Thai Airways investigate "deadhead pilot" delay drama

[kkerry]

There is discussion on some airline forums about what happened.

 

In brief, no first class as such, only business class on the flight involved. Some seats should have been blocked off in the ticketing system beforehand, which would have prevented any dramas on where the off-duty pilots would be seated. The captain would not allow the off-duty pilots to sit anywhere but where their employment contract stipulated, as he didn't want to create a precedent for future labor negotiations. Very poorly managed. Terrible PR. Paying passengers come first if you truly care about your customers. 

[bowerboy]

They were probably on points bookings.

 

I flew First Class to Frankfurt on Thai on the A380 recently for just 90k points and about $400 in taxes. In that case it would of been hard to argue against being downgraded. 

 

On a a side note Bill Heineke was sat next to me on the return flight.

 

Even in first though you still have to use the same incredibly poor choice of movies and programs on the IFE. Bed and food was good but service very poor compared to first on other airlines.

[Thian]

They should have waited one hour longer so ALL passengers could claim 250 euro for the delay...

[janclaes47]

6 hours ago, Toknarok said:

When an airline demands that a passenger give up a seat, the airline is required to pay double the passenger's one-way fare, up to $675 (£544) provided the passenger is put on a flight that arrives within one to two hours of the original.

I don't think you gonna make any first class passenger happy with that kind of compensation, as you can't even buy a one way economy ticket to Zurich for that price.

[Happy Grumpy]

I'm absolutely shocked by this.

 

 

A Thai flight was full! 

[Chelseafan]

9 hours ago, blackhorse said:

9 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

With 1st class full, were the majority RTA travellers? .....apparently, there were Business seats available but of course, that's never going to be good enough for Thai Air pilots.
Be interesting if further details come out.

Of course it wouldn't good enough for any pilot if they need proper sleep.

If a pilot needs "proper" sleep on a plane then that's even more worrying...

 

[Chelseafan]

2 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

I don't think you gonna make any first class passenger happy with that kind of compensation, as you can't even buy a one way economy ticket to Zurich for that price.

Absolutely. It's not only the compensation - I fly to Thailand a few times a year in FC and one of the highlights of the trip is the flight and experiencing FC service. I'd be pissed as hell if I had to downgrade

[Chelseafan]

3 hours ago, bowerboy said:

They were probably on points bookings.

 

I flew First Class to Frankfurt on Thai on the A380 recently for just 90k points and about $400 in taxes. In that case it would of been hard to argue against being downgraded. 

 

On a a side note Bill Heineke was sat next to me on the return flight.

 

Even in first though you still have to use the same incredibly poor choice of movies and programs on the IFE. Bed and food was good but service very poor compared to first on other airlines.

Why? You've paid enough money to the airline over the years to earn those points. I don't see why you should be downgraded.  Service on Thai is hit and miss. When it's good, it's very good; when it's bad, it's awful.

 

 

[smew]

Oh no, a poor deadhead pilot must fly first class a business class is no good anymore, unbelievable!, fire his sissy ass!

[Borzandy]

18 hours ago, webfact said:

this was a serious case and promised a full investigation into the matter

For sure and a 500 Baht fine will follow.

[Knowsitlike]

If you know this route then there is no first class on TG, as the post above mentioned it is a two class flight (Eco, Bus) but there must have been a plane change to 747-4 that has a first section that they can assign business class passengers into. Usually TG will block these (better) business seats for non active pilots and select frequent passengers to sit there, it is sometimes possible to book those seats online if you are quick or know which routes this case applies on. 

 

So these passengers were not first class passengers being demoted to business, technically they were business class being asked to move to another area of business due to something going wrong with the seat booking and allocation.

 

But, yes this was clearly badly handled by the pilot on duty to not realize that insisting on the usual policy and forcing to move these people, and to delay the flight so long would create bad press especially in this day of social media. Good relations is knowing when not to apply the rules, 99% of the time TG staff manage such things with class and good grace.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Knowsitlike

[arithai12]

A clear case of "me first, me first" (excuse the pun).

 

The flight captain and the two pilots who refused business seats should moved to toilet cleaning in Suvarnabhumi, not just for causing delay and discomfort to all other passengers (the source of their income), but because of the mentality that they have shown.

