dick dasterdly Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just now, OneMoreFarang said: It's amazing reading the posts here. Some suggest Davis or Raab should negotiate a better deal. Didn't they have that job already? Why didn't they come up with such a better deal? I am sure lots of people would love to know which better deals are out there. And please not any deals with cakes and cherries and unicorns. Real deals which are realistic and which would have a chance to be approved by the EU and the UK. Come on all your experts, where are your realistic deals? Or maybe just one realistic deal which the UK parliament and the EU would sign. Bring it on! You're missing the point that we already know that the eu has no intention of genuinely negotiating until the uk declares that it is LEAVING. Edit - At the moment it knows that uk politicians have no intention of leaving - as proven by May's 'leave in name only deal - or accept there will be no brexit'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 49 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said: You may well be right. So why are hardcore Brexiteers so against consulting the people again????? For the same reason that Waddle and Pearce weren't given 'peoples penalties' in 1990. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneMoreFarang Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 minute ago, billd766 said: Why not finish the first referendum before starting another? Imagine you sit together with your family in your small kitchen. And you all think about your new house. It will be a big house with a big swimming pool, marble everywhere and all the trimmings. There and then you all decide: That's what we all agree, let's do it. And then, after you get your first quotations, you realize that your dream won't happen. It all sounded good but it was simply unrealistic. So what do you do now? Hold on to that unrealistic dream? Somehow we will make it, we just have to make a better deal with the construction company? Or maybe does it make sense to think again about realistic options - even if that dream felt that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 22 minutes ago, Prissana Pescud said: Can't quite come to grips with what you posted. These rioters are not representative of anyone. They burned cars, smashed up small businesses, looted, threw petrol bombs, stopped people from going about their lawful business. Actually they do represent something. They represent the right wing neo nazis, the anarchists and losers. Suggest you don a flouro shirt and join them. Maybe some pepper spray and tear gas may make you see reality. To help you get a grip: We're not talking about the Giletes Jaunes. We are referring to the British working class and Brexiteers in the video clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persimmon Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Its the old tactic that has worked so well up till now,especially with immigration.Anyone who expresses concern about large scale immigration is branded as some kind of far right Nazi extremist.Very effective in shutting down debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 15 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said: It's amazing reading the posts here. Some suggest Davis or Raab should negotiate a better deal. Didn't they have that job already? Why didn't they come up with such a better deal? I am sure lots of people would love to know which better deals are out there. And please not any deals with cakes and cherries and unicorns. Real deals which are realistic and which would have a chance to be approved by the EU and the UK. Come on all your experts, where are your realistic deals? Or maybe just one realistic deal which the UK parliament and the EU would sign. Bring it on! Precisely. There is no better deal until the uk declares that it is LEAVING! Only then will the eu start genuinely negotiating. Sadly, all (?) MPs (even purportedly leavers....) are saying that the uk needs to re-negotiate..... Completely pointless as has already been proven..... Edit - Sorry for largely duplicate post, but TV is playing up again - so I re-wrote the post (from memory) to include an additional point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneMoreFarang Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: You're missing the point that we already know that the eu has no intention of genuinely negotiating until the uk declares that it is LEAVING. Edit - At the moment it knows that uk politicians have no intention of leaving - as proven by May's 'leave in name only deal - or accept there will be no brexit'! Please describe how your preferred deal would look like which you think the UK and the EU would sign. Where do you think would the EU make amendments which they currently say they won't do? As far as I see the EU might be willing to make some small more or less cosmetic amendments. But they are all by far not big enough to convince the UK parliament. What do you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damascase Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Precisely. There is no better deal until the uk declares that it is LEAVING! Only then will the eu start genuinely negotiating. Sadly, all (?) MPs (even purportedly leavers....) are saying that the uk needs to re-negotiate..... Completely pointless as has already been proven..... The UK has already declared that it leaves, if I am not mistaken. How would this scare the EU into re-negotiations now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, damascase said: The UK has already declared that it leaves, if I am not mistaken. How would this scare the EU into re-negotiations now? No, May is now saying it is either accept her 'leave in name only' 'deal', including paying 39bn for the privilege..... or accept that there will be no brexit! There is clearly no reason at all for the eu to re-negotiate - unless it is to help the govt. pursue it's agenda of 'leave in name only' with a 39bn payment to the eu.... - but in a way that the uk govt. can possibly sell to the electorate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just now, OneMoreFarang said: Please describe how your preferred deal would look like which