CONFIRMED: Here is exactly what’s needed for retirement & marriage extensions (income method) from 2019

[JLCrab]

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

5 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Did it really take 13 pages on this topic before you got in your agent-centric view of the universe?

I am trying to focus on how to prevent thousands of expats who qualified under the old rules, to survive the moved-goalposts.  But it's hard to avoid the "Agent in the Room," with his stack of passports being processed in a back-room with top-priority and under a different set of rules.

Thank you Joan of Arc.

[DPKANKAN]

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

Then why are the Germans, the Swedes, the Italians, the Mexicans, and every other country still issuing letters with no problems? Are did the Thais target the Anglosphere? 

I emailed 'our Stacey' at the British Embassy and asked her a few questions, one being why other Embassies are able to issue letters and they cannot?Reply was something along the lines of "We could not possibly comment on other Embassies procedure's and reiterate we will be ceasing ours...." yawn yawn yawn!!

[Confuscious]

Not many foreigners will be happy to bring every month 40,000/65,000 Baht.
Thai banks mostly give no interest on a bank account if the holder is a foreigner and the cost of exchange Foreign-Thai Bath takes a big chunk out of that money every month.

 

Also, a big chunk of foreigners who stay now in Thailand don't have every month 40,000Baht/65,000 Baht income to transfer to Thailand.
Most of them were able to produce an Income Certificate from their Embassy.
But from that income, they had to pay for other things in their home country.

Eg.: I know personally the case of person who was able to show the income certificate of 65,000 Baht/month, but he needed to pay from that income 20,000 Baht for his children in Germany (Court Order).

Paragraph #1:
The foreigner need to show that he/she paid taxes on the 40,000/65,000 Baht every month.
From now on, everybody will need to fill in a personal income tax form and pay income taxes on the 40,000/65,000 Baht.
This income tax is additional money lost on the 40,000/65,000 Baht.

 

Paragraph #2:

The foreigner need to show a "letter of certification" and bank statement showing the tranfer from overseas for the past 12 months.
This means that most foreigners will not be able to fulfill this rule, unless they started to comply with that rule already 1 year ago.
THE EVIDENCE MUST BE FROM THE MONTH OF RETIREMENT.
Eg.: I was retired in 2002.
I will need to show that I transferred 65,000 Baht every month to a Thai bank since 2002 (and paid taxes).
Impossible as it is a new rule.

 

This "new" rule makes going back to "border runs" more interesting than applying for a Spouse/Retirement Visa.
No need to transfer every month a vast amount of money and no need to fill in an income tax letter and pay income taxes.

 

In my case, where the Government of my country made a new law for 2019 that specify that every citizen who lives abroad and return to the country for medical reasons will need to wait 3 month before being entitled to (almost) free healthcare.

 

My choice with all these new rules will be very easy.
Stop the Spouse/Retirement visa and look for a house/appartment in Spain.

Many foreigners will look for cancel their Visa and look to live in a neighbouring country.
Eventually with making visits to Thailand on a tourist visa.

[moe666]

Reading comphrension is not a requirement for Extension of stay for retirement or marriage, it should be. But their inability to understand is what make Thai Visa such a lively forum.

This all came about because certain Embassies will no longer issue LETTERS of VERIFICATION of INCOME. Embassies have never issued letters certifing money on deposit in a bank. It stands to reason this option is not affected

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, fordguy61mi said:

There will be many expats that will have to leave the Kingdom because they won’t have the funds to stay. The party’s over, I guess, for those lying about their income for years. Good luck to them as they travel to their home country and try to make a living for themselves. I don’t say this sarcastically, as I do feel for those who are going through a lot of stress now, even if it is because of their own decisions.

Nope, it's zero change for these people. They will continue to use an agent, as they always have done.

 

It makes me laugh when bitter and twisted TV posters claim that it will weed out the cheats and those who shouldn't be here because they aren't rich. They're the only ones completely unaffected by this. 

[moe666]

3 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

Not many foreigners will be happy to bring every month 40,000/65,000 Baht.
Thai banks mostly give no interest on a bank account if the holder is a foreigner and the cost of exchange Foreign-Thai Bath takes a big chunk out of that money every month.

