National Police Chief Questions Murder Suspect Of Russian Tourists

[joskydive]

Aparently, the girls were tourists and had arrived here on a package tour on Feb. 16 according to the Bangkok Post newspaper

[DrDweeb]

Activities

1. Learning to fly

2. Sailing

3. Snorkelling

4. Skydiving

5. Temples

6. Sightseeing

Need I go on. Stay in you own silly corner by yourself, or maybe I'll join you for even bothering to answer your stupid request.

I'm afraid that you are only seeming sillier. Do you actually believe the #1 reason people go to Pattaya is to "learn to fly"? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And, it's also curious to me that your top 4 reasons to go to Pattaya have NOTHING to do with Thailand, Thai people, or Thai culture, which says a LOT about you. #5 is simply "temples," as if you wouldn't find much better ones in Banbkok, for starters.

So, again, what are the main 3 reasons people go to Pattaya, and what can they find there that they can't find better elsewhere?

You silly, silly thing.

GOLF !

There are, from memory 20+ courses within easy driving distance of Pattaya. It is THE reason that I go to Pattaya on EVERY trip to Thailand. Any serious golfer who has not made the jorney to Pattaya to sample the courses has missed a lot. Also, a number of the courses are quite inexpensive, and of sufficient interest and quality to warrent a round or two.

A few beers in the evening, a relaxing day at the resort beach (there are other beaches beside Pattaya Beach Rd.) and it is pretty easy to get a week to pass, inexpensively. It is possible for a male to spend a week in Pattaya or Phuket or any other place without buying sex - trust me on this.

Additionally, a trip to the Tiger park, Khaeow Kheo Zoo, perhaps the elephant sanctuary etc. etc. There are plenty of "tourist" venues. A trip to the local markets is always fun, but I guess you never found that.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Pattaya is very cheap relative to Phuket, which is possibly a reason that it is so polpular with the Russians . Oh, have you ever been to Russia? I lived there - and trust me - Pattaya IS PARADISE compared to a normal day in Moscow - and winter in Moscow and farther afield (winter is now FYI) is largely unbearable.

You really need to stop using you misguided moral compass to measure reality. It will get it wrong every time.

Golf?! No denying that the golf courses are there because people go all the way to Thailand to use them (Hey, let's go to Cambodia to play a good game of tennis while we're at it.). And, as you suggest, there probably are some people who go to Pattaya primarily to play golf and enjoy other Western ammenities at Third World discount rates. But, back to that "reality" you were trying to measure, the crime isn't happening on the golf courses (unless you count the destruction to the natural environment and water wastage), but in the centers for prostitution, bar venues...

Let's all focus again. In Bangkok there is more crime in Patpong and Kao San than in, let's say, Bpaak Naam. Why? Well, there's more foreigners, prostitution, bars, clubs, drunks... This isn't a moral argument, it's just as simple as saying, "where there are more birds there are more feathers." Certain atmospheres are going to attract less desirable persons, and there's going to be more criminal activity. Brothels and Go-go bars aren't frequented only by lowlifes and pathetic rejects, of course, but, the lowlifes and pathetic rejects with make a b-line for Pattaya.

Haven't you seen a lot of really, well, loser-looking types wearing shirts that say, "Good boys go to heaven. Bad boys go to Pattaya?" Guess where they end up? Guess how late they stay out? Guess who is an easy target? Guess who no one's going to think twice about robbing?

Sure, Pattaya has other attractions than sex--I myself went there to see a large temple sculpted out of teak wood--but, most people go there for the sex scene, and that general type of seedy atmosphere isn't going to be without it's shady characters, petty crime and violence.

As to your thing about a moral compass. None needed, none applied. It's not a moral issue. Just simple observation of the blindingly obvious. What IS interesting is why some of you need to deny it. Why can’t you face the simple truth?

How about this. If one is concerned for one's safety, and one isn't in Thailand for sex, than destinations other than Pattaya may be more desirable. Can you handle THAT? Though I do fully acknowledge that if one is simply going to be taking advantage of golf courses, and possibly even going to church on Sundays in Pattaya, that person will avoid most the danger.

Hmm.

I will leave the idea that golf courses are some ecological disatser aside - you clearly do not hav a clue about this.

A few random thoughts.

The highest number of visitors to Pattaya/Jomtien/Nakula area last year was apparently Russian. A casual observer will note that a large number of Russians bring their families with them - I suspect that the "sex-scene" is not their primary motivating factor. It is, as I pointed out, sun, sea, sand and it's inexpensive - and it is so f*ing cold in Russia right now, the choice is not a bad one. It is eminently possible to have a great vacation without ever visiting the walking street or the seedy sois. Many people do just that and guess what - because they do, you have never seen them and presume that they do not exist.

There is a large, reasonably well patronised bar and sex scene - let there be little doubt. However, there really are loads of places frequented by loads of people who are not interested in the wares of go-go and girlie bars, they are just entertaining drinkinging venues. Plenty of people go to bars to drink and play pool or whatever, then quietly go home, have a sleep and hit the beach (or whatever) the next day. They are indistinguishable for the sex-punters, until they leave alone. Most people leave bars and go-go places alone. While it may look like a candy store, not everyone has a sweet tooth.

As for money and corruption and crime following the money, sure. And there are some low-lifes around Pattaya and the bar scene. They are however a very small minority and of no real interest. The real crime is the organised stuff, begind the scenes. I am unconvinced that the Thai criminals are all that interested in the sex-trade, which is largely freelance girls. Not true for the eastern european girls, who seem to be on a short leash. I do not claim expertise on Pattaya specifics in this area.

The only violence I have personally observed was a young Thai guy who practised his kick boxing on his girlfriends head while his 6 mates watched. Broken bones, concussion etc. They all just laughed while the farangs looked on, horrified and unwilling to find out if all 7 were carrying firearms. The police phone line was unanswered, as was the tourist police line. The girl is lucky to be alive, if indeed she still is. Not related to corruption or sex I would say, looked like a domestic violence scene. Happens every day in every town in Thailand.

Oh, by the way, I do not think there is more crime in the places you mentioned. However, there certainly is more crime committed against tourists, because that is where the tourists are. I guess 99% of Thai crime is unreported in the wetsern language press, so I think your logic and conclusion is flawed due to minimal actual knowledge (1 trip to Pattaya and you are an expert).

You should brush up on some crime statistics. Google away.

[Chan mai roo crap]

Who's Kamnam Poh?

It's similar to Godfather in Mafia terms. I think it's Chinese Thai mafia.

FYI. Kamnan Poh is a man. Kamnan denotes his rank as the "headman" in a district. This particular person is called Khun Poh. He is reputedly the godfather of the "MAFIA" in Chonburi province and has been in deep sh*t with the law in recent times.

[DrDweeb]

Just to calrify the "rascist" issue here...

As I understand the underlying meaning from some of the posters here, I would like to clarify the word "rascist" some.

The human kind is roughly divided into 3 main branches:

1. The Caucasian, with roots from the European continent ("Farang" in thai language)
   
2. The Mongolian, which goes for east asian people plus eskimoes and native Americans (Indians)
   
3. The Negroid, which represent people with roots from Africa
   

For example...

/Ga-gai

From a biological point of view your are talking utter rubbish. Biology does not recognize the concept of human "race" there is one and only one human species, that of Homo Sapiens sapiens, which is not divided further. The definition of race is subjective, often unreliable, but always leading to prejudices.

Now there are mnany way of classiffying human beings, your use of anthropomorphic criteria is highly debatable because it does not take into account the diversity of peole within each group you mentionned. One could use blood type or more seriously genetic markers but still there owuld be exception.

But I am not going to lecture you on the subject. Do your homework, starting by The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen J. Gould. Accessible to the the lay audience.

[sandy]

Unfortunately, the meaning of the word "race" in etymological terms was more or less fixed way before science had the facts in place. The "scientific" explanation, and the "general usage" are somewhat at odds now. Even worse, is the fact that "racism" is the catch cry of the intellectually bankrupt appeaser and bleeding heart liberal whenever issues relating to culturally biased behaviour is discussed - making the word almost useless as a definition today. There is another thread somewhere discussing this a bit.

An example from Chambers:

race2: noun 1 any of the major divisions of humankind distinguished by a particular set of physical characteristics, such as size, hair type or skin colour. 2 a tribe, nation or similar group of people thought of as distinct from others. 3 (the human race) human beings as a group. 4 a group of animals or plants within a species, which have characteristics distinguishing them from other members of that species.

[LaoPo]

The highest number of visitors to Pattaya/Jomtien/Nakula area last year was apparently Russian. A casual observer will note that a large number of Russians bring their families with them -

You should brush up on some crime statistics. Google away.

