"no brakes"accidents in Thailand

[biplanebluey]

For a long time now I have been wondering why so many accidents in Thailand have been suggested as being caused by brake failure. Well the one thing I did know was that there is 2 different brake fluids and lwanted Dot4 to do a repair job at home. At this time and. I have to point out that the 2types of brake fluid are Dot3 and Dot4. Dot3 is perfectly satisfactory for motorcycles especially small scooters. Some time ago now it was found that with the emergence of large trucks and Big heavy cars and pickups Dot3was overheating and causing brakes to fail so came the birth of Dot4,and as I have said l wanted Dot4 so l was not just surprised but quite horrified to find that out of 5 major new car suppliers only1 in the whole of Udon Thani could supply me with Dot4 and the others seemed to be surprised that I was making such a scene about it. I am also surprised that nobody has picked this up. Especially as most of the vehicles involved seem to be Buses, large trucks and other big vehicles. Anybody else got any thoughts on this? 

[Sealbash]

You will notice this is an initial statement made by reporters prior to discovery of facts or any actual investigation. No official causal statistics are ever given to substantiate this assumption.


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[biplanebluey]

1 minute ago, Sealbash said:

You will notice this is an initial statement made by reporters prior to discovery of facts or any actual investigation. No official causal statistics are ever given to substantiate this assumption.


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The drivers say they had no brakes so are they all lying, and have heard no reports about any loss of brakes so is it not important enough to treat this as urgent 

[canthai55]

Large trucks and buses have air brakes. No brake fluid.

[canthai55]

Consequently, the DOT 5.1 brake fluids level was created to differentiate these two very different chemistries which both meet DOT 5 brake fluids performance requirements.
In so many words, DOT 5.1 brake fluids are simply DOT 4-type brake fluids which meet DOT 5 brake fluids performance requirements. Because of this, they typically can be mixed with DOT 3 or DOT 4 brake fluids without concern. Sometimes, they are even referred to as ‘DOT 4 Plus’ or ‘Super DOT 4’ brake fluids because they are more similar to a conventional DOT 4 fluid by chemistry than they are to a conventional DOT 5 brake fluid. In fact, DOT 5.1 is essentially comprised of borate esters.

https://www.lubricants.total.com/brake-fluid-types

[Almer]

I have no data for dot 3 or 4, but somebody out there has, however HGV, large passenger carring vehicles would in the  main have air assistance, the brake failure cry is used by many to inexpirienced police officers at the scene of an incident and  it looks like it works everytime,.

Brake fade is what i fear they are refering to, after driving 40 years throughout Europe in a large passenger vehicle i can assure the world brake fade is very real,  take a 20.000 kg vehicle with 50 plus

souls aboard down an incline holding the brake in all the way, disaster is very near, brake fade is the commen denominator of many Thai incidents with large vehicles, now go down the same incline check braking in a low gear and  different outcome, sorry to all who understand this phenomenon, now try explaining that to a proffesional thai driver, it will not take you long because they will tell you there brakes are fine all the time it is only a problem when people stop quick in front !!!!

[JAS21]

2 hours ago, Almer said:

I have no data for dot 3 or 4, but somebody out there has, however HGV, large passenger carring vehicles would in the  main have air assistance, the brake failure cry is used by many to inexpirienced police officers at the scene of an incident and  it looks like it works everytime,.

Brake fade is what i fear they are refering to, after driving 40 years throughout Europe in a large passenger vehicle i can assure the world brake fade is very real,  take a 20.000 kg vehicle with 50 plus

souls aboard down an incline holding the brake in all the way, disaster is very near, brake fade is the commen denominator of many Thai incidents with large vehicles, now go down the same incline check braking in a low gear and  different outcome, sorry to all who understand this phenomenon, now try explaining that to a proffesional thai driver, it will not take you long because they will tell you there brakes are fine all the time it is only a problem when people stop quick in front !!!!

Isn't the 'failure' of the brakes when going down hill caused by the air compressor being unable to keep up with the usage of air and then no brakes? Well I thought that is what happens if air brakes are used too much.

[canthai55]

8 hours ago, JAS21 said:

Isn't the 'failure' of the brakes when going down hill caused by the air compressor being unable to keep up with the usage of air and then no brakes? Well I thought that is what happens if air brakes are used too much.

That is true. Air pressure usually held at 120 PSI by the governor. As air is used, in a brake application, governor kicks in and replaces lost air.

In the West spring brakes are mandatory - if brake system air pressure lost, a spring applied the brakes. You must build up air pressure before the brakes will release again.

But not mandatory here - seen many trucks with single chamber brake pots.

One major change that would be of great help here in LOS is if trucks were equipped with Jake Brakes - never heard of them in all my time here.

Single chamber - used on steer axle

Dual chamber - used on drive axle/s

Edited March 14, 2019 by canthai55

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

Think more it's the "breaker" not the breaks itself that is the problem in Thailand.

