Update: New Thai immigration rules for income!

[007 RED]

FYI – I have also had sight of the document referred to by the OP.  It was shown to me earlier this week by Mrs MoneyBaht’s old university friend who happens to be a senior officer (rank of Colonel) in the Thai Immigration Bureau HQ.

 

The document in question is not a Police Order, but rather a memorandum clarifying the situation with regards to “Criteria for Consideration of Granting an Alien Extension of Stay in the Kingdom According to Clause 2 of Order No. 327/2557 of the Royal Thai Police dated 30 June 2014” with particular with reference to Sections 2.18 and 2.22 which relate to the granting of extensions of stay for foreigner being a family member of a Thai National or in the case of retirement respectively.

 

This memorandum was dated 20 December 2018 and has subsequently been sent to all Immigration Offices.

 

The main indicators within the memorandum are as follows:

 

1)   Money in the Bank – in the case of marriage 400,000 Baht, or 800,000 Baht ‘seasoned’ as previously prior to date of application for extension of stay base upon marriage or retirement respectively.  Documents required are letter from Thai bank confirming amount and passbook showing amount in bank for required period of time, or

 

2)   Letter from applicant’s Embassy confirming that applicant has a verified income of 40,000 Baht per month in the case of marriage extension or 65,000 Baht per month in the case of retirement extension, or

 

3)   A letter from a Thai bank stating that the applicant has deposited at least 40,000 Baht per month for 12 months from an overseas source in the case of marriage extension, or 65,000 Baht per month for 12 months from and overseas source in the case of a retirement extension.  As well as the letter applicants will also be required to show their passbook to confirm the deposits.

 

With regards to 3) above, it is indicated that in the first 12 months, from the date of the memo being issued, the 12 months requirement shall be adjusted accordingly, that is to say a person applying for an extension of stay in August 2019 will only be required for example to show the overseas deposits for the previous 8 months.

 

There is no mention within the document of splitting the required funds between ‘Money in Bank’ and ‘Monthly Income’.

 

I have asked for a copy of the memorandum which is in Thai and will post it as and when I get it.

[nasa123]

Everyone must understand that both the government and especially the Immigration want us all out of this country. In the future they will only focus on quality tourists whatever it is bye bye Panama next. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, btw65 said:

What about people on marriage extension who have their pension paid into an overseas Bank fortnightly.  Which means some months are less than the necessary 40,000 monthly and others are more.  

 

From all indications, it matters not one whit what amounts are paid into any overseas bank or when they're paid into that bank.

 

All that will matter, supposedly, is what's transferred by you into your THAI bank account and that it be done on a monthly basis in at least the required 40K or 65K amounts.

 

[DrJack54]

You have to laugh at 24 pages of nonesence. Monthly transfers from home country mean ZIP. 

I can very easily arrange monthly transfer from say Australia via the many accounts I have in au or from relative/friend ac. Wash and repeat. This whole topic is a crock. Also as ubon pointed out on page 1 ..nothing new here. 

24 pages of tripe

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

3 hours ago, jackdd said:

I don't think that the immigration officers get money from Thailand Elite visas. The company behind Thailand Elite is owned by the government, so the immigration officers will just follow the rules and don't try to get some extra money from them.

Oh don't spoil his fun. If you asked the guy what is a solar eclipse, he might say that is when an agent arranges for the moon to get between the sun and the earth.

I did not specify immigration as the "senior administrator" in that example - likely someone higher up.  But, I recall when the elite was re-introduced, and people were complaining about the exorbitant cost (especially as it was not "lifetime" any more), and one of the rationales presented was, "Some of that money has to go to immigration."

 

Do you really think immigration went along with that visa-option - a huge lump-sum being paid in cash up-front for each one - without compensation?  The whole plan falls flat on its face unless immigration lets elite-visa holders in without a fuss.

 

We may disagree on exactly what shenanigans they are playing, but the Lunar-Fantasy is that such things would occur here, with those sums of money, among those players, without grease applied liberally at all potential points of friction.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

3)   A letter from a Thai bank stating that the applicant has deposited at least 40,000 Baht per month for 12 months from an overseas source in the case of marriage extension, or 65,000 Baht per month for 12 months from and overseas source in the case of a retirement extension. 

 

That sounds like a new kind of Thai bank letter not previously issued here before. I hope Thai Immigration has told the many Thai banks that that's what they're going to need to provide to their foreign customers, and the Thai banks of course have quickly moved ahead, in customary fashion, to put that kind of letter into their systems....