I have no data on Russian tourists, visiting Pattaya area, but someone can find it, no doubt (too lazy for that... )

Russian tourists however are a minority in total numbers to Thailand although the numbers from 2005 to 2006 almost doubled (jan-oct)!

http://www2.tat.or.th/stat/download/1006/nat-1-10.xls

LaoPo

[just plain different]

Hmm.

I will leave the idea that golf courses are some ecological disatser aside - you clearly do not hav a clue about this.

Sadly, you are clueless on the topic, and it apparently never entered your head that clearing land to build golf courses (sometimes clearing forest), using pesticides, and diverting water that is sometimes sorely needed elsewhere (yes, Thailand suffers from drought) is damaging to the environment. Do a little research so you don't look painfully ignorant. You can add despoiling the environment for rich tourists to exploiting girls in the undesirability of Pattaya category (at least for those who are interested in Thailand as opposed to just exploiting it's resources, human, environmental, economic...)

http://www.american.edu/TED/asiagolf.htm

http://www.newint.org/issue263/chasing.htm

The highest number of visitors to Pattaya/Jomtien/Nakula area last year was apparently Russian. A casual observer will note that a large number of Russians bring their families with them - I suspect that the "sex-scene" is not their primary motivating factor.

Interesting, and suspicious. I'd like to see some statistics to back this. Seems a poor choice of destination to me, and apparently to other participants in this forum.

There is a large, reasonably well patronised bar and sex scene - let there be little doubt.

And with that comes the crime. Again, people want their cake and to eat it, too. But, in reality, prostitution is a sleazy business that does in fact exploit girls (even if some turn out to be ironclad exploiters themselves, and if others take up the trade willingly), and in such atmospheres when lowlifes congregate, there is increased violence and petty crime, just as their is the increased likelihood of fist fights in bars as opposed to libraries.

This doesn't change the fact that However, there really are loads of places frequented by loads of people who are not interested in the wares of go-go and girlie bars, they are just entertaining drinkinging venues.

Of course, just as there are plenty of things to do in Vegas besides gambling. But, in Vegas there is gambling, and in Pattaya there is the sex scene. Do you own a condo there or something. Here, read what the Wikipedia has to say on the topic, which, I guess, echoes my sense of reality and not yours:

Crime

Historically, Pattaya has had comparatively high levels of crime, sometimes attributed to organised crime in the sex industry. In addition, a string of apparently related murders, all western tourists, occurred around Pattaya in 1975, are now believed to have been committed by the Frenchman Charles Sobhraj.

In recent years, Pattaya has served as a hideaway for foreigners with connections to organized crime, and dozens have been murdered in gang-related disputes.[5]The authorities are also increasingly cracking down on paedophiles and a number of high profile arrests have been made in recent years, an announcement to this effect was made in 2004. In 1996, a six-member gang was arrested for repeatedly robbing tourists that had been drugged by prostitutes.

Visitors are more likely to encounter petty crime, usually limited to pickpocketing and confidence tricks, particularly in and around major tourist areas such as Jomtien and Pattaya Beaches. To help curb this problem, a special Tourist Police division has been established to aid foreign tourists (farang) who are victims of crime.

An aside, and a little off-tangent, but, some just aren't clear why there's so much prostitution in Thailand and places like Pattaya. It's NOT because Thais are genetically prone to prostitution and not only approve of it but love it, and love sexpats, rather, it's because of economically and otherwise more powerful countries infiltrating Thailand and requiring it:

attaya was simply a small fishing village until it was discovered as a beach resort by Bangkok residents in the 1960s. Soon thereafter, American servicemen from the U.S. Air Force base at U-Tapao in neighbouring Rayong province began using the area for "rest and recreation" (R&R), causing a huge boom in prostitution. When the Americans left following the end of the Vietnam War, the city fell into a crisis. However, modern mass tourism, particularly Sex tourism from Europe and America brought a new lease of life to Pattaya.

That's just f_____g reality. Don't blame me.

Oh, by the way, I do not think there is more crime in the places you mentioned.

You're in denial. See above quotes.

You should brush up on some crime statistics. Google away.

Google searches prove me right across the board. Do your own research before spouting. This isn't flipping brain surgery.

[just plain different]

Unfortunately, the meaning of the word "race" in etymological terms was more or less fixed way before science had the facts in place. The "scientific" explanation, and the "general usage" are somewhat at odds now. Even worse, is the fact that "racism" is the catch cry of the intellectually bankrupt appeaser and bleeding heart liberal whenever issues relating to culturally biased behaviour is discussed - making the word almost useless as a definition today. There is another thread somewhere discussing this a bit.

Yes, people do tend to throw around the "racist" term a lot, and a white person must be very careful not to make any generalizations about any group of non-whites, or even a non-white individual, for fear of being branded a "racist". However, racism is still alive and flourishing, and, unfortunately again, the ugliest racist and sexist remarks I've heard in the last decade came were issued by Farang in Thailand (about Thais). Speaking of labeling people, you have quite a proclivity for it yourself, with your "intellectually bankrupt appeaser" and "bleeding heart liberal" phrases. Quite often, however, charges of racism from the more liberal and intellectual members of society are dead on, and, traditionally, the anti-liberal bastion of conservativism harbors lingering racism and sexism that they are defensive about. Such is reality, a phenomenon you eschew in favor of your own self-serving simulacrum which undoubtedly places you firmly at the head of the totem. It all crumbles down eventually, and you might be best off climbing down now and seeing things closer to what they really are.

[undercover]

So the girls were inosent tourists, and they were shot by a very quick temperd Thai man.

[lannarebirth]

I've been to Pattaya precisely once, to see the teakwood castle (which WAS spectacular). The beach was surprisingly small and uninteresting, other than that the police towed a truck out of it. The area in general was uninspiring, on the dirty side, but with enough conspicuously large hotels to make one wonder why so many would choose Pattaya as their principle place to visit in Thailand. If there were no sex industry there, would people still flock there? So I was struck that the two Russian women would have a package tour with Pattaya as a destination at all.

Given that Pattaya's cheif attraction is available cheap sex, it doesn't seem out of the ordinary that there would also be a lot of crime in the area, or that foeign tourists would be targets of crime. Once, during Songkran, some Thai men who'd had a lot to drink expressed their real view about male tourists. They yelled at my and two guys I happened to be walking with: "You only here f__k girl". Not true in my case, however, if that is a general perception (not to mention some truth in it, especially in Pattaya), than that also may make tourist targets less sympathetic.

I guess people would like to have bad neighborhoods be safe for them to take advantage and exploit the spoils of radical and global economic inequality (attractive girls available for the night for peanuts), but, sleaze and crime go together.

I agree with Libya 115. 'You are making yourself look foolish' especially since you say you have only been here once.

Those girls were murdered at the bottom end of Jomtien not Pattaya, they were alone (not having sex with anyone) and all their belongings still intact.

It's a lot quieter there than Pattaya so if they were here to enjoy the profits from the sex industry it would stand to reason that they would have been in Pattaya showing off their assets to as many people as they could but they were not!

Not only that, it will surprise you to know that there are other things going on here in this city that does not involve sex, sleaze or crime! I would also say that the crime rate here is about the same as any other city.

I've lived here for many years now and have a totally different view to you but maybe that's because I'm female and am not looking for sex.

I never said the Russian girls were trying to turn tricks! I said I was surprised that they'd choose Pattaya as a main destination (because it seems to have so little to offer other than sex trade and bar venues). I'm not surprised that there are other things to do besides sex in places like Pattaya. But I'll ask YOU the same question and see if you can field it. What is the number 1,2 & 3 reasons tourists go to Pattaya? Be honest, and let's not pretend that the beaches there can compete with other beaches in Thailand. If you read my original post and not just the one misleadingly edited down by Libya, you'd know that I went to Pattaya to see the Teakwood Castle, but the small turnout there makes that a rare attraction that I think most who frequent Pattaya have never visited.

Se, let's get on the same page here. What I said was very simple. OK. Focus. Are you ready?

Areas with more prostitution, bar venues and nightlife activities are also going to have more shady characters (Thai and Farang) and incidents of crime. That's pretty obvious.

So, you might be joining Libya in the silly corner.

Cheers.

Activities

1. Learning to fly

2. Sailing

3. Snorkelling

4. Skydiving

5. Temples

6. Sightseeing

Need I go on. Stay in you own silly corner by yourself, or maybe I'll join you for even bothering to answer your stupid request.

I for one have never been to Pattaya, but have formed an opinion based on what I have heard or read about it, and its not good. Well it depends where you sit in regards to the whole bar scene and seedy nightlife.

I know theres probably a whole different world in Patters but its difficult to ignore the activities that go on after dark there.