 

Also, a big chunk of foreigners who stay now in Thailand don't have every month 40,000Baht/65,000 Baht income to transfer to Thailand.
Most of them were able to produce an Income Certificate from their Embassy.
But from that income, they had to pay for other things in their home country.

Eg.: I know personally the case of person who was able to show the income certificate of 65,000 Baht/month, but he needed to pay from that income 20,000 Baht for his children in Germany (Court Order).

Paragraph #1:
The foreigner need to show that he/she paid taxes on the 40,000/65,000 Baht every month.
From now on, everybody will need to fill in a personal income tax form and pay income taxes on the 40,000/65,000 Baht.
This income tax is additional money lost on the 40,000/65,000 Baht.

 

Paragraph #2:

The foreigner need to show a "letter of certification" and bank statement showing the tranfer from overseas for the past 12 months.
This means that most foreigners will not be able to fulfill this rule, unless they started to comply with that rule already 1 year ago.
THE EVIDENCE MUST BE FROM THE MONTH OF RETIREMENT.
Eg.: I was retired in 2002.
I will need to show that I transferred 65,000 Baht every month to a Thai bank since 2002 (and paid taxes).
Impossible as it is a new rule.

 

This "new" rule makes going back to "border runs" more interesting than applying for a Spouse/Retirement Visa.
No need to transfer every month a vast amount of money and no need to fill in an income tax letter and pay income taxes.

 

In my case, where the Government of my country made a new law for 2019 that specify that every citizen who lives abroad and return to the country for medical reasons will need to wait 3 month before being entitled to (almost) free healthcare.

 

My choice with all these new rules will be very easy.
Stop the Spouse/Retirement visa and look for a house/appartment in Spain.

Many foreigners will look for cancel their Visa and look to live in a neighbouring country.
Eventually with making visits to Thailand on a tourist visa.

Go back and read the order again you have totally misinterpeted it. It does not start until 1 jan. 2019 nothing about going back to when you came to Thailand.

[zydeco]

9 minutes ago, DPKANKAN said:

I emailed 'our Stacey' at the British Embassy and asked her a few questions, one being why other Embassies are able to issue letters and they cannot?Reply was something along the lines of "We could not possibly comment on other Embassies procedure's and reiterate we will be ceasing ours...." yawn yawn yawn!!

Funny thing is that when all this started and it was announced that the UK would stop the letters, the OP in that article as I remember included someone from the UK embassy saying the US would be next. So, no problem commenting on other embassies, then, when the comparison was made in justification. No, only cannot comment, now, because the comparison clearly looks like bad.

Edited January 8, 2019 by zydeco

[DPKANKAN]

26 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

36 minutes ago, DPKANKAN said:

My Kasikorn account does! Shows it as "INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND FACTORING CENTER TFN00000 under the 'Service Channel' heading! That is in Account Management, Statement Inquiry.

Will that count as an international payment though? Mine has a branch / channel code 0911, i was kinda hoping that meant Intl payment

It shows the money as  bank income. My only query will be that as I only send over my money every quarter as I only get my private pension quarterly, will it still be OK?? It is well in excess of the minimum anyway!

[stevo2]

10 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

Not many foreigners will be happy to bring every month 40,000/65,000 Baht.
Thai banks mostly give no interest on a bank account if the holder is a foreigner and the cost of exchange Foreign-Thai Bath takes a big chunk out of that money every month.

 

Also, a big chunk of foreigners who stay now in Thailand don't have every month 40,000Baht/65,000 Baht income to transfer to Thailand.
Most of them were able to produce an Income Certificate from their Embassy.
But from that income, they had to pay for other things in their home country.

Eg.: I know personally the case of person who was able to show the income certificate of 65,000 Baht/month, but he needed to pay from that income 20,000 Baht for his children in Germany (Court Order).

Paragraph #1:
The foreigner need to show that he/she paid taxes on the 40,000/65,000 Baht every month.
From now on, everybody will need to fill in a personal income tax form and pay income taxes on the 40,000/65,000 Baht.
This income tax is additional money lost on the 40,000/65,000 Baht.

