero]

If after all this it turns out that these income letters are worthless and have always been worthless. Are the affected embassies going to reimburse everyone that has ever gotten one of these?

 Wouldn't that be considered fraud on their part? 

 The B.E. is pretty much saying the letters are not valid and have really never been valid.

[rickudon]

3 minutes ago, superal said:

Hi Rick ,

           Not sure about a cost cutting exercise by the UK government cos for what they have to do in the form of affirmation is very little and for 2000 baht ? must be losing a lot of money , not that they give a f/f as they have already subcontracted other services . Have to wonder if there are other services that may disappear . I am going to visit my local Thai Immigration office next week to ask them what is acceptable to them , paperwork wise to obtain the visa . There is not too much consistency with the rules and law interpretation throughout the land so there may be less hurdles than we think .

I doubt it is a cost SAVING exercise - But if the foreign office is told to cut costs by 1%, they can sack a few staff and get rid of office space - expenditure falls, but the fact that income also falls is buried (maybe it all has to go to the treasury, so never was available to the embassy). I know this happens, because i worked for the government and this happened to my department all the time - there was always money for contractors, but not staff and facilities! In the end they outsourced the whole section i was in - and probably ended up paying the contractors more -  but you moved it to a different part of the budget - one which MP's friends could profit from at the taxpayers expense. They specifically removed cost saving as a reason from our outsourcing contract because i had helped cut costs BEFORE the contract was tendered - and no supplier could match our internal cost....... a number of our senior staff were well rewarded with external jobs after the outsourcing. Corruption? NO ... never!

[brianthainess]

18 hours ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Agreed.  This is from the BKK website.

 

 

This is a form given to me by an Immigration Officer in the BKK Immigration office.

 

????OR is clearly written at the end (at top) of number 5, and (on the form) at number 6 ????

[brianthainess]

18 hours ago, BobBKK said:

They don't accept a THAI bank book with obvious foreign income coming in monthly?  thats absurd 

Are you talking Thai bank or other ?

[soalbundy]

13 minutes ago, habanero said:

If after all this it turns out that these income letters are worthless and have always been worthless. Are the affected embassies going to reimburse everyone that has ever gotten one of these?

 Wouldn't that be considered fraud on their part? 

 The B.E. is pretty much saying the letters are not valid and have really never been valid.

No because they served their purpose and they were valid in as much as the letter was demanded by the IO and was given and accepted. Let us stop going down this 'worthless', 'isnt a true verification' road, it isn't helpful and only helps the BE.

[JLCrab]

7 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

????OR is clearly written at the end (at top) of number 5, and (on the form) at number 6 ????

So is the word 'proving' on number 6.

[joebrown]

18 hours ago, keith101 said:

I cant see why the Embassy wont issue these letters as they are a part of the British Government and the Pensions are issued from the same Government , it should be a very simple matter to confirm the applicants identity and issue the statement . The other possibility is that they are just to lazy to do the job there being paid for .

I have 3 pensions including the UK state one. The state pension on it's own isn't sufficient for my marriage extension, so my extension relies on the the support of annual documentation from the 2 pension companies.

Also, I draw my funds from ATMs in Thailand by my UK bank debit card, so none of it is paid into a Thai bank account. Yes, there is a record of withdrawing money shown on my UK bank statement, but I only have ATM withdrawal slips for money arriving in Thailand.

I'm hoping that my IMO will accept this as proof of income, as they have always asked for only the UK Embassy letter up to now.

Edited October 14, 2018 by joebrown
Add 1 word

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

Are you talking Thai bank or other ?

Should he have written THAI in bold letters as well as capital letters ?

[wgdanson]

1 hour ago, superal said:

the popular Transferwise does not

It does on my Bangkok Bank online statement and in my Bank book.

[chris2004]

18 hours ago, wgdanson said:

At present,(until 12th Dec) the Consulate will issue a letter saying that Mr.UK.Expat told them, and showed Bank Statements to confirm, that they have a minimum of Bht 65,000 per month going into their UK (or other country) bank account. The Consular workers CANNOT go to every pension provider, rent payer, investment company etc, to verify that these figures are genuine. If there was any investigation into any 'financial irregularities' the Consulate would be legally responsible. So that's why they are stopping issuing these letters. The USA is different in that Mr. USA.Expat SWEARS that the information is genuine and if anything is found to be wrong, the Expat is responsible. 