Since you've never been there let me give you an idea. Did you ever see that lovely Christmastime movie "It's A Wonderful Life" starring Jimmy Stewart? Well, Pattaya is like what Bedford Falls would have been like had George Bailey never been born.

[jbhh]

Boy was the police lucky the ex-girlfriend of that guy called to tell them he did it... I guess they swiftly jumped onto their Harleys and picked him up.

IF there is anymore behind it, I'd just look who of his or his ex's family members (or his ex herself etc) buys anything expensive in the next couple of month... a little interrogation and the generous person is found. I think it's just a little PR "gag" of the new police boss, though...

At last... the question, whether it was the guy renting sunchairs at 5am or not, is answered

Edited March 4, 2007 by jbhh

[DrDweeb]

Hmm.

I will leave the idea that golf courses are some ecological disatser aside - you clearly do not hav a clue about this.

Sadly, you are clueless on the topic, and it apparently never entered your head that clearing land to build golf courses (sometimes clearing forest), using pesticides, and diverting water that is sometimes sorely needed elsewhere (yes, Thailand suffers from drought) is damaging to the environment. Do a little research so you don't look painfully ignorant. You can add despoiling the environment for rich tourists to exploiting girls in the undesirability of Pattaya category (at least for those who are interested in Thailand as opposed to just exploiting it's resources, human, environmental, economic...)

http://www.american.edu/TED/asiagolf.htm

http://www.newint.org/issue263/chasing.htm

The highest number of visitors to Pattaya/Jomtien/Nakula area last year was apparently Russian. A casual observer will note that a large number of Russians bring their families with them - I suspect that the "sex-scene" is not their primary motivating factor.

Interesting, and suspicious. I'd like to see some statistics to back this. Seems a poor choice of destination to me, and apparently to other participants in this forum.

There is a large, reasonably well patronised bar and sex scene - let there be little doubt.

And with that comes the crime. Again, people want their cake and to eat it, too. But, in reality, prostitution is a sleazy business that does in fact exploit girls (even if some turn out to be ironclad exploiters themselves, and if others take up the trade willingly), and in such atmospheres when lowlifes congregate, there is increased violence and petty crime, just as their is the increased likelihood of fist fights in bars as opposed to libraries.

This doesn't change the fact that However, there really are loads of places frequented by loads of people who are not interested in the wares of go-go and girlie bars, they are just entertaining drinkinging venues.

Of course, just as there are plenty of things to do in Vegas besides gambling. But, in Vegas there is gambling, and in Pattaya there is the sex scene. Do you own a condo there or something. Here, read what the Wikipedia has to say on the topic, which, I guess, echoes my sense of reality and not yours:

Crime

Historically, Pattaya has had comparatively high levels of crime, sometimes attributed to organised crime in the sex industry. In addition, a string of apparently related murders, all western tourists, occurred around Pattaya in 1975, are now believed to have been committed by the Frenchman Charles Sobhraj.

In recent years, Pattaya has served as a hideaway for foreigners with connections to organized crime, and dozens have been murdered in gang-related disputes.[5]The authorities are also increasingly cracking down on paedophiles and a number of high profile arrests have been made in recent years, an announcement to this effect was made in 2004. In 1996, a six-member gang was arrested for repeatedly robbing tourists that had been drugged by prostitutes.

Visitors are more likely to encounter petty crime, usually limited to pickpocketing and confidence tricks, particularly in and around major tourist areas such as Jomtien and Pattaya Beaches. To help curb this problem, a special Tourist Police division has been established to aid foreign tourists (farang) who are victims of crime.

An aside, and a little off-tangent, but, some just aren't clear why there's so much prostitution in Thailand and places like Pattaya. It's NOT because Thais are genetically prone to prostitution and not only approve of it but love it, and love sexpats, rather, it's because of economically and otherwise more powerful countries infiltrating Thailand and requiring it:

attaya was simply a small fishing village until it was discovered as a beach resort by Bangkok residents in the 1960s. Soon thereafter, American servicemen from the U.S. Air Force base at U-Tapao in neighbouring Rayong province began using the area for "rest and recreation" (R&R), causing a huge boom in prostitution. When the Americans left following the end of the Vietnam War, the city fell into a crisis. However, modern mass tourism, particularly Sex tourism from Europe and America brought a new lease of life to Pattaya.

That's just f_____g reality. Don't blame me.

Oh, by the way, I do not think there is more crime in the places you mentioned.

You're in denial. See above quotes.

You should brush up on some crime statistics. Google away.

Google searches prove me right across the board. Do your own research before spouting. This isn't flipping brain surgery.

I cannot bothered to quote block this.

A quote from http://www.american.edu/TED/asiagolf.htm

"The caddies are women and each golfer has three or four caddies - one to carry the clubs, one to tote an umbrella and another to lug a chair and water."

I played one ball behomd Taksin at Alpine (before the coup) and even his entourage had only 2 caddies per person, which is in itself pretty rare. Also, my regular caddies at 2 of the courses I play regularly are male, both with 10+ years experience. So much for the reliability of that document. This is a polemic and not worthy of further discussion. The other document correctly states "mostly female" but otherwise is full of inuendo and "bring down the rich" bias.

It is factually incorrect that all golfers are rich elitists, as any review of the memebrship of national golf unions would testify. This fallacy has been debunked so many times it is not worth commenting. That "rich elitists" also play golf is not the same thing.

--

"According to the Tourism Authority of Thailand, last year the number of Russian tourists totalled 31,575, a big jump from 19,841 in 2005. Russian arrivals last year accounted for 2.5 per cent of all 12 million visitors to Thailand. The growing popularity of Thailand for Russian travellers has encouraged Thai Airways to begin direct flights between Bangkok and Moscow." The Nation.

Mr. Chachawan Suphachayanon, the President of the Thai Hotels Association Eastern Seaboard Chapter, ...

said the Russian Mafia murders did not really concern tourists as the police had made arrests. He stated that the Russian tourist market was one of Pattaya’s largest. Pattaya Mail

You make the typical newbie mistake of assuming the that the many cynical individuals who populate this forum represent anything even remotely typical. I do not recognise the Pattaya they portray, and I am a regular guest in town. Also, quoting Wikpedia does not win any points with me by the way.

--

In reality, prostitution in Thailand is perhaps the least sleazy example of it on the globe - just my HO. Few people visit libraries for their vacations, though I did stop off at the Bodlian once. My best guess is that aside from the european prostitution rings, the organised crime and gang activity is concentrated in other areas (protection money, drugs etc.). Again, my guess.

--

Your idea that prostitution in Thailand is because of western influence is so far off base that I am amazed at your ignorance on the subject. While Thais are not "genetically" predisposed to it any more than any other group of humans does not alter the fact that (and I quote a random source).

"While the foreign aspect of prostitution in Thailand and the Philippines may garner the most attention and money, most of the customers, patronizing the cheapest establishments, are native: "[a]ccording to reliable surveys of sexual behaviour, every day at least 450,000 Thai men visit prostitutes"47 (emphasis mine). Thus, much of the impetus sustaining the incredible rate of prostitution in Thailand is cultural; "Thai men think it is their right to have cheap sex, ... and there are enough poor Thai women to make it possible."48 Prostitution in many cases has become integrated with initiation rights: "[f]or many Thai men, a trip to the neighborhood brothel is a rite of passage, a tradition passed from father to son."49 Certainly, prostitutes play a large part in forming the sexual identity of young Thai males; "a demonstration of heterosexual orientation by having sex with a female prostitute is an important rite of passage for some groups of Thai men."50 This is borne out by the available statistics: "tudies show that the majority of Thai men have their first sexual experience with a prostitute - the act is often a part of high school and university hazing rituals - and that 95% of all men over 21 have slept with a prostitute."51 In addition to rites of passage, the activity of visiting a whorehouse has become a social activity in many cases, "'Sex with prostitutes seems to be a way for men to enjoy each other's company,' notes Barbara Franklin of Care International, ... 'It is often part of a night out with friends who share food, drink and sometimes even sexual partners.'"52"

There are 000's to choose from that say the same thing.

---

I live on Phuket, when I live in Thailand, and yes I have a condo. Not that it is any of your f*ing business or has any relevance!

--

Using a half quote to alter context is generally regarded as poor form. The fact remains that very few tourists/foreigners are murdered by gunfire, yet Thailand is one of the world's top places for death by gunfire per capita. I illogically conclude from this that the firearms crimes were happenning somewhere other than the tourist destinations and against Thais. I then illogically assume that more or less the same crime distribution will be evident for other forms of crime.