 

Paragraph #2:

The foreigner need to show a "letter of certification" and bank statement showing the tranfer from overseas for the past 12 months.
This means that most foreigners will not be able to fulfill this rule, unless they started to comply with that rule already 1 year ago.
THE EVIDENCE MUST BE FROM THE MONTH OF RETIREMENT.
Eg.: I was retired in 2002.
I will need to show that I transferred 65,000 Baht every month to a Thai bank since 2002 (and paid taxes).
Impossible as it is a new rule.

 

This "new" rule makes going back to "border runs" more interesting than applying for a Spouse/Retirement Visa.
No need to transfer every month a vast amount of money and no need to fill in an income tax letter and pay income taxes.

 

In my case, where the Government of my country made a new law for 2019 that specify that every citizen who lives abroad and return to the country for medical reasons will need to wait 3 month before being entitled to (almost) free healthcare.

 

My choice with all these new rules will be very easy.
Stop the Spouse/Retirement visa and look for a house/appartment in Spain.

Many foreigners will look for cancel their Visa and look to live in a neighbouring country.
Eventually with making visits to Thailand on a tourist visa.

 

If you can’t afford to spend 40/65k Baht in Thailand, you won’t be able to afford to live in Spain.

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, Acharn said:

but wire transfers turn out to be much less expensive than I thought, and there are several companies called Automated Clearing Houses (ACH) that are quite cheap,

Basic ACH transfers (not in IAT format) are for domestic movement of money and differ from a foreign wire transfer.

Bangkok Bank in New York has been accepting these domestic transfers and then notifying Bangkok Bank Thailand to credit your account in Thailand with the equivalent amount, after fees, in Thai baht.

 

That's ending 1st April. 

Quote

With effective from April 1, 2019, New York branch only process ACH with appropriate IAT format and all non-IAT transactions will be returned. 

https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Other-Services/Transfers/Transferring-Into-Thailand/Transfer-money-from-US-to-Thailand-via-Bangkok-Bank-NewYork-branch

 

Transferwise uses Swift codes (despite what some people on Thai Visa think) but the money going into your Thai bank may or may not be recorded as a foreign sourced transfer ( since it may first go through a different Thai bank) which may cause problems if you're trying to prove money deposited in your Thai bank came from outside Thailand.

 

As stated on  Transferwise's instructions for transfers from dollars to baht:

Quote

THB Transfers

Here you'll find everything you need to know about sending to Thai Baht.

Once you begin typing in the SWIFT/BIC code for the recipient bank, you will be able to choose the correct bank from a drop-down list

https://transferwise.com/help/article/2017493/australia-and-asia-pacific-transfers/thb-transfers

 

 

2 hours ago, Acharn said:

As a former bureaucrat

Not sure if you're bragging or confessing.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

 

So really, really be honest. The embassies were forced into an untenable situation by the Thai Immigration's requirement for undoable verification procedures!

So why only 4 embassies have stopped producing the letter? Certainly, as far as the British Embassy is concerned, their verification was just as robust as the embassies that continue to produce the letter.

 

Don't blame TI, they have done their best to accommodate those thrown under the bus by their embassies.

[racyrick]

14 hours ago, Pib said:

You can use Transferwise.  When funding the Transferwise transfer you just select the "ACH Debit" funding option (not to be confused with funding via Debit Card funding).   Transferwise then "pulls/withdraws" the funding from your Wells Fargo account.  

 

You are correct you can not use DeeMoney to send money "to" Thailand (no one can).  It's for sending money "out" of Thailand...transfers are funded from your Thai bank account or in cash.  

 

Now for Transferwise, it can not be used to transfer money out of Thailand; it can only be used to transfer money into Thailand.   If you have a Bangkok Bank account the Transferwise transfer to that account will appear as an International Transfer which will satisfy TI that the money came from outside Thailand.   If sending to other Thai banks the Transferwise transfer may not appear as an International Transfer.....it may just a appear as a domestic/intra-Thailand transfer....not as a foreign transfer.