[JAS21]

46 minutes ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

Think more it's the "breaker" not the breaks itself that is the problem in Thailand.

A lot of truth in that I think ... pulling up at out of town traffic lights I always looksee in the rear view mirror and try to leave enough gap to the car in front so I have an escape route ....

Edited March 15, 2019 by JAS21

[canthai55]

24 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

A lot of truth in that I think ... pulling up at out of town traffic lights I always looksee in the rear view mirror and try to leave enough gap to the car in front so I have an escape route ....

Rule of Thumb - if, when stopped behind another car, you can see where his rear tires touch the road, you have room to turn from behind him and pass to either side.

[taichiplanet]

It seems most Thai drivers expect the brakes to work the same at 10 kph as it does at 100 kph, hence the 'brakes fail'.

 

It is inexperience with handling speed properly, mixed with stupidity. Any idiot can drive fast, it is when there is an emergency that tells the most about someones anticipation and skill.

[Almer]

With tegard to the Buffalo incident, disgusting. 

[Jitar]

5 hours ago, canthai55 said:

That is true. Air pressure usually held at 120 PSI by the governor. As air is used, in a brake application, governor kicks in and replaces lost air.

In the West spring brakes are mandatory - if brake system air pressure lost, a spring applied the brakes. You must build up air pressure before the brakes will release again.

But not mandatory here - seen many trucks with single chamber brake pots.

One major change that would be of great help here in LOS is if trucks were equipped with Jake Brakes - never heard of them in all my time here.

Single chamber - used on steer axle

Dual chamber - used on drive axle/s

Jake brakes are an engine brake primarily fitted to US truck engines which are not common in the Thai market.  The Japanese trucks use exhaust brakes which behave similarly although not quite as effective.  

 

The dual chamber actuators are part of full air / maxi brakes.  Most heavy trucks use maxi brakes but some medium trucks and buses still use air over hydraulic brakes.  The spring applied design makes Maxi brakes superior, but they can still fail if not maintained properly.

 

Poor truck maintenance standards are easy to find in Thailand, as is overloading and poor driving standards.  There many accidents attributed to heavy vehicle brake failure.  Would be interesting to know how many were caused by brake system failure to operate correctly compared to cases where the brakes failed to stop the vehicle because they were misused (overheated, applied too late or at excessive speed etc).   

[soistalker]

My hobby is watching car and scooter crash videos from Thailand. Go check it out out on YouTube. I'll estimate 40% of all accidents are collisions BEFORE the Thai hits the brakes.

[thailand49]

The problem isn't the brakes?  First, there are rules for inspections for commercial vehicles but there is no enforcement for upkeep by the companies why it isn't enforced. Basically, get in turn the key and off you go, whether the lights are burned out, brakes are bad or tires are balled? Take it or left it for the drivers no rights.

Then you got no compliance on the history of drivers, no random drug and alcohol testing nor are they required to take a real physical to drive commercially!

Many if not all have an idea how to commercially test the air brake system!

 

Nothing really wrong with the brakes just an excused use by drivers who have no other excuse!  In the west brake failure means the breaks actually failed here it means they were going too fast and couldn't stop in time!???? they applied the brakes but the speed they were traveling not enough time or distance to stop that is the definition of brake failure in Thailand!

Edited March 15, 2019 by thailand49

[sawadee1947]

21 hours ago, biplanebluey said:

caused by brake failure

I think it's a matter of brake pads. 

I've been told they use old rubber  shoe soles.

[bluejets]

There is air over hydraulic used in old trucks. 

I had a 1910A International that worked that way.

Run out of air and you essentially run out of brakes. 

Just saying......... as many trucks/busses I see in Thailand are older than old.

[myshem]

8 hours ago, taichiplanet said:

It seems most Thai drivers expect the brakes to work the same at 10 kph as it does at 100 kph, hence the 'brakes fail'.

 

It is inexperience with handling speed properly, mixed with stupidity. Any idiot can drive fast, it is when there is an emergency that tells the most about someones anticipation and skill.

 

Exactly ! So funny to see these idiots racing in their trucks when they do not even have half a brain to be able to understand that they $hit trucks won't brake as my AMG. I can speed because I can bake, but they cannot...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, thailand49 said:

no random drug and alcohol testing

Nor is there in N. America

[transam]

5 minutes ago, myshem said:

 

Exactly ! So funny to see these idiots racing in their trucks when they do not even have half a brain to be able to understand that they $hit trucks won't brake as my AMG. I can speed because I can bake, but they cannot...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm, you are a baker to be avoided then....

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, thailand49 said:

nor are they required to take a real physical to drive commercially!

Ever been in the DLT ? I assume by your post ... NOT

Commercial license valid for 3 years, and a road test is FOR SURE required.