 

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, ParadiseLost said:

Would that require leaving the country to work? If you extend and do not leave for an entire year, how to justify income?

Then, if you do have to leave all the time (appearances), why extend at all?

 

If there is no question asked about the retirement income source, will they really just accept married guys 40k per month transfers?

 

Say I am working here illegally, I can easily transfer money overseas and back. Claim I am working online...

 

Yes it will cost money to do this but it will take away the need to go through all their current BS to validate local income...

Excepting those from very poor countries (not involved in the embassy-letter fiasco), why would the expat work here illegally?  Ok, maybe a handful of "scuba instructors" do this - and new English teachers might have to work on Tourist Visas illegally for a few months, but can usually squeeze the work-permit paperwork out of the school eventually. 

 

For the rest, competing with Burmese for "under the table" maid or fishing jobs is not too appealing - especially since the "L-Visa" option makes it easier for them than someone from a wealthier nation.  Good paying jobs tend to come with work-permits.

[elviajero]

35 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Is there anything, anywhere that says the income must come from outside Thailand ?

 

I'm going to be very surprised if this is the case.

Yes.

From the old immigration website

http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php?page=faq

22. Question : What is the required age of the alien wisthing to stay in Thailand with the reason of Retirement?

Answer : For reasons to stay of Retirement, the alien must be 50 year of age or older and must have been granted a Non-Immigrant visa, firstly. More over, the said alien must have evidences to verify his/her financial status of not less than 65,000 Baht per month or 800,000 Baht per year. Evidences showing financial support are as follows;        1.  In case of having money in the bank account (Saving/Fix deposit) of any bank located in Thailand.        -  The updated bank passbook on the date of application submission showing money in the account of not less than 800,000 Baht which has been deposited and consecutively held of such amount for 3 months. ( Except the first application for this reason, that such amount should be deposited and held for 60 days)      -  Letter from the bank certified the current account in the bank of not less than 800,000 Baht; or          2.2  In case of having any other income from abroad such as pension, social welfare      -  Letter from the applicant’s Embassy or consulate in Thailand verifying their pension or other income of the applicant which must not be less than 65,000 Baht per month. Or;

[007 RED]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That sounds like a new kind of Thai bank letter not previously issued here before. I hope Thai Immigration has told the many Thai banks that that's what they're going to need to provide to their foreign customers, and the Thai banks of course have quickly moved ahead, in customary fashion, to put that kind of letter into their systems....

 

I was at Bangkok Bank HQ on Thursday (3rd) morning and spoke with the manageress of the overseas deposit/exchange section about the new requirement and she said that TI has been in discussions with them and they are already preparing a letter that will meet TI requirements.

[MikeOKitches]

23 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

The information I got is that they will still accept the income letters from the embassies through their validity.

I got my income affidavit notarized by the US Embassy here in Bangkok on November 30, 2018. I was told by the embassy at the time that the letter (income affidavit) I executed (and they notarized) would be valid for 6 months from date of issuance. That would mean it's valid until May 31, 2018.  My Retirement Visa renewal is scheduled for March 31, 2019. I'm hearing conflicting reports from people who've been to different Thai Immigration centers. Some say they won't accept the letter in 2019 at all. Is there any credible source that can definitely tell me if I can use my November 30, 2018 letter (income affidavit) in March 2019 when I renew my Retirement Visa? Thanks in advance for anyone who can shed some light on this for me.  

[Pib]

 

Quote

3)   A letter from a Thai bank stating that the applicant has deposited at least 40,000 Baht per month for 12 months from an overseas source in the case of marriage extension, or 65,000 Baht per month for 12 months from and overseas source in the case of a retirement extension.  As well as the letter applicants will also be required to show their passbook to confirm the deposits.

 

Well, I expect this new letter will probably take a few days to generate since it's would require research on the bank's part since for example to get 12 month statement now the bank normally tells you to come back in a few days after ordering it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, 007 RED said:

I was at Bangkok Bank HQ on Thursday (3rd) morning and spoke with the manageress of the overseas deposit/exchange section about the new requirement and she said that TI has been in discussions with them and they are already preparing a letter that will meet TI requirements.

 

And it will be interesting to know just how BKKB and the others will determine what are incoming foreign transfers. As in, will the popular Transferwise method meet the requirement, especially among banks other than BKKB where the TFW deposits don't seem to get listed an international transfers.

[DrJack54]

14 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I did not specify immigration as the "senior administrator" in that example - likely someone higher up.  But, I recall when the elite was re-introduced, and people were complaining about the exorbitant cost (especially as it was not "lifetime" any more), and one of the rationales presented was, "Some of that money has to go to immigration."