 

Contact/call Social Security in the States or Manila to initiate the change of bank accounts for Direct Deposit.  But keep in mind to have your SSA Direct Deposited to Bangkok Bank via ACH you will need to have your Thailand address onfile with SSA and ensure the transfer format is ACH "IAT."   Ditto (I.e, Thailand address onfile) for the soon to be IDD direct deposit method.  

 

Thank you so much Pib for your help. I do have a Bangkok Bank account that I would use to deposit here.

I am only interested in transferring to Thailand to meet the new immigration rules.

 

As for the change of bank accounts for direct deposit, I do have a few questions.

First I assume I must open a new direct deposit savings account. Is that all I would have to do at my Bangkok Bank branch?

They only show information on what you need to do when you open or just start receiving benefits.

They ask you to fill out a direct deposit sign up form-open a savings account for direct deposit-direct deposit service application-copy of passport and social security card and they send all info to SSA.

SSA has my Thai address as that is the only one I have.

 

Thanks again so much for your help, time and patience!!

[Confuscious]

12 minutes ago, moe666 said:

Go back and read the order again you have totally misinterpeted it. It does not start until 1 jan. 2019 nothing about going back to when you came to Thailand.

Go back and read the order again.

 

[Nyezhov]

14 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Just be aware that we have reports at immigration at Bangkok Airports hassling those using 2x Tourist Visas to stay in Thailand 1/2 year.  Their claims of imaginary laws have ranged from "180 days / yr max" to "180 days in well-over a year", to "Tourists only stay a couple weeks" (never mind that a "Tourist Visa" grants 60 days, extendable to 90). 

 

The goal is to get "snowbirds" to get annual extensions - preferably via an agent, as will be increasingly common due to US/UK/AU being told their letters were no-good any more (or so they claim).  Those not staying here year-round will be unlikely to xfer money in monthly - year-round.

 

For now, you could still do this safely - always entering using the law-abiding land-borders (all but Poipet).  But, that could end at some point, if/when the bosses of the good entry-points are bought-out by whoever paid-off the existing bad entry-points.

Im well aware of the "reports". Im also well aware of the chances of an old USA guy getting hassled anywhere (except Poipet) on two SETVS with a ticket out prior to the expiration of the second 90 days are slim enough so as to make the two SETV option viable for a snowbird who does not want the hassle of dealing with all of this Bank account stuff.

 

In fact, your thinly veiled insinuation about "Agents" in the future is based on what? What you hear? Well guess what, I have been personally told on more than one occasion by Immigration dudes that "we dont care about Americans". I know that flies in the face of conventional wisdom about the ugly American, but in point of fact, your average older USA dude here is treated better than other folks...by everybody. Thats the luck of more than one genetic lottery or accident of birth.

 

 Besides, my passport will be filled by the time I get back to the USA so its time for a new one. Even under your scenario, I should be good for quite some time. And even if they tell me at the border that this is my last SETV, then at that point, if I want to stay, Ill just transfer whatever I need into the bank. Or maybe Ill just do a retirement visa in the States.

 

All of the Doom and Gloom is waaay to much sometimes.

 

 

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, Ned said:

Already schemes are being thought up to get around this latest 65K per month into a Thai bank rule.

Where's this all leading? If TI had any self respect ...to the 400/800K in the bank method as the one and only method to get an extension.

 Which put's lie to those that say that TI are trying to get rid of expats. Faced with a situation of 4 embassies, who's citizens make up more than 50% of expats, screwing over their citizens, they were under no obligation to change the rules to accommodate them and help those who were in danger of not being able to permanently reside in the Kingdom. If they wanted to get rid of expats, living on the margin financially, they would have simply sat on their hands and waved thousands of expats bye bye.

[Suradit69]

4 hours ago, Huckenfell said:

Once again, the Thai government has succeeded in frightening and confusing many peaceful, law abiding, money producing retirees who just want to be left in peace and contentment in their country. Why keep producing these orders, is it the result and consequence  of undiplomatially trained military officials.

They're producing the orders in response to several foreign embassies announcing that they would no longer issue income verification documents for their nationals in Thailand.

 

If anything has disturbed the peace and contentment of farang in Thailand, it was the undiplomatic and minimally trained embassy officers' announcements.

 

Once again some minimally informed Thai Visa poster blames all the world's woes on Thais and Thailand.