Same Same as the West - some are good ... some are not

Look at Mon Transport - they haul fuel. Trucks in tip top shape.

The test I take every 3 years in N. America is very basic - like here. BP, heart, vision. Asked by Doc - you OK - I say yes.

Stamp. Bang. Done.

[Almer]

Lack of training, it takes a lot of common sence to stop 30.000 kg in a straight line, end of post !!!

[Tropposurfer]

I haven't sat in a cab with a Thai heavy vehicle driver (so grain of salt with my musings plz) on possible reasons for so many heavy vehicle crashes.

I drove for about 15 years; 8 to 18 tonne trucks in Oz, sometimes with dog trailers.

From some of the Thai crashes I've seen on youtube via TF some look very much like totally wrong gear being selected for road conditions, gradient, as well as excessive speed, and lack of anticipation of possible dangers ahead. 

The wrong gear often exacerbates and correlates with excessive speed as gearing is used in heavy vehicles along with engine brakes to keep the truck within control.

This poor gear selection leads a driver to lean on the brakes more. This likely over braking or 'brake on brake off' on gradients leaves you with no brakes very quickly, then then horror of too much speed to be able to shift down, and thus more speed. 

If your loosing control of the vehicle and are poorly trained then panic and trying to ride the vehicle into a safer mode can often be what poor or inexperienced drivers do, in the hope they can regain airbrake pressure and slow the truck then shift down and get control back.. Sadly this relies of the road staying straight, no obstacles, plenty of room, and no down gradient!

The tipping over of heavy vehicles is an interesting happening too; Seems from observing, video evidence (post-crash position) may also be contributed to by; Vehicles often being overloaded, incorrect type of vehicle being used to haul the load, loads not being tied down correctly and shifting under centrifugal force during swerving or turning (again in wrong gear, driving too close, and too fast to anticipate and avoid obstacles in front) e.g Todays buffalo horror the cane truck crushing a car and some folks recently.

Add to this other road users behaving spontaneously, without using mirrors to check if stopping of doing whatever they choose to do is safe, braking, turning, and stopping without sufficient warning to others, no indicating, and disobeying both road laws and common sense actions and its a clusterf..k! 

It does not take much to tip/or loose control of a truck if your combining wrong gear, too much speed, poor road awareness (i.e. not looking down the road far enough while maintaining good attentive peripheral vision so as to judge traffic and centrifugal forces when cornering,

Perhaps less than well maintained vehicles, and fatigue are real contributor too. 
Perhaps more stringent compulsory instruction and govt licensing testing would help somewhat in the appalling carnage on Thai roads.

[Formaleins]

DOT 3 and 4 are fine, can even be mixed, though not recommended - DOT 5 is the latest. I imagine that the type of brake fluid has very little to do with brake fail accidents in Thailand - More than likely just poor maintenance or heaven forbid, lies and trying to blame the vehicle rather than the driver!

[Assurancetourix]

23 hours ago, canthai55 said:

Large trucks and buses have air brakes. No brake fluid.

Exact but the assitance is an oil one on traditional brakes.

 

For many years heavy goods vehicles and coaches in Europe have disc brakes on all wheels with ABS and EBD;
some high-end road tractors and coaches have carbon / ceramic brakes as in the case of F1

The brakes of heavy goods vehicles and coaches cannot, as a matter of principle, not work;
if there is no more air, they block because they work at a depression;
and on disc brakes, it's not air but oil.
The problem of Thailand is the lack of professional training and total ignorance of how a motor / box / bridge unit works;
I own  an Isuzu pickup with automatic gearbox;
when I ride in the mountains, I use my gearbox as a manual gearbox and almost never touch the brake pedal.

 

[brokenbone]

20 hours ago, JAS21 said:

Isn't the 'failure' of the brakes when going down hill caused by the air compressor being unable to keep up with the usage of air and then no brakes? Well I thought that is what happens if air brakes are used too much.

its the reverse, air pressure releases brakes,

no air=brakes on

[JAS21]

17 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

its the reverse, air pressure releases brakes,

no air=brakes on

Are you up to speed on this ... see #8 ... TIT ...

Edited March 15, 2019 by JAS21

[brokenbone]

12 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

Are you up to speed on this ... see #8 ... TIT ...

oh, wow, i just assumed it to be world wide standard for

heavy machinery, for the past 50+ years.

actually do thais even build big machinery

them self a unique model ?

 

maybe modified nid noi on old junk they cant find spares for ?

Edited March 15, 2019 by brokenbone

[steve73]

I just assume they always spell "brane" incorrectly...

 

Actually, Thai's seem to prefer to swerve to avoid something rather than to "emergency brake", and if they then brake hard whilst swerving, this is when they totally lose control. 

 

I tried to teach my gf to "emergency brake"...as hard as possible (with ABS) in a straight line - she didn't have a clue, and just would calmly coast to a stop...!!!!