--

[just plain different]

Hi Dweeb:

I hope you don't mind if I stick to the main points. Your irrelevant quote from one of the golf sites, and your equally irrelevant rejoinder (about rich elites), do not address the very real issues of cutting away forests to produce golf courses, using large quantities of pesticides on them, and using an overabundance of water. Instead of cherry-picking a quote that has nothing to do with our little disagreement on the fundamental nature of reality, tackle this one:

Developing a golf course entails the clearing of vegetation,

cutting forests and creating artificial landscapes, which lead to

land erosion and block the soilþs ability to retain water. Golf

courses need 3,000 cubic meters of water per day, which is enough

to meet the needs of 15,000 people. Golf courses also need large

quantities of pesticides, fertilizers and herbicides, which groups

such as Global Anti-Golf Movement say have caused health problems

among golfers, workers an nearby residents. Anita Pleumarom, a

Global Anti-Golf Movement Activist in Bangkok, said that golf

course developers in Thailand use a variety of dangerous

herbicides, including some containing toxic compounds found in

Agent Orange. She has spoken with many golf course workers who

have become sick with headaches and skin irritations as a result of

their working with these chemicals.

And you wrote:

the President of the Thai Hotels Association Eastern Seaboard Chapter, ...

said the Russian Mafia murders did not really concern tourists as the police had made arrests. He stated that the Russian tourist market was one of Pattaya’s largest.

One of Pattaya's largest, and THE largest are not the same thing. You said they were the largest.

You make the typical newbie mistake of assuming the that the many cynical individuals who populate this forum represent anything even remotely typical.

You make the mistake of labeling me a newbie. I've lived in Thailand for more than a year, and can even speak, read and write Thai.

Also, quoting Wikpedia does not win any points with me by the way.

Don't blame the messenger. The facts are clear. Pattaya has more violence than other provinces in Thailand because of the propensity of prostitution, and some of the unsavory types of individuals that run it and that it attracts.

In reality, prostitution in Thailand is perhaps the least sleazy example of it on the globe - just my HO.

Is this first hand knowlege? That would explain a thing or two or three or more. Now, I'm NOT saying you use those sorts of services, and I'm not insinuating it either. But, it kinda' seems like you might be incriminating yourself. Seems.

My best guess is that aside from the european prostitution rings, the organised crime and gang activity is concentrated in other areas (protection money, drugs etc.). Again, my guess.

So far your guesses have been off the mark. It also might not be much of a leap to think that "prostitution rings, organised crime, gang activity, protection money, and drugs" are all interrelated, or at least are finding fertile ground in Pattaya because of each other's presence.

Your idea that prostitution in Thailand is because of western influence is so far off base that I am amazed at your ignorance on the subject.

It is a very well documented fact that Thailand (like everywhere else, and particularly Third World countries) has always had prostitution, the problem increased enormously when American troups were stationed there, however. The void when the troups left was filled by opportunistic sex tourists. Do a little research. Lots of expats and particularly those that use the services of the brothels don't like to admit that the West is largely responsible for the massive scale of prostitution in Thailand, or that they are tacitly exploiting the underclass of a Third World Nation.

(and I quote a random source).

"While the foreign aspect of prostitution in Thailand and the Philippines may garner the most attention and money, most of the customers, patronizing the cheapest establishments, are native: "[a]ccording to reliable surveys of sexual behaviour, every day at least 450,000 Thai men visit prostitutes"47 (emphasis mine).

You're funny. Have a strong cup of coffee to clear the cobwebs out of your mind and FOCUS. I sais that the presence of the American troups stationed in Thialand during the Vietnam war caused an exponential growth in prostitution in Thailand. If you actually READ the article from which you quoted, you would have read THIS:

While the Japanese had fostered prostitution on a limited scale to serve their own needs, "the boom in Southeast Asia started with the U.S. presence in Vietnam. There were 20,000 prostitutes in Thailand in 1957; by 1964, after the United States established seven bases in the country, that number had skyrocketed to 400,000."5 It was this boom, and the resulting slack after the war that was taken up by tourism, that introduced prostitution as a large-scale business to the region.

http://www.links.net/vita/swat/course/prosthai.html

Now, are you willing to accept this statement from the same source you quoted from? To analyse your quote, it says that Thai men as a whole are taking advantage of the overabundance of prostitution created by Western presence. It clarifies in the cheaper establishments, because, naturally, MOST Thai men couldn't afford the bar fees that Westerners pay.

I live on Phuket, when I live in Thailand, and yes I have a condo. Not that it is any of your f*ing business or has any relevance!

Yeah, I wouldn't live in Phuket or vacation in Pattaya. Usually when I travel to other countries, or live in them, I want to experience the actual culture and not just something that's become overly tailored to the Western tourist. I find those sorts of places disapointing .But they're good for people who dont' want to deal with another culture or really being in another country. But, that's another issue.

I dont' understand why some people (not YOU, not accusing YOU personally) are so defensive about the prostitution in Thailand, the crime surrounding it, and the adverse affect as a whole it's having on Thailand. Why not just say, "That's the price and I'm happy to take advantage of it. Sure, American soldiers had everything to do with the boon in prostitution, but I don't give a hoot. I'm grateful it happened. And I'm glad there's a poor undercalss otherwise those girls wouldn't touch me with a ten food pole. Guy's gotta' live and take a slice of pie when he can get one. Poo. poo."? At least that person would be being honest, instead of pretending that his money for girls is the only thing holding the country together. Again, I'm not talking about you, just some theoretical types.

Edited March 4, 2007 by just plain different

[DrDweeb]

The quotes got too complicated and would not post - so I waxed em all.

Last post on this, since we are way off topic:

I think I wrote "apparently". I did not bother to find the comparative figures. The point was that they respresent a large and growing segment who apparently choose to visit despite your opinion of the place.

--

Fact 1: Between 1990 and 2000, Thailand lost an average of 115,100 hectares of forest per year.

Fact 2: There are ca. 200 courses in Thailand, constructed since 1924 (Royal Hua Hin)

Fact 3: An 18 golf course usually requires ca. 35-60 Hectares.

I will let you do the math !

Claiming that Golf courses are a deforestation issue, is like claiming that Texans eating red bean chilli are a greenhouse gas issue.

Golf is an easy target - we are used to it.

--

I recall that you claimed to have visited Pattaya once - was I mistaken? A newbie in that sense seems appropriate.

--

Fact 4: Wikpedia != fact.

Please quote me a real source that says Pattaya (or did you mean Chon Buri) has higher violence rates - generally - than other provinces. I am always interested in any credible information.

--

I have visited a few hel_l-holes. The "folly of youth" is to discount the future heavily, subsequently young people indulge in behaviour that older individuals deem unwise. Is your claim that your only brush with prostitution was in Pattaya and that because I make a comparative claim, you infer that I am some sort of expert on the subject?. Making a comparative observation requires an experience level of greater than 1. Your damnation of me requires that your experience level is 1 or less, otherwise you are in the same category as me (ie. damned). Pattaya is your 1 experience then?

But obviously never walked down 42nd street before they cleaned it up or drank a beer on the Reeperbahn, or ... Both of these venues are spitting distance very well populated tourist destinations and are/were easy to visit. Too seriously sleezy places. Your travel venues are your own choice, just don't assume you have seen it all, or that those who might have experienced more are somehow less worthy.

--

So let us take for a given that it's all western influence that prostitution grew in Thailand (it always existed). Lots of things have grown large in Thailand consistent with lots of other activities. The "it's all our fault we have corrupted the pure innocent tribal peoples blah blah blah" cry is a common thread in a large part of academia since the mid 60's. With luck, this intellectual cultural self flagellation might be replaced sometime in our lifetimes with something more rational - but I digress.

Anyhow, so repressed Thai men now have a better opportunity to get laid that they did not have before and apparently it's all America's fault. Yawn ...

Before you jump down my throat I will add the obligatory disclaimer on this subject. I in no way support or condone the trafficking of women and children that is a small part of this particular aspect of thailand. I do not have problems with adults choosing to do whatever they agree with each other - in Thailand or anywhere else.

--

Aha, a cultural bigot.

Phuket is way way bigger than Patong and Bangala Rd., just as Pattaya is more than the Walking street and seedy sois nearby.

The last part of your post is just crap. Don't visit New York, 42nd st and the Bronx exist, Don't visit Germany, they have FKK clubs, don't visit Holland, you can smoke dope legally, etc.

ps: If you learned to speak and write Thai in 1 year, I am impressed!!

[Virgil]

Mr. Anuchit was apprehended by police on Thursday and initially confessed to police that he had murdered the Russian women, Tatiana Tsimfer, 30, and Liubov Svirkova, 25, after they resisted being robbed.

The two were found shot dead in their deckchairs in the eastern resort of Jomtien early on the morning of February 24.