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Suradit69

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, wgdanson said:

Agree totally. But another way for short-timers would be to borrow 800k, put it in bank for 3 months and then re-patriate the money and pay off the loan. Cheers.

Probably more financially prudent to pay an agent.

[Dah fahrang]

16 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I think they mean a letter from the bank among with a copy of your bank  book pages.  The bank book will show the transfers but depending on the bank might or might not specify international. Bank letter should clearly state this.

 

What you will need to get your bank branch to do that depends on the Bank and how their system is set up. For Kasikorn there is nothing in the system that enables branch staff to know a transfer was domestic vs international, one has to go back to the original credit advice issued by the head office when the funds arrived so good idea to start collecting those. Some other banks apparently list intl transfer in the bank book/online statement, but it might not show as intl if done by Transferwise. 

 

This is all between you and your bank. Imm does nto want to get into those details,  they want a letter from the bank stating you made monthly transfers of X amount from abroad, and a bank book that is cosnistent with that i.e. shows monthly transfers in.

Kasikorn DO show the transfer as being international.

Their K Cyber web site has a facility to view or download online statements.

Whilst these are not the most typographically simple - they are in Excel, they do clearly show

 

INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND FACTORING CENTER TFN05030

against incoming foreign transfers.

My pension payments from UK are sent by my pension provider, in £ sterling, and are converted here.

They show date, amount then above in right hand column.

They do not show on the passbook, but the TFN reference in the passbook is the same as online statement.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, ZABA said:

Regarding monthly income, the only problem I see is that Bangkok Bank told me they would give a letter and only 6 months foreign deposits on a statement. Hopefully they will get in sync with this.

Good luck with that! I've said before, the problems for people using the 40k/65k method will start when they try to obtain a letter from their bank.

[JLCrab]

26 minutes ago, Spidey said:

It makes me laugh when bitter and twisted TV posters claim that it will weed out the cheats and those who shouldn't be here because they aren't rich. They're the only ones completely unaffected by this.

Well the cheaters and others that faked the income affidavit will have to find some other way to 'comply' but I won't put it past them.

But I don't really care what others do.  You once said to me "This isn't all about you, Crabby" but actually it is as this whole new regime suits me just fine.

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Im well aware of the "reports". Im also well aware of the chances of an old USA guy getting hassled anywhere (except Poipet) on two SETVS with a ticket out prior to the expiration of the second 90 days are slim enough so as to make the two SETV option viable for a snowbird who does not want the hassle of dealing with all of this Bank account stuff.

I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with these new rules as a part-timer.  But an old German lady's report of being hassled for similar comes first to my mind.  

 

4 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

In fact, your thinly veiled insinuation about "Agents" in the future is based on what?

These new rules will be difficult for many to accommodate, so will drive up the number of agent-submitted applications.  IOs make under-the-table money from agent-submitted applications, to skip many steps the rest of us must fulfill, including the financials.  Is this in dispute?

 

4 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

What you hear? Well guess what, I have been personally told on more than one occasion by Immigration dudes that "we dont care about Americans". I know that flies in the face of conventional wisdom about the ugly American, but in point of fact, your average older USA dude here is treated better than other folks...by everybody. Thats the luck of more than one genetic lottery or accident of birth.

 

 Besides, my passport will be filled by the time I get back to the USA so its time for a new one.

Your full history will be in immigration's system.  I would not expect problems until your 2nd year doing this.

 

4 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Even under your scenario, I should be good for quite some time. And even if they tell me at the border that this is my last SETV, then at that point, if I want to stay, Ill just transfer whatever I need into the bank. Or maybe Ill just do a retirement visa in the States.

Maybe they will give you a "warning" - and not send you all the way back.  Who knows - depends on how many detention cells are full, how the current boss of the checkpoint feels that day - etc.

 

4 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

All of the Doom and Gloom is waaay to much sometimes.

It's not about "doom and gloom" - You now know the risks and how to avoid them (using safe entry-points vs the bad ones like Bangkok airports).  Sorry you don't want to think about that risk, but some entry-points are run by those who don't care what the law says.  Good luck. 