 

Do you really think immigration went along with that visa-option - a huge lump-sum being paid in cash up-front for each one - without compensation?  The whole plan falls flat on its face unless immigration lets elite-visa holders in without a fuss.

 

We may disagree on exactly what shenanigans they are playing, but the Lunar-Fantasy is that such things would occur here, with those sums of money, among those players, without grease applied liberally at all potential points of friction.

Related to the OP exactly how?

As per usual tripe

[Pib]

51 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

FYI – I have also had sight of the document referred to by the OP.  It was shown to me earlier this week by Mrs MoneyBaht’s old university friend who happens to be a senior officer (rank of Colonel) in the Thai Immigration Bureau HQ.

 

.....

Excellent post....thanks.  It follows what I fully expected....the KISS approach and "Thai bank" docs required (foreign income docs, ATM slips, etc., not acceptable).

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Pib

[kannot]

5 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

If you have the money for that you could easily deposit Baht 800,000 or Baht 400,000 in a Thai bank and have a more or less permanent solution and still have that money in the bank to use for 9 months of the year until it needed to be topped up or in an emergency.

Ive done the 400k for years  was  looking more at the "forced"  insurance  possibility at a later  stage.

My   400k just sits there doing nothing, doesnt bother me.

[david555]

30 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

FYI – I have also had sight of the document referred to by the OP.  It was shown to me earlier this week by Mrs MoneyBaht’s old university friend who happens to be a senior officer (rank of Colonel) in the Thai Immigration Bureau HQ.

 

The document in question is not a Police Order, but rather a memorandum clarifying the situation with regards to “Criteria for Consideration of Granting an Alien Extension of Stay in the Kingdom According to Clause 2 of Order No. 327/2557 of the Royal Thai Police dated 30 June 2014” with particular with reference to Sections 2.18 and 2.22 which relate to the granting of extensions of stay for foreigner being a family member of a Thai National or in the case of retirement respectively.

 

This memorandum was dated 20 December 2018 and has subsequently been sent to all Immigration Offices.

 

The main indicators within the memorandum are as follows:

 

1)   Money in the Bank – in the case of marriage 400,000 Baht, or 800,000 Baht ‘seasoned’ as previously prior to date of application for extension of stay base upon marriage or retirement respectively.  Documents required are letter from Thai bank confirming amount and passbook showing amount in bank for required period of time, or

 

2)   Letter from applicant’s Embassy confirming that applicant has a verified income of 40,000 Baht per month in the case of marriage extension or 65,000 Baht per month in the case of retirement extension, or

 

3)   A letter from a Thai bank stating that the applicant has deposited at least 40,000 Baht per month for 12 months from an overseas source in the case of marriage extension, or 65,000 Baht per month for 12 months from and overseas source in the case of a retirement extension.  As well as the letter applicants will also be required to show their passbook to confirm the deposits.

 

With regards to 3) above, it is indicated that in the first 12 months, from the date of the memo being issued, the 12 months requirement shall be adjusted accordingly, that is to say a person applying for an extension of stay in August 2019 will only be required for example to show the overseas deposits for the previous 8 months.

 

There is no mention within the document of splitting the required funds between ‘Money in Bank’ and ‘Monthly Income’.

 

I have asked for a copy of the memorandum which is in Thai and will post it as and when I get it.

This phrase could mean trouble for those Embassy's who still give the letter out  " Letter from applicant’s Embassy confirming that applicant has a verified income of ……)

 

I never saw this "verified" on the Embassy letter when I used it first year of my RE. extension  (now the 800k method) This could give surprises....

Edited January 5, 2019 by david555

[Lovethailandelite]

50 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Is there anything, anywhere that says the income must come from outside Thailand ?

 

I'm going to be very surprised if this is the case.

Post 343 above is the transcript you are all looking for.

[Lovethailandelite]

29 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

FYI – I have also had sight of the document referred to by the OP.  It was shown to me earlier this week by Mrs MoneyBaht’s old university friend who happens to be a senior officer (rank of Colonel) in the Thai Immigration Bureau HQ.

 

The document in question is not a Police Order, but rather a memorandum clarifying the situation with regards to “Criteria for Consideration of Granting an Alien Extension of Stay in the Kingdom According to Clause 2 of Order No. 327/2557 of the Royal Thai Police dated 30 June 2014” with particular with reference to Sections 2.18 and 2.22 which relate to the granting of extensions of stay for foreigner being a family member of a Thai National or in the case of retirement respectively.