Really? They were resisting the robbery from their deck chairs? So ... two girls sitting in deck chairs, probably in bikinis and wearing sunglassess, possibly listing to their walkmans while drinking a beer fought with the thief to such a degree that he had to shoot them both dead .... while they were still laying out in their deck chairs .... hmmm .... Officer? That's the dumbest thing I've heard since the coup!

Virgil, Out!

[just plain different]

Hi DrDweeb:

Claiming that Golf courses are a deforestation issue, is like claiming that Texans eating red bean chilli are a greenhouse gas issue.

Golf is an easy target - we are used to it.

Not really. You seemed completely unaware of the negative consequences to the environment, and your analogy is completely bogus. Anyone can make a bogus analogy: "Saying nuclear war would wipe out millions is like saying sneezing causes hurricanes".

Fact 4: Wikpedia != fact.

Please quote me a real source that says Pattaya (or did you mean Chon Buri) has higher violence rates - generally - than other provinces. I am always interested in any credible information.

Well, it's only credible to you if you agree with it. What is your problem with Wikipedia? Anything you don't agree with you will simply call "not credible". You bring up anything to support your self-serving delusions.

Is your claim that your only brush with prostitution was in Pattaya and that because I make a comparative claim, you infer that I am some sort of expert on the subject? Your damnation of me requires that your experience level is 1 or less, otherwise you are in the same category as me (ie. damned). Pattaya is your 1 experience then?

Never said any such thing, but YOU claimed that Thailand's prostitution was the least offensive in the world, which would make YOU somewhat of an expert, unless you were just making up stuff again.

Never interracted with any prostitutes in Pattaya, and didn't "d a m n" you. Just mentioned that you seemed to have implicated yourself as an expert on brothels of the world. If you consider that you inadvertently "damned" youself, that's your own moralizing.

Your travel venues are your own choice, just don't assume you have seen it all, or that those who might have experienced more are somehow less worthy.

Depends on what you mean by "have seen more." I'll grant you've seen more golf courses. But you seem to have less of a handle on reality, which means "seeing less" when it comes to the big picture.

-

The "it's all our fault we have corrupted the pure innocent tribal peoples blah blah blah" cry is a common thread in a large part of academia since the mid 60's. With luck, this intellectual cultural self flagellation might be replaced sometime in our lifetimes with something more rational - but I digress.

Find someone who believes that and deliver your lecture to him or her. Thais, Burmese, Cambodians and other S.E. Asians have historically perpetuated extraordinary atrocities on each other. Vlad the Impaler would be impressed. However, one must still "rationally" face that Western culture has also commited atrocities, and we ARE largely responsible for the proliferation of prostitution in Thailand in the later 20th century.

Anyhow, so repressed Thai men now have a better opportunity to get laid that they did not have before and apparently it's all America's fault. Yawn ...

The truth isn't always entertaining. It's just what it is, as much as you might try to resist it.

Before you jump down my throat I will add the obligatory disclaimer on this subject. I in no way support or condone the trafficking of women and children that is a small part of this particular aspect of thailand. I do not have problems with adults choosing to do whatever they agree with each other - in Thailand or anywhere else.

I never condemned you for using prostitutes. Never said you did. Didn't even assume it. You're awfully defensive on the subject, but, that could be purely academic. I will note that your idea of prostitution as an agreement between "consenting adults" is really sugar-coating a starker and much more complicated reality in which terms like "adult" and "consenting" or "agreeing" are all very fluid and possibly misleading.

Aha, a cultural bigot.

Phuket is way way bigger than Patong and Bangala Rd., just as Pattaya is more than the Walking street and seedy sois nearby.

Which has bigger golf courses? Your choices just show what your priorities are, and they aren't the culture.

The last part of your post is just crap. Don't visit New York, 42nd st and the Bronx exist, Don't visit Germany, they have FKK clubs, don't visit Holland, you can smoke dope legally, etc.

Lived in NY for a big chunk of my life. Also been to the Netherlands and smoked pot in the bars… You keep trying to pin me as moralizing when I'm just stating the blindingly obvious. All I said is that there's a connection between crime and areas with rampant prostitution and bar venues. Don't know why you can't handle that. Seems like a guilt thing. for some reason you need to try and paint me as moralizing or condemning you simply because I stated an obvious fact. I"m still surprised that there are so many guys in Thailand who can't face some simple historical and sociological facts. It's like if I were to mention that drug smugglers were killed on site in the Golden Triangle, and someone was to up and say I'm condemning them for doing drugs.

Well, it actually sounds not like i'm moralizing, but like you are avoiding anything like a moral perspective for fear of certain uncomfortable truths, because you don't want to feel immoral. I say just continue as you are and live with those truths. Golf, but don't try to deny that the golf courses are having a negative impact on the environment. Be a man and chose to golf anyway. And, for the sex tourists, of course they are opportunistically taking advantage of economic disparity. That's just a fact and not a moral stance. You're not going to have attractive young women for peanuts unless there's something like an underclass in a Third World Country to supply them. So? People can admit it and go on, like people smoke knowing it's f'ing up their lungs. Why lie to one's self about it?

ps: If you learned to speak and write Thai in 1 year, I am impressed!!

Took about 3. Lived in Thailand for a year, but had travelled there before and studied the language over several years. Puut paasaa Thai dai, dta, donee, rian paasaa jiin prawaa muang Thai mii Farang mai di leui gern bpai (excuse my transliteration, I don't really use it). Take my advice, don't bother with the reading and writing. More effort than it's worth.

Edited March 5, 2007 by just plain different

[Virgil]

I for one would let the ruskies, pakies and the other low life farang down there keep their little gang wars going and eventually wipe each other out -- just let the tourists know not to trust anything that is offered to them from local non thais -- but then again there are a lot of dodgy thais who frequent tourists sites as well -- if the local police chief does not do his job as deemed but the powers that be - oh well =- give him an advisory post at police HQ in Bkk - normal practice

yeah, let all poor lowlife aussies, uk, us, eu backpackers go out thailand to clean out the police reports and let LOS charge million bahts to living here - will no any rasist posters like at quoted text. Never say for all race - keep in your minds what you speak about some persons only!

What unpleasant individuals you are!!!! If you don't like the races here don't stay. Go back to where you come from. I doubt anyone would miss you or is it that your own home countries don't want you either.

At the end of the day all life is important no matter where you come from and these two girls have a right, even in death, to have the murderer found and punished.

I hope I'm not sharing my beer with any of you guys ....

Virgil, Out!

[jetjock]

BANGKOK POST March 5, 2007

Today's Top Stories

Two more held for murder of Russians

By Jerdsak saengthongcharoen

Police have arrested two more suspects in connection with the murder of two Russian women in Pattaya city, Chon Buri, and are investigating whether the men were members of any transnational criminal organisation.

According to Pattaya police chief Suthin Sappuang, police yesterday arrested Monthol Boonmee, 30, and Tinakorn Meeklee, 21.

Both are residents of Bang Lamung district of the eastern province.

Monthol is the owner of the motorcycle that Anuchit Lamlert, the 24-year-old suspected gunman, used to approach Tatiana Tsimfer, 30, and Liubov Svirkova, 25, on Jomtien beach where he killed them on Feb 24. Tinakorn is suspected of hiding Anuchit's pistol after the killing.

Police plan to charge Monthol and Tinakorn for abetting the crime because they were well aware of Anuchit's robbery record and plans. Pol Col Suthin said that it was still not clear who had masterminded the murders.

Pol Lt-Gen Asawin Khwanmuang, chief of Provincial Police Bureau 2 that supervises the East, said that police were checking the backgrounds of the murder victims who came from Moscow.

He said police were fed a lot of information through the Russian consulate in Thailand, and a Russian witness had said that one of the murdered women had had a conflict with her husband before she left for her relaxation trip to Thailand.

However, Anuchit, who was arrested on Thursday, said during a re-enactment of the crime yesterday that he had acted alone.

He said he only wanted to rob them but as they had seen his face while he was approaching them, he decided to kill them and flee without taking any of their belongings.

[Virgil]

I for one would let the ruskies, pakies and the other low life farang down there keep their little gang wars going and eventually wipe each other out -- just let the tourists know not to trust anything that is offered to them from local non thais -- but then again there are a lot of dodgy thais who frequent tourists sites as well -- if the local police chief does not do his job as deemed but the powers that be - oh well =- give him an advisory post at police HQ in Bkk - normal practice

yeah, let all poor lowlife aussies, uk, us, eu backpackers go out thailand to clean out the police reports and let LOS charge million bahts to living here - will no any rasist posters like at quoted text. Never say for all race - keep in your minds what you speak about some persons only!

What unpleasant individuals you are!!!! If you don't like the races here don't stay. Go back to where you come from. I doubt anyone would miss you or is it that your own home countries don't want you either.