[Nyezhov]

1 minute ago, JackThompson said:

IOs make under-the-table money from agent-submitted applications, to skip many steps the rest of us must fulfill, including the financials.  Is this in dispute?

I read that alot. Do we have verifiable facts to support that it has happened? Or is it just the usual slur on Thai law enforcement. And what about our Man Big Joke, what is he going to do about that>

 

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I would not expect problems until your 2nd year doing this.

I would like one, just one, personal report of an age 50 plus American getting hassled coming in on a second of third or fourth SETV, who has otherwise followed all the rules and then I might start to "worry".

[Spidey]

42 minutes ago, DPKANKAN said:

I emailed 'our Stacey' at the British Embassy and asked her a few questions, one being why other Embassies are able to issue letters and they cannot?Reply was something along the lines of "We could not possibly comment on other Embassies procedure's and reiterate we will be ceasing ours...." yawn yawn yawn!!

In layman's language that translates as, "Go spin on it, prole".

[Dah fahrang]

46 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

Not many foreigners will be happy to bring every month 40,000/65,000 Baht.
Thai banks mostly give no interest on a bank account if the holder is a foreigner and the cost of exchange Foreign-Thai Bath takes a big chunk out of that money every month.

 

 

Not strictly true. I thought like you, but then discovered that Bank of Ayudhya offer 1.3% tax free on their Mee Tae Dai Savings Account. Some restrictions on withdrawals - 2 a month but hey, that's more % than I get from taxable UK savings or offshore deposits!

[theoldgit]

7 minutes ago, Dah fahrang said:

Kasikorn DO show the transfer as being international.

Their K Cyber web site has a facility to view or download online statements.

Whilst these are not the most typographically simple - they are in Excel, they do clearly show

My KK account doesn't if I use TransferWise, as many others have said it says "Dummy Branch" on their website and the downloaded statement, my TW statement indicates that it's sent using a SWIFT transfer from TMB.

 

I use TW because of the cheaper International Transfer Costs from my overseas bank, the mid market rate as opposed to the Telex receiving rate and the absence of a receiving fee.

 

I have a number of options going forward, opening a Bangkok Bank account and hope that TW continues to use them, instruct one of my Pension Providers to pay directly to a Thai bank, reluctant to do that as I'm more inclined to spend it if I have easy access to it, get my bank in Jersey to send directly, unfortunatly that requires a phone call every month, put our joint account in my name only, or wait to see how it pans out over the next few months or so.

[Spidey]

14 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Well the cheaters and others that faked the income affidavit will have to find some other way to 'comply' but I won't put it past them.

Brits who didn't have the means to satisfy TI before, didn't fake their income letters or provide false information to the embassy. It was a lot more difficult than some smart arsed posters have made out. They all, IME, used an agent and will continue to do so, as will, no doubt quite a few new customers.

 

I like your attitude, very American, "I'm OK, screw you!".

[Spidey]

14 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

I read that alot. Do we have verifiable facts to support that it has happened? Or is it just the usual slur on Thai law enforcement. And what about our Man Big Joke, what is he going to do about that>

 

I would like one, just one, personal report of an age 50 plus American getting hassled coming in on a second of third or fourth SETV, who has otherwise followed all the rules and then I might start to "worry".

You could always obtain a "non O-A"" from the Thai embassy in the US.

[alant]

3 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Why didn't you read the TITLE of the document in post 1 ?

"Supporting evidence of income for visa extension //"

 

I did where in it does it say that the money in the bank option remains the same?

[JLCrab]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I like your attitude, very American, "I'm OK, screw you!".

That's right -- I'd like to visit my ancestral heritage one of these days in England but I've heard it's full of Brits.

[Spidey]

4 hours ago, Moonlover said:

So when was the last time you did that Spidey? 

 

But if you did, you could get money from your UK bank via TransferWise in about 4 to 5 hours.

 

Now get realistic. Nobody, other than the super rich maybe, would behaves like that. So this is a very poor example.

Last time was 6 weeks ago. Blew my car engine up, bill = 50k. In the last 12 months, several times, changed my son's school on a whim = 40k. Impromptu trip up country, car hire, hotels, spends, = 30k. And others.