 

This memorandum was dated 20 December 2018 and has subsequently been sent to all Immigration Offices.

 

The main indicators within the memorandum are as follows:

 

1)   Money in the Bank – in the case of marriage 400,000 Baht, or 800,000 Baht ‘seasoned’ as previously prior to date of application for extension of stay base upon marriage or retirement respectively.  Documents required are letter from Thai bank confirming amount and passbook showing amount in bank for required period of time, or

 

2)   Letter from applicant’s Embassy confirming that applicant has a verified income of 40,000 Baht per month in the case of marriage extension or 65,000 Baht per month in the case of retirement extension, or

 

3)   A letter from a Thai bank stating that the applicant has deposited at least 40,000 Baht per month for 12 months from an overseas source in the case of marriage extension, or 65,000 Baht per month for 12 months from and overseas source in the case of a retirement extension.  As well as the letter applicants will also be required to show their passbook to confirm the deposits.

 

With regards to 3) above, it is indicated that in the first 12 months, from the date of the memo being issued, the 12 months requirement shall be adjusted accordingly, that is to say a person applying for an extension of stay in August 2019 will only be required for example to show the overseas deposits for the previous 8 months.

 

There is no mention within the document of splitting the required funds between ‘Money in Bank’ and ‘Monthly Income’.

 

I have asked for a copy of the memorandum which is in Thai and will post it as and when I get it.

Post 343 above is the document. The mention of the combination method and seasoning requirements etc are in another document not yet released.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Lovethailandelite

[ukrules]

5 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Post 343 above is the transcript you are all looking for.

Ok, I'm now very surprised.

Edited January 5, 2019 by ukrules

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

 

Well, I expect this new letter will probably take a few days to generate since it's would require research on the bank's part since for example to get 12 month statement now the bank normally tells you to come back in a few days after ordering it.

 

And yet Immigration in the past at least has, depending on the office, IIRC wanted the bank account balance letters to be dated either the day of your extension application or sometimes the day before. So that, if it remains the same for monthly transfer letters, may end up dictating just when monthly income applicants can go to Immigration.

 

 

 

 

[elviajero]

4 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Post 343 above is the document. The mention of the combination method and seasoning requirements etc are in another document not yet released.

All that’s changing is how income can be proven, so, IMO, there is no reason to expect the combination method to stop.

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, ukrules said:

Ok, I'm now very surprised.

More to come in another document not yet released regarding the combination method, seasoning requirements plus other things.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

17 minutes ago, MikeOKitches said:

I got my income affidavit notarized by the US Embassy here in Bangkok on November 30, 2018. I was told by the embassy at the time that the letter (income affidavit) I executed (and they notarized) would be valid for 6 months from date of issuance. That would mean it's valid until May 31, 2018.  My Retirement Visa renewal is scheduled for March 31, 2019. I'm hearing conflicting reports from people who've been to different Thai Immigration centers. Some say they won't accept the letter in 2019 at all. Is there any credible source that can definitely tell me if I can use my November 30, 2018 letter (income affidavit) in March 2019 when I renew my Retirement Visa? Thanks in advance for anyone who can shed some light on this for me.  

 

For use at what specific Immigration office?

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, elviajero said:

All that’s changing is how income can be proven, so, IMO, there is no reason to expect the combination method to stop.

I never said there was changes. Neither me nor anybody I am aware of have seen the second document which refers to it. I simply said the above document makes no reference to it.

[Suradit69]

27 minutes ago, kannot said:

Ive done the 400k for years  was  looking more at the "forced"  insurance  possibility at a later  stage.

My   400k just sits there doing nothing, doesnt bother me.

I don't know what the cost of the 20 year Elite visa would be or what will come of the requirement for insurance, but it seems the Elite visa would be the more expensive option as opposed to keeping your money in the bank and buying whatever minimal insurance they require, if it even comes to that.  The money in the bank will still be there unless you choose to spend it and you may even benefit from the insurance.

 

I have foreign medical insurance as part of my pension and the odds of me living another twenty years are about nil. so I'll deposit Baht 800,000 in a Thai bank and hope the authorities will accept my current insurance coverage, which is far more generous than anything on offer locally since in addition to inpatient care it covers outpatient treatment and prescription drugs as well a dental and eyeglasses. 

 

Others may find opting for the long term visa is worth it for the convenience.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Suradit69

[Pib]

And what the UK, US, AU, and Danish embassy folks said TI is probably going to accept foreign income docs was BS....all said out of hope and an attempt to pacify its citizens.  But I hope most of us knew it was BS.   