At the end of the day all life is important no matter where you come from and these two girls have a right, even in death, to have the murderer found and punished.

I hope I'm not sharing my beer with any of you guys ....

Virgil, Out!

[DrDweeb]

BANGKOK POST March 5, 2007

Today's Top Stories

Two more held for murder of Russians

By Jerdsak saengthongcharoen

Police have arrested two more suspects in connection with the murder of two Russian women in Pattaya city, Chon Buri, and are investigating whether the men were members of any transnational criminal organisation.

According to Pattaya police chief Suthin Sappuang, police yesterday arrested Monthol Boonmee, 30, and Tinakorn Meeklee, 21.

Both are residents of Bang Lamung district of the eastern province.

Monthol is the owner of the motorcycle that Anuchit Lamlert, the 24-year-old suspected gunman, used to approach Tatiana Tsimfer, 30, and Liubov Svirkova, 25, on Jomtien beach where he killed them on Feb 24. Tinakorn is suspected of hiding Anuchit's pistol after the killing.

Police plan to charge Monthol and Tinakorn for abetting the crime because they were well aware of Anuchit's robbery record and plans. Pol Col Suthin said that it was still not clear who had masterminded the murders.

Pol Lt-Gen Asawin Khwanmuang, chief of Provincial Police Bureau 2 that supervises the East, said that police were checking the backgrounds of the murder victims who came from Moscow.

He said police were fed a lot of information through the Russian consulate in Thailand, and a Russian witness had said that one of the murdered women had had a conflict with her husband before she left for her relaxation trip to Thailand.

However, Anuchit, who was arrested on Thursday, said during a re-enactment of the crime yesterday that he had acted alone.

He said he only wanted to rob them but as they had seen his face while he was approaching them, he decided to kill them and flee without taking any of their belongings.

The plot thickens, as DI Plod's men close in on the villians.

[DrDweeb]

Hi DrDweeb:

Not really. You seemed completely unaware of the negative consequences to the environment, and your analogy is completely bogus. Anyone can make a bogus analogy: "Saying nuclear war would wipe out millions is like saying sneezing causes hurricanes".

Did you bother to do the arithmetic? ca. 1,150,000 over 10yrs vs ca. 20,000 over 80 years.

Did you even understand the analogy?

Well, it's only credible to you if you agree with it. What is your problem with Wikipedia? Anything you don't agree with you will simply call "not credible". You bring up anything to support your self-serving delusions.

Wikpedia, while a useful source of background material, is hardly an authoritative source. My question stands unanswered.

Never said any such thing, but YOU claimed that Thailand's prostitution was the least offensive in the world, which would make YOU somewhat of an expert, unless you were just making up stuff again.

Never interracted with any prostitutes in Pattaya, and didn't "d a m n" you. Just mentioned that you seemed to have implicated yourself as an expert on brothels of the world. If you consider that you inadvertently "damned" youself, that's your own moralizing.

Well, you commentary was clear enough. To intimate something directly, and claim not to have done so in the next sentence and to follow it up, seems, well, an intent to da mn and I take it as such.

Depends on what you mean by "have seen more." I'll grant you've seen more golf courses. But you seem to have less of a handle on reality, which means "seeing less" when it comes to the big picture.

I may have seen more than you imagine.

Find someone who believes that and deliver your lecture to him or her. Thais, Burmese, Cambodians and other S.E. Asians have historically perpetuated extraordinary atrocities on each other. Vlad the Impaler would be impressed. However, one must still "rationally" face that Western culture has also commited atrocities, and we ARE largely responsible for the proliferation of prostitution in Thailand in the later 20th century.

There is no limit to human barbarity - on this we can agree. I remain unconvinced of the cause effect. Latent demand and all that jazz.

I never condemned you for using prostitutes. Never said you did. Didn't even assume it. You're awfully defensive on the subject, but, that could be purely academic. I will note that your idea of prostitution as an agreement between "consenting adults" is really sugar-coating a starker and much more complicated reality in which terms like "adult" and "consenting" or "agreeing" are all very fluid and possibly misleading.

Well, it is a touchy subject here, so premptive disclaimers are called for. You directly implied intimate knowledge on my part, despite your reverse claim in the same paragraph. "Adult" and "consenting" have legal meanings. They are niether misleading or fluid.

Which has bigger golf courses? Your choices just show what your priorities are, and they aren't the culture.

Another barb at the golfer. Can't resist can you? Golf courses are not rated by size. You really are a cultural elitist and it just oozes out of your posts. Are you more a cultural elitist or a tree hugger - I am uncertain?

Lived in NY for a big chunk of my life. Also been to the Netherlands and smoked pot in the bars… You keep trying to pin me as moralizing when I'm just stating the blindingly obvious. All I said is that there's a connection between crime and areas with rampant prostitution and bar venues. Don't know why you can't handle that. Seems like a guilt thing. for some reason you need to try and paint me as moralizing or condemning you simply because I stated an obvious fact. I"m still surprised that there are so many guys in Thailand who can't face some simple historical and sociological facts. It's like if I were to mention that drug smugglers were killed on site in the Golden Triangle, and someone was to up and say I'm condemning them for doing drugs.

No one, nor I deny the connection. It is the conclusions you draw that are problematic.. It is doubtful prostitution per se is the primary factor in Pattaya. For crime to flourish in the prostitution market, certain preconditions need to exist, few of which are present in Pattaya, at least on the Thai side of things. In the secondary activities, sure, plenty of scope there and plenty of action too.

Well, it actually sounds not like i'm moralizing, but like you are avoiding anything like a moral perspective for fear of certain uncomfortable truths, because you don't want to feel immoral. I say just continue as you are and live with those truths. Golf, but don't try to deny that the golf courses are having a negative impact on the environment. Be a man and chose to golf anyway. And, for the sex tourists, of course they are opportunistically taking advantage of economic disparity. That's just a fact and not a moral stance. You're not going to have attractive young women for peanuts unless there's something like an underclass in a Third World Country to supply them.

If that were true, are all prostitutes in affluent 1st world countries with fabulous government funded social networks and education systems etc. etc. etc. ugly?

<deleted>, another shot at the golfers, you really do hate us. The problem with your thesis is that it is trivial, and like most people with no concept of numbers, you latch on to a triviality that may be objectively true in some micro sense, and elevate it to a fundamental issue. Golf courses in Thailand are not a problem, my anology about Texan flatulence (obviously lost on you) was close to the mark.

Man you sound like the Californian preppies I had to endure way back. Barrfff. So many moral judgements and positions in one paragraph - too late to be bothered replying now.

Took about 3. Lived in Thailand for a year, but had travelled there before and studied the language over several years. Puut paasaa Thai dai, dta, donee, rian paasaa jiin prawaa muang Thai mii Farang mai di leui gern bpai (excuse my transliteration, I don't really use it). Take my advice, don't bother with the reading and writing. More effort than it's worth.

Someone else said that to me that (about the reading and writing), so thats 2 and 0.

That really was my last post.

I am actually more interested to see how the murder case pans out.

[loong]

An aside, and a little off-tangent, but, some just aren't clear why there's so much prostitution in Thailand and places like Pattaya. It's NOT because Thais are genetically prone to prostitution and not only approve of it but love it, and love sexpats, rather, it's because of economically and otherwise more powerful countries infiltrating Thailand and requiring it:

Your idea that prostitution in Thailand is because of western influence is so far off base that I am amazed at your ignorance on the subject.

It is a very well documented fact that Thailand (like everywhere else, and particularly Third World countries) has always had prostitution, the problem increased enormously when American troups were stationed there, however. The void when the troups left was filled by opportunistic sex tourists. Do a little research. Lots of expats and particularly those that use the services of the brothels don't like to admit that the West is largely responsible for the massive scale of prostitution in Thailand, or that they are tacitly exploiting the underclass of a Third World Nation

Many of the observations in this link that you have referred to....

http://www.links.net/vita/swat/course/prosthai.html

I agree with, but definitely not everything.

20,000 prostitutes in 1957, growing to 400,000 in 1964 because of the USA bases???? No, more likely migration of existing prostitutes because of higher pay.

There is no census that asks the question " Do you work as a prostitute?" So any figures can only be estimated with no basis in fact. Remember "Prostitution is against the law, so it doesn't exist"!

The "Mia Noi" or minor wife is very much a part of Thai culture and a Mia Noi is a prostitute.

It does annoy me when people blame the existence of prostitution on western influence.

The fact is that it is western society that has a problem with prostitution, most of the Thais do not. It's all a case of attitude. Many Thai men will quite happily allow their wife to sell her body to other men, but if she had sex with another for free, it would be another matter!