you think the UK and the EU would sign. Where do you think would the EU make amendments which they currently say they won't do? As far as I see the EU might be willing to make some small more or less cosmetic amendments. But they are all by far not big enough to convince the UK parliament. What do you suggest? A trade deal - i.e. free trading between the uk and eu, with the uk agreeing to abide by eu regulations as to quality. But I agree that the eu has no intention of agreeing to this unless the uk states that it is LEAVING, without any payment to the eu. I also agree that the uk parliament is looking for a 'leave in name only' deal that it can sell to the electorate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritManToo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, damascase said: The UK has already declared that it leaves, if I am not mistaken. How would this scare the EU into re-negotiations now? They don't believe the UK will do it. And I agree with their belief, none of the people in power wants to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve73 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 The referendum voted out... That is what our elected members of parliament (and non-elected ministers & lords) must do if democracy is to be upheld... Not half out, or a little bit out, or mostly out, but totally OUT. If there is a desire to "get back in" in some areas, then these can be negotiated from the new position of being out, assuming both the EU and the UK consider there are some mutual benefits in doing so, but tying to salvage some parts whilst trying to extricate the UK from others will always lead to conflict - as we are seeing. I would even go so far as to say that in perhaps a decade or so of going it alone, if the UK wanted to rejoin, then (probably following another referendum) we could reapply, on the then going terms, or if in the event that fish-face (or others) have managed to devolve Scotland or other regions, then they also could apply in their own right. ...assuming of course that the EU still actually exists at that time. A failure to enact the democratic choice of its people creates a situation where we are no better than a dictatorship (or probably better described as a many headed "Hydra"torship. In that event, all vestige or appearance of freedom is lost. Perhaps sadly, it is already too late...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGareth2 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, steve73 said: The referendum voted out... That is what our elected members of parliament (and non-elected ministers & lords) must do if democracy is to be upheld... Not half out, or a little bit out, or mostly out, but totally OUT. If there is a desire to "get back in" in some areas, then these can be negotiated from the new position of being out, assuming both the EU and the UK consider there are some mutual benefits in doing so, but tying to salvage some parts whilst trying to extricate the UK from others will always lead to conflict - as we are seeing. I would even go so far as to say that in perhaps a decade or so of going it alone, if the UK wanted to rejoin, then (probably following another referendum) we could reapply, on the then going terms, or if in the event that fish-face (or others) have managed to devolve Scotland or other regions, then they also could apply in their own right. ...assuming of course that the EU still actually exists at that time. A failure to enact the democratic choice of its people creates a situation where we are no better than a dictatorship (or probably better described as a many headed "Hydra"torship. In that event, all vestige or appearance of freedom is lost. Perhaps sadly, it is already too late...! the UK parliamentary system has been likened to an elective dictator ship for a term of years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welovesundaysatspace Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Good to see that the Boris and the Brexiteers still haven’t returned from cloud cuckoo land. Renegotiate the deal? With whom? Would that be the same people that offered the easiest deal in history? If it wasn’t so sad for all the sane and reasonable people, some who we know personally, I would say this circus is quite amusing. Almost three years real life soap opera now; like the Truman Show recorded in a mental home and whole Europe can watch some nutters discussing how they will build castles in the sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retiredandhappyhere Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 hours ago, Grouse said: I would not be at all surprised. We've all learnt a great deal over the past two or three years ago. I've learnt that there are FAR more poorly educated people in England than I ever expected. I just hope that our much vaunted representative democracy does what it says on the tin. Once again, you are displaying your usual arrogance in claiming that anyone who has a different view to your own must be "poorly educated". Do you ever display even a modicum of humility in your everyday life, which would possibly make the life of anyone who has contact with you slightly more bearable? I can detect nothing but condescension in virtually all of your posts and, believe me, I have tried to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said: Once again, you are displaying your usual arrogance in claiming that anyone who has a different view to your own must be "poorly educated". Do you ever display even a modicum of humility in your everyday life, which would possibly make the life of anyone who has contact with you slightly more bearable? I can detect nothing but condescension in virtually all of your posts and, believe me, I have tried to be fair. Europe has just agreed that the U.K. May remain with all rebates and opt-outs in place. Excellent news! Now that IS A GREAT DEAL! It fixes everything for everyone. We even get to avoid paying a 39B lump sum! ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotsira Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 37 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said: Please describe how your preferred deal would look like which you think the UK and the EU would sign. Where do you think would the EU make amendments which they currently say they won't do? As far as I see the EU might be willing to make some small more or less cosmetic amendments. But they are all by far not big enough to convince the UK parliament. What do you suggest? First and foremost. Walk away without any deal on the 29th March and continue with WTO Rules. Then, once the UK is free from the shackles of the customs union and common market, and on a level playing field with the EU, they can offer the EU a free trade deal that is fair for both sides and meets the criteria set out in the referendum of what Brexit actually means. At the same time the UK can also offer free trade deals to the rest of the world, if the EU doesn't like it, then they will be the ones worse off. The key point here is a CLEAN break away from the EU first, before everything else will take it's course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGareth2 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Grouse said: Europe has just agreed that the U.K. May remain with all rebates and opt-outs in place. Excellent news! Now that IS A GREAT DEAL! It fixes everything for everyone. We even get to avoid paying a 39B lump sum! ???? did you think they would rule otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thingamabob Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Another referendum would achieve nothing but a similar result as the earlier one. Just leave on WTO terms. Any further discussions to be held in London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawadee1947 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 9 hours ago, Prissana Pescud said: Well, one reason the EU would renegotiate is because other than Britain, some northern countries and Germany, most of the other EU countries are basket cases. Take a close look at the economies of Greece, Italy, France, most of the eastern countries. These are basket cases and the EU should be thinking of ways to get rid of them. Belgium is now in almost open revolt at EU policies and more countries will follow. The EU ideal is dead as is to be expected from such diverse economies as anarchist Italy, Greece and France and stable, staple, moderate countries such as Germany, Scandinavia and Britain. The EU needs Britain, not the other way around. Happy days are here again.. She's leaving now, bye bye. You don't have a monopoly on very old tunes. Send your comment on fool's Day again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 31 minutes ago, Grouse said: Europe has just agreed that the U.K. May remain with all rebates and opt-outs in place. Excellent news! Now that IS A GREAT DEAL! It fixes everything for everyone. We even get to avoid paying a 39B lump sum! ???? ...is why it's unlikely to gain any traction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damascase Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 31 minutes ago, AGareth2 said: did you think they would rule otherwise Well, the European Union took a different position that would have required the 27 Member States’ agreement on the withdrawal and its conditions. The Court of Justice has now ruled against that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 ahhhh! what a relief, a heavy burden fell from my shoulders yet another Brexit thread, have been desperately waiting for that .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGareth2 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 don\t pay the 39b until we are totally out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGareth2 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: ahhhh! what a relief, a heavy burden fell from my shoulders yet another Brexit thread, have been desperately waiting for that .... ah for you to join ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydebolle Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said: "Retire Theresa May; plenty of little seats waiting for people like her in Brussels" Not if we brexit..... Well, she tried to bend the referendum result but failed. Maybe Junker and his alcoholis have a back row for such failed cases. Smaller seats but still comfortable considering the productivity of those in the back and front seats ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewsterbudgen Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said: What photo? "maybe I was generalising a bit" A bit?!! You were pursuing the typical remainer line that anyone who supports leave is "far-right, neo-Nazi, Islamophobic, racist, xenophobes"!!! The photo of the extreme right wing "Tommy Robinson" march in the post I quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunroaming Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 hours ago, webfact said: LONDON (Reuters) - Former British foreign minister Boris Johnson said on Sunday Theresa May could stay on as prime minister and go back to Brussels and renegotiate the divorce agreement if she loses a crucial parliamentary vote on Tuesday on her Brexit deal. Tell you what Boris. If the deal is rejected as it will be, why don't you stand against May and then you can go and negotiate the great deal that you promised the people in the campaign? Same reason you ran away in the first place perhaps? Snivelling coward? Absolutely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said: The photo of the extreme right wing "Tommy Robinson" march in the post I quoted. I'm no fan of TR/SY-L but what's 'extremely right wing' about him? During yesterdays march all I saw in his audience were several suited-and-booted veterans in cenotaph rig, and several respectable women in their 60s from professional backgrounds inc several who were in wheelchairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunroaming Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Grouse said: Europe has just agreed that the U.K. May remain with all rebates and opt-outs in place. Excellent news! Now that IS A GREAT DEAL! It fixes everything for everyone. We even get to avoid paying a 39B lump sum! ???? While that should be the reaction, you know as well as I do it won't be. Sensible hats were thrown away long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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