 

Incidentally, if you are a tired person who just needs to sleep before taking up duty, business seats nowadays are almost always lie-flat. Put up a "don't wake me up for meals" sticker and enjoy 10 hours of sleep. Btw, did they enjoy some fine wine in FC, before their next piloting duty?

[jimn]

59 minutes ago, Knowsitlike said:

If you know this route then there is no first class on TG, as the post above mentioned it is a two class flight (Eco, Bus) but there must have been a plane change to 747-4 that has a first section that they can assign business class passengers into. Usually TG will block these (better) business seats for non active pilots and select frequent passengers to sit there, it is sometimes possible to book those seats online if you are quick or know which routes this case applies on. 

 

So these passengers were not first class passengers being demoted to business, technically they were business class being asked to move to another area of business due to something going wrong with the seat booking and allocation.

 

But, yes this was clearly badly handled by the pilot on duty to not realize that insisting on the usual policy and forcing to move these people, and to delay the flight so long would create bad press especially in this day of social media. Good relations is knowing when not to apply the rules, 99% of the time TG staff manage such things with class and good grace.

Yes agreed. Similar to the explaination my wife told me. Thanks for saving me the trouble of trying to explain it. TA did nothing wrong its been blown up out of proportion.

[Mickmouse1]

It is well known that all airlines have allocated seats for such aircrew on long haul flights only.Usually they are in first or business class if available. They can not remove paying passengers from their seats but they will rearrange their seats at check in if they are full and the usual victim will be the eco class passengers.

[nong38]

Thai airways is not run for the convenience of passengers its run for the convenience of their employees and Thai Government officials, passengers come last should tell you something about who to fly with and who to give a miss to.

[IAMHERE]

I bet that airline loses money. Wouldn't surprise me if there is a new tax imposed to help support that airline. Not just 'deadhead' pilots, lots of brain dead functionals.

[thedemon]

A lot missing from this story. Firstly THAI routinely operate a B777 on TG970/971 which doesn't have First Class. The B747 was operated instead of the usual 777 for 4 days straight for some unexplained reason (could well be because it involves a subject that can't be discussed in Thailand).

 

So I very much doubt that it is even possible to buy a First Class ticket on that route and so all those sitting in those 14 First Class seats were likely "upgraded" anyway.  

 

I have no idea what those extra cockpit crew were doing on that flight (Deadhead isn't a term used at TG) but I do know that all THAI flights of that duration have 4 cockpit crew (2 Captains, 2 Co-Pilots) and so that they can rest during the flight. The B777 that would usually be operated has special bunks for Cockpit crew rest but the B747 doesn't so it is likely and logical that 2 First Class seats would have been blocked from sale for that purpose.

[new2here]

It sounds like these folks were classified as NRPS or non-revenue positive space. That means they are traveling with confirmed booking and are guaranteed a seat... just like a paying or revenue passenger.

 

the next element that must be addressed is what is TGs specific policy - and each airline may set their own - on NRPS passengers.

 

Some carriers have what’s known as MUST-RIDE NRPS bookings.. this means that IF the flight is oversold and the carrier has to deny boarding- known as involuntary denied boarding or IDB (after asking for volunteers), they can NOT choose to IDB the “must ride” — s/he must travel on that flight.

 

The next element that has to be addressed is class of travel.  This is where both carrier policy AND collective bargaining agreement (CBA) language come into play.

 

it IS possible that the two people in the story were traveling under CBA language that provides for and requires TG to provide first class travel (usally defined as the highest class of travel on any given aircraft model given that some aircraft are 2-cabin only) or any given class of seat.

 

IF that was the case, then TG would be correct to IDG (involuntary downgrade) a number of revenue passengers out of F down into C/J cabin *with proper IDG fare adjustment* being refunded.

 

The part that to me sounds odd is that normally all this is taken care of well in advance of boarding or departure.  Normally anyone traveling NRPS is booked in advance and local staff would know: a) they have folks traveling NRPS, b) they are “must rides” and c) their booking is one that can’t be IDGed 

 

So if this would have created an overbooking scenario in the F cabin, local staff would have sorted that out before check-in, decided who was going to be IDGed, altered the booking of the downgraded pax and cut whatever compensation due.

 

i would be very surprised if this took place airside or at time of boarding or departure.

 

I do agree that it was wise not to depart until the matter was properly sorted.

[Burma Bill]

20 hours ago, kkerry said:

 

Air Asia, Jetstar, Lion, where service can be hit and miss can at least trot out the excuse they are budget airlines where expectations are low... now confirmed Thai added to the list...