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, SooKee said:

Agreed, I was figuring it would go this way pretty much from the days of embassy letter announcements, simply because there aren't many (or even any) other viable options for TI that don't entail way too much attention to detail and the scrutiny of too many documents if they want to keep the income route open.

 

On a personal basis I've been doing the monthly transfers since I got here so it's no big deal for me personally, conscious it's the the best solution for may others but it is an alternative to the 800K deposit only route which they could have opted for.  The only fly in the ointment for me will be proving the source of income is from outside Thailand given the TW business model IF that ends up being a TI stipulation.  If the Kasikorn audit trail (either by statement and / or credit advice) won't stand up then it's either open an account at BKK Bank (that'll be a fun trawl around branches given how difficult it is now without a work permit) or try to find another cost effective means of sending over the monthly sums, including more trials with HSBC, that will show as an international tx.  Of course the best outcome will be that TI don't overthink the issue and look merely for a statement showing monthly deposits, end of; might be hoping for a bit much but not entirely beyond the realms of possibility (anything for an easy life), he said with fingers crossed.

Although apparently not required by law, my IO for some years required me to show that my money came from abroad, and I have continued to do so every since.

 

I haven't tried showing the credit advices themselves to Imm, not sure they'd understand them. I use the Credit Advices to show my local Kasikorn branch in order for them to  include that information in the bank letter, since their system does not indicate foreign transfers and the local branch staff would thus have no way of knowing where transfers came from. In other words, the bank letter I get each year contains 2 paragraphs:

 

1. (name) has account no. X with balance of X baht on (date).

 

2. Funds were transferred to this account from overseas as follows: (date), amount X, from country X via (bank name).

 

Item #1 they immediately understand as Thais also have need of this for various purposes, it is a common letter to get. #2 takes some explaining as few foreigners where I live. I find it helpful to always keep of a copy of the prior year's letter to show the bank so they understand what it is exactly I need them to say, then I give that to them with the credit advice(s) and explain to take the information from there.

 

It's worked fine for the past 15 years or so.

 

 

[JackThompson]

49 minutes ago, david555 said:

This phrase could mean trouble for those Embassy's who still give the letter out  " Letter from applicant’s Embassy confirming that applicant has a verified income of ……)

 

I never saw this "verified" on the Embassy letter when I used it first year of my RE. extension  (now the 800k method) This could give surprises....

"Verified" always meant you swore to it under penalty of perjury / going to prison in your passport-country (for USA/AU), or that the embassy-personnel had reviewed documents indicating the income existed (UK) - until Thai-immigration moved the goalposts in a discussion which evidently occurred with consulate personnel in May, 2018. 

 

The UK and USA embassy personnel have maintained that the letters will still be valid for 6 months from issuance - but, as has always been the case (but more commonly occurring recently), the IO can ask for additional documentation.

 

5 hours ago, Khun Paul said:

till questions about the dual system 400 k in the bank and topping up monthly to make 65 k

46 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Post 343 above is the document. The mention of the combination method and seasoning requirements etc are in another document not yet released.

The US Consul stated (recent interview) that the combo method would continue.  Let's hope what he saw and/or was told is correct, in that respect (doesn't help me personally, but could be critical for many others).

Edited January 5, 2019 by JackThompson

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, Pib said:

And what the UK, US, AU, and Danish embassy folks said TI is probably going to accept foreign income docs was BS....all said out of hope and an attempt to pacify its citizens.  But I hope most of us knew it was BS.   

 

And of course, there's the BIGGER underlying issue of just WHY the US, UK Australian and Danish embassies (apparently) are the ONLY ones to have gotten out of the income letters business, while apparently most all of the other countries in the world with embassies and citizens in Thailand are still issuing them in the normal manner, apparently without any more proof that they ever provided in the past?

 

 

[JackThompson]

41 minutes ago, btw65 said:

What about people on marriage extension who have their pension paid into an overseas Bank fortnightly.  Which means some months are less than the necessary 40,000 monthly and others are more.  

The wisest move is for everyone to set up an automated xfer, or a reminder to manually do the xfer.  As pointed out above, even those using a "monthly paid" income source could wind up with 2 xfers one month, and zero the next. 

As the language (we have seen so far) does not have a "grace period" around months, this creates a situation which allows a bad-IO to put you over an agent-barrel, and a good-IO to possibly get heat from a supervisor if he is "overly reasonable."