The Consulate now says that the Immigration will accept a regular deposit of at least Bht 65,000 per month into a Thai bank account, easily verified because it will say FTT (Foreign Transfer) on the bank statement or bank book. Is it that easy or not? 

The Bht 800,000 for at least three months has always been and will stay as an alternative. 

What is regular? I save my income in a UK bank and send it over 2 or 3 times a year when the rate is good. Is that regular or do they expect monthly income. Also i use Transferwise to transfer the money which (as i understand it) is deposited via another thai bank so would not show up as a FTT.

Edited October 14, 2018 by chris2004

[soalbundy]

14 hours ago, ukrules said:

About 3000 people per year.

 

She went on to say that the people using the money in the bank method vs the income letter from the embassy according to Thai immigration is about half and half for all British peole in Thailand using marriage or retirement extensions.

 

If this is accurate it means there's only 6000 British living in Thailand on these types of visas because we know there's only 3000 of these letters issued each year.

 

Somehow I thought it would be a lot more than that.

 

me too but since it's the BE she could be lying or doesn't know, strange that this doesn't bother them but the suddenly become very accurate with the embassy letter issue

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, chris2004 said:

What is reular? I save my income in a UK bank and send it over 2 or 3 times a year when the rate is good. Is that regular or do they expect monthly income. Also i use Transferwise to transfer the money which (as i understand it) is deposited via another thai bank so would not show up as a FTT.

My Transferwise deposits into my Bangkok Bank Savings Account show FTT on both online statements and in my bank book.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, wgdanson said:

My Transferwise deposits into my Bangkok Bank Savings Account show FTT on both online statements and in my bank book.

My British pension transfer to my Bangkok bank account is shown as BTN, n idea what that means, it doesnt show up in their abbreviation list

[Thaidream]

11 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

And incidentally one TV member called an acquaintance at the embassy who ( unofficially) said there was no change, nothing to worry about. It's posted somewhere in the masses of posts in the several threads running

Yes- concur- and I remember  the post-  statement was no changes for the foreseeable future. Says it all.  Something can be studied for an eternity and nothing happens-  It's the diplomatic way of speaking.  

[JackThompson]

11 hours ago, Thaidream said:

 Jack- agree completely- however- I have to believe the higher officer has delegated the IO to make that decision and using an agent facilitates that decision-  I would expect that agent business will increase- and also fees. 

Yes, "more and pricier agent-activity" is also my prediction - quite possibly exactly why this entire "letter validity" issue has come up in the first place. 

 

Expect a few agents and IOs to be thrown under the bus for show, though - like that agent using fake tax-documents, which was clearly not sanctioned, since they would not want a paper-trail like that.  Consider the published-law rejection-stamps used at the airport, which don't match the unpublished "laws" they just recited to the victim - no paper-trail remains of the "unpublished law" part of the story.

As to delegation of authority for signatures, the agents have been reported seen meeting directly with the head-man at some offices.  No problem if he has to personally sign-off, as long as those above him are in on the arrangement.  I'd love to see the percentage-distributions of the agent-fees, but I'd bet the time-spent per signature is well compensated.

[certacito]

18 hours ago, keith101 said:

I cant see why the Embassy wont issue these letters as they are a part of the British Government and the Pensions are issued from the same Government , it should be a very simple matter to confirm the applicants identity and issue the statement . The other possibility is that they are just to lazy to do the job there being paid for .

 

Please tell me you are joking? Do you honestly believe that no-one uses a private pension income? You seriously think that every Brit retiree is reliant on just the old aged pension?

[chris2004]

12 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

My Transferwise deposits into my Bangkok Bank Savings Account show FTT on both online statements and in my bank book. 

That's interesting, my Krungsri statements just show a code TN which applies to any transfer in.

[habanero]

20 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

No because they served their purpose and they were valid in as much as the letter was demanded by the IO and was given and accepted. Let us stop going down this 'worthless', 'isnt a true verification' road, it isn't helpful and only helps the BE.

Yes, they served their purpose. But, in the end. If they are invalid and the B.E. has pretty much attested to that fact and they knew it all along. Are they prepared to accept responsibility? Not sure why after all this and the can of worms they have opened for their citizens and possibly other nationalities, you are willing to let them off the hook.