I have flown with AIR ASIA on many occasions within ASEAN and have NEVER experienced "hit and miss" service.

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, Knowsitlike said:

If you know this route then there is no first class on TG, as the post above mentioned it is a two class flight (Eco, Bus) but there must have been a plane change to 747-4 that has a first section that they can assign business class passengers into. Usually TG will block these (better) business seats for non active pilots and select frequent passengers to sit there, it is sometimes possible to book those seats online if you are quick or know which routes this case applies on. 

 

So these passengers were not first class passengers being demoted to business, technically they were business class being asked to move to another area of business due to something going wrong with the seat booking and allocation.

 

But, yes this was clearly badly handled by the pilot on duty to not realize that insisting on the usual policy and forcing to move these people, and to delay the flight so long would create bad press especially in this day of social media. Good relations is knowing when not to apply the rules, 99% of the time TG staff manage such things with class and good grace.

Where does it say, in the story, they were asked to move to a different area in business class?

[Bluespunk]

25 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

I have flown with AIR ASIA on many occasions within ASEAN and have NEVER experienced "hit and miss" service.

I won’t fly with them anymore after couple of experiences. 

 

Though to be honest, I also won’t fly Ryan air for the same reasons. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Bluespunk

[starky]

19 hours ago, mlkik said:

The first class passengers were aked if one of them would go and sit in economy and they refused saying that they had paid for first class so would not be moving.

They did exactly as I would if asked to move. The pilot could have sat in economy.

Where did you get that from? Source please. Apparently there may have been business class seats available. So you got the inside running just post a link

[starky]

46 minutes ago, new2here said:

It sounds like these folks were classified as NRPS or non-revenue positive space. That means they are traveling with confirmed booking and are guaranteed a seat... just like a paying or revenue passenger.

 

the next element that must be addressed is what is TGs specific policy - and each airline may set their own - on NRPS passengers.

 

Some carriers have what’s known as MUST-RIDE NRPS bookings.. this means that IF the flight is oversold and the carrier has to deny boarding- known as involuntary denied boarding or IDB (after asking for volunteers), they can NOT choose to IDB the “must ride” — s/he must travel on that flight.

 

The next element that has to be addressed is class of travel.  This is where both carrier policy AND collective bargaining agreement (CBA) language come into play.

 

it IS possible that the two people in the story were traveling under CBA language that provides for and requires TG to provide first class travel (usally defined as the highest class of travel on any given aircraft model given that some aircraft are 2-cabin only) or any given class of seat.

 

IF that was the case, then TG would be correct to IDG (involuntary downgrade) a number of revenue passengers out of F down into C/J cabin *with proper IDG fare adjustment* being refunded.

 

The part that to me sounds odd is that normally all this is taken care of well in advance of boarding or departure.  Normally anyone traveling NRPS is booked in advance and local staff would know: a) they have folks traveling NRPS, b) they are “must rides” and c) their booking is one that can’t be IDGed 

 

So if this would have created an overbooking scenario in the F cabin, local staff would have sorted that out before check-in, decided who was going to be IDGed, altered the booking of the downgraded pax and cut whatever compensation due.

 

i would be very surprised if this took place airside or at time of boarding or departure.

 

I do agree that it was wise not to depart until the matter was properly sorted.

A TV rarity! A reasonable, well written response by someone who may actually have some clue about that which they are speaking.

[tingtong]

me wondering what happens on airplanes that has -god forbid- no first, or even business class seats on their configuration.

can a "deadhead" just seat in a normal seat like everyone else?

 

if the answer is he can, that begs the question, why the most paying passangers they dare to bother to give up a seat on first class?

kind a wonder if the "deadhead" was a codeword this case for a "big head", some sort of thai wannabe VIP, like to get on the plane, but demand the best the same time, up to his "status". it wouldnt be a first.

 

[jaf3]

Last time I got bumped from biz to economy due to a similar situation I was paid $2400 and given an exit row seat - Turkish Airlines though 

[scorecard]

21 hours ago, blackhorse said:

21 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

With 1st class full, were the majority RTA travellers? .....apparently, there were Business seats available but of course, that's never going to be good enough for Thai Air pilots.
Be interesting if further details come out.

Of course it wouldn't good enough for any pilot if they need proper sleep.