Of course underage trafficking is despicable and all involved should be stamped on like the bugs they are.

Most of the girls that I speak to see absolutely nothing wrong in selling their bodies, it's easy money and can give their families a better life. They can get more money than from a Tourist than a Thai man and a Farang is more likely to use a condom without fuss or violence.

A few do not enjoy the life and feel that they have been forced into it by economic pressures and/or their family. They will often not go with customers unless they genuinely feel attracted to them. These girls are searching for a husband to take care of them. It is disgusting that so many of the bars etc pay such low wages, that many girls have to go with customers to survive.

Anyway back to "Attitude". When I was a young man, my mind was constantly concentrated on sex. If I could have had all the sex that I wanted and get paid for it, I would have thought that I was in heaven. If I had been a girl, I would be condemned for thinking like this. Society tries to force it's values on us and , right or wrong, we tend to go along with it. Thais do not think the same way as westerners.

No need to say more.

Where the sex scene is underground and up side alleys, yes it goes hand in hand with the criminal elements. Here in Pattaya is mostly in the open. Crime is here because of the richer pickings, but I still believe that it does not affect the tourists too much (although definitely more so in the last few years)

There have been 2 shootings in the Karaoke bars near me in recent months. This is where the Thai girls go and hire Thai male prostitutes. Very much behind closed doors. This is Thai- Thai and does not affect the tourists.

It is a very well documented fact that Thailand (like everywhere else, and particularly Third World countries) has always had prostitution, the problem increased enormously when American troups were stationed there.........................

Is it a problem? or just westerners superimposing their attitudes?

[just plain different]

Hello DrDweeb:

Your unfounded asssertions aside, golf courses are a problem in Thailand and elsewhere. I'm not saying don't golf. I'm just saying don't deny the underlying reality. Here's more on the topic:

Over the last decade, golf has acquired the status of a four-letter word because of the havoc it has wrought across the globe. These ravages have been most manifest in Asia, and especially in South-East Asia, which has experienced some of the most concentrated golf development as a result of state policy.

The so-called “green game” has made millions of people across the world see red because of the excesses and illegalities associated with golf course development. These include: issues relating to illegal and sometimes forcible acquisition of land

required to build deluxe resorts and golf courses, the displacement of traditional and/or marginalized communities from their ancestral land, deforestation, destruction/ alteration of environment and ecological life systems, use of (harmful) pesticides to keep courses green and pest-free, contamination of soil and neighbouring water systems due to heavy use of pesticides, and the consumption of large amounts of water at the cost of the public.

I"ll just ignore the name calling and other goofy stuff. As for the connection between prostitution areas and crime, the connection has already been established. The best you could hope for is to say that prostitution flourishes where there is already crime and is not the source itself of the crime. However, it's a delicate issue in that prostitution is itself a crime in much of the Western world, and issues such as "adult" and "consent" alter when, for example, a consenting girl is 18 but became a prostitute at 16, and that man is 55. Some "legal" designations might be a comfort, but, reality isn't that simple and there's plenty of legal crime, as you well know. If someone is compelled to do something becasuse of economic circumstances, it's not quite the same thing as two office workers shagging after hours.

As to your other garble about prostitutes in fabulous utopias, I ask you this: How many of your friends, classmates, and close peers have become prostitutes? If you can't think of a half dozen it's because you don't come from the economic class or circumstances that they do. Economic disparity in the underlying necessity of prostitution.

Thanks.

Edited March 5, 2007 by just plain different

[just plain different]

Is it a problem? or just westerners superimposing their attitudes?

Thais think it's a problem and they're not Westerners. You should have heard my Thai instructor going off on prostitution in Thailand. It's not a problem for the sexpat or sex tourist, obviously = it's the solution to a problem.

But, as I said in another post, prostitution as an institution requires economic disparity. Young lovelies don't grow up wanting to become prostitutes any more than that would be YOUR dream if you were a girl. Economic hardship may compell them into it (if worse methods haven't been used), or they may choose it because the general economy is so poor that it guarantees a radical improvement in lifestyle.

As I asked another poster, how many of your friends. classmates, coworkers, and peers have become prostitutes? If you can't name more than a half dozen, you are likely from a more privileged background than the average prostitute.

So, what's the "problem"? Radical economic disparity. Imagine now that a good portion, say 15-20% of the girls you grew up with became prostitutes. Now you might see a problem. OK, imagine you'd become one. Any problem. No. OK.

[Prakanong]

"How about some congratulations to these police, who it seems have taken swift action. Why this cynicism all the time? "

Exactly. If a suspect isn't arrested within 24 hours, lots of TVers complain that the police are lazy. When a suspect is arrested, the same people complain that the suspect didn't commit the crime. Too, for some reason many middle-aged white guys are fascinated by prostitutes, and TVers are no different. No matter what happens, they believe that the women were asking for it.

Months ago, a farang couple were killed, and TVers couldn't fathom that a suspect wasn't found the same day. Several days later, two fisherman confessed, and a block of TVers claimed to have intimate knowledge that the fisherman were innocent, and that the police had paid their families lots of money to secure the confessions. When the fishermen escaped the death penalty, those that originally claimed that the fishermen were innocent, not bemoaned the fact that they weren't going to get executed.

It was not a farang couple that the two fisherman were convicted of killing - it was a one farang Female killed on Samui, Katherine Horton. She was attacked as she wished her mother Happy New Year on the phone.

The farang couple you may be trhinking about were killed by a policeman in Kanchanaburi

[just plain different]

Just to comment on this bit:

Anyway back to "Attitude". When I was a young man, my mind was constantly concentrated on sex. If I could have had all the sex that I wanted and get paid for it, I would have thought that I was in heaven. If I had been a girl, I would be condemned for thinking like this. Society tries to force it's values on us and , right or wrong, we tend to go along with it. Thais do not think the same way as westerners.

No need to say more.

I appreciate your honesty, but, as that sex-obsessed young man, did you have no standards? Would you have wanted to have sex with your Mom's friends, or your grandmother's? Or how about the lady from the cateteria with the distended lower abdomen, or the chain-smoking alcoholic neighbor, the librarian with the hairy chest, the mail lady with the deformed arm…? Unless you had little or no standards you wouldn't have likely been paid for sex. There has to be a disparity such that one wants to have sex with someone who, if not for circumstances in which payment made the prospect attractive, one generally couldn't.

Have you seen some of the couples walking around in Thailand? Yeah. Some of those guys are pretty bad looking all around, and have personalities to match. Do you think if you were young, attractive Thai girl you'd be hankering after Jurgen and Bruce and various loser accountants with a bonus to spend?

Have you talked to Thai girls who aren't prostitutes about the situation? As I said, my Thai teacher was pretty disgusted with the whole thing. And, while, as you point out, "Thais do not think the same way as Westerners," if you talked to them you'd find out that a lot of them are disgusted with the prevelence of prostitution and foreigners coming to Thailand to have sex with the girls. Of course, the bar girls themselves aren't going to say THAT to their customers.

I mentioned before some Thai boys yelling at me and a couple guys I was walking with: "You come Thailand only f___k Thai girl." What seems different is that Thais, unless drunk, may not come right out and tell you what they really think.

Let's not confuse their underlying Buddhist upbringing, in which one doesn't disturb the surface tranquility, with not possibly seething underneath if they allow it to get to them at all.

[loong]

Is it a problem? or just westerners superimposing their attitudes?

Thais think it's a problem and they're not Westerners. You should have heard my Thai instructor going off on prostitution in Thailand. It's not a problem for the sexpat or sex tourist, obviously = it's the solution to a problem.

But, as I said in another post, prostitution as an institution requires economic disparity. Young lovelies don't grow up wanting to become prostitutes any more than that would be YOUR dream if you were a girl. Economic hardship may compell them into it (if worse methods haven't been used), or they may choose it because the general economy is so poor that it guarantees a radical improvement in lifestyle.

As I asked another poster, how many of your friends. classmates, coworkers, and peers have become prostitutes? If you can't name more than a half dozen, you are likely from a more privileged background than the average prostitute.

So, what's the "problem"? Radical economic disparity. Imagine now that a good portion, say 15-20% of the girls you grew up with became prostitutes. Now you might see a problem. OK, imagine you'd become one. Any problem. No. OK.

My niece worked her way through university by lap dancing in the Uk. Some of my friends worked as strippers for a while. Reason - easy money compared with other work. There may be many others that have worked in the sex industry, but not all would admit it because our western values compel us to consider such work as something shameful.

If you knew anything about the average village Thai, you would realise that they cannot believe that by lying on their back, they can have a nice house, car etc. They do not see a connection between sex for money and sex for love. To most they are 2 different things.