[superal]

19 minutes ago, rickudon said:

I doubt it is a cost SAVING exercise - But if the foreign office is told to cut costs by 1%, they can sack a few staff and get rid of office space - expenditure falls, but the fact that income also falls is buried (maybe it all has to go to the treasury, so never was available to the embassy). I know this happens, because i worked for the government and this happened to my department all the time - there was always money for contractors, but not staff and facilities! In the end they outsourced the whole section i was in - and probably ended up paying the contractors more -  but you moved it to a different part of the budget - one which MP's friends could profit from at the taxpayers expense. They specifically removed cost saving as a reason from our outsourcing contract because i had helped cut costs BEFORE the contract was tendered - and no supplier could match our internal cost....... a number of our senior staff were well rewarded with external jobs after the outsourcing. Corruption? NO ... never!

 

 

I am surprised that consular/embassy tasks are allowed to be contracted out , especially to a company that is not of the same nationality .  Would have thought that embassy  activities would be sacrosanct  .

[luckyluke]

"BTN stands for Bahtnet. This is a method of transferring funds between Branches or Banks throughout the country."

 

- Thai Visa / August 2, 2011

[SheungWan]

48 minutes ago, habanero said:

If after all this it turns out that these income letters are worthless and have always been worthless. Are the affected embassies going to reimburse everyone that has ever gotten one of these?

 Wouldn't that be considered fraud on their part? 

 The B.E. is pretty much saying the letters are not valid and have really never been valid.

The issuance of the letters was subjected to review. The process considers what they are going to do going forwards. Past issuance is discounted.

[SooKee]

11 minutes ago, chris2004 said:

That's interesting, my Krungsri statements just show a code TN which applies to any transfer in.

Kasikorn (at least in their app) TW just shows as 'Deposit (Other Bank)', not sure what the book would show if I updated it often, I don't, normally take it in once a year when the system just does 2-3 lines, basically #,000 deposits and #,000 withdrawals.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, habanero said:

Yes, they served their purpose. But, in the end. If they are invalid and the B.E. has pretty much attested to that fact and they knew it all along. Are they prepared to accept responsibility? Not sure why after all this and the can of worms they have opened for their citizens and possibly other nationalities, you are willing to let them off the hook.

They are not invalid, they serve and served the purpose that they were meant for, regardless of the strict legal meaning. I am not letting them off the hook, on the contrary you are by saying that the letters are worthless, how can they be worthless if they served their purpose? who cares about the legalities, if it's good enough for the IO it is good enough for me, all other embassies go this route what makes the BE so high and mighty?

[Cricky]

4 hours ago, inThailand said:

Don't many pensioners have their money direct deposited into their Thai bank account? If so, won't a yearly bank statement and bank letter confirming such, suffice? 

  7 hours ago, inThailand said:

Then why are so many complaining? They are upset they can no longer falsify their income? 

 

I think your right in the above, the statement will only reflect their falsely declaring.

[superal]

26 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

My Transferwise deposits into my Bangkok Bank Savings Account show FTT on both online statements and in my bank book.

Hands up , I was wrong , just got access to my bank book and indeed it does show FTT which is surprising as there is not an international movement of funds , only a local transfer via another Thai bank account owned by TW . When your funds are withdrawn from your UK account they pass to a TW UK account and the message / instruction is wired to their Thai business branch to complete the transfer . So it must qualify as a Foreign Telegraphic Transfer .

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, VYCM said:

  7 hours ago, inThailand said:

Then why are so many complaining? They are upset they can no longer falsify their income? 

 

I think your right in the above, the statement will only reflect their falsely declaring.

Are you dyslexic ? No it won't suffice because up to this time the IO still demand the embassy letter regardless of the incoming money in your Thai bank book and as yet they have shown no sign of deviating from this practise.

[rickudon]

20 minutes ago, superal said:

 

 

I am surprised that consular/embassy tasks are allowed to be contracted out , especially to a company that is not of the same nationality .  Would have thought that embassy  activities would be sacrosanct  .

How about the new British passports? To be done by a French company ..... and Passport issuing by heaven knows who at the Trendy building ......

[wgdanson]

35 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

My British pension transfer to my Bangkok bank account is shown as BTN, n idea what that means, it doesnt show up in their abbreviation list

Nothing in my book explaining BTN, ask the bank. But there is a difference between having you pension sent direct to Bkk Bank and a Transferwise jobby.