Well 2 points:

 

- First class was full therefore there would be continuous activity both crew and passengers walking around, some noise from food carts and from crew talking to passengers etc., so good / total sleep is far from guaranteed.'

 

- Why did they refuse to use the 'secret' room on the aircraft which is there for cabin crew needing rest and sleep?

 

Additional point, I would hope that most of Thai's pilots have more intelligence and brain power and common sense than displayed here by these pilots. On a twist of that If they are lacking in intelligence and capabilities to do an adult analysis of this situation then I wonder how they would react / behave in an emergency?

 

 

[chainarong]

22 hours ago, starky said:

So if the site they are quoting is correct a "deadhead" must fly? Once that question is properly established we can argue where they should have been sat. Then obviously can they not sit in business? But besides all that good on the pilots for sticking by their brothers. There's a lot more that need to be explained here for mine.

The deadhead sometimes has commitments when arriving at destination hence the need for a bit more comfort than economy, all it means one person has interrupted maybe ( depending on position ) the travel plans of many at another location, better to play the game , who knows you just might get a freebie or big discount next time U fly Thai.

[scorecard]

18 minutes ago, tingtong said:

me wondering what happens on airplanes that has -god forbid- no first, or even business class seats on their configuration.

can a "deadhead" just seat in a normal seat like everyone else?

 

if the answer is he can, that begs the question, why the most paying passangers they dare to bother to give up a seat on first class?

kind a wonder if the "deadhead" was a codeword this case for a "big head", some sort of thai wannabe VIP, like to get on the plane, but demand the best the same time, up to his "status". it wouldnt be a first.

 

 

or 'braindead', or 'adult common sense dead'.

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, chainarong said:

The deadhead sometimes has commitments when arriving at destination hence the need for a bit more comfort than economy, all it means one person has interrupted maybe ( depending on position ) the travel plans of many at another location, better to play the game , who knows you just might get a freebie or big discount next time U fly Thai.

 

On the other hand if I had paid for 2 first class tickets (total cost beyond belief, hundreds of thousands of Baht), I would be absolutely expecting that I'm not going to be asked to bump down, except for a serious medical emergency, but not for airline regular operational needs.

[Cereal]

Let me fill some of you in on what this story is about and why it happened from the perspective of a person who worked as a cabin crew member (flight attendant or FA) for 10 years for an international long haul carrier.

 

1) A deadhead crew member is on duty. It is quite possible they will be expected to work shortly, or at times, almost immediately after arrival.

2) Very often, I think especially in this case as it was only a single pilot, the original pilot expected to fly had an issue: illness, accident, injury... thus the DH pilot was probably called at the last possible moment. He or she may have just returned from a workout at the gym, a 4 hour hike...whatever, and could be tired already. He or she may have been on reserve and at the very end of the potential calling period.

3) Because DH crew members are on duty, they are considered to be working that is why it is SOP (standard operating procedure) for them to be in uniform.

4) It is SOP in collective bargaining agreements that if you are DH'ing you sit in business class. The reasoning for this was mentioned above. The DH'ing crew member may be scheduled to work/fly as soon as they arrive therefore it is imperative they are as comfortable as possible and able to sleep/rest during the DH period.

5) It's also important to note that a DH'ing crew member can be called into service on the flight they are DH'ing on if they are qualified on that aircraft. FA's are qualified on every aircraft type an airline flies, pilots usually 1 aircraft type - the one they fly, although they may have been and may still be qualified to fly other aircraft types if they have recently moved to a different aircraft due to promotion

6) Because a DH'ing crew member is on duty and will start a workday upon arrival, it is clear and obvious why they take precedence over a passenger. This is because the pilot (for example) may be a long haul heavy wide body pilot and it is more cost effective to the airline to accommodate 1 passenger who is disrupted than potentially cancel a flight and have to accommodate 300 or more passengers on the other end.

7) DH'ing is absolutely normal. I've done it countless times. DH'ing counts as duty hours not flying hours.

example: Cereal at home in Vancouver. Crew scheduling calls. Cereal, we need you to DH to Tokyo, you'll have a 3 hour wait in Narita then you'll pick up flight 111 and return to YVR okay. You're on duty in 90 minutes, your flight leaves in 2 hours.

???? Everything this airline did sounds to me like it was exactly as it should have been done.

It ain't all that glamorous a gig when you've done it. That's why I don't do it anymore!