A girl in the village where I used to live is 17 years old. She has a boyfriend a few years older than her. She is also the Mia Noi of a 45 year old Thai local government official. He is paying for her schooling and gives her gifts, mobile phone etc and an allowance. Her boyfriend is not entirely happy, but he is poor and cannot help her, so he accepts the situation. Initially I was shocked, but after talking with her, I realised that I was shocked because of my western values. She just didn't understand my viewpoint. To her it was a perfectly logical situation. She, and many others in her position are happy with their situation, so who are we to judge? No western influence forced her to make her decision, this is Thai culture, it's just a different attitude to most westerners'.

And incidentally, if I was a girl and could make good money laying on my back. Too right, I would do it!

Seven years of experiencing the varied delights of Thailand have changed my attitude towards many things. I don't expect everybody's opinions to match mine. Our's don't. My opinions have reformed after spending a lot of time in rural Thailand. Thais have a very open attitude to sex and will often discuss it over a meal.

It's a shame that more farangs can't shake themselves free of the western moral brainwashing.

[loong]

I see that you have added another post while I was writing this.

I suggest you start another thread on this subject as this one is being hijacked.

I know I'm right in what I say and you think you are right as well.

I can only write about what I have learnt by speaking to Thais.

EDIT............and yes, I DID want to have sex with my mum's friends, didn't everyone?

Edited March 5, 2007 by loong

[Jimmyd]

EDIT............and yes, I DID want to have sex with my mum's friends, didn't everyone?

I didn't even *know* your mum's friends!

[just plain different]

My niece worked her way through university by lap dancing in the Uk. Some of my friends worked as strippers for a while. Reason - easy money compared with other work. There may be many others that have worked in the sex industry, but not all would admit it because our western values compel us to consider such work as something shameful.

You didn't say any were actually prostitutes. If so I wonder what their perspective on the topic would be.

If you knew anything about the average village Thai, you would realise that they cannot believe that by lying on their back, they can have a nice house, car etc.

They can't. They'll have to do more than lie on their backs, and they won't get a nice house and car out of it. Kinda' hard to be in Thailand as long as I was without knowing any of the working girls. They had cheap apartments and motorbikes.

They do not see a connection between sex for money and sex for love. To most they are 2 different things.

Depends who you talk to, I guess. The Thais I know, both in Thailand and in the West appreciate the difference. But they weren't poor village Thais. There may be a distinction between the poor and those relatively affluent.

A girl in the village where I used to live is 17 years old. She has a boyfriend a few years older than her. She is also the Mia Noi of a 45 year old Thai local government official. He is paying for her schooling and gives her gifts, mobile phone etc and an allowance. Her boyfriend is not entirely happy, but he is poor and cannot help her, so he accepts the situation. Initially I was shocked, but after talking with her, I realised that I was shocked because of my western values. She just didn't understand my viewpoint. To her it was a perfectly logical situation. She, and many others in her position are happy with their situation, so who are we to judge?

Often poor people seem happy in situations which we would consider unfortunate. I've seen laborers in Burma with big smiles on their faces. One doesn't have to judge to see it as the unenviable consequence of economic disparity. Would you want your girlfriend to be the "little wife" of a much older man? The Thai boy didn't like it, either. The girl benefits but if she and her boyfriend weren't poor she probably wouldn't have anything to do with the rich government official. You might find that poor girls in the West will often also come to logical acceptance of situations that better off people would find intolerable.

No western influence forced her to make her decision, this is Thai culture, it's just a different attitude to most westerners'.

Western girls have "sugar daddies" too. And, I saw a program on child prostitution in Cambodia in which everyone involved in a child prostitution ring seemed to accept it as natural, and the children were purported by the client (who didn't know he was being filmed) to be "as happy as his children at Christmas just to be chosen by him". He might argue that as regards sex with children, one should let go of one's Western brainwashing because the poor Cambodians accepted the situation and the children were happy to have him as their customers. Again, what poor, and especially younger poor people will accept does not mean that it's necessarily OK even for them.

I don't expect everybody's opinions to match mine. Our's don't. My opinions have reformed after spending a lot of time in rural Thailand. Thais have a very open attitude to sex and will often discuss it over a meal. It's a shame that more farangs can't shake themselves free of the western moral brainwashing.

Sure, there's a lot of moral brainwashing in the West, such as the "just say no" ANTI-sex education/safe-sex/abortion campaign in America. Some people have hang-ups about certain sexual activities, and so on… But even you would probably agree that sex with minors is out of the question. Or would you? So, then you are MORALIZING. The question then is where do you draw the line and when is your MORALIZING not brainwashing.

Besides, your idea that Westerners are brainwashed into moralizing about sex only applies to a relatively small sector of the population. Consider how large the porn industry is. If it weren't for STD's there'd probably still be a lot of "free love" and orgies such as were prevelant in the 60s. Sex is huge in the West. But you might mean a MORALIZING not about sex itself, which Westerners seem to have no problem with, and often discuss in detail (though more often among their own gender). Westerners MORALIZING problem isn't about the sex, so much as the exploitation, I gather. But even you would draw the line. It's just a question of where.

Edited March 5, 2007 by just plain different

[Donnyboy]

My niece worked her way through university by lap dancing in the Uk. Some of my friends worked as strippers for a while. Reason - easy money compared with other work. There may be many others that have worked in the sex industry, but not all would admit it because our western values compel us to consider such work as something shameful.

You didn't say any were actually prostitutes. If so I wonder what their perspective on the topic would be.

If you knew anything about the average village Thai, you would realise that they cannot believe that by lying on their back, they can have a nice house, car etc.

They can't. They'll have to do more than lie on their backs, and they won't get a nice house and car out of it. Kinda' hard to be in Thailand as long as I was without knowing any of the working girls. They had cheap apartments and motorbikes.

They do not see a connection between sex for money and sex for love. To most they are 2 different things.

Depends who you talk to, I guess. The Thais I know, both in Thailand and in the West appreciate the difference. But they weren't poor village Thais. There may be a distinction between the poor and those relatively affluent.

A girl in the village where I used to live is 17 years old. She has a boyfriend a few years older than her. She is also the Mia Noi of a 45 year old Thai local government official. He is paying for her schooling and gives her gifts, mobile phone etc and an allowance. Her boyfriend is not entirely happy, but he is poor and cannot help her, so he accepts the situation. Initially I was shocked, but after talking with her, I realised that I was shocked because of my western values. She just didn't understand my viewpoint. To her it was a perfectly logical situation. She, and many others in her position are happy with their situation, so who are we to judge?

Often poor people seem happy in situations which we would consider unfortunate. I've seen laborers in Burma with big smiles on their faces. One doesn't have to judge to see it as the unenviable consequence of economic disparity. Would you want your girlfriend to be the "little wife" of a much older man? The Thai boy didn't like it, either. The girl benefits but if she and her boyfriend weren't poor she probably wouldn't have anything to do with the rich government official. You might find that poor girls in the West will often also come to logical acceptance of situations that better off people would find intolerable.

No western influence forced her to make her decision, this is Thai culture, it's just a different attitude to most westerners'.

Western girls have "sugar daddies" too. And, I saw a program on child prostitution in Cambodia in which everyone involved in a child prostitution ring seemed to accept it as natural, and the children were purported by the client (who didn't know he was being filmed) to be "as happy as his children at Christmas just to be chosen by him". He might argue that as regards sex with children, one should let go of one's Western brainwashing because the poor Cambodians accepted the situation and the children were happy to have him as their customers. Again, what poor, and especially younger poor people will accept does not mean that it's necessarily OK even for them.

I don't expect everybody's opinions to match mine. Our's don't. My opinions have reformed after spending a lot of time in rural Thailand. Thais have a very open attitude to sex and will often discuss it over a meal. It's a shame that more farangs can't shake themselves free of the western moral brainwashing.

Sure, there's a lot of moral brainwashing in the West, such as the "just say no" ANTI-sex education/safe-sex/abortion campaign in America. Some people have hang-ups about certain sexual activities, and so on… But even you would probably agree that sex with minors is out of the question. Or would you? So, then you are MORALIZING. The question then is where do you draw the line and when is your MORALIZING not brainwashing.

Besides, your idea that Westerners are brainwashed into moralizing about sex only applies to a relatively small sector of the population. Consider how large the porn industry is. If it weren't for STD's there'd probably still be a lot of "free love" and orgies such as were prevelant in the 60s. Sex is huge in the West. But you might mean a MORALIZING not about sex itself, which Westerners seem to have no problem with, and often discuss in detail (though more often among their own gender). Westerners MORALIZING problem isn't about the sex, so much as the exploitation, I gather. But even you would draw the line. It's just a question of where.

will you guys kiss and make up or shall we organise a ring for